Shounen [Webtoon] DICE by Yunhyunseok

[Impossibility]

At least Dongtae knows how to put on a show. However, this is only the first target and he's short on dice. It seems as though we're going to get tons of action during this arc, and we're going toget to see the different buffs and abilities available.

 

[kendama]

Well, chapter 96 is up.

I can already anticipate lots of unpleasant hostility against Eunjoo, so I guess I'll pass discussing it for now. At least Mio seems to be able to show her some understanding.

Dongtae's defeat of Samsusaeng was highly amusing and I was thrilled. This author manages fighting scenes waaaay above the average, in my opinion.

However, now things are looking south. No Dice, only partial recovery of his body, only one enemy defeated (and who knows if it is for good) and Hood just down the corridor wreaking mayhem. Choi-hyun may have come for the rescue, but that doesn't change the fact that Dongtae was very reckless. Not that he had any choice, I admit.

May I also point out that X is perfectly fine with Dongtae winning. So for all of his travails, he still fails at escaping the framework set by his puppeteer.

 

[Impossibility]

Unsurprisingly, Dongtae is vastly superior to most od the A-rankers out there. The issue is that it takes a whole lote more effort to defend a weak target than it takes to attack one. His dice are spent after only the first round, and he only managed to take a single out. I guess we're going to learn who is allies are very quickly, he doesn't stand a chance without them. Let's see where Choi Hyun stands.

 

[kendama]

Well, chapter 97 is out.

Air Gravity is probably a derivative of Psychokinesis. Gibaek, the fifth Dicer of Taebin's former group, who is supposed to be dead, is the one who had that Skill. However, that student was surprised at something in Hood's voice a few chapters ago, which makes me think the person is a girl.

If we connect this with Jihae's words on chapters 73-74 that "Muyoung is a different being" and her vision with Clairvoyance that Muyoung had several stats boxes instead of just one... maybe when you get that strange Die that an A-Ranker drops when they die, and absorb their skills, you incorporate the defeated A-Ranker's soul unto yourself.

It's a bit far-fetched, but maybe Muyoung has a way of spawning back the Dicers he defeated as puppets or something?

Air Gravity sure looks cool, but I wonder what real benefit it brings over Psychokinesis… well, the basic skill only seems to operate on inanimate objects, so being able to create shockwaves or whatever that Battle Mode skill does is probably useful.

I can't help chuckling at how dependent on Dongtae Hyunjo has become. He prefers staying by Dongtae's side even though Hood is sure to kiill him if Dongtae is defeated.

Frankly, I wonder why Mio is so keen on tailing Eunjoo. Whom she gives her Die to is her business alone and Mio has no right to stop her. Eunjoo has no reason to trust her more than Taebin, and from her point of view as a Non-Dicer being on Attack, Neutral or Defence is irrelevant: one's actions are what counts. But I am curious at the expression on Taebin's face: maybe he has seen someone behind the girls?

Chui-hyun is analysing the situation, probably in order to help Dongtae.

Well, can't wait for the next chapter.

 

[Impossibility]

There seems to be a whole lot of rash behaviour going on. Dongtae isn't in any position to be taking on even a half-decent A-ranker at this point.

Frankly, I wonder why Mio is so keen on tailing Eunjoo. Whom she gives her Die to is her business alone and Mio has no right to stop her. Eunjoo has no reason to trust her more than Taebin, and from her point of view as a Non-Dicer being on Attack, Neutral or Defence is irrelevant: one's actions are what counts. But I am curious at the expression on Taebin's face: maybe he has seen someone behind the girls?

Eh, considering that there's pretty much a war going on between the A-rankers, who Eunju gives her dice to is definitely Mio's concern. It's every A-ranker's concern. And considering how this conflict is affecting pretty much everyone else, it's everyone's concern. While she's trying to do what she perceives to be right, everyone else is trying to stay alive throughout this ever-expanding conflict. If Mio thinks Eunju's giving the dice to someone that might pose a threat, it'd be completely reasonable for her to decide to stop her. It would've taken little effort for Mio to take the dice from Eunju and increase her own and the Defence team's ability to complete their tasks and protect those around them, some would say that would've been a completely justified act. How Eunju feels is important only for as long as those around her tolerate it. It's a weapon that is almost certainly going to come into play at some point, whether Eunju uses it, has it taken from her, or hands it over to someone else. The idea of prioritising Eunju's 'right' to decide the fate of a weapon she took off some dead body in the face of the potential effects this dice can have is actually ridiculous when you put it in perspective.

 

[kendama]

Spoiler

Eh, considering that there's pretty much a war going on between the A-rankers, who Eunju gives her dice to is definitely Mio's concern. It's every A-ranker's concern. And considering how this conflict is affecting pretty much everyone else, it's everyone's concern. While she's trying to do what she perceives to be right, everyone else is trying to stay alive throughout this ever-expanding conflict. If Mio thinks Eunju's giving the dice to someone that might pose a threat, it'd be completely reasonable for her to decide to stop her. It would've taken little effort for Mio to take the dice from Eunju and increase her own and the Defence team's ability to complete their tasks and protect those around them, some would say that would've been a completely justified act. How Eunju feels is important only for as long as those around her tolerate it. It's a weapon that is almost certainly going to come into play at some point, whether Eunju uses it, has it taken from her, or hands it over to someone else. The idea of prioritising Eunju's 'right' to decide the fate of a weapon she took off some dead body in the face of the potential effects this dice can have is actually ridiculous when you put it in perspective.

Of course you are right.

Then again, I was trying to see things from Eunjoo's perspective. In her eyes i) it's by no means clear that Mio and Dongtae are the best option to ensure survival (of whom?, to begin with); ii) Mio stopping Eunjoo based on her own judgement of what is a threat is definitely a selfish decision in that Mio believes she is the one who can make that judgement.

But you are right. This is ultimately a matter of power: Mio can stop Eunjoo, and there is nothing Eunjoo can do to stop her. So morality, or protecting people, or having or not having a plan to stop X, has little to do with the decision to seize Eunjoo's Dice.

Much store is set on the decision to belong to a team, but there's the catch: while belonging to a team means fulfilling the role apportioned by X in exchange for a reward, A-Rankers can have agendas of their own and decide to protect people while being Neutral or even in Attack (team-killing, anyone?). Given that Attack can earn Dice from defeating other Dicers during the quest and Defence cannot, I personally would find belonging to Attack the better option to protect the school.

In other words, especially from the point of view of Eunjoo that all Dicers are playing to X's tune, the decision of protecting people has nothing to do with which team one belongs to. Mio has the "right" (in that she has the might) to seize Eunjoo's Die to ensure her own and Dongtae's survival... just as Eunjoo has the "right" (if she is tolerated to do it as you put it) to give it to Taebin if she believes this is the best way to have a shot at defeating X or if her own judgement says it is the right thing to do.

So I would contend that the very idea of prioritising someone's right is, forgive me, ridiculous. The priority is in the power. If we could choose a truly impartial, detached judge of what is moral and what is right - which is impossible -, the natural rights to dispose of one's property as one sees fit would certainly take precedence over vague considerations like what is practical - something neither Mio nor Dongtae are in any position to judge. (Neither is Eunjoo, of course, but the Die is hers: even X said so.)

This sentence of yours is curious: "While she's trying to do what she perceives to be right, everyone else is trying to stay alive throughout this ever-expanding conflict." (emphasis mine)

So I suppose Eunjoo is not thinking of her own survival, or that it is not as important a consideration as everyone else's survival. Because you know, if we rewind the clock a little, heeding Eunjoo's opinion on Dice would have been the best option for "survival" (more on that later).

If you still think I am beating around the bush, let's take your opening lines: "considering that there's pretty much a war going on between the A-rankers, who Eunju gives her dice to is definitely Mio's concern. It's every A-ranker's concern. And considering how this conflict is affecting pretty much everyone else, it's everyone's concern."

This is only trivially true. It's the same as saying that when a house is burning, what the neighbour decides to do with their water hose is everyone's concern. However, this is also true of all Dice in everyone's possession, include the ones that can be seized by killing the person. If it is okay to seize Eunjoo's Dice to ensure people's survival, why, the best option would be for the B-Rankers to round up all A-Rankers they can find and restrain them. Or to offer Taebin on a silver platter to Hood. These may be more extreme actions, but they would certainly be more effective than changing the possession of a single Die, even more so because X can easily make things much bloodier regardless.

Since arbitrary acts - or any acts to be honest - cannot be justified a posteriori, if Mio decides to seize Eunjoo's Dice, it will be because she wants to, not because she is in any position to decide - judiciously or otherwise - what is the best course of action for dealing with her Cloaking Die. After all, if we go by what you say and Mio decides to take Eunjoo's Die, and later something bad happens because of this decision, your reasoning suggests Mio would be at fault. But this is nonsense, and so the opposite - not seizing Eunjoo's Die and this later leading to a good outcome - also wouldn't vindicate my contention that Eunjoo has the "right" to do what she wants with her Die. The issues are not connected at all.

I'll leave aside the fact that seizing a Die from someone against their will is no trivial business. We all know what happened when Taebin tried to do it to Dongtae in chapter four. In the present case, the gap in power between Mio and Eunjoo is even smaller. Do you really think things would go smoothly?

Incidentally, I doubt Eunjoo is thinking along these lines, but surely, given what you are saying about how impulsive and naïve Dongtae is, giving her Die to a person who has no Dice points to activate either Skill, or to a girl whose main skill is Defensive and not Offensive, would be the height of folly in my opinion.

And if one contends that Dongtae at least is doing something to protect the school while Taebin is just sitting around - indeed, one would have a point. I'm not saying that giving the Die to Taebin would be the better option. And that is, so far as we know, not what Eunjoo is chasing him for: she wants "to ask him something". Then again, neither Eunjoo nor Mio have the knowledge of Hood's true intentions (killing people until Taebin shows himself). From Eunjoo's point of view, this may well be another event orchestrated by X, and in any case Dicers have brought this upon themselves, Dongtae included. So there is no categorical imperative that Eunjoo ought to give her Die to Dongtae, at least as of now.

And since we're dealing in the matter of survival, I return to my previous question: survival of whom? Let's consider possible answers:

1) Of oneself

This is useful because it is no-nonsense. When considering self-integrity, one can decide on things in a straightforward manner. For Mio, seizing Eunjoo's Die is a no-brainer, since there is no other way of earning Dice for Defence during the War. But you seize her Dice and then... what? There are still seven Dicers on Attack, and four quests to go.

From Eunjoo's point of view, her survival would be much more assured if she surrendered her Dice to an A-Ranker peacefully in exchange for being spared (and who would kill a Non-Dicer just for the heck of it?). The second best option would be to find a strong A-Ranker who would be willing to offer her protection, for sentimental or practical reasons. Right now, the best one is Taebin. And the third option would be to become an A-Ranker and using the remaining Dice points to become invisible when needed.

2) Of oneself and the ones that are precious to one

For Mio, nothing changes here. However, she doesn't know it, but giving Dongtae a Cloaking Die will make him a direct target to Muyoung, which he isn't right now.

For Eunjoo... ditto.

3) Of as many people as possible

Things get murkier, but from Mio's point of view, helping Dongtae is the best route. Whether stealing Eunjoo's Die contributes to that end is debatable, but I'm sure Mio could reasonably come to that conclusion.

For Eunjoo... it's anyone's guess as of now.

So I stand by what I said. Eunjoo is not wrong, and Mio is not right. Add might to the equation, and any outcome becomes possible.

Chapter 98 is out (much easier to edit than the average, that's why).

Whew, at least someone has a brain in this series. Congratulations, Eunju and Che-hyun!

Dongtae, incurable fool as he is, repeatedly asks a hooded person who they are. Dongtae. If the person is hooded, they don't want to reveal their identity to begin with. Oh well, I'll peg it to stalling tactics, but he isn't very good even at that. Well, at least he has begun to think a little about the night he got the Die. Better late than never.

Contrast that to Eunju. She wants to confirm Hood's identity and what does she do? Obviously she goes to the person who knows Mooyoung and asks him about it.

As for Che-hyun, I fully believe he is lying about having chosen Attack by accident (Dongtae got that one right). I believe he did it either to team-kill his group, or to pretend to help Dongtae to win so he can eliminate A-Rank competitors only to turn on Dongtae later when he exhausts his usefulness. Both possibilities are very clever strategies.

Well, he is giving Dongtae three ordinary Dice and a store item (a sledgehammer?), so that will give Dongtae the upper hand against Hood. (Wouldn't it be fun if Hyunjo caught a Die now?)

The most he can get of Time Pause will be three minutes, in the unlikely event he gets a triple six. However, that's a lot for such a powerful skill.

We have the minor cliffhanger of what Taebin is planning to do (see, Mio and Dongtae? Try to have a plan for a change, instead of relying on plot armour!) and the greater one of who the next target is. I would love it if X chose the teachers as a collective target, even more so because that would force Professor Kim to make a move!

Cannot wait for the next chapter!

 

[Impossibility]

I honestly try to overlook Dongtae's stupidity. He seems to be under the impression that he's entitled to answers from everyone. As for Choi Hyun, I don't thin anyone believes his story for a second. However, he does seem to be on Dongtae's side, at least for the moment.

 

[kendama]

Chapter 99 is out. My typesetting improved! \o/

This chapter clarifies one thing about Eunju I wasn't sure about. I thought she had already concluded, from the events of chapter 67, that Taebin is a Dicer, and later that she had reasoned he must be an A-Ranker, too. It was pretty decent of her to get confirmation from him personally.

I have been able to predict Eunju-haters reactions accurately for a while. I bet they will accuse her of stupidity for not having realised this sooner.

But in my view, such accusation is unwarranted. Why? Because Dongtae provided Taebin with a rock-solid alibi. When he "confessed" to having spread the Dice, he deflected any suspicion Eunju might have about Taebin. Any doubt she might have would have been wiped away by Dongtae's admission of fault. Until chapter 67, nothing in Taebin's behaviour could have rekindled old suspicions, and she had no reason to ask him anything because the matter seemed settled.

Some may also accuse Taebin of having lied to Eunju. This is also accurate. Most of the time he only committed ommission, and Eunju wasn't asking questions because of what I said above. There was one moment, though, when he told a lie: it was in the music room incident when Dice materialised in their presence and Taebin evaded inquiry by saying he was "not sure" about whether there were Dicers in the room.

However, before people who think Taebin is a bastard because of this (and in my previous comments I have exposed many of reasons why I do think he is for other reasons), may I point out that his concealment of his Dicership was fully equal to Dongtae's. People cut Dongtae lots of slack because he divulged his Dicership to the world, but he was pressed by circumstances, and he only admitted it to Eunju because she asked it directly to him when both were under extreme pressure… something she never did to Taebin.

So as far as his Dicership is regarded, I don't think Taebin has done much worse than Dongtae. Marginally worse because he was Eunju's boyfriend, but both Dicers are very hypocritical on thinking that Dicership is a good thing, while at the same time they were ashamed of admitting it to Eunju, and even worse, Dongtae was at a point shocked at the idea that Eunju could become a Dicer, without realising the contradiction in his behaviour. But I've said all that before.

I'm also expecting Eunju haters to roll their eyes up in disgust about her crying and apologising… just as they would have had she asked Taebin to restore their relationship. They will overlook the fact that she wants to apologise to Dongtae (and I'm not sure I agree she needs to) and will concentrate on her "pathetic sobbing" while everyone else is fighting. I expect them to praise Mio's level-headedness, too. I don't really have time for that nonsense.

But I am curious about Mio's face when Eunju says she needs to apologise to Dongtae properly. I can see two explanations:

i. Mio may be afraid that by apologising Eunju may begin to get closer to Dongtae. In other words, Mio may have agreed to Dongtae's decision to sort things out with Eunju in principle, but is now insecure that if Eunju's apology is added to the mixture, the outcome of the conversation may be different from what she expected. I can understand her jealousy, but if this is what is going through her mind, I can only be sad at her insecurity and the poor idea she makes of Dongtae's feelings. It seems Dice can make her beautiful, but not confident.

ii. Mio may be annoyed that Eunju still thinks she needs to apologise for having thought Dongtae was to blame for having let the Dice spread, as if the spread itself were a bad thing. I really hope that's not it, because if it is I'll add Mio to the gallery of deluded fools along with Dongtae. How can she still think the unrestrained spread of Dice has been a good thing?

And this brings us to what I have been saying all along: Dice represent corrupting power. Their very existence, even X discounted, is pernicious by definition. This is aggravated by the fact that the whole notion that the spread of Dice is inevitable - that the current events are the repetition of a cycle - becomes clear. No matter how much Taebin or anyone else avoids doing it, X will always sneak in an occasion that will cause another Dicer, a naïve one who doesn't know the dangers, come into being. That's the significance of the events in chapter four: X created a task for Taebin that included an opportunity for Dongtae to lay his hands on a Die.

Now, I don't buy any of the time-travelling, "Hood is Eunju" or "Mooyoung is Dongtae" theories, but I do think older Dicers like Hood, Mooyoung and Taebin are aware of the cyclical nature of Dicers' life.

In other words, again Eunju is the one who got it right: being a Dicer changes one's way of life. Instead of moving forward, Dicers live a life of constant ordeals and threats, and eventually loop back into situations similar to where they began. They are trapped either by their own spiralling desires, like Mooyoung, or by the need to defend themselves from the others. (I don't think even Eunju sees the whole picture yet, because she doesn't know of Taebin's past circumstances, but it is to her merit that she is the only person currently trying to understand Mooyoung, instead of wasting Dice attacking Hood without a plan.)

Now, can someone explain why the ceiling collapsed? (I realise now I ought to have corrected "roof" to "ceiling" while I was proofreading.) Are we to assume this happened because of Air Gravity? Or are other A-Rankers trying to earn points by upping the ante in vandalism?

Dongtae's strategy may be hopelessly naïve, but his tactics are decent… at least for the immediate goal of getting the students to evacuate. But I wonder whether he can defeat Hood this easily. Well, we shall see.

I can't wait for the next chapter!

 

[Impossibility]

You know you're far too fixated on readers who aren't particularly fond of Eunju.... and make some serious assumptions about them. I don't like Eunju, however, I don't think she's an idiot for failing to conclude that Taebin was a dicer. I think certain types of people would've identified Taebin as a dicer ages ago, Eunju just isn't one of them. As for her apology, it was appropriate. Quite frankly, it's one of the few moments that I've liked Eunju. And the difference between Mio and Eunju's handling of the situation stems from their differing missions. Eunju is on a moral crusade and Mio is trying to keep herself and those around her amongst the living; they've completely different priorities. That's where my issue with Eunju, at least within this arc, begins. She's been so fixated on her moral perspective, whether right or wrong, that she ignores the reality unfolding her around her. It seems that in this chapter she realises that world is turning and dicers are continuing to wreak havoc, and that people sort of have to deal with that in the now.

Now, to the important bit of the chapter.... Dongtae probably made the best decision. It's not as though his standard time pause has found itself overwhelmed by any of the other enhanced abilities yet, so it makes sense, when there are lives on the line, to avoid taking the risk. That being said, I wanted him to give it a try simply because I want to see how ridiculous an enhanced time pause is.

 

[kendama]

You know you're far too fixated on readers who aren't particularly fond of Eunju.... and make some serious assumptions about them. I don't like Eunju, however, I don't think she's an idiot for failing to conclude that Taebin was a dicer. I think certain types of people would've identified Taebin as a dicer ages ago, Eunju just isn't one of them. As for her apology, it was appropriate. Quite frankly, it's one of the few moments that I've liked Eunju. And the difference between Mio and Eunju's handling of the situation stems from their differing missions. Eunju is on a moral crusade and Mio is trying to keep herself and those around her amongst the living; they've completely different priorities. That's where my issue with Eunju, at least within this arc, begins. She's been so fixated on her moral perspective, whether right or wrong, that she ignores the reality unfolding her around her. It seems that in this chapter she realises that world is turning and dicers are continuing to wreak havoc, and that people sort of have to deal with that in the now.

You misread me. I was specifically referring to Eunju haters - the kind of people who don't like her on reflex and do nothing but pour vitriol on her anytime they see her. You have exposed your reasons and you seem to have a measured assessment of her and a clear rationale behind it. It is different from those who spew "Eunju that (insert four-letter word)! I wish she would just DIE!!!" They are, sadly, a majority, as you will easily ascertain if you only browse the comment sections as I do. I have said before: the pattern of hatred I see of Eunju paints a very ugly picture of human nature. But I've written far too much on that: I've thoroughly analysed patterns of Eunju dislike (hatred and otherwise), developed a classification system (in a comment section and at Dicescans, if you are interested) and am pretty sure to have done everyone justice and not left anyone out.

As for identifying Taebin's true nature, I agree with you, although we may disagree what that "certain type of people" would be: in my view, distrustful people who suspect others easily. After Dongtae's admission speech, only those kinds of people would still entertain doubts. It's not a matter of intelligence or insight, in my opinion. But let's leave the matter as is, as it has no importance.

As for the apology, the reason I think it may not be appropriate is that there is a fundamental difference in Dongtae's and Taebin's "guilt" for the spread of Dice. By that I already state that both are responsible.

i. Taebin is responsible for not having given Dongtae important info on Dice and Dicership back in chapter four. Jammin and I discussed that many comments ago. In that sense, even though he was wise enough to avoid spreading Dice, in the one moment when an intervention of his could have prevented the worst, he didn't do anything.

ii. Dongtae is the one who really effected the spread, and although he had no evil intent, he certainly is to blame. That is a distinction made much of in courts of law. I have also discussed this, but in Arendtian fashion, what Dongtae failed to do was thinking. It's not as bad as Taebin, and certainly not as X, who set the trap, but Dongtae is the source of everything that is happening.

Eunju doesn't know any of that, and we could say that you are correct that given what she knows, she is right to feel she owes Dongtae an apology. But as readers, we know better. It is to her merit - not that she needs any more merits, or that she was under any suspicion of lacking in this - that she acknowledges her mistakes, and it's not the first time she apologises to Dongtae (for example, the Light & Shadow Arc).

As for what Mio and Eunju's missions are, I believe you have jumped to conclusions, at least regarding Eunju. Mio's role, uninteresting as I find it, is pretty much obvious.

However, you seem to have assumed that Eunju is there intent on morally enlightening people or entering a personal moral quest of martyrdom by opposing X with only her willpower.

I don't think any of her behaviour so far lends credence to that, if that is what you are thinking. Eunju's reasons to have even gone to the school are pretty mundane: she wants to understand more about the entity that is threatening her life, and to sort things out with Taebin.

(We had a discussion a while ago about whether X could force Eunju to go to the school. He couldn't. Eunju could have pretended to walk towards the school until the last minute, and X wouldn't have time to send Dicers after her, especially because he set a barrier around the school - and had to do it to stop targets from trying to escape or call for help. It's also very unlikely Dicers would obey, because in their minds the potential rewards of staying in the school would outweigh any plain Dice reward X might set. Besides, there are no normal Quests in the PVP stage.)

She is not ignoring reality. She doesn't do anything about the Quest because she is powerless to do so. Her actions do not threaten anyone but herself, and since the only thing that can happen that will involve other people is her becoming X's target (which she has no power to avoid), where she decides to go and what she decides to do are of no consequence.

Because you know, you do her a great injustice by saying that she realised only in this chapter that "world is turning and dicers are continuing to wreak havoc, and that people sort of have to deal with that in the now." After all, she warned against precisely that in her rooftop speech almost 60 chapters ago ("So it's okay if you hurt each other because of Dice?"), at a time when Dongtae still thought Dice were a good influence in the world (and frankly, I'm not sure he is divorced from that notion quite yet). As for "dealing with that", why, it's none of her business, even more so because there is nothing she can do.

(I hope you are not thinking that she ought to use the Dice she has, because that discussion is already over in my mind, we had it quite a while ago. As for giving them to someone, I have already discussed that. Suffice it to say that it is her announced plan from the beginning.)

As for Mio, well, she is just the bread-and-butter action heroine we see in this kind of series. She is doing the obvious, thinking the obvious and saying the obvious. I have never gotten any particularly interesting insights from her, other than the realisation that Dongtae's guild was an utopia (her shining moment so far). She has the tools and power to protect herself and other people, and it is admirable she is putting them to use cleverly, but if she really had a plan she would be using her skill to aid Dongtae in the frontline (Hood's identity would be one problem the fewer if she only did that). On the matters of being a puppet of X's, and of the implications of Dice, she is as clueless as Dongtae. Besides, she is in Defence: she took to herself the job of protecting the school, which Eunju couldn't and can't, so comparing their roles is like comparing apples and oranges. Her nonsense of "protecting our beliefs" from a few chapters ago actually made me smile sadly, because I have never seen a firm belief from Mio in the course of this story, whereas Eunju has one or two things to teach others about tenacity and firm beliefs.

You seem to think that moral crusades are not useful or interesting. I beg to differ. In my view, if people had taken solid moral stances in certain occasions in history, the world wouldn't be as warped as it is now. (And we could go philosophical from here.) I'm not saying that Eunju is in one, but keeping your moral north, which she does, and backing it up with serious reflections on the meaning of one's decisions and actions, which Dongtae doesn't, are needed to know how to position oneself in situations that put human nature to the test. On that, Eunju gets a perfect score; the others are found lacking and are now reaping the storm they have seeded. Mio and Dongtae can do as much damage control as they want. And well they should, because Dongtae spread the Dice and Mio had an active role in distributing them. But it is becoming clear that they are stuck in a loop. To break out, they need a moral realisation followed by understanding of the circumstances around X and Dice. In that sense, the irony is on them, because not being a Dicer, Eunju is much closer to that than they are.

DICE is a moral tale, and it is only fair that it contains a character who hasn't lost her moral compass.

 

[Impossibility]

This is a pretty long response, so I'm going to address the things I take most issue with.

However, you seem to have assumed that Eunju is there intent on morally enlightening people or entering a personal moral quest of martyrdom by opposing X with only her willpower.

I don't think any of her behaviour so far lends credence to that, if that is what you are thinking. Eunju's reasons to have even gone to the school are pretty mundane: she wants to understand more about the entity that is threatening her life, and to sort things out with Taebin.

Eunju's concerns are primarily moral, that's been her role in the story. That's what she's dedicated to. She went to school because that's what she does, she's a student. I don't think any reasonable person would assign some other sort of motive for that. The issue is what she did in the context of the game currently ongoing; that includes running around with a dice.

(We had a discussion a while ago about whether X could force Eunju to go to the school. He couldn't. Eunju could have pretended to walk towards the school until the last minute, and X wouldn't have time to send Dicers after her, especially because he set a barrier around the school - and had to do it to stop targets from trying to escape or call for help. It's also very unlikely Dicers would obey, because in their minds the potential rewards of staying in the school would outweigh any plain Dice reward X might set. Besides, there are no normal Quests in the PVP stage.)

Quite frankly, if X simply wanted rid of her, she'd probably be gone already. Pretending as though Eunju is somehow out of his reach is wishful thinking.

She is not ignoring reality. She doesn't do anything about the Quest because she is powerless to do so. Her actions do not threaten anyone but herself, and since the only thing that can happen that will involve other people is her becoming X's target (which she has no power to avoid), where she decides to go and what she decides to do are of no consequence.

Because you know, you do her a great injustice by saying that she realised only in this chapter that "world is turning and dicers are continuing to wreak havoc, and that people sort of have to deal with that in the now." After all, she warned against precisely that in her rooftop speech almost 60 chapters ago ("So it's okay if you hurt each other because of Dice?"), at a time when Dongtae still thought Dice were a good influence in the world (and frankly, I'm not sure he is divorced from that notion quite yet). As for "dealing with that", why, it's none of her business, even more so because there is nothing she can do.

I made this point last week, she's in possession of an A-rank dice. What she does has the potential to affect everyone. She isn't just a bystander, she ceased to qualify for that designation when she made the conscious decision to pick up that dice, regardless of her reasons for it.

You seem to think that moral crusades are not useful or interesting. I beg to differ. In my view, if people had taken solid moral stances in certain occasions in history, the world wouldn't be as warped as it is now. (And we could go philosophical from here.) I'm not saying that Eunju is in one, but keeping your moral north, which she does, and backing it up with serious reflections on the meaning of one's decisions and actions, which Dongtae doesn't, are needed to know how to position oneself in situations that put human nature to the test. On that, Eunju gets a perfect score; the others are found lacking and are now reaping the storm they have seeded. Mio and Dongtae can do as much damage control as they want. And well they should, because Dongtae spread the Dice and Mio had an active role in distributing them. But it is becoming clear that they are stuck in a loop. To break out, they need a moral realisation followed by understanding of the circumstances around X and Dice. In that sense, the irony is on them, because not being a Dicer, Eunju is much closer to that than they are.

I don't disagree with much of the sentiment. However, we're far past the point where anything other than a hard solution is going to solve this problem. We've been past that point for ages. Her righteousness might keep her warm, it definitely isn't going to keep her or those around her alive though. Taebin, Dongtae, Mio, and apparently even Choi Hyun are doing that under threat to life. She's just casually wandering around with something that could make their jobs that much more difficult because she had other concerns.

 

[kendama]

Eunju's concerns are primarily moral, that's been her role in the story. That's what she's dedicated to. She went to school because that's what she does, she's a student. I don't think any reasonable person would assign some other sort of motive for that. The issue is what she did in the context of the game currently ongoing; that includes running around with a dice.

Forgive me, but if you knew a horrible event in which people are going to die is going to take place in your school, I doubt you'd go just because "you are a student". Frankly, you are not the first one to tell me she is going by inertia and I consider that pretty much absurd. After all, she failed to show up in school in the day Miju and Sungchul fought. If the categorical imperative of going to school were that pressing, she would have left them to themselves.

At least I like to think a careful author will imbue their characters' actions with meaning. For a non-Dicer, not going to school would definitely be a consideration. If you don't think so, let's stop here and agree to disagree.

Quite frankly, if X simply wanted rid of her, she'd probably be gone already. Pretending as though Eunju is somehow out of his reach is wishful thinking.

But this has not the faintest connection to what I was saying. Of course X can destroy Eunju any moment he wants, and I have never denied that. I am just saying that Eunju is not devoid of agency, and she would have had the option of foiling X's plans for her by not showing up. Whether he would have sent a pack of Dicers to kill her afterwards is a moot point.

And when I say she is "out of his reach", I meant it metaphorically, as I am sure you understand. Just as the Devil had no power over Job in the Old Testament tale. He killed his family and covered him with disease, but couldn't move him in his faith. I am not religious and so avoid this kind of analogy, but in this case I think it is fitting.

I made this point last week, she's in possession of an A-rank dice. What she does has the potential to affect everyone. She isn't just a bystander, she ceased to qualify for that designation when she made the conscious decision to pick up that dice, regardless of her reasons for it.

Nope, that's the false dilemma fallacy. Eunju has no a priori moral responsibility towards Dicers. She is completely entitled to inaction should she choose so. If she wanted to throw the Dice she has in the toilet seat and flush them down, she wouldn't be to blame. (Considering that Mooyoung needs a Cloaking Die, that might even help in the long term. And no, I haven't forgotten about Daewoong.)

The very notion an action she committed in the past implies an imperative to act in the course of events that presented themselves after that action took place is absurd no matter how you cut it.

She is fully free of impediments to dispose of her Dice the way she wishes. I have also explained that last week, and since it seems we haven't budged from our points of view, I suggest we let the matter rest.

I don't disagree with much of the sentiment. However, we're far past the point where anything other than a hard solution is going to solve this problem. We've been past that point for ages. Her righteousness might keep her warm, it definitely isn't going to keep her or those around her alive though. Taebin, Dongtae, Mio, and apparently even Choi Hyun are doing that under threat to life. She's just casually wandering around with something that could make their jobs that much more difficult because she had other concerns.

That's the point: you seem to think that Taebin, Dongtae, Mio and any other allies that might show up have "right" on their side. And you are correct in believing that locally, i.e. that their actions do seem to contribute to their immediate survival. However, unless they break out of the loop X has woven, and that requires a moral realisation, they are just modern iterations of Sysyphus.

You are right that in the heat of the moment, it seems rational for Eunju to cooperate with them, and I believe now her own matters of interest have been solved, she just might. And frankly, I don't see any of her actions so far as obstructing theirs. I mean, Mio is the only one who knows Eunju has the A-Rank Die. She cannot protect Eunju from a Clairvoyant. If X decides to make Eunju into a target, whether they are cossetted in the auditorium or not will not make the slightest difference. However, from Eunju's point of view, the only thing she needs to protect is herself, and that is for her to decide how to. If you mean to suggest that Eunju should just hand over her Die to Mio already, why, let Mio ask, then. Explain your rationale to Eunju, I say, tell her the Cloaking Die is important for... what? What exactly are they trying to accomplish?

I wonder what your "hard solution" is. In the end of the day, from among the survivors, A-Rankers will resume PVP fighting (in worse conditions than before as the losers will have had their covers blown), so will B-Rankers, and X will remain in full control.

If Eunju decides to remain righteous, and dies in the process, she has earned that right by the very fact that she has made all the right decisions so far. That "warmth" you talk of dismissively is precisely the thing that the others lack. And I would venture to say that they are in much greater risk of dying than she (as they are targets), and if they do die, they will lack that warmth in the very end.

 

[Impossibility]

Forgive me, but if you knew a horrible event in which people are going to die is going to take place in your school, I doubt you'd go just because "you are a student". Frankly, you are not the first one to tell me she is going by inertia and I consider that pretty much absurd. After all, she failed to show up in school in the day Miju and Sungchul fought. If the categorical imperative of going to school were that pressing, she would have left them to themselves.

At least I like to think a careful author will imbue their characters' actions with meaning. For a non-Dicer, not going to school would definitely be a consideration. If you don't think so, let's stop here and agree to disagree.

She showed up because that's what she does. She didn't go out of her way to attend school. That's the only point I was making.

But this has not the faintest connection to what I was saying. Of course X can destroy Eunju any moment he wants, and I have never denied that. I am just saying that Eunju is not devoid of agency, and she would have had the option of foiling X's plans for her by not showing up. Whether he would have sent a pack of Dicers to kill her afterwards is a moot point.

What exactly was the point of the multi-line aside then? And your previous post was littered with comments about how powerless she was, so why is foiling X's plan an option now?

And when I say she is "out of his reach", I meant it metaphorically, as I am sure you understand. Just as the Devil had no power over Job in the Old Testament tale. He killed his family and covered him with disease, but couldn't move him in his faith. I am not religious and so avoid this kind of analogy, but in this case I think it is fitting.

That I might agree with. Although, it pretty much remains an ongoing struggle.

Nope, that's the false dilemma fallacy. Eunju has no a priori moral responsibility towards Dicers. She is completely entitled to inaction should she choose so. If she wanted to throw the Dice she has in the toilet seat and flush them down, she wouldn't be to blame. (Considering that Mooyoung needs a Cloaking Die, that might even help in the long term. And no, I haven't forgotten about Daewoong.)

The very notion an action she committed in the past implies an imperative to act in the course of events that presented themselves after that action took place is absurd no matter how you cut it.

She is fully free of impediments to dispose of her Dice the way she wishes. I have also explained that last week, and since it seems we haven't budged from our points of view, I suggest we let the matter rest.

What false dilemma? What does this have to do with anything? First she's powerless, now she just doesn't have any responsibility? It's pretty ridiculous to argue endlessly for the piousness of a character, and then somehow drag up a lack of moral responsibility as a factor that somehow magically negates the effects of her actions. Whether you feel she has a moral responsibility to anyone does not in any way change the fact that her actions have an effect on them. Not even the slightest bit.

That's the point: you seem to think that Taebin, Dongtae, Mio and any other allies that might show up have "right" on their side. And you are correct in believing that locally, i.e. that their actions do seem to contribute to their immediate survival. However, unless they break out of the loop X has woven, and that requires a moral realisation, they are just modern iterations of Sysyphus.

To break out of the loop would surely require them to survive, wouldn't it?

You are right that in the heat of the moment, it seems rational for Eunju to cooperate with them, and I believe now her own matters of interest have been solved, she just might. And frankly, I don't see any of her actions so far as obstructing theirs. I mean, Mio is the only one who knows Eunju has the A-Rank Die. She cannot protect Eunju from a Clairvoyant. If X decides to make Eunju into a target, whether they are cossetted in the auditorium or not will not make the slightest difference. However, from Eunju's point of view, the only thing she needs to protect is herself, and that is for her to decide how to. If you mean to suggest that Eunju should just hand over her Die to Mio already, why, let Mio ask, then. Explain your rationale to Eunju, I say, tell her the Cloaking Die is important for... what? What exactly are they trying to accomplish?

I didn't say that her actions had obstructed them, I just stated the obvious, which is that they have the potential to. She isn't uninvolved. What her right is isn't something I commented on. It's entirely irrelevant, and, quite frankly, if that's the standard by which characters are judged, I imagine you'd have a lot less to say about the other characters. You seem to be interested in discussing what should be, I'm pointing out what is. She is involved, her actions do affect those around her.

If Eunju decides to remain righteous, and dies in the process, she has earned that right by the very fact that she has made all the right decisions so far. That "warmth" you talk of dismissively is precisely the thing that the others lack. And I would venture to say that they are in much greater risk of dying than she (as they are targets), and if they do die, they will lack that warmth in the very end.

If her only concern is to remain righteous, that's easy. She certainly doesn't need to be a part of the plot to do so.

 

[kendama]

She showed up because that's what she does. She didn't go out of her way to attend school. That's the only point I was making.

Rather moot, then, and still implies inertia. We agree to disagree.

What exactly was the point of the multi-line aside then? And your previous post was littered with comments about how powerless she was, so why is foiling X's plan an option now?

The aside was specifically about attending school. This is about her general condition vis-à-vis X. There is no contradiction.

And she is powerless now, to interfere in the course of events. But it's not a foregone conclusion that she cannot learn, or realise, or somehow acquire the means to do so. Which is hardly to be accomplished by playing by his rules.

What false dilemma? What does this have to do with anything? First she's powerless, now she just doesn't have any responsibility? It's pretty ridiculous to argue endlessly for the piousness of a character, and then somehow drag up a lack of moral responsibility as a factor that somehow magically negates the effects of her actions. Whether you feel she has a moral responsibility to anyone does not in any way change the fact that her actions have an effect on them. Not even the slightest bit.

The false dilemma fallacy: "a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which only limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option."

As in, "Eunju had either to refuse picking the Die, and thus be no bystander", or "to pick the Die and be a bystander". And that was what you said. But she can perfectly decide to stay out of this until the very end, take no sides and she would still bear no blame for a situation not of her making. Being a bystander is her judgement to make. If she has to react to others' actions, that is another story.

Of course her actions have an effect. But that doesn't mean she has to take any decision as long as events don't target her personally. And it is also not a foregone conclusion that she must cooperate with Dongtae and the others. So she can pursue her own concerns as much as she wants.

To break out of the loop would surely require them to survive, wouldn't it?

Sure it would, but Eunju's survival is not necessarily connected with theirs, and so her decisions must not lean towards cooperation with them. If she decides to, as I think she ought to, that's not because of a categorical imperative exists in that direction.

I didn't say that her actions had obstructed them, I just stated the obvious, which is that they have the potential to. She isn't uninvolved. What her right is isn't something I commented on. It's entirely irrelevant, and, quite frankly, if that's the standard by which characters are judged, I imagine you'd have a lot less to say about the other characters. You seem to be interested in discussing what should be, I'm pointing out what is. She is involved, her actions do affect those around her.

What is, is before our eyes. But I'm not interested in what ought to be (you've just stumbled upon David Hume's philosophy, by the way). I'm interested in understanding whether Eunju's behaviour so far during the quest is justifiable. And I am saying it is. You seem to be saying that Eunju's actions are untenable, and that Mio is right in trying to stop her from going after Taebin or anywhere of her choosing. Of course her actions have the potential to obstruct them, but until they do, this shouldn't be a part of our discussion. After all, she can also do something, or understand something, that helps them. In other words, there is no clear course of action that she ought to take now.

If her only concern is to remain righteous, that's easy. She certainly doesn't need to be a part of the plot to do so.

True. And that she chose to be, and the author made her the heroine, certainly carries meaning, although we might disagree what this meaning is.

 

[Impossibility]

The false dilemma fallacy: "a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which only limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option."

As in, "Eunju had either to refuse picking the Die, and thus be no bystander", or "to pick the Die and be a bystander". And that was what you said. But she can perfectly decide to stay out of this until the very end, take no sides and she would still bear no blame for a situation not of her making. Being a bystander is her judgement to make. If she has to react to others' actions, that is another story.

Of course her actions have an effect. But that doesn't mean she has to take any decision as long as events don't target her personally. And it is also not a foregone conclusion that she must cooperate with Dongtae and the others. So she can pursue her own concerns as much as she wants.

There isn't any false dilemma. By picking the Dice, she ceased to be a bystander. She made the conscious decision to involve herself in the war, regardless of whether she herself takes up arms. And once again, for someone almost entirely concerned about the morality of this tale, you're pointing to the right to choose a whole lot recently...and I haven't once challenged that idea.

Sure it would, but Eunju's survival is not necessarily connected with theirs, and so her decisions must not lean towards cooperation with them. If she decides to, as I think she ought to, that's not because of a categorical imperative exists in that direction.

Considering her history, I'd say their survival significantly increases the chances of her own. Quite frankly, I'd say it's very nearly dependent upon it. As you've pointed, she's completely powerless...and rather unpopular with all the wrong people.

What is, is before our eyes. But I'm not interested in what ought to be (you've just stumbled upon David Hume's philosophy, by the way). I'm interested in understanding whether Eunju's behaviour so far during the quest is justifiable. And I am saying it is. You seem to be saying that Eunju's actions are untenable, and that Mio is right in trying to stop her from going after Taebin or anywhere of her choosing.

I'm not saying it's unjustifiable. I'm saying it's naïve, irresponsible, and irksome. I'm saying it's potentially damaging to everyone around her. And I'm saying that it's the result of differing priorities between her and her peers. I don't have much to say on Mio, she isn't exactly inspiring confidence at the moment.

Of course her actions have the potential to obstruct them, but until they do, this shouldn't be a part of our discussion. After all, she can also do something, or understand something, that helps them. In other words, there is no clear course of action that she ought to take now.

The potential ramifications of a character's actions? I'm certain we discuss such things regularly. Why is it that when it's Eunju's actions that are potentially damaging that it somehow "shouldn't be a part of our discussion"?

 

[kendama]

There isn't any false dilemma. By picking the Dice, she ceased to be a bystander. She made the conscious decision to involve herself in the war, regardless of whether she herself takes up arms. And once again, for someone almost entirely concerned about the morality of this tale, you're pointing to the right to choose a whole lot recently...and I haven't once challenged that idea.

Actually, I sincerely believe her main reason for picking up Dice (not only the A-Rank one but the previous three) is quite trivial… she said it in chapter 23, in fact: "I will keep these safe… I'll never use them.

I think Eunju wants to stop people from becoming Dicers by accident. Leaving an A-Rank Die there would be the same, in her mind, as leaving a gun near children. She knows the danger it represents, and so she will guard it from people who don't. It's symbolic, ultimately ineffective, but it is more reasonable than not doing it.

The decision to give the Die to someone else came later.

Considering her history, I'd say their survival significantly increases the chances of her own. Quite frankly, I'd say it's very nearly dependent upon it. As you've pointed, she's completely powerless...and rather unpopular with all the wrong people.

I don't disagree, but she may have other ideas and we may criticise her lack of wisdom but not blame her for failing to help them if she decided otherwise. She is the one who will live or die as a consequence of her actions, after all.

And may I point out that, although she is unpopular with the wrong people as you say, so far the only instance non-Dicers were harmed was when they were made direct targets of Quests. During the war, unless she becomes one, even the worst Dicers have no objective reason to harm her - there is no reward involved. So I would say her best shot at surviving would be to leave her Dice on a table, walk into a cupboard and sit out the War until it ended.

You know, she can transfer schools, and won't ever have to be involved with Dice again. She can walk away scot-free, and X can only track down Dicers or people who are near them (chapters 05 and 11). He only tracked down Eunju's phone because Miju was nearby.

I'm not saying it's unjustifiable. I'm saying it's naïve, irresponsible, and irksome. I'm saying it's potentially damaging to everyone around her. And I'm saying that it's the result of differing priorities between her and her peers. I don't have much to say on Mio, she isn't exactly inspiring confidence at the moment.

I find it kinda hard to justify something that is naïve, irresponsible and irksome, but I admire the fact that you do. In any case, I disagree: nothing that Eunju has done so far - going after Taebin to obtain an admission she craved and information she wanted - endangered anyone else. And if you say Mio doesn't inspire confidence, I don't see how giving her Eunju's Die would help.

Actually, what exactly do you think Eunju ought to have done? Followed Mio obediently into the auditorium? Given Dongtae her Dice right when the War began?

The potential ramifications of a character's actions? I'm certain we discuss such things regularly. Why is it that when it's Eunju's actions that are potentially damaging that it somehow "shouldn't be a part of our discussion"?

I'm just trying to say that right now, "potentially damaging" is a nondescriptor. It doesn't have meaning, because as things stand, everyone's actions are "potentially damaging". To whom? How so?

Mio's actions have brought the teacher's suspicions to herself. If she had blended into the crowd instead of conspicuously staring at him, she might have had a chance of escaping unnoticed. Even if he had been a Clairvoyant, he would have had the same trouble identifying the A-Ranker in the crowd as she had. If that is not "potentially damaging", I don't know what is.

Dongtae's actions so far are well-intentioned, but he lacks strategy. Spending all his Dice on two Attackers and not using Mio to help him are the height of folly. That can very well be "potentially damaging".

Taebin's actions amount to nothing, so it's hard to judge, but even doing nothing can be "potentially damaging".

Che-hyun's actions have shown resourcefulness, but since we don't know where he stands, they can also be "potentially damaging".

You speak of potential ramifications just because this can put Eunju on a bad light later, but you don't say what these ramifications are. And you are right not to, because we don't have enough elements to judge.

But you use "potential ramifications" that have not yet happened to pre-condemn Eunju's present behaviour.

Oh, I'm sure we can think of what could backfire on Eunju. She could stray away from Mio and be spotted by a Clairvoyant. She could be crushed by another collapsing section of the ceiling. She could be mistaken again for a Dicer by a B-Ranker because of her good looks and beaten up. But nothing of what she has done so far necessarily ramifies that way, and in all instances she is the one affected directly.

You can also venture to say that Eunju's behaviour may result on her Dice ending in the hands of an Attacker, and that may ultimately result in damage to the others. Even if we leave aside the fact that any share of causality Eunju's actions may have on unfavourable outcomes to the others is minimal in face of their own having brought this upon themselves, there remains the fact her actions so far don't show any sign of ramifying that way, and there is no guarantee that doing as Mio told her would have resulted in a different outcome.

So we're blowing soap bubbles right now. Either we admit that everyone's actions so far are "potentially damaging", or we wait and see whose actions actually cause damage, how and to whom, and then see how flawed their decisions were.

 

[Impossibility]

Actually, I sincerely believe her main reason for picking up Dice (not only the A-Rank one but the previous three) is quite trivial… she said it in chapter 23, in fact: "I will keep these safe… I'll never use them.

I think Eunju wants to stop people from becoming Dicers by accident. Leaving an A-Rank Die there would be the same, in her mind, as leaving a gun near children. She knows the danger it represents, and so she will guard it from people who don't. It's symbolic, ultimately ineffective, but it is more reasonable than not doing it.

The decision to give the Die to someone else came later.

I agree. However, this makes it pretty clear that she decided to involve herself. She isn't just a bystander.

I don't disagree, but she may have other ideas and we may criticise her lack of wisdom but not blame her for failing to help them if she decided otherwise. She is the one who will live or die as a consequence of her actions, after all.

And may I point out that, although she is unpopular with the wrong people as you say, so far the only instance non-Dicers were harmed was when they were made direct targets of Quests. During the war, unless she becomes one, even the worst Dicers have no objective reason to harm her - there is no reward involved. So I would say her best shot at surviving would be to leave her Dice on a table, walk into a cupboard and sit out the War until it ended.

You know, she can transfer schools, and won't ever have to be involved with Dice again. She can walk away scot-free, and X can only track down Dicers or people who are near them (chapters 05 and 11). He only tracked down Eunju's phone because Miju was nearby.

She's in a bit of a different situation considering that she's in possession of a Dice. As I said earlier, if Eunju's only concern is to remain righteous she can pick up and leave and the plot would go on without her.

I find it kinda hard to justify something that is naïve, irresponsible and irksome, but I admire the fact that you do. In any case, I disagree: nothing that Eunju has done so far - going after Taebin to obtain an admission she craved and information she wanted - endangered anyone else. And if you say Mio doesn't inspire confidence, I don't see how giving her Eunju's Die would help.

Firstly, I didn't say Eunju should give Mio the Dice, not once. In a past chapter, I made it clear that it would be reasonable for Mio to lay claim to it rather than allow Eunju to run around with it in her backpack, that was it. Now that being said, even though Mio doesn't inspires much confidence, it'd probably be better for her to have it, whether she keeps it or utilises it.

Actually, what exactly do you think Eunju ought to have done? Followed Mio obediently into the auditorium? Given Dongtae her Dice right when the War began?

Personally, I think both of those would've been superior options.

I'm just trying to say that right now, "potentially damaging" is a nondescriptor. It doesn't have meaning, because as things stand, everyone's actions are "potentially damaging". To whom? How so?

Mio's actions have brought the teacher's suspicions to herself. If she had blended into the crowd instead of conspicuously staring at him, she might have had a chance of escaping unnoticed. Even if he had been a Clairvoyant, he would have had the same trouble identifying the A-Ranker in the crowd as she had. If that is not "potentially damaging", I don't know what is.

Yes, that sequence was potentially damaging. However, she also identified the next A-ranker, which was unquestionably a very important gain.

Dongtae's actions so far are well-intentioned, but he lacks strategy. Spending all his Dice on two Attackers and not using Mio to help him are the height of folly. That can very well be "potentially damaging".

And yes, which is why I, at the very least, commented on it. Although, like in Mio's case, his actions were integral in snatching a win.

Taebin's actions amount to nothing, so it's hard to judge, but even doing nothing can be "potentially damaging".

Yes, again.

Che-hyun's actions have shown resourcefulness, but since we don't know where he stands, they can also be "potentially damaging".

Yes, which is again why we have commented on it.

You speak of potential ramifications just because this can put Eunju on a bad light later, but you don't say what these ramifications are. And you are right not to, because we don't have enough elements to judge.

And yet, we've commented on the most of the examples above at some time or another.

But you use "potential ramifications" that have not yet happened to pre-condemn Eunju's present behaviour.

No, that's not it. I've already made clear that my personal issue begins where these ramifications stem from her specific priorities. I've said it more than once. And once again, we judge characters almost every chapter. This very chapter we both agreed that Dongtae's decision, the consequences of which we've yet to see, was a sound one. We do it all the time.

Oh, I'm sure we can think of what could backfire on Eunju. She could stray away from Mio and be spotted by a Clairvoyant. She could be crushed by another collapsing section of the ceiling. She could be mistaken again for a Dicer by a B-Ranker because of her good looks and beaten up. But nothing of what she has done so far necessarily ramifies that way, and in all instances she is the one affected directly.

You can also venture to say that Eunju's behaviour may result on her Dice ending in the hands of an Attacker, and that may ultimately result in damage to the others. Even if we leave aside the fact that any share of causality Eunju's actions may have on unfavourable outcomes to the others is minimal in face of their own having brought this upon themselves, there remains the fact her actions so far don't show any sign of ramifying that way, and there is no guarantee that doing as Mio told her would have resulted in a different outcome.

Yes, these are potential outcomes that could precipitate as direct consequences of her actions.

So we're blowing soap bubbles right now. Either we admit that everyone's actions so far are "potentially damaging", or we wait and see whose actions actually cause damage, how and to whom, and then see how flawed their decisions were.

You're so focused on defending Eunju, that you're now just declaring a major component of a forum null and void. Ok, I;m fairly certain we're done.

 

[kendama]

I agree. However, this makes it pretty clear that she decided to involve herself. She isn't just a bystander.

Well, then it's just a matter of semantics, because adopting a passive role doesn't imply any imperative of making decisions regarding the War Quest or being sensitive to others' concerns.

She's in a bit of a different situation considering that she's in possession of a Dice. As I said earlier, if Eunju's only concern is to remain righteous she can pick up and leave and the plot would go on without her.

And as I said earlier, we both agree she didn't, and this already is to her merit.

Firstly, I didn't say Eunju should give Mio the Dice, not once. In a past chapter, I made it clear that it would be reasonable for Mio to lay claim to it rather than allow Eunju to run around with it in her backpack, that was it. Now that being said, even though Mio doesn't inspires much confidence, it'd probably be better for her to have it, whether she keeps it or utilises it.

I know you didn't, but that was the only action Eunju could take that would influence the course of events, given that Mio is the only Dicer in her immediate vicinity. As for what you say about Mio probably being better off with that Die than Eunju, it's your opinion. Personally, I believe Mio is too exposed and Eunju having the Die is a surer bet for having it serve a good purpose later. If you remember my past comments, I believe there is a Death Flag on Mio.

So we are reduced to a matter of opinion here.

Personally, I think both of those would've been superior options.

Again, opinion. There are no hard facts to support it so far. Personally, I believe for Eunju it makes no difference where she is. If she is made into a target, X will reveal her location anyway.

Yes, that sequence was potentially damaging. However, she also identified the next A-ranker, which was unquestionably a very important gain.

To her, yes. Not to Eunju personally, unless we tie their destinies together. Which may very well be the case. My whole point is that Eunju is entitled to having her own agenda during the War Quest.

And yes, which is why I, at the very least, commented on it. Although, like in Mio's case, his actions were integral in snatching a win.

Agreed, but the win has no impact on Eunju's own concerns (other than her empathy with other human beings). Unless she is made into a target (which I find unlikely, honestly, for plot reasons: it has happened before, there would be little added narrative benefit in it being reprised, and I doubt X would find it fun), in the end of the day whichever group wins doesn't really affect her.

Yes, again.

For me, too, ditto.

Yes, which is again why we have commented on it.

My point is not to try and proscribe speculation. More on that below.

And yet, we've commented on the most of the examples above at some time or another.

Sure, but using different approaches according to which character is being discussed. More on that below.

No, that's not it. I've already made clear that my personal issue begins where these ramifications stem from her specific priorities. I've said it more than once. And once again, we judge characters almost every chapter. This very chapter we both agreed that Dongtae's decision, the consequences of which we've yet to see, was a sound one. We do it all the time.

Yes, but my point is that when we - or at least I - criticise Dongtae or Taebin, we do it for something they have already done and backfired on them. Taebin not telling Dongtae about Dice. Dongtae exhausting his Dice fighting Samsusaeng. Mio intently staring at the teacher.

But in the case of Eunju, you are pre-damning her for actions that haven't yet backfired. You speak of condeming her priorities, but why? So long as those priorities are not at odds with the others' survival goals - and it is their decision to go out of their way to protect Eunju, she didn't ask for it - I see no problem in her pursuing them. This war is not of her making. We can make a case that Dongtae, Mio and the other Dicers cannot escape the fate they have spun for themselves, but that does not apply to Eunju.

Maybe this is just a matter of opinion, again. You speak of Eunju's priorities as something, in your words, irksome. I see them as natural given that in her mind, what she lacks the most is information.

As for Dongtae, I have to agree with you. We did pre-judge his actions in this chapter. However, you seem to cut him more slack than you do Eunju, if you ask me. Or maybe I am primed to interpret it this way. I tend to see Eunju's actions as mostly peripheral and only affecting herself in most cases, whereas there is at least one other person who will be definitely affected by Dongtae's decisions if they backfire: Mio, who also chose Defence and who will have her covered blown if they are defeated.

As I explained above, Eunju's decisions will almost certainly backfire on her and her only.

Yes, these are potential outcomes that could precipitate as direct consequences of her actions.

So what? As I said in that comment, the outcomes that only affect her are morally neutral as she has the right to dispose of her own life under these circumstances. The remaining outcome falls into the Nuremberg definition of crimes against the peace: "it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

In other words, if her decisions result in her Die falling into the hands of Mooyoung's or another Attacker's, ultimately the ones to blame are the ones who unleashed Dice upon the school - Dongtae and Taebin. And considering that Eunju will meet a terrible fate before they should this happen, I see it as profoundly imbalanced to pan her for her decisions because of that.

By the way, in terms of "causing an A-Rank Die to end in the wrong hands", Dongtae running out of Die points to activate Time Pause makes his own Die, which is more powerful and thus more dangerous, much more vulnerable than Eunju's, because Dongtae's status as an A-Ranker and his Skill are known by all.

You're so focused on defending Eunju, that you're now just declaring a major component of a forum null and void. Ok, I;m fairly certain we're done.

As I have explained above, we can speculate all we want, it's prejudgement of character that I take issue with.

We're done when we run out or arguments, reach consensus or get fed up, aren't we? Personally, as you are my only interlocutor, I relish those discussions. The previous one we had was a joy to me. And it's not as if anyone has posted a comment or even a "like" in this forum for ages, so we have it all for ourselves.

 

[Impossibility]

Well, then it's just a matter of semantics, because adopting a passive role doesn't imply any imperative of making decisions regarding the War Quest or being sensitive to others' concerns.

Consciously picking up an asset in a conflict that revolves around the collection of said assets is not adopting a passive role.

And as I said earlier, we both agree she didn't, and this already is to her merit.

Then stop bringing it up.

I know you didn't, but that was the only action Eunju could take that would influence the course of events, given that Mio is the only Dicer in her immediate vicinity. As for what you say about Mio probably being better off with that Die than Eunju, it's your opinion. Personally, I believe Mio is too exposed and Eunju having the Die is a surer bet for having it serve a good purpose later. If you remember my past comments, I believe there is a Death Flag on Mio.

Yes, it's my opinion, as are most comments here. Mio is hardly more exposed than Eunju. If Mio's status as an A-ranker was established that'd be one thing, however, to everyone else she's just another student. Eunju is X's favourite plaything and is defenceless.

To her, yes. Not to Eunju personally, unless we tie their destinies together. Which may very well be the case. My whole point is that Eunju is entitled to having her own agenda during the War Quest.

Not just to her though. And what does it matter how her action affect Eunju specifically. Once again, nowhere have I questioned her right to have her agenda. It's as irrelevant now as the first time you brought it up.

Agreed, but the win has no impact on Eunju's own concerns (other than her empathy with other human beings). Unless she is made into a target (which I find unlikely, honestly, for plot reasons: it has happened before, there would be little added narrative benefit in it being reprised, and I doubt X would find it fun), in the end of the day whichever group wins doesn't really affect her.

Once again, what does Eunju have to do with this. Is she the only character in this manhwa?

Yes, but my point is that when we - or at least I - criticise Dongtae or Taebin, we do it for something they have already done and backfired on them. Taebin not telling Dongtae about Dice. Dongtae exhausting his Dice fighting Samsusaeng. Mio intently staring at the teacher.

That just isn't true. It's pretty easy to see. Just read through a few of the pages here.

But in the case of Eunju, you are pre-damning her for actions that haven't yet backfired. You speak of condeming her priorities, but why? So long as those priorities are not at odds with the others' survival goals - and it is their decision to go out of their way to protect Eunju, she didn't ask for it - I see no problem in her pursuing them. This war is not of her making. We can make a case that Dongtae, Mio and the other Dicers cannot escape the fate they have spun for themselves, but that does not apply to Eunju.

Maybe this is just a matter of opinion, again. You speak of Eunju's priorities as something, in your words, irksome. I see them as natural given that in her mind, what she lacks the most is information.

Damning seems to be rather strong, particularly considering that I didn't even express any sentiment about her actions until prompted in an actual discussion and I went as far to say that I find them "irksome". What role she had in bringing this war to a head doesn't change the fact that it is ongoing, she is in the middle of it, and her actions have an effect on it.

As I explained above, Eunju's decisions will almost certainly backfire on her and her only.

Except we've already established that an A-rank Dice pretty much affects everyone at this point.

So what? As I said in that comment, the outcomes that only affect her are morally neutral as she has the right to dispose of her own life under these circumstances. The remaining outcome falls into the Nuremberg definition of crimes against the peace: "it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

In other words, if her decisions result in her Die falling into the hands of Mooyoung's or another Attacker's, ultimately the ones to blame are the ones who unleashed Dice upon the school - Dongtae and Taebin. And considering that Eunju will meet a terrible fate before they should this happen, I see it as profoundly imbalanced to pan her for her decisions because of that.

No, just no. Dongtae and Taebin have to accept their share of the responsibility, that is unquestionable.... that doesn't somehow relieve Eunju of blame for decisions further down the line, it certainly doesn't for anyone else.

By the way, in terms of "causing an A-Rank Die to end in the wrong hands", Dongtae running out of Die points to activate Time Pause makes his own Die, which is more powerful and thus more dangerous, much more vulnerable than Eunju's, because Dongtae's status as an A-Ranker and his Skill are know by all.

Yes, that is a possibility.

As for Dongtae, I have to agree with you. We did pre-judge his actions in this chapter. However, you seem to cut him more slack than you do Eunju, if you ask me. Or maybe I am primed to interpret it this way. I tend to see Eunju's actions as mostly peripheral and only affecting herself in most cases, whereas there is at least one other person who will be definitely affected by Dongtae's decisions if they backfire: Mio, who also chose Defence and who will have her covered blown if they are defeated.

Half of my comments about Dongtae focus on insulting his intelligence, so I find that a bit difficult to accept. The reason Eunju comes up so often is simply because of your determined focus on her character. This thread is effectively discussion between the two of us, and you always post first on the chapter. So my comments are going to be in response to the chapter and your comment. Even if she features for only a moment in a chapter, typically the overwhelming majority of your comment is about her, what you predict others might think of her, and how it once again validates her position. Eunju rarely appears in my thoughts on a chapter. With very few exceptions, my criticisms of Eunju have been a direct response to your rather aggressive unwavering defences of her character. If you spent most of your comments defending Dongtae's intellect, I'd probably end up spending quite a bit of time commenting on how idiotic some of his decisions have been. To add a bit of perspective, my mild criticism of her actions based on her motivations and their potential ramifications is somehow problematic, yet this began with your rather exhaustive defence of Eunju against potential negative reactions that might emerge from "Eunju haters" that apparently don't even post on this forum.

As I have explained above, we can speculate all we want, it's prejudgement of character that I take issue with.

No, it isn't. It's prejudging Eunju, that's where you take issue.

 

[kendama]

Consciously picking up an asset in a conflict that revolves around the collection of said assets is not adopting a passive role.

A matter of interpretation. It's passive in the sense that she hasn't acted on it so far.

Yes, it's my opinion, as are most comments here. Mio is hardly more exposed than Eunju. If Mio's status as an A-ranker was established that'd be one thing, however, to everyone else she's just another student. Eunju is X's favourite plaything and is defenceless.

Well, but Eunju's status on X's mind is her problem.

Not just to her though. And what does it matter how her action affect Eunju specifically. Once again, nowhere have I questioned her right to have her agenda. It's as irrelevant now as the first time you brought it up.

Well, it matters because Eunju has to decide her priorities based on how her actions will affect her. So she does not need to factor Mio's convenience in it (not saying that she doesn't).

Once again, what does Eunju have to do with this. Is she the only character in this manhwa?

No, but given that the others' actions are rather predictable and there isn't much to interpret in them, exceptions made to X and Taebin, I am always inclined to analyse her. You must have noticed how shorter my comments are when she is not around in the chapter. And I have announced so much the moment I joined this forum.

That just isn't true. It's pretty easy to see. Just read through a few of the pages here.

You must be right, it is probably a consequence of the fact that we agree on pretty much everything else. Still, it's more natural to discuss disagreements, isn't it? If you want to discuss any instances of prejudgement, feel free to bring them up and I'll retract where I am found lacking. But since you began this in response to my comment on the chapter - most often we simply make separate comments and don't engage in discussion - I'll leave it to you to steer the discussion again.

Damning seems to be rather strong, particularly considering that I didn't even express any sentiment about her actions until prompted in an actual discussion and I went as far to say that I find them "irksome". What role she had in bringing this war to a head doesn't change the fact that it is ongoing, she is in the middle of it, and her actions have an effect on it.

Well, you did begin this by contradicting my statements. If contradicted, I am inclined to respond. Isn't this how discussions begin?

Except we've already established that an A-rank Dice pretty much affects everyone at this point.

Sure, but again, why should this factor in her calculations?

No, just no. Dongtae and Taebin have to accept their share of the responsibility, that is unquestionable.... that doesn't somehow relieve Eunju of blame for decisions further down the line, it certainly doesn't for anyone else.

It doesn't, but since she will be punished on the doing (it's pretty certain that she will be harmed if someone comes for her Dice, or worse, she will become a Dicer, what she hates the most), and she only came to make such decisions because of what preceded and the predicament she was put in by forces out of her control, her share of blame is minimal in comparison to the others'.

Half of my comments about Dongtae focus on insulting his intelligence, so I find that a bit difficult to accept. The reason Eunju comes up so often is simply because of your determined focus on her character. This thread is effectively discussion between the two of us, and you always post first on the chapter. So my comments are going to be in response to the chapter and your comment. Even if she features for only a moment in a chapter, typically the overwhelming majority of your comment is about her, what you predict others might think of her, and how it once again validates her position. Eunju rarely appears in my thoughts on a chapter. With very few exceptions, my criticisms of Eunju have been a direct response to your rather aggressive unwavering defences of her character. If you spent most of your comments defending Dongtae's intellect, I'd probably end up spending quite a bit of time commenting on how idiotic some of his decisions have been. To add a bit of perspective, my mild criticism of her actions based on her motivations and their potential ramifications is somehow problematic, yet this began with your rather exhaustive defence of Eunju against potential negative reactions that might emerge from "Eunju haters" that apparently don't even post on this forum.

While I admit, and have always done so, that I am focused on Eunju, let's not forget that you are the one who, by posting the second comment, makes the conscious decision to engage me in discussion… which gaves me great pleasure. And since what we disagree about is Eunju, that's where the discussion goes. Your hypothesis on what would happen if I chose to write about Dongtae is probably true, and then again a truism: discussions are based on disagreements.

Reread my first post here, please, you will see that I came here in full knowledge I would be ignored. I write here primarily as a record to myself. If I decide to engage an Eunju-hater elsewhere, I can always come here, copy and paste, because for a long while I have been able to predict their every reaction to a chapter (not that it is difficult, anyway). I normally read reactions to chapters at Dicescans, Mangahere, Kissmanga and Mangafox, but only intervene when I find something I haven't addressed in my writings here before, and this is getting less and less common. If I wanted to engage in a heated conversation, I would post primarily in these places where I know my responses would elicit immediate reactions. I prefer to do it here.

What is wrong in trying to predict how your opponents are going to argue?

And if you mean "exhaustive" as in "leaving no stone unturned", I'll accept it as a compliment. If you mean you are exhausted to read them, that's easily solved, isn't it?

May I point out that all original pieces of criticism of Eunju have come from you in a long while. So in addressing them, I can evolve my mental profile of her character. You have my gratitude.

No, it isn't. It's prejudging Eunju, that's where you take issue.

Sure, I concede the point. But there's no problem there, right? One addresses what one finds interesting or important, and in the case of DICE, it is Eunju for me.