Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[Phantron]

A bit more on the attack/defense thing. Biscuit said that if you have Ken versus Ken, you'd basically be hitting each other for negligible damage so you're in a permanent 50% attack/50% defense state. We'll assume this means 1.50 attack versus 1.50 defense = 1 damage.

Ryuu is not described as multiplicative as Ko, presumably because it's not as risky. The highest % we see for Ryuu is 90% attack, and that's already leaving yourself pretty wide open (refer to when Gensuru used 90% Ryuu versus Gon). Assuming Ryuu is additive, and that enemy defends with at least Ken at all times, you get 1.9 - 1.5 = 40 damage.

So if Ken versus Ken is 1 damage, then Ryuu versus Ken can only be at most 40 damage. Yet Biscuit says Ryuu is pretty much the most important part of combat. So going from 1 to 40 damage must be a very big deal. It cannot be the case someone can shrug off a 40 damage in this scale, or there really wouldn't even be a point to learn Ryuu since Ken is the default state of any experienced user, and yet Ryuu is only additive. However, when the vast majority of your attack gets absorbed by the opponent's Ken, even adding an extra 10 damage is huge.

Meryem can shrug off the effect of hundreds of Kannons, but that doesn't mean he can shrug off one attack that's a hundred times the power of Kannon.

 

[kkck]

Well, ko concentrates the entire aura around you body in a single point. Ryu concentrates aura in particular points however even that is limited as the area in itself is widen. With ryu you'd put more aura on entire areas such as arms or legs rather than completely focus it in one point. I do think the marginals when it comes to exchanges of ryu are very significant. I would think that if you exceed the nen defense of your opponent with your nen offense the difference is made into pure nen damage to the enemy's body. We know that taking nen attacks can be devastating even if weak. I would think that is why ryu is so overwhelmingly important. The way I phrased things does not really take into account the physical strength of the nen users, we are pretty much assuming they are the same.

 

[Uriel]

I thought before that you could reinforce Nen but I realize that then there wont be any balance of it. So I thought it was difficult then for Emission to get an advantage over Materialization until I remembered that Emission users CAN materialize the objects they make and it's based on distance and quantity over actually shaping it.

I know I'm not adding anything, I just wanted to say it xD

PS: I thought Ryu was the movement itself of the Aura and the distribution in the body...So Ryu IS ALSO Ken well applied.

 

[Phantron]

I thought before that you could reinforce Nen but I realize that then there wont be any balance of it. So I thought it was difficult then for Emission to get an advantage over Materialization until I remembered that Emission users CAN materialize the objects they make and it's based on distance and quantity over actually shaping it.

I know I'm not adding anything, I just wanted to say it xD

PS: I thought Ryu was the movement itself of the Aura and the distribution in the body...So Ryu IS ALSO Ken well applied.

Ken is 50% attack 50% defense everywhere at once.

Ko is 100% attack/defense at one spot and 0% everywhere else.

Ryu is some % (presumably greater than 50%) in one potentially largeish area and some % (presumably less than 50%) everywhere else.

I think all these 3 techniques are essentially the same thing, but Ken just leads to stalemates, and Ko is too risky. So only Ryuu is actually practical. We know if you get hit at a 0% spot in Ko, you pretty much die. On the other hand, using Gensuru versus Gon as an example, we know Gon used 90% Ryuu and Gensuru wasn't holding back. Gensuru was attempting to hit the 10% spot, but he also didn't want to kill Gon (no cards that way), so you can infer getting hit at a 10% spot isn't fatal (though will certainly hurt).

 

[Jack Van Burace]

I still don't think you can reinforce nen with nen. How would that even work? The most basic form of reinforcement we have seen (and perhaps the only one) is adding nen to an object or limb to increase its power. By doing that you combine the properties of the object (hardness, sharpness...) and the strength of the nen itself. How would that work with nen? You are not enhancing any particular property as usually nen has to be given properties for that to work. The way I see it, enhancing nen with nen would in principle be simply adding more nen to a technique. What would killua's electricity be like if he enhanced it? Would reinforcement increase the voltage it has? I doubt it and even then there would be a good chance he would be better off simply making electricity with his nen rather than reinforcing it since he is indeed 100% transmutter. I do think you can reinforce conjured objects. They are real objects with inherent properties to them, it makes sense that you could use nen to increase their power. The issue? Conjurers only have 40% acquisition for reinforcement, even if they use reinforcement techniques the result will be a marginal increase in power at the cost of a lot of nen (which is precious in battles).

As I said over and over, Gon and Killua's pores were opened by applying Nen into them. Not Hatsu, no techniques, just plain and simple Nen from Wing. If one is to apply their Nen into their pores, and use a Reinforcement Hatsu instead of basic techniques (Hatsu isn't Ten or Ren, it's something else), it's likely that they will also be reinforced, just like any part of one's body. The reinforcement will be as good as one's ability, so the extra aura would be put to good use, but wouldn't expand one's aura indefinitely.

Extra aura isn't extra skill in reinforcing the aura-pores. It's just more aura output. Not sure if we've seen it on the manga, it has never been stated, but people with a huge aura might be using this.

 

[baboysai]

Isn't Hatsu the special ability already?

And Ryu is the specially calculated aura combat where you had to assume how much your opponent was offensively so you could counter with just the right amount of defense without wasting aura so you could fight longer? This was the nen exercise they did in GI, if I remember correctly?

What was the nen exercise that Bisquit made Gon and Killua do for three hours each day before the match with Knuckle?

 

[Uriel]

Isn't Hatsu the special ability already?

Not quite. It's the school but it isn't the special ability. To put it more clear: Special Abilities uses often more than one school. Hatsu only shows how your Nen reacts.

And Ryu is the specially calculated aura combat where you had to assume how much your opponent was offensively so you could counter with just the right amount of defense without wasting aura so you could fight longer? This was the nen exercise they did in GI, if I remember correctly?

It's the distribution of it when it's not 50-50% or 100-0% but I understand it as you as well. It's the movement itself and not the proportion of it. That's why Biscuit trained a lot the reaction and speed of Gon to the enemy aura.

And I think it was simply sustained Ren.

 

[Antaries]

You guys are doing it wrong. Reinforcement types has the best offense and defense bar none.
Meaning, everybody can use reinforcement that's why specialization is started at 0%

For example, a manipulation chain user can manipulate every single chain link with 100% but can imbue it with reinforcement around 60% It might not be the strongest chain ever but it can bend and animate with the persons will just as long as he keeps distance he can actually stay in steady ground vs a reinforcement type. The chain itself is like a part of the persons body. Hell it can even it shoot and emit chain slash auras using 80% emission.

Now on the other hand if a reinforcement user used a chain. He won't be able to manipulate it as good as a manipulation type. I mean, he could swing it like crazy imbued with 100% reinforcement but vs a manipulation chain I imagine it would only get wrapped around at some point and deemed useless. That's why reinforcements usually use their bodies instead of weapons. But hey Nobunaga seems to imbue his sword with 100% reinforcement and en at the same time.

Now Hisoka bungie gum ability. The aura transforms into a bubble gum with 100% transformation power, gets it's strength and durability of 80% from reinforcement, and 60% long range emission throw (Hisoka getting the ball back from the other side of the court). He also uses materialization of 80% with his cards (80% reinforcement strong) and deceitful texture (100% transformation deceitful).

Same thing with Killua. First he used electricity just as a stun gun and a yoyo conductor. And then he was able to cultivate his aura more and turn it into a lightning strike and finally was able to use Kanmaru + en ( the more his transformation power grows).

Knuckles was obviously a reinforcement type as well but he can summon pot clean using only 60% materialization and set a restriction on it upon fist contact.
Shoot must be on the manipulation type and was able to proficiently manipulate his aerial hands and trap them in a materialized cage. This is similar to Shizukus deme-chan and Owl's blanket trick. I suspect to actually do that (trap something in a minature reality), they might have some sort of specialization mastery somewhat.

What other types lack from their powers of reinforcement, they makes up for the sheer uniqueness of their techniques.

About ap? Yeah that's like the magic points in RPG's right? Different techniques require different amounts AP's. If Gon's Janken drains 2000ap, Killua Kanmaru ability must be like 6000ap that lasts for 3 minutes.

 

[Phantron]

Not quite. It's the school but it isn't the special ability. To put it more clear: Special Abilities uses often more than one school. Hatsu only shows how your Nen reacts.


It's the distribution of it when it's not 50-50% or 100-0% but I understand it as you as well. It's the movement itself and not the proportion of it. That's why Biscuit trained a lot the reaction and speed of Gon to the enemy aura.

And I think it was simply sustained Ren.

The hard part of Ryuu is moving the aura fast enough. Estimating is easy because AP output is a physically viewable thing. If you fight someone who is twice as strong as you in aura and he used 50%, to you it'd look like 100% of your AP output so you'd just use 100% to defend (or an amount reasonable close to it without leaving you too vulnerable). The problem is that if someone sees 90% of your aura on your right hand, they know you're going to attack with your right hand and will most likely dodge the attack, or at least easily defend against it. Ideally you want to apply aura to wherever you're attacking at the last possible moment, but since it takes time for most people to control the flow, you also can't wait too long.

 

[kkck]

As I said over and over, Gon and Killua's pores were opened by applying Nen into them. Not Hatsu, no techniques, just plain and simple Nen from Wing. If one is to apply their Nen into their pores, and use a Reinforcement Hatsu instead of basic techniques (Hatsu isn't Ten or Ren, it's something else), it's likely that they will also be reinforced, just like any part of one's body. The reinforcement will be as good as one's ability, so the extra aura would be put to good use, but wouldn't expand one's aura indefinitely.

Extra aura isn't extra skill in reinforcing the aura-pores. It's just more aura output. Not sure if we've seen it on the manga, it has never been stated, but people with a huge aura might be using this.

I don't think that makes sense. I doubt you can reinforce whatever releases nen from your body, how would that even work? Even if it did work all you would be doing is release more nen, not reinforcing it. Anyone can train to release more aura, that much has been stated.

---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------

You guys are doing it wrong. Reinforcement types has the best offense and defense bar none.
Meaning, everybody can use reinforcement that's why specialization is started at 0%

For example, a manipulation chain user can manipulate every single chain link with 100% but can imbue it with reinforcement around 60% It might not be the strongest chain ever but it can bend and animate with the persons will just as long as he keeps distance he can actually stay in steady ground vs a reinforcement type. The chain itself is like a part of the persons body. Hell it can even it shoot and emit chain slash auras using 80% emission.

Now on the other hand if a reinforcement user used a chain. He won't be able to manipulate it as good as a manipulation type. I mean, he could swing it like crazy imbued with 100% reinforcement but vs a manipulation chain I imagine it would only get wrapped around at some point and deemed useless. That's why reinforcements usually use their bodies instead of weapons. But hey Nobunaga seems to imbue his sword with 100% reinforcement and en at the same time.

Now Hisoka bungie gum ability. The aura transforms into a bubble gum with 100% transformation power, gets it's strength and durability of 80% from reinforcement, and 60% long range emission throw (Hisoka getting the ball back from the other side of the court). He also uses materialization of 80% with his cards (80% reinforcement strong) and deceitful texture (100% transformation deceitful).

Same thing with Killua. First he used electricity just as a stun gun and a yoyo conductor. And then he was able to cultivate his aura more and turn it into a lightning strike and finally was able to use Kanmaru + en ( the more his transformation power grows).

Knuckles was obviously a reinforcement type as well but he can summon pot clean using only 60% materialization and set a restriction on it upon fist contact.
Shoot must be on the manipulation type and was able to proficiently manipulate his aerial hands and trap them in a materialized cage. This is similar to Shizukus deme-chan and Owl's blanket trick. I suspect to actually do that (trap something in a minature reality), they might have some sort of specialization mastery somewhat.

What other types lack from their powers of reinforcement, they makes up for the sheer uniqueness of their techniques.

About ap? Yeah that's like the magic points in RPG's right? Different techniques require different amounts AP's. If Gon's Janken drains 2000ap, Killua Kanmaru ability must be like 6000ap that lasts for 3 minutes.

Nobunaga is an enhancer and he enhances his sword. You can't imbue en into something though. I also have my doubts about using en and reinforcement at the same time. Reinforcement requires you to at least put a lot of nen into something while en requires you to expand all of the nen around you, which in theory would be the same you use to reinforce the sword. In other words you either reinforce the sword or use en.

Bungee gum itself requires no reinforcement. Hisoka already gives his nen the properties of gun and rubber on his own, reinforcement has no place in all of this. It would be like arguing that killua merely gives electricity shape to his aura and reinforces it to make it give an electric shock.

I think knuckle was said to be emission which would make sense considering his pot clean is obviously nen separated from his body. It will never disappear on his own either... obviously he would require insane melee prowess however as we have seen knuckle does have that (gon was fodder to him even after more than trippling hi aura).

 

[Phantron]

Hisoka's ability seems to have no room for improvement. Similar to Potclean it's already arbitarily bouncy/sticky (no reason to believe either property can be overcome by force), but since Hisoka has to be the person holding the gum, its overall power is still limited by the person behind it. If you're stronger than Hisoka then you can easily yank him back and use this ability against him.

On the other hand I think something like Killua's lightning can definitely be improved in duration and intensity by projecting more AP at once for the ability, but that's not reinforcement. Otherwise you get into the issue that as long as a Reinforcement guy can master the minimal level to be useful of some other school, he'd have to be the strongest at that school. If Gon ever learned how to change aura into electricity, by that logic he'd be able project a stronger current than Killua, even though this is clearly a Transformation school technique.

 

[kkck]

Well, I would think hisoka's situation with his transformed nen is the same as killuas. It is not a matter of further improvement in either case but rather applying it. Hisoka is not about to improve his gum any more than killua is about to improve electricity. As long as they find uses they can do a limitless amount of things.

 

[Phantron]

Well, I would think hisoka's situation with his transformed nen is the same as killuas. It is not a matter of further improvement in either case but rather applying it. Hisoka is not about to improve his gum any more than killua is about to improve electricity. As long as they find uses they can do a limitless amount of things.

I guess Hisoka can make more gum at once but that doesn't seem to be very useful.

I'd think Killua ought to be able to increase the duration at least. Maybe intensity cannot be improved since physical strength/defense doesn't provide electrical resistance, and he already shock Yupi. If you can shock anybody for about 5 seconds, that's basically a guaranteed kill.

 

[kkck]

Well, it comes to the situation. More gum would obviously be able to expand and resist more than less gum. Take the razor situation, he used a lot of gum to return the shot, more than what he has used before.

Killua could increase the duration of his techniques but in turn that would require a greater amount of nen, not an improvement of his electricity. If killua's nen is equal to gons then he has about as much nen as a mid level fighter. Killua needs to at least triple the amount of nen he has for him to be able to use his techniques freely. I am not sure if he could become more efficient at making electricity though. Ideally the most efficiency he could get is transforming 1 unit of nen into 1 unit of electricity. He is a transmutter but in turn he is also young and inexperienced, perhaps his rate is not quite 1 to 1 yet which would be interesting as killua's fighting prowess would increase exponentially as he becomes more efficient and increases his nen.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Argh! I wrote the biggest post and accidentally hit tab+backspace ("return to previous page" shortcut). All is gone...

So I would just like to say to kkck in short that more aura results in no body parts uncovered when you focus Nen in one body part, leaving no parts of yourself exposed. OR an even bigger amount of aura focused on your fist. Very handy. And more electric aura would indeed result in a stronger charge, just as more aura results into a bigger emission (more damage).

One could train Ren and increase aura production, but I suppose Reinforcement Hatsu would be very handy for people with at least 80% affinity, as it would be more versatile: works for defense, agility, strength, healing and hardening objects. Of course, it wouldn't do all that for a person without a good affinity, so that's why I'm picking emission, transformation and Kurapica's examples only. A regular conjurer/manipulator/specialist wouldn't likely benefit from it as much as training Ren plain and simple.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Well, it comes to the situation. More gum would obviously be able to expand and resist more than less gum. Take the razor situation, he used a lot of gum to return the shot, more than what he has used before.

Killua could increase the duration of his techniques but in turn that would require a greater amount of nen, not an improvement of his electricity. If killua's nen is equal to gons then he has about as much nen as a mid level fighter. Killua needs to at least triple the amount of nen he has for him to be able to use his techniques freely. I am not sure if he could become more efficient at making electricity though. Ideally the most efficiency he could get is transforming 1 unit of nen into 1 unit of electricity. He is a transmutter but in turn he is also young and inexperienced, perhaps his rate is not quite 1 to 1 yet which would be interesting as killua's fighting prowess would increase exponentially as he becomes more efficient and increases his nen.

There is also the fact that Killua seems to need to 'recharge' so far- for example, after using Kanmaru against Youpi, he went into the castle and plugged himself into a electricity line.

So, he seems to still need help for transformign his aura into electricty, and can't do it efficiently yet.

It will get there though.

 

[Phantron]

Argh! I wrote the biggest post and accidentally hit tab+backspace ("return to previous page" shortcut). All is gone...

So I would just like to say to kkck in short that more aura results in no body parts uncovered when you focus Nen in one body part, leaving no parts of yourself exposed. OR an even bigger amount of aura focused on your fist. Very handy. And more electric aura would indeed result in a stronger charge, just as more aura results into a bigger emission (more damage).

One could train Ren and increase aura production, but I suppose Reinforcement Hatsu would be very handy for people with at least 80% affinity, as it would be more versatile: works for defense, agility, strength, healing and hardening objects. Of course, it wouldn't do all that for a person without a good affinity, so that's why I'm picking emission, transformation and Kurapica's examples only. A regular conjurer/manipulator/specialist wouldn't likely benefit from it as much as training Ren plain and simple.

Someone much stronger than you in aura can conceiveably cover himself in a state of Ken that is equivalent of your Ko. However that guy still cannot cover his whole body on his level of Ko no matter what. Outside of Gon, there are no characters that have been shown to have a massive AP output relative to his peers, so although having more AP output is always good, you'd pretty much expect any comparable level character to you to have a similar AP output.

Why wouldn't manipulate benefit from AP output? Morel can control hundreds of objects, while Pitou can control thousands at once. It'd seem pretty logical to assume more AP output = more entities controlled at once. Someone with a higher AP can presumably Materialize more of something at once too. Now, if Shizuku materialized 10 vacuum cleaners, it's not very obvious whether that does any good for combat, but it's always established some schools are better suited for combat than others.

 

[kkck]

Well, killua could have about as great a ken as gon IMO. The issue would be that the two fight differently (killua is far more calculative and has a greater degree of finesse). Gon outputs more aura because his ko requires it, in turn killua burns through his nen by converting it into electricity.

As for manipulating things, it depends on the user and technique. Morel could control smoke creatures though, I would think that is quite different from controlling people. I don't think we ever saw pitou controlling thousands through his puppets though.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Someone with a higher AP can presumably Materialize more of something at once too.

Especially true for coltopi

Now, if Shizuku materialized 10 vacuum cleaners, it's not very obvious whether that does any good for combat, but it's always established some schools are better suited for combat than others.

I doubt Shizuku can materialize more than one Deme-chan at once, as for her it's kinda a person. However, she could instead Materialize Five different Hatsu at once (same way Kurapika has different chains).

 

[Uriel]

A thought...Since Scissors requires Transformation does that means that Gon can make his aura edgy? >_>

but since Hisoka has to be the person holding the gum, its overall power is still limited by the person behind it. If you're stronger than Hisoka then you can easily yank him back and use this ability against him. .

Hisoka is kinda tricky and his ability is yet to be seen in fully function. He was almost playing with Kastro to take it as consideration.
The gum can be used in almost everything, so it's not limited by the person behind it. If Hisoka puts a point in one hand and the other in the other hand then the limit will be it's own strength.
Most awesome thing about Nen techniques is that they seem finished but they change a lot when applied and circumstances, which makes HxH cool to read. I know you know, but I always like to write it down xD