The show is like a really well-crafted dish with filler and lazy ingredients. Delicious and attractive, but somewhat unsatisfying...while the book is the full course with no shortcuts on richness/quality. It will give you diabetes and gout in one bite.
Can it be that the show seems unsatisfying because people compare it to the books? People usually complain when changes have been made to the original content but it's rare that someone thinks the original content is inferior.
Can it be that the show seems unsatisfying because people compare it to the books? People usually complain when changes have been made to the original content but it's rare that someone thinks the original content is inferior.
Eh, kinda harsh to call it ignorance. Some might just not want to read hundreds and hundreds of pages. It's not like I do that on a regular basis myself, but it didn't keep me from enjoying it through and through.
Yup, of course those who don't read the books are not literally ignorant, it's just that knowing nothing about the original material may have a particular effect of making the show more enjoyable overall.
Yup, of course those who don't read the books are not literally ignorant, it's just that knowing nothing about the original material may have a particular effect of making the show more enjoyable overall.
I really thought GoT was very good but book readers make it seem like it's quite horrible so I guess Miyagi has a point.
On one hand, it makes me grateful that I haven't read the books so the show still seems very good to me, on the other, I can't help wondering how good the books are if the readers shit on the show so much.
It's not horrible at all...it's just you have these things in the back of your head that you know how something SHOULD be...and when they change it, a lot of the time it makes no sense. It makes you appreciate GRRM and the books even more.
Well I guess at this point the changes seem so massive that it's almost an entirely different story. Too much changed or never shown, certain ruined characters... yep, prolly better to not read the books now x'D
It's not horrible at all...it's just you have these things in the back of your head that you know how something SHOULD be...and when they change it, a lot of the time it makes no sense. It makes you appreciate GRRM and the books even more.
I see. Well either way, reading the books probably stifles how much one enjoys the show due to said changes which are either too much or too bad I guess.
I see. Well either way, reading the books probably stifles how much one enjoys the show due to said changes which are either too much or too bad I guess.
Changes had to be made, the format dictates that. But a lot of the changes make no sense or change the essence of the character/story. That's really my main gripe.
Changes had to be made, the format dictates that. But a lot of the changes make no sense or change the essence of the character/story. That's really my main gripe.
Firstly...it's been a while! How's life? Are you still reading/watching/experiencing quality stuff like you always do? Well it's pretty awkward since i've been gone for 2 years so let's talk about VNs *Brings the entire UBW conversation over here*
Because I'm always happy to see you return
Actually I finished Ever 17 long ago too, just using the sig because I finally managed to convince Sky (Skyguardian) to try it and he reminded me of how awesome it was Did I finally found an avid VN reader like myself here on MH?
I'm not really avid I guess I do read VNs to an extent...let's see, I can only list 3
- Umineko no Naku Koro ni (the one that got a person like me who is easily bored and uninterested into reading hours and hours of text per day. Umineko was cruel, it drew
me in too deep to let me out satisfied until I was done and sad.)
- Ever 17 (FINALLY SOMEONE READS IT HERE!! ...Long text ahead)
I love Ever17. I was this close to dropping it in the beginning because I was hype up for another mystery/thriller kind of VN but the beginning felt like a slice of life. But somehow I convinced myself that it will get better and meanwhile I should just relax and enjoy the
cheerful and chill moments between the characters you know?
Then I became attached to certain characters and the sci-fi/mysterious in the vn. The rest is history as I couldn't stop playing until the true end (Coco route).
There were things that I didn't like though, it's not that the VN did not have flaws they were very minimal which did not make it less brilliant. I didn't like the Sara route because it felt forced at parts nor did I enjoyed getting info dump at the final route. I had to pause a few moments to piece things together.
I felt like the final route could have done a better job not letting my brain burst but hey it was hell lot of fun figuring things out and when you go "Hey that was actually foreshadowed..WHOA".
And then there were a whole lot of things I like:
Tsugumi being best character in the VN.
The dark story behind LeMU.
The mother and daughter by the same name, the well written plot twists, the ability to choose 2 MCs and there being a great reason why everything is same, yet different. Like a mirror.
And also this..
I still can't wrap my head around Blink Winkel completely after so long but Ever17 has
seemingly zero plot holes and is an amazing VN
- Fate/Stay Night
I guess I don't need to say anything... if you were to ask me to choose
which is the superior VN amongst the three...I just can't choose one.
It's all on a pedestal of greatness.
Wow so many difficult questions xD I would say Stay, but the comparison is kinda unfair because I haven't read the Zero Light Novels. If I could divide it some more I would say Fate Route -> Zero = UBW -> Heavens Feel. Fate route definitely was the weakest part for me. Can't really place Hollow Ataraxia anywhere, because it's mainly just slice of life. I guess if we're only talking about the story I would place it somewhere on the level of UBW/Zero (but I guess you haven't really tried Hollow Ataraxia yet if you're still busy with Stay Night, so sorry for bringing that up xD)
Better protag is easily Shirou in my eyes, but he gets much more development over the course of all three routes, so again the comparison might be a bit unfair.
You can easily ignore the UBW movie, one and a half hours obviously wasn't nowhere near enough to cover the whole route. Some nice animation here and there (though obviously nowhere near ufotable), but a butchered story and characters.
What did you like about the HF route over the other routes? I've realized I've been bombarding you with FSN questions but it's just so rare to find someone who can talk with me about the VN here since I just completed it.
I'm going to try HA when the voice patch(if it evers) gets released. If it never happens..well, I don't mind!
After reading HF I realized..there's no one true Shirou but at the same time they can all be the true Shirou. I'm...not sure if that makes sense.
I mean it's unfair to compare Shirou with Kiritsugu and I'm sorry I did that. mainly because there's no true Shirou. It can be the Fate one, the UBW one and the HF's one.
People would say that Shirou in UBW will make the choices in HF (turn his back on his beliefs) if it comes to it. But that would invalidate his entire development in the route itself.
Shirou started off as a character that gets developed differently
through all three routes. Sure, they share similarities but no I don't think they can be called the same guy at the end of each routes. Shirou after UBW might not make the choices in HF.
And that actually makes me wanted to see a Kiritsugu that made the choices Shirou did in Heaven's Feel. I want to see a happy family with Kiritsugu, Ilya and Irisviel.
Even in Fate route, Ilya dies one year after the true end and that's sad.
Yeah..I found the youtube UBW movie, skip to the confession scene, saw it and never went back to the movie again. So basically, saw two minutes of it and it was shit.
Well I've been spoiled with that as well because I've seen Zero before, but it doesn't really take much away from the greatness of Heavens Feel. A LOT MORE important reveals you have no clue about if you've only seen Zero. It's certainly the most dark and I can see why you like Rin so much, but believe me that Sakura isn't a bad character at all either. Take your time and tell me once you're done
Zouken was a bitch in Zero and he's now a piece of dipshit in HF. I mean that guy is an irredeemable fag. I feel no remorse or sympathy for Shinji, I actually wouldn't mind him getting tortured to death and wanted him to die a lot in UBW.
Although Rin is still best girl and OTP.
At the end of HF, I changed from not liking Sakura to sympathizing her and then feeling genuinely happy/sad for her end.
I'm one of those guys that got the good ending first and goddamnit that hit me like a shitload of bricks right in the heart. If you forgot, which I doubt you did, Sakura survives because Shirou sacrifices his life to save her(after using his Archer's arm 3 times...which is completely my fault because of a stupid choice) .
And Sakura spends the rest of her life waiting for his return, believing that one day he will be with her watching the cherry blossoms. All the while, she plants cherry blossom seeds everyday and grow old, hoping one day he will come back.
It was her own way of redemption for the ones she killed.
It was a lonely and sad ending but felt realistic considering the dark theme and painful story of HF. I might have cried if I read this ending when I was younger but I still think my heart cried a little.
Mainly because I saw the good ending, the true ending was a blessing and I genuinely smiled through the entire thing. As much of a Rin X Shirou person I am, it was heart warming to see Sakura getting her happy ending after all the pain. When the credits rolled, I knew the stories were finally over.
Some thoughts:
- Ilya.. most tragic character? Yes. She did not survive this route either.
- Shirou is GAR. He's the epitome of what a man should be. Before I started FSN
I felt like hey maybe he's not that bad and after reading this he might not be as whiny as he looks to goddamnit I want to be like this guy. The physical and mental pain, the losing of memories and enduring pain just to stay concious was hard to read.
He shines so well in UBW too but in HF he was going through a lot more pain to the extent of giving up his life for the person he loves.
- So many important messages was delivered in HF route. Life lessons.
Romance is ideal but Love is reality.
- Poor servants getting killed off in less than a few frames in this route.
- The part where Shirou killed Saber..I was expecting her to come back but she never did and that made it even more better.
- Kotomine Kirei development, one of my favourite characters.
- Rin is badass in this route, I mean she's badass everywhere but she shines a heck lot in this route. Cutting down noble fantasms like a boss. And that sister hug at the end..damnit she suffered a lot too.
- Oh right, Fuck Shinji.
Firstly...it's been a while! How's life? Are you still reading/watching/experiencing quality stuff like you always do? Well it's pretty awkward since i've been gone for 2 years so let's talk about VNs *Brings the entire UBW conversation over here*
I'm not really avid I guess I do read VNs to an extent...let's see, I can only list 3
- Umineko no Naku Koro ni (the one that got a person like me who is easily bored and uninterested into reading hours and hours of text per day. Umineko was cruel, it drew
me in too deep to let me out satisfied until I was done and sad.)
- Ever 17 (FINALLY SOMEONE READS IT HERE!! ...Long text ahead)
I love Ever17. I was this close to dropping it in the beginning because I was hype up for another mystery/thriller kind of VN but the beginning felt like a slice of life. But somehow I convinced myself that it will get better and meanwhile I should just relax and enjoy the
cheerful and chill moments between the characters you know?
Then I became attached to certain characters and the sci-fi/mysterious in the vn. The rest is history as I couldn't stop playing until the true end (Coco route).
There were things that I didn't like though, it's not that the VN did not have flaws they were very minimal which did not make it less brilliant. I didn't like the Sara route because it felt forced at parts nor did I enjoyed getting info dump at the final route. I had to pause a few moments to piece things together.
I felt like the final route could have done a better job not letting my brain burst but hey it was hell lot of fun figuring things out and when you go "Hey that was actually foreshadowed..WHOA".
And then there were a whole lot of things I like:
Tsugumi being best character in the VN.
The dark story behind LeMU.
The mother and daughter by the same name, the well written plot twists, the ability to choose 2 MCs and there being a great reason why everything is same, yet different. Like a mirror.
And also this..
I still can't wrap my head around Blink Winkel completely after so long but Ever17 has
seemingly zero plot holes and is an amazing VN
- Fate/Stay Night
I guess I don't need to say anything... if you were to ask me to choose
which is the superior VN amongst the three...I just can't choose one.
It's all on a pedestal of greatness.
What did you like about the HF route over the other routes? I've realized I've been bombarding you with FSN questions but it's just so rare to find someone who can talk with me about the VN here since I just completed it.
I'm going to try HA when the voice patch(if it evers) gets released. If it never happens..well, I don't mind!
After reading HF I realized..there's no one true Shirou but at the same time they can all be the true Shirou. I'm...not sure if that makes sense.
I mean it's unfair to compare Shirou with Kiritsugu and I'm sorry I did that. mainly because there's no true Shirou. It can be the Fate one, the UBW one and the HF's one.
People would say that Shirou in UBW will make the choices in HF (turn his back on his beliefs) if it comes to it. But that would invalidate his entire development in the route itself.
Shirou started off as a character that gets developed differently
through all three routes. Sure, they share similarities but no I don't think they can be called the same guy at the end of each routes. Shirou after UBW might not make the choices in HF.
And that actually makes me wanted to see a Kiritsugu that made the choices Shirou did in Heaven's Feel. I want to see a happy family with Kiritsugu, Ilya and Irisviel.
Even in Fate route, Ilya dies one year after the true end and that's sad.
Yeah..I found the youtube UBW movie, skip to the confession scene, saw it and never went back to the movie again. So basically, saw two minutes of it and it was shit.
Zouken was a bitch in Zero and he's now a piece of dipshit in HF. I mean that guy is an irredeemable fag. I feel no remorse or sympathy for Shinji, I actually wouldn't mind him getting tortured to death and wanted him to die a lot in UBW.
Although Rin is still best girl and OTP.
At the end of HF, I changed from not liking Sakura to sympathizing her and then feeling genuinely happy/sad for her end.
I'm one of those guys that got the good ending first and goddamnit that hit me like a shitload of bricks right in the heart. If you forgot, which I doubt you did, Sakura survives because Shirou sacrifices his life to save her(after using his Archer's arm 3 times...which is completely my fault because of a stupid choice) .
And Sakura spends the rest of her life waiting for his return, believing that one day he will be with her watching the cherry blossoms. All the while, she plants cherry blossom seeds everyday and grow old, hoping one day he will come back.
It was her own way of redemption for the ones she killed.
It was a lonely and sad ending but felt realistic considering the dark theme and painful story of HF. I might have cried if I read this ending when I was younger but I still think my heart cried a little.
Mainly because I saw the good ending, the true ending was a blessing and I genuinely smiled through the entire thing. As much of a Rin X Shirou person I am, it was heart warming to see Sakura getting her happy ending after all the pain. When the credits rolled, I knew the stories were finally over.
Some thoughts:
- Ilya.. most tragic character? Yes. She did not survive this route either.
- Shirou is GAR. He's the epitome of what a man should be. Before I started FSN
I felt like hey maybe he's not that bad and after reading this he might not be as whiny as he looks to goddamnit I want to be like this guy. The physical and mental pain, the losing of memories and enduring pain just to stay concious was hard to read.
He shines so well in UBW too but in HF he was going through a lot more pain to the extent of giving up his life for the person he loves.
- So many important messages was delivered in HF route. Life lessons.
Romance is ideal but Love is reality.
- Poor servants getting killed off in less than a few frames in this route.
- The part where Shirou killed Saber..I was expecting her to come back but she never did and that made it even more better.
- Kotomine Kirei development, one of my favourite characters.
- Rin is badass in this route, I mean she's badass everywhere but she shines a heck lot in this route. Cutting down noble fantasms like a boss. And that sister hug at the end..damnit she suffered a lot too.
- Oh right, Fuck Shinji.
What matter is that you return, though I hope you're staying longer this time I'm actually sick and have a fever+feeling bad+headache but I couldn't sleep and when I saw your post I liked it so much that I felt like I just have to respond now Besides that life is going fine, working as an educator now and that's pretty good so far. Nice kids and nice colleagues, so I can't really complain.
I'm still reading/watching and experiencing quality stuff ofc, I guess I'm more of an otaku now compared to two years ago XD I think it wasn't too much after you left again that I tried Fate/Stay Night on a whim because I enjoyed Fate/Zero so much. Now I'm prolly what some people call a TYPE MOONEY, someone who enjoys and really likes almost every work done from TYPE MOON but I'm talking too much, how is life going for you dude? I vaguely remember that you did have some problems back then (we had a big convo about it long ago), is everything "fixed" now?
so..... I'm not sure where to start even lol, so I will use spoiler tags for the different topics:
Well you already heard about how I got into Visual Novel. After finishing Stay Night I was really hyped to read more from them and started Tsukihime. Not as awesome as Stay Night and obviously graphics look pretty bad, but that's understandable considering they were a really small studio back then and it was their first work. They actually announced a remake of the VN some years ago (it's getting delayed for various reasons) with way better graphics obviously and added content etc. REALLY hyped for this, but as long as there's no release date I have to wait. If you want a very vague comparison:
There's more art revealed already but I doubt you're that interested, so yeah back to the topic now XD After that I was curious what other VN's had to offer and looked on the most well-known VN side which ones supposedly are the best (this is how it looks, already sorted by ratings: https://vndb.org/v/all?q=;fil=tagspoil-0;o=d;s=rating )
I actually tried Umineko next, but it was so weird without choices and I was a bit perplexed when the story seemingly started from a way different point in the second act. I still planned to finish it obviously, but life got in the way and for some reason I never returned to it. Prolly should and will at some point. Afterwards... yeah I started a lot of different VN. Well if I say a lot that's too much I guess, right now I've tried 13 VN's and finished 11. That being said, if you like a good mystery story with mostly great characters I HIGHLY recommend G-Senjou no Maou: https://vndb.org/v211
Prolly the first VN that managed to make me cry in the end. It's setting is somewhat similar to Death Note (no Death Note obviously), but detective trying to catch the mastermind kind of story. Pretty engaging right from the beginning and a very good mix of mystery and drama, so I figure that's something for you too.
I've already said too much but I'm going to add that Skyguardian is reading Visual Novels too. I don't think you know much about him, but he became a good friend of mine since he joined. We've both read various Visual Novels after I convinced him to play Fate/Stay Night and G-Senjou afterwards We also visited Tokyo together, but that's a different story.
Kinda similar experience for me. Not so much because of slice of life, but the beginning was just... not that good in my eyes. Obviously that changed with time and I knew it was very high ranked on the site I mentioned, so I was sure the VN would deliver soon enough. Really enjoyed it overall, though the true route obviously was the highlight to me. Maybe a tad bit too much infodump, but it was kind of necessary because the amount of mystery at that point was so huge. Honestly I was blasted away with all the reveals, especially with the whole past/future thing and Blickwinkel. I never could have imagined such a solution, so I was really amazed. Sara was my least favourite route by far too, it's funny that we think alike so much XD
- Tsugumi best character, yes! And ofc here cute hamster Chami
- Karma was my favourite song too, it's just so touching... honestly when Takeshi sacrificed himself for Tsugumi to get away and then that song... My favourite version is actually fan-made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczqkQAm_kw
I actually still think that the whole Blickwinkel thing (together with everything else somehow) was among the very best plot twists I've seen. Also really liked that the VN basically made you Blickwinkel, I kinda had to laugh when I played the next VN after that because I imagined myself being Blickwinkel again for a sec XD Anyway, amazing VN indeed
Personally Fate/Stay Night is my favourite VN, but that's prolly also because of nostalgia and my first experience with VN's. It just had a total package that was SO MUCH my thing (setting, characters, fights, etc) and I still feel like that today, even if I know that other VNs can compare or are even better.
Sure go ahead and bombard me with questions, I don't mind Reminder that you can always take about Fate Stay Night or Ever 17 with Sky too, but I'm not sure if you're interested because you don't really know him, so just saying~
What I liked more in HF.... hmm it felt like a tighter knit story overall. I mean all the slice of life at the other parts was nice, but still sometimes it felt a bit awkward to me (and a bit unrealistic). With HF I felt like it was reduced to a realistic and necessary amount and I kinda felt like there was always something happening/being revealed. Drama was on a high level most of time and I liked the contrast to rather "innocent" stories to such a dark and disturbing Grail War. Ofc the big events/reveals with the Greater Holy Grail and such were part of it too, I think HF actually reveals the most to people who've already seen the Zero anime. Oh and lots of my fav characters getting the most screentime and being the most badass (Illya, Shirou, Kirei, Rin) together with great fights (I mean stuff like Shirou vs Dark Berserker, Shirou vs. Kotomine, Kotomine vs. True Assassin, etc). Maybe quite a bit of bias there, but I just loved the route from beginning to end.
About the voice patch... I guess it's coming at some point, I can see why you want to wait until then. I read Hollow Ataraxia without voices and while it was still really good voices just add a damn lot to the story. At the time I played HA the Vita version with the voices wasn't even released though, and I didn't want to wait for years possibly. Which reminds me, did you read Stay Night Realta Nua or the old release? I replayed the VN when Realta Nua finally had a patch because it adds new music and quite a lot of new CGs (even hidden ones the guy found in the data but which never made it into the actual VN). Also an overall improved version compared to the old release. Was really awesome again. Which reminds me, this was your first VN with H-scenes right? Well I guess you could disable them in the Realta Nua release, that's why I'm asking too xD If the H-content is removed with the patch it never gets explained that Sakura was raped by Shinji multiple times for example...
I get your opinion about Shirou, it's kinda unfair because he indeed has three different versions. Kiritsugu never had that "chance" to show us his different sides, so Shirou has a big advantage. As I see it, Shirou has all those sides within him and it's the events around him that heavily influence who he's turning out to be. Kinda reflects real life too, showing that humans can't be reduced to one side and that our surroundings influence us a lot, but that in the end we define who we are by ourselves. I definitely agree that UBW Shirou wouldn't make the choices he made in HF.
Ilya, Irisviel and Kiritsugu really would have deserved happiness yes ;__; It's pretty harsh that Ilya never really gets a happy ending, but I still like the HF conclusion with her sacrificing herself and being content with it. It really felt like she was happy with the time she spend with Shirou and others, so I still felt like she got what she wanted (a happy family...) even if it wasn't for long.
Yeah Zouken was a real asshole, though I kind of understood him at the end. He became so obsessed with eternal life that he stopped caring about anything else. Ofc that does not justify anything, but it means he wasn't necessarily evil, his extreme obsession formed him into the heartless villain he was in the end. Shinji is by far the biggest prick in the whole series, I think everyone loves to hate him. I get that he has an inferiority complex, but at no point did he actually start thinking about his actions. He's an incredibly egoistic and tragic human. He lacked the will and resolve to ever grow. When it was revealed that he raped Sakura countless times that really was the last straw. He got what he had coming, I actually was surprised that Sakura managed to endure this for so long. That's why I actually like Sakura. Yes she made a mistake by repressing her emotions/thoughts for way too long and not having the courage to be more open towards Shirou, but honestly who could actually blame her. Given up by her real mother and father, treated like shit and experimented on by her new grandfather, raped by her step-brother.... honestly just imagining all the pain she went through is hard enough, pretty much everyone would have snapped sooner or later. Redeeming herself after all she did is kinda hard, but I agree with Shirou that she has to atone through living. Make up for it with all you have and while you do enjoy the simple happiness you achieved. She at least deserves that much after all those years of pain and lonliness.
Yeah I think it's widely called the Normal Ending, because there really isn't much good about that ending... it's just cruel, so I was happy that she got her own little happiness in the end, like I explained above. Many people sacrificed a lot to achieve this result, so Shirou and Sakura deserve getting a share of happy memories too. I didn't cry at the normal end either, but still that got me right in the heart too, it's just too much of a cruel outcome D:
Regarding your thoughts:
- Ilya prolly yeah, but together with Sakura at least. Honestly I find dying actually a more comfortable thing when you have such a grandfather and brother. Just imagine the shit she prolly went through even after Fate and UBW....
- Shirou is awesome, yep! Like I told you, he certainly shines the most in the HF. One can only admire his willpower and the things he's willing to sacrifice for his love. You don't really have to agree with the choices he made, but you can definitely respect them and him as a character.
- Yeah, Nasu described the story like that too. Fate is living your ideal, UBW colliding with your ideal/coming to terms with it, and HF is facing reality. Something like that.
- I think killing of the servants so fast was fine, Fate and UBW already featured them a lot and revealed what was necessary. In that sense I kinda liked that the focus shifted so EXTREMELY from most servants to mainly the masters.
- Kotomine Kirei is one of my favs too, so glad he got all that attention in HF.
Okay I think I'm done.... this is one heck of a wall of text, so take your time XD
---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 PM ----------
And that's exactly why I'm not really interested at this point.... maybe I will get hyped again once I've read the new book, but before that I doubt it.
Did I finally found an avid VN reader like myself here on MH? 
I guess I do read VNs to an extent...let's see, I can only list 3
