Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[Uriel]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Well, I think there is a relation between the percentages and the levels but different as you both stated and why I step aside in the discussion:
I think that if you're 100% Materialization means that when you are level 10 on training you'll be level 10 on Materialization (Obviously) but if you have level 10 on Transformation you'll be as a Transformation user in level 8.

...Sure, your school will be always on top but that doesn't mean it will be trained when you train another schools or using a system of conditions.

Because I do seriously believe that training is not something that strict and with rules and pledges you can obtain efficiency and mastery of something without all the square math involved. Reason why there are so many different techniques and not everyone is applying Kou to a punch.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I think the level system only exists to counter Kurapika's ability. If we see two fully developed user, Reinforcement versus Emission, and say Reinforcement used an Emission technique and it is weaker. You don't really have to know whether it's got 80% or 64% of the Emission user's power, just that it is weaker. Originally Kurapika's teacher told him his max aura fist (160) versus Reinforcement (200) results in him taking 40 damage. What is 40 damage? It's 'significant damage', but how significant is clearly open to interpretation and whatever the story currently needs at the moment.

You don't even need levels to explain the fact that Gon, who has rarely trained in Emission school, is a lot worse than his 80% might indicate. You can simply say that is inexperience.

But if you don't have levels, then that means Kurapika can do everything at 100% at the same time. Further, the Scarlet Eyes doesn't even depend on any particularly difficult condition (just have to be angry, can be activated with training). There's a somewhat serious side effect, but really collapsing after an extended period of battle is hardly limiting when you consider without the bonus it offers, you might just die. The story always considered him as on equal footing as the Spiders in base stats. If he can learn 100% of all schools, at some point he's going to just totally bulldoze anyone (not just Spiders) simply because he has so many options.

For the most part in HXH the schools away from Reinforcement are balanced by their lack of strength. Let's say you Materialize chains that paralyze on touch. Sounds pretty impressive, but do you really think Shalunark or Shizuku can withstand a hit from Big Bang? Probably not, so trying to swing a chain at someone who can kill you in one hit is still pretty dangerous. Note that in this case the Materialize user loses even if both hit each other at the same time, since they'd be dead while the Reinforcement user will just be incapaciated. But imagine if Ubogin can swing some chains that paralyze on touch. How are you supposed to stop him assuming you're only an equal no matter what school you are?

HXH also seems to imply that basic moves like Ken and Ko do not have a level. At least, there doesn't appear to be a concept of 'level 10 Ko', though we'd expect a Reinforcement user's Ko to be stronger because it's physical damage. Still, nobody of any significance in HXH has ever been defeated by basic moves, so the fact levels don't matter on basic moves is actually pretty irrelevent.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Well, the manga has indeed been ambiguous as to what learning and using a secondary nen type means. There are two points to consider as far as the implications of this:

1.- Learning curve. If the issue of nen types was simply a learning curve matter then in the long run it would be possible for anyone to attain 100% in reinforcement, transformation, emission, manipulation and conjuration. It would be a very long run thing but it would be possible.

2.- Inherent inability to acquire the techniques. This means that you have a limit to what you can accomplish with other nen types regardless of the amount of training you do. This would imply that regardless of your training you would not match up to someone who is of a particular nen type and mastered it. It would perhaps also imply an inherent waster of power when it comes to using other nen types regardless of how much you train. Perhaps even greater mental and physical strain when using other nen types.

The manga has never been clear as to which one is it but I would lean to believe that togashi meant for this to be ambiguous for the sake of story telling. For example, kastro would be an example of limitations when it comes to his conjuration. It apparently took him a long time to learn to conjure his double and would have had better results from his training if he had learned his real nen type. Gon's paper could be an example of either, a difference in the learning curve and a decrease in power from using other nen types. In that sense, you would get both. They other nen types are progressively harder to acquire and even if you do it won't be as good as you main nen type even if you put the time (unless the extreme case where you do not actually train your main nen type).

Then we get to reinforcement. How in the hell does this apply to reinforcement? Would a non enhancer using kou experience a similar result as gon using paper? Reinforcement consists of basic techniques for the most part so a difference in the learning curve would be strange. But that in turn would mean there is tangible decrease and waster of power when it comes to others using reinforcement. Then again, the manga has indeed been ambiguous as to what reinforcement is (perhaps too for the sake of storytelling) as saying "using nen to enhance natural abilities" is something that could be explained in many different ways (would the ken of a non-reinforcer be inherently weaker or would "using nen to enhance natural abilities" be something on top of the natural increase in strength and speed all nen users have?. Is reinforcement limited to kou? Kurapica was said by uvo to have the guard of a reinforcement user however we were never told if he used a particular technique.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Well, even if there is no inherent cap to learning, it is clear that you're capped by the amount of time you can expect to be alive, and actually it's less than that since we know Netero declined from his prime, so if you didn't learn something by the time your prime is over, it probably wouldn't do you any good, at least so far as making you a stronger fighter. Being out of your prime more than makes up any improvement in learning unless you somehow failed to learn anything useful during your prime.

When Kurapika was learning Materialize, his teacher told him that he has to concentrate on one thing because you can't easily start over. It's not clear if this means there's a fixed capacity (i.e. you can only learn to Materialize X things well), or that it'd take so long to Materalize even one thing well that it's completely out of the question to attempt to learn how to Materalize multiple distinct objects and expect them to be all useful. Though either way, there is a clear 'cap' to the variety of abilities you can learn.

 

[baboysai]

Re: General Nen Thread

clearly the world of Nen has so many possibilities. Togashi what a genius.

Just because of the Nen I reread the series from chapter 1 to remember everything, but I don't think I can retain all the information still.

I think this thread is helpful to keep active especially now with the election thing going on and as the manga said "new level of hunters have come to the scene".

The whole Nen of GI, for one, is TOTALLY COMPLICATED I don't even wanna start analyzing it and just accept it for what it is, lol.

Anyway, I am posting here about Nen and its relationship to age. Nen clearly is a double-edged sword depending on the conditions, but I think generally, like some martial arts if practiced religiously, Nen helps to keep one's youth?

Like Netero and Bisquit as examples of oldies that stand the test of time and I think this is not because of their particular abilities but because of the basic practice of Nen?

But, then, certain abilities with conditions shorten one's life. If I remember correctly, Kurapica's has this effect? Did Gon also have some incredible Nen that could shave off his life?

---------- Post added at 04:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

PS: what do you think Leorio's type and ability would be?

---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 PM ----------

and... any speculations on Ging's abilities and type? Would he strike you as reinforcement just like Gon?

 

[Riku]

Re: General Nen Thread

Well, I read somewhere Leorio is emission. Which makes sense, considering it is the opposite of Materialization (Kurapika, as it was said at point, opposite types work often as rivals/friends) and matches Hisokas description of the type (impatient, emotionally disturbed). Since he is a doctor, wouldn't be too suprised if his emitted nen would have some sort of healing or protective properties.

About Ging... I don't now. Based on Hisokas descriptions he would fit Special. Mysterious, charismatic. But only a fraction of people seemed to be sucked in by his charisma (Kaito, Satotsu, Boat Captain), and that wasn't necessarily charisma as much as admiration of ability and skill. Could also be manipulation - he certainly advances on his own pace. He also seems to be good with animals and beasts. The whole negotiation set-up made him seem a reasoner too, but also sneaky and able to lie. Not too stable a person either, considering he comes and goes how he wishes. So that would also fit Transformation. On the other hand, people say Gon has the same air around him as Ging, and Gon is Reinforcement. Really, impossible to say. If I'd have to guess, I'd place my bet manipulation or specialization, but wouldn't put much money on it.

 

[zelllogan]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

One thing I'm wondering about Nen. Can the emission group be used in order to propulse the character ? The ability to flight is always cool.
About Kurapika, his ability is cheated: Rapid Healing, Liar Detector, Strength ...

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Well, I still believe that we have to take into consideration the levels to understand abilities. We'll never see an emission user able to use good transformation techniques. Despite one's capacity to actually use this or that school, there's the refinement in techniques one can achieve according to their talent in it.

Killua or Kurapica will only learn very blunt Reinforcement techniques. Killua can apply reinforcement on his lightining, but he needs Transformation first and then applies Enhancement on that ([Transformation] + Reinforcement). Kurapica uses his chain under strict conditions to be able to do the same ([Conjuration+conditions] + Reinforcement). And only Reinforcers will be able to actually develop a technique based on their school without any consideration ([Reinforcement]).

I suppose Emitters can also apply Reinforcement on their skills, but can't use any reinforcement skill without their own school together. And that Manipulators would require, just as Kurapica did, a very strict condition to apply Reinforcement into one of their own Manipulation skill, but no reinforcement skill will be developed by them.

And I'm saying they won't develop skills from other schools not by their own choice, but by being unable to make them. Kastro made a conjured clone, but even if he had the red eyes, his skill would only be basic conjuration just as well. Just think of a person with inability to learn math: they wouldn't ever get to advanced calculus, but with the red eyes, they could do elementary algebra without an error. Kurapica can do elementary Reinforcement at full effectiveness, but only Ubo or Gon can use advanced Reinforcement at full effectiveness. And that's the reason I think he got a broken arm.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Well, I still believe that we have to take into consideration the levels to understand abilities. We'll never see an emission user able to use good transformation techniques. Despite one's capacity to actually use this or that school, there's the refinement in techniques one can achieve according to their talent in it.

I think it's more a question of being less gifted than being flat out unable.

Also, i am going to be mean, but Gon could probably be better at materialization than most Materiaization people- because he has that much talent.

Killua or Kurapica will only learn very blunt Reinforcement techniques. Killua can apply reinforcement on his lightining, but he needs Transformation first and then applies Enhancement on that ([Transformation] + Reinforcement). Kurapica uses his chain under strict conditions to be able to do the same ([Conjuration+conditions] + Reinforcement). And only Reinforcers will be able to actually develop a technique based on their school without any consideration ([Reinforcement]).

No, it's the opposite.

Anyone can reinforce their bodies or item. No one can reinforce Aura though, so Transformation or Manipulation can't be Reinforced- of course, Manipulation can be used to Reinforce someone, as Emission can (but Manipulation/Emission themselves won't be reinforced).

And I'm saying they won't develop skills from other schools not by their own choice, but by being unable to make them. Kastro made a conjured clone, but even if he had the red eyes, his skill would only be basic conjuration just as well. Just think of a person with inability to learn math: they wouldn't ever get to advanced calculus, but with the red eyes, they could do elementary algebra without an error. Kurapica can do elementary Reinforcement at full effectiveness, but only Ubo or Gon can use advanced Reinforcement at full effectiveness. And that's the reason I think he got a broken arm.

No, it's because When Ubo and Kurapika both were energy drained, Ubo still had an enmorous raw physical advantage.

The red eyes are only about NOT WASTING aura- they are not about making the technique stronger by itself (though, obviously, the technique usually does get stronger when you have more aura).

For example, Kurapika's aura can be used for Reinforcement, transformation, emission, without a loss of Aura to use a different style.

That doesn't mean Kurapika can use it *well*.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

@ Tombadgerlock: I simply don't know what manga have you been reading. Seriously, where did you get all this from? Everything in this manga is saying differently from your explanation, and I think everybody else understood it (with a few changes) similarly to my interpretation. What waste of aura? Kurapica's master clearly explained the percentages apply to efficiency in one's move. He says Kurapica will get 40 dmg in return, not 40 wasted aura. So IT IS about using well.

And no, I don't think it is impossible for someone to apply Reinforcement on a lightining aura. As with Reinforcement on one's aura, you just got to apply it into the aura-pores of that person. Wing proved it was possible when he opened Killua's and Gon's pores by applying Nen into them. The main difference is just using Reinforcement Nen rather than plain Nen. Any aura can be reinforced to have a bigger effect by applying reinforcement on one's aura pores.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

@ Tombadgerlock: I simply don't know what manga have you been reading. Seriously, where did you get all this from? Everything in this manga is saying differently from your explanation, and I think everybody else understood it (with a few changes) similarly to my interpretation. What waste of aura? Kurapica's master clearly explained the percentages apply to efficiency in one's move. He says Kurapica will get 40 dmg in return, not 40 wasted aura. So IT IS about using well.

for reinforcement?

Kurapika, for reinforcement, without red eyes, would waste 40% of his chakra 'compared to a materilization technique'. That's flat out stated.

If you prefer another wording, his aura produces 60 reinforcement for every 100 materialization. It's been said many, many, many, many, many times during the manga.

The levels are about the technique itself.

And no, I don't think it is impossible for someone to apply Reinforcement on a lightining aura. As with Reinforcement on one's aura, you just got to apply it into the aura-pores of that person. Wing proved it was possible when he opened Killua's and Gon's pores by applying Nen into them. The main difference is just using Reinforcement Nen rather than plain Nen. Any aura can be reinforced to have a bigger effect by applying reinforcement on one's aura pores.

Wing used his aura very, very gently in aura pore in order not to damage Killua/Gon. If he would have punched Gon with KOU it would also have opened his aura pore- it would just have killed Gon, too. That's, also, stated.

Reinforcement DOES not reinforce Aura abilities like transformation etc. That's, also, been stated.

Read the damn manga., There is NO SUCH THING AS PLAIN NEN.

I have no idea where you get your idea from, given we clearly see Killua using reinforcement on both items and his body, as we do Hisoka, as we do Zeno, as...

blah.

 

[baboysai]

Re: General Nen Thread

Was it ever mentioned what Netero was? It somehow slipped my mind and now that I think about his technique, was that a materialization? The buddha hands?

I also can't recall if Silva's ability was ever shown. Only Zeno fought with Chrollo and he showed his technique in the ant arc. Zeno would be... er... emission?

How about Illumi?

regarding Ging, I think it would be overkill if he was ever specialization. Although it's already been preempted that he's one of the best Nen users (I even thought he was no. 1 until Morau and Novu said Netero was no. 1...).

But Kurapica's specialization was overkill too, and I didn't think anything else could be cooler than 100% at everything. It was his own conditions that kept it fair.

 

[zelllogan]

Re: General Nen Thread

Was it ever mentioned what Netero was? It somehow slipped my mind and now that I think about his technique, was that a materialization? The buddha hands?

I think he was "emission" but it's never confirmed. "Emission" seems to be the general consensus.
http://hunterxhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Netero

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Kurapika can match Ubogin at 50% AP output so he has at least 75% of his physical ability. If you assume his Reinforcement is only modded 0.6, he has 93.75% of Ubogin's base physical strength (treat Ubogin as modded at 0.5 due to self-limit).

One of the underlying assumption in HXH is outside of stuff like the Ants, most people have comparable physical strength no matter how they look like. That's why training is about how to use aura better, not lift more weights to make your body indestructible. While physical prowess is clearly important, it's understood you're not going to just going to have a body twice as strong as someone else unless there's a great difference in training involved. The difference in strength comes from how far away you're from Reinforcement. That said, given the vast majority of techniques in HXH essentially only works on people weaker than you, even being 6% stronger is a huge advantage. Let's put it this way. If Knuckles is physically stronger by 6% compared to anyone he fights, he'd almost certainly never lose a fight unless he made a major mistake. On the other hand, assuming equal speed, his ability has almost no chance of working on someone who is just 6% stronger than him unless that guy is totally stupid.

If a Reinforcement user 100 AP for a level 10 Reinforcement effect, he'll get a level 10 Reinforcement technique with 100 AP of effect. A Materialization user attempting the samet hign will only ge ta level 6 Reinforcement with 60AP worth of effect for 100 AP. So 40% of the AP is wasted. The Materialize user cannot just spend 166 AP for 100 AP output because it's pretty clear these numbers are talking about maximum output. Otherwise Netero would be a fool to use an attack that did next to no damage hundreds of time if he could've just used 100 times the AP in one attack instead.

For flight, I'm assume Emission would provide the source of power but you'd need Manipulation to control where you're going. If you just use Emission, you can certainly go flying, but you might not even know where you're going to land.

 

[Phantron]

Re: General Nen Thread

The offical sourcebook puts Netero as Reinforcement. The manga really doesn't talk about the types of most of the later users.

 

[baboysai]

Re: General Nen Thread

huh. that link practically killed it. I'm guessing it has all the answers to my questions

---------- Post added at 01:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 AM ----------

The manga really doesn't talk about the types of most of the later users.

I think Togashi is assuming that at this point in the manga the readers can pretty much deduce what types the characters are based on their abilities.

But then he's wrong because here we are discussing it with varied opinions, hehe.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Kurapika can match Ubogin at 50% AP output so he has at least 75% of his physical ability. If you assume his Reinforcement is only modded 0.6, he has 93.75% of Ubogin's base physical strength (treat Ubogin as modded at 0.5 due to self-limit).

Not really:

First, Kurapika had red eyes then, so he didn't have any disadvantage there.

2nd, at 50% output Kurapika *wasn't hit even once*. Kurapika was only hit at 20% output, and later at "100%", but already under the chain jail.

Also, keep in mind that physical abilities *do* vary enormously between different character, and that the physical ability of someone multiplies the effect of nen (Biscuit was stated to have the same Aura between kid and true form, and you see the difference in strength. Biscuit also explained how physical and nen are multipliers, not additive. Killua also noticed he was much stronger physically than the boomer, but that he was greatly surpassed in aura mass).

There quite a few other examples.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Not really:

First, Kurapika had red eyes then, so he didn't have any disadvantage there.

2nd, at 50% output Kurapika *wasn't hit even once*. Kurapika was only hit at 20% output, and later at "100%", but already under the chain jail.

Also, keep in mind that physical abilities *do* vary enormously between different character, and that the physical ability of someone multiplies the effect of nen (Biscuit was stated to have the same Aura between kid and true form, and you see the difference in strength. Biscuit also explained how physical and nen are multipliers, not additive. Killua also noticed he was much stronger physically than the boomer, but that he was greatly surpassed in aura mass).

There quite a few other examples.

Ubogin didn't object to Kurapika's statement that continue fighting at 50% is a waste of time. If he was stronger at that point, he'd have no reason to further increase his power. Maybe you can say they have different strengths at this point (Ubogin is stronger, Kurapika is more agile) but functionally they're equal. I'm sure Ubogin can do more physical destruction at this point compared to Kurapika, but combat in HXH is generally not against stationary objects.

So far as attack power, it can easily be explained by the fact that defense in HXH is very high relative to attack. If two guys have both attack of 100 and defense of 100, then they'll hit each other for 0 damage, which we'll treat as 1 damage for convenience. If you've the Reinforcement versus Materialize classic example, then the Reinforcement guy can attack with a power of 200 against a defense of 160 in Materialize, doing 40 damage. That's 40 times the damage compared to no aura involved. Let's say the Reinforcement user used Ko and his damage increased by 5 times, now you got 1000 versus defense of 160, or 840 damage. This is 21 times the damage compared to just the normal aura fist case of 40 damage.

There are examples of people who can beat another guy using aura without using aura. Killua said he can defeat some of the random scrubs in their first encounter with Razor. Killua also said Pitou cannot beat Gon without using aura given Gon's improvement, which implies prior to his training that was actually possible. Of course in those cases the physical difference between the characters involved is pretty much incomparable. I think you just have aura dominating because all the characters in HXH are assumed to have extremely close physical ability and extremely good physical defense, so if you get even a small edge that translates to a very large damage increase.

 

[Uriel]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I changed the tittle, tempted to make it "Discovering Nen" but it wasn't that obvious so I put a more clear tittle to avoid any confusion.Moved some posts as well that were in other threads.

Remember...Here you ask about Nen and how it works (Who is what and how the hell it works) and then you've this thread to write down Character's Techniques.

For any question, don't hesitate to PM me.

 

[kkck]

I still don't think you can reinforce nen with nen. How would that even work? The most basic form of reinforcement we have seen (and perhaps the only one) is adding nen to an object or limb to increase its power. By doing that you combine the properties of the object (hardness, sharpness...) and the strength of the nen itself. How would that work with nen? You are not enhancing any particular property as usually nen has to be given properties for that to work. The way I see it, enhancing nen with nen would in principle be simply adding more nen to a technique. What would killua's electricity be like if he enhanced it? Would reinforcement increase the voltage it has? I doubt it and even then there would be a good chance he would be better off simply making electricity with his nen rather than reinforcing it since he is indeed 100% transmutter. I do think you can reinforce conjured objects. They are real objects with inherent properties to them, it makes sense that you could use nen to increase their power. The issue? Conjurers only have 40% acquisition for reinforcement, even if they use reinforcement techniques the result will be a marginal increase in power at the cost of a lot of nen (which is precious in battles).