Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

[MArGi]

I am an atheist and in fact I don't know much about any of the book of any religion. But from the little I know, I just can't believe that there is a God. There are just too many contradictions in what is preached and what God supposedly did. How can people believe that God is merciful when he actually showed how cruel he can be sometimes (all those people who died in such horrible ways as martyrs while fighting for his glory, the plagues in Egypt, the Shoah - how could a God even allow that to happen...)? That's my main question. The very fact that God supposedly created Hell is... not good imo.
If I were to believe in some kind of "Gods", then I would believe in the Greek Gods. They were partial and crual, but at least they were not trying to hide it. That's just my opinion on the matter

 

[z.5]

Again, super wordy - read only if can be arsed...


Consider yourself warned.

Spoiler

He can. But does he?

I'm not sure. Hopefully he doesn't have double standards.

Both are questions which are impossible for us to answer – especially considering how it is currently impossible for us to even prove in the existence of any divine beings.

A common trait of human species is curiosity.

But ‘desire’ =/= ‘need’.
Humans may desire the answer to questions like this, but it isn’t like we necessarily need to know them.

Interest may be an awesome thing, but it is only interest.

According to religions god has always existed. And needs no reason for his existence.

According to some branches of physics, so has the universe.

But I will not get drawn into arguments about these kinds of hypotheses, as my knowledge is very basic in such matters.

What is the use actually?

Whatever you decide it to be.
‘Use’ is a very subjective word.

What gives life significance, according to you? I think people who do good things should be rewarded and people who do bad things should be punished according to the level of their crime. Now a lot of people who are good die without recieving any reward in this life. And many people who caused others sufferings die after having a great life. Should this be the way of life?

Nothing.
I don’t believe that life has any fundamental ‘significance’ at all.

I don’t really need for life to have any significance either… I am happy with my life being completely insignificant!

I also believe that good deeds should be rewarded and bad deeds punished.
But what I believe, unfortunately, has little to do with what actually happens in the end.

Should this be the way of life – well, I’d rather it wasn’t.
Unfortunately, however, this appears to be the way that it is…

I don't know. I hope god will not. I really cannot find answers in religious texts and these questions come to my mind as well.

But the fact that you can only ‘hope’ that he doesn’t judge people badly for these actions, makes one worry that there aren’t other things he is also judging you on, which you have no knowledge of.

I mean, how does anyone know what a god is, or isn’t, judging them on. Maybe he takes great offence to people wearing shoes, or eating carrots, or speaking Dutch…
If a heaven does exist, what is to say that when you reach the grand golden gates you are not turned away at the door for wearing the wrong kind of hat? Or not waking up each morning to smooth Jazz?!?

I mean freedom of choice. Animals do not have it as much as humans. Like I said, you can choose to believe in god and you can choose not to. But a mosquito cannot as it do not posses the intelligence to understand the concept. So a mosquito probably does not bother about the concept of god. Blame it on god or Evolution, your choice.

Again, I ask the question of how can you know this?

I don’t believe that there is much ‘freedom’ at all in choice. Well, any feeling of ‘freedom’ which you may experience is but an illusion.

You may think you ‘choose’, for example, what to eat each day, but surely a mosquito also ‘chooses’ which poor sod to bite…

If ‘free will’ did exist, then surely it wouldn’t rely on one knowing of its existence for it to take an effect or not.

Also, belief, by its nature, isn’t a choice. You either believe something or not – It’s like love, you can’t choose who you love and who you don’t.

God decided to make a species special. That happened to be H.Sapiens. If you don't agree, then why evolution favored H.Sapiens so much?

I don’t believe there is anything special about homosapiens.

Certainly not evolutionarily speaking – evolution has not favoured homosapiens.
We are just as evolved as the next species, it is just our own egotism which makes us feel we are special.

But people are more likely to do something profitable for them as long as that won't result in a bad outcome for them? We're such a nice bunch, aren't we?

I don’t believe that this is so.

Look at people giving money to a poor beggar on the street – is this a profitable business? It isn’t like this is likely to result in a ‘good’ outcome for them (they will be [whatever they gave away] poorer at the end of the day).

Sure, there are some assholes around – but generally speaking, I give most people quite a bit of trust to ‘do the right thing’ in the end.

Maybe I am naïve?

Maybe my trust in humanity is misplaced?

Hopefully they will hold accountable, in the judgement day. Otherwise, I think it is a fine action.

I hope not.

I’d rather no one ended up burning for eternity.

I can not think of any sin which should be worth an eternity (not a fortnight – a literal eternity!) of pain and suffering.
I also don’t think that a lack of punishment clears a bad action’s worth.

They should not burn for eternity. They should only get the punishment which can be given for their action.

But I’d rather that they experienced this punishment in this lifetime – rather than risking the chance that they may not suffer it in the next.

Those people that commit murder, rape, can we call them religious? I don't think any religion approves these. Anyway, even the religious people shall be judged.

Sure they can consider themselves religious.

They are following what they believe their god wants them to do.

Now I have nothing specific against Christianity, but I am only going to pick on the bible here (as I know it better than other religious books).

The bible, as a book of morals, certainly isn’t completely against rape.

For example:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Spoiler

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife;

because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Suggests that if you rape a woman who is a virgin – fitting punishment is to give the father of the woman some cash and force her to be his wife – it was her fault after all…

Or in Numbers 31:17-18
Where after Moses checked that they had saved all the women alive told them to:

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Condoning rape of war slaves…

On the topic of slavery – it isn’t like the bible is completely against this either.
It seems to hold conflicting views, depending on who is writing at the time.

Law is to protect the rich. Law is to protect those people who wants to make their criminal activities legal. Also many good people suffers and many bad people get away in our wonderful law.

Theoretically, the law is there to protect everyone. But I will submit that it tends to be somewhat unequal in how it is enacted – depending on who is being judged and for what reason.
This, however, is a societal issue – not a religious one.

I hope god is not cruel. The murderer should only get punishment suited for his crime. If he murdered to save himself from getting killed, then he should receive no punishment.

Punishment should always be relative to the crime – even if it was to save himself, I don’t see how his life should be worth more than another.

The murder chose to murder. God did not make him murder. God put him in this situation and what he did was on his own accord.

Maybe it is the way I wrote it.
I am not saying that God physically held his hand and forced the knife

but by knowing exactly what would happen – before it did

before the murderer/victim were even born

before the world was made even…

If God had the powers attributed to him, stopping the man being born/committing the crime would be well within the sphere of his powers.

This means that God does bare some responsibility, if only due to his inaction.

I don't know why you're thinking that I'm a obsolete religious being. I'm not.

Please do not misunderstand me.
I don’t believe you are any more ‘obsolete’ than anyone else.

I really didn’t intend to make it appear that way.

If I truly thought badly of you, we wouldn’t be having this (rather long) discussion.

Eventually, Good people should get rewards and bad people should get punishment. I don't mean eternal burning. But something suited to their crime.

But what punishment should that be.

And who should submit the punishment and judge the crime?

And how long should it take to dispense justice?

I don’t feel that any crime should equal an eternity of suffering – especially not a crime which could have been easily (and with no effort for any omnipotent being) avoided.

That's why I want to believe in the existence of a god who treats everyone equally regardless they believe in him or not. But can't seem to find any in the prominent religious texts.

Please don’t allow me to force your hand – by all means believe whatever you want to believe.

If you can’t find answers in religious texts, widen your search field. Find reason for yourself. Don’t rely on the views of others to dictate your beliefs.

 

[takneeque]

hey guys..happened to read some of the comments on this page..well,what can i say,i like the topic . I would like to make a few points of my own.

First,I am very interested in the inherent human condition that makes us humans to wish for the existence of a superhuman being and in turn reach out for it in our own experiences to make a case for god's existence.This roller coaster of thought and emotions that is I is so amazing and complex that we can't but help try to simplify everything there is.We seek an authority(a god or a set of rules) to simplify our life.that we don't just wish but also act in every way we see fit to make sense of this system deeply intrigues me towards the genetic makeup of human mind.If and when this puzzle or a part is solved,it's going to be a curtain raising day in human existence(people like ray kurzweil say it could happen within our own lifetimes).

About morality and god and ways in which the world must/should function.Fact check,look at the world around us,it is not moral.We are as much a slave of our wants and desires as we have the will to ignore them.Individual humans can be moral sometimes and it is sometimes believed that a moral world would be a better world(sometimes for humans,sometimes for other living beings too).
I too wish there was a god and I had an endless support system which manifests itself(or does not) just with a prayer or an honest call.It's so good and simple and lovely.The thing is,other than the universal laws based concept of god,other concepts make the god and it's actions very ambiguous and non-definitive.I haven't read the books but I am pretty sure in the end it would all come down to the matter of a particular human's interpretation.Even rule/law based systems are constantly evolved on finding new facts.Genetics do make us act in a certain way but even that is circumstantial.My take on morality is that even if morality turns out to be axiomatically absolute ,it is definitely not an imposition.

I would not diss god because everyone has different interpretation and requirements of god.In my opinion,it would boil down to our own self,our wants,choices and beliefs,all of which bring me back to my first point that it somehow starts with us humans,animals with differential intellect. Now,back to this human nature,this beautiful amalgam of thought and emotions.how many times have we been wrong in our countless assertions except for when we take shelter of facts which themselves are constantly evolving.Some one said what is the point of all this if there is no god.I would say that human existence has been a quest in finding meaning into this life and things around us.Most times we get lost in our instincts,wants,desires and other animistic behaviors.I seems to have come to a conclusion that intellect is one defining ability which has helped us create any and everything which is unique to humans.It would only be natural to therefore give this intellect preference over other aspects of human constitution.Not always though.

Just my two cents.Mostly to articulate my own thoughts.Cheers.

 

[Holt]

Well tbh, I haven't extensively studied the Bible but I do believe there's a God. About understanding His views, I find that a bit beyond my reach or well, logical reach in general. We judge these things based on what we perceive to be right and wrong. Not that our right/wrong isn't right/wrong but as 'mortals' we essentially function in a different way. For arguments sake, how plausible is it to accurately comprehend the thoughts of an apparently superior being (assuming there's one). If we're talking about a being that has existed and will exist for eternity or maybe long enough to seem like so to us, if we only exist for about a 100 years, can the value of things be the same to us? Especially if said being created something as fascinating as the humans body so easily. If we assume this being is all knowing and has the power to literally do anything, is it possible to think the same way? According to the Bible, God created the world because he could and creating man seemed to be something that happened on the spur of the moment. Man wasn't supposed to attain intelligence and after he did, he was sent out to prevent him from attaining immortality. Basically, man could've attained a level similar to that of heavenly beings and God didn't want this. His right hand man tried to do this prior and got demoted and is doomed to suffer eternally for this.
I'm not sure if it was really ever stated that God was all loving and the rest. What I'm sure of though is that the Bible has stated God is selfish in that he holds the power and wants to be served. And if we're assuming he's king and has the power to do anything he wishes and effect whatever he deems, then this isn't exactly surprising. Even with our knowledge, how many would give up such absolute power or allow another to steal or threaten to take that power? And he expects the people he created to follow him, something which imo, is also within logic of what we can comprehend. If he solely created man from scratch and gave him breath, why wouldn't He expect man to follow him? He did create man and the world in 6 days. Could've wiped out the world just as easy and started from scratch. Basically, I'd say, how valuable can 'human life' be to Him? Not much imo. I mean, we kill and eat different animals for food when there are grains and crops to consume. In other words, we don't kill animals because we have to. We do so because we can and proceed to eat them. Some hunt them for the fun of it and as if that wasn't enough, we do the same even to other humans. Imagine what humans would do if another species actually contested with us? Right that already happened with other humans and led to war. And these aren't even creatures we created. Imagine if we did create animals and were entitled to them. Could literally do whatever we wished.

There's one thing I'd say, I do agree that acts in the Bible and some permitted or condoned by God are inhumane but that's coming from a human's pov. Would God feel the same way? No more like, can God possibly feel the same? I don't think so. I think the biggest issues comes from trying to understand an existence that's superior and frankly beyond comprehension (for those who do believe).
Second problem imo, is the notion that God is completely all-loving. Acts in the Bible have shown that he always isn't. He's been known to get angry and it doesn't end well when He does. And he's been known to test people as well. This much is discernible if you even read a bit of the Bible but afaik, it wasn't always like this. God created humans, they disobeyed by eating the fruit He warned them not to and they began to cause so much atrocities that He regretted creating them and it's been going on like this. And so, a judgement day has been promised for mankind but this is all if you believe it. It's been stated in the Bible that free will was given. You can choose to believe or not. That much is certain. The current religion tries to rob people of that choice, forcing them and going to extreme means to do so. Also using deceit to achieve this. The idea is for you to know about it, and decide for yourself not have things forced down your throat.

I'm not trying to defend any actions done by God because to do so, one needs to first understand Him, something I don't think I do except in a basic sense. I don't think many do either.

 

[M3J]

I see God as a fake entity made up by ancestors to explain how things happened, which evolved into wanting to control the masses, which is why the Bible began to be taken literally. if God is real, and the Bible is true, then God is an egotistical, assholish piece of shit for not only putting his follower through hell to show how loyal his follower is, but for flooding the world when there was so much sin but not even doing anything about it now.

That said, it's still fun to read the mythologies.

 

[Holt]

Thing is, if He is real, what you think of him wouldn't change anything. Neither would mine. The idea could be made up or not, like I said, it's what you choose. I'm not sure there's any real way to tell which it is. In the end, most statements about God have 'if' because despite whichever opinion one holds, there's isn't really any conclusive evident to the fact.

And technically, he hasn't 'not done anything' about it at any point in time. He's sent preachers and all to convert people but if you mean changing people because he can, well that would invalidate free will no?

 

[z.5]

Thing is, if He is real, what you think of him wouldn't change anything.

That all depends on the nature of the being.

If he is the Judeo-Christian God, then no - your beliefs wouldn't change his nature at all... They would, however, change what your future entails.

...but if you mean changing people because he can, well that would invalidate free will no?

No.
Biology, chemistry and physics invalidate free will - the fact that he knows what you are bound to do before you do it, and that your future is already layed out before you were even born, is purely an extra nail in the coffin of the subject.

 

[xi0]

I dunno. I've seen a lot of people view Muslims in a negative way. I've seen people cracking insulting joke at a girl just because she was wearing hijab, and everyone enjoyed it. And I don't think Islam tells it's followers to do act of terrorism. There are extremist in every religion. But eventually every religion tells you to do god thing.

People being insensitive doesn't mean something is beyond criticism.

Anyway, what do you guys think about the existence of god?
I really want to believe in god's existence. Because, if god doesn't exist then life doesn't really have much significance. Imagine yo born live your life and die. Then nothing happens. How is it fair to everyone? Some born in a rich family with full of resources and some born in poor family. Some live their life lavishly and some find it hard to meet their basic needs. What is the fault of poor people? What is the fault of kids born with defects? I believe that's why the concept of heaven and hell is necessary. A lot of people can do wrong but decides not to because they fear hell and some don't care and do as they wish. What's the difference between them if heaven or hell is just a myth?

The problem with this is wanting him to exist...that's what frames your thinking. Also, attributing consequence to the purpose of life. Humans got to the point that their brains were large enough to ponder such things, so meaning is sought in everything. Obviously there's a meaning to our lives on a daily basis and even long-term, or at least our brains convince us there is. But I personally think the randomness of it all is beautiful on it's own.

My only caveat is that it's hard for me to comprehend there being nothing after we die. The notion that our consciousness just ceases to be is something I have a hard time wrapping my head around.

 

[z.5]

People being insensitive doesn't mean something is beyond criticism.

This. People have the right to be offended, but that doesn't give them the right to stop you offending them.
I am not sure I can think of any subjects which should be beyond discussion.

That said, just because you can be insensitive, doesn't mean that you should make a habit of it...

The notion that our consciousness just ceases to be is something I have a hard time wrapping my head around.

Just stay awake for a few days, then down a bottle of gin - then try to recall what you were thinking about once you wake up .

Either that or go under general anaesthesia (maybe safer?)...

 

[xi0]

That said, just because you can be insensitive, doesn't mean that you should make a habit of it...

Well, she could have been made fun of for being fat, or for being ugly...any number of things. Are any of them really appropriate? No. People reacting that way to hijab are just xenophobic. All of that has nothing to do with taking exception with Islam or other religions.

 

[Holt]

That all depends on the nature of the being.

If he is the Judeo-Christian God, then no - your beliefs wouldn't change his nature at all... They would, however, change what your future entails.

Well I meant change anything in regards to his existence. The latter part only matters if you believe in the first place. Well I mean, belief would've invalidate the existence or lack of. Neither would our thoughts. Basically, He already either exists or does not. We may not have conclusive evidence to either but the point is that it wouldn't change the answer.

No.
Biology, chemistry and physics invalidate free will - the fact that he knows what you are bound to do before you do it, and that your future is already layed out before you were even born, is purely an extra nail in the coffin of the subject.

You mean about genes and being programmed to react in certain ways from birth? Perhaps, but it isn't exactly set in stone if I'm not mistaken. When I say free will, I mean choosing to do things, though considering we're already made to take certain actions, it kinda makes the free will thing murky. However, I don't think everything is programmed in our genes. I mean choosing a stand for religion for example seems to be a matter of choice.
Lol well, Him knowing doesn't mean he'll influence it or that He does which was my point. The idea is to let people choose, not rewrite things to ensure they go a particular route and though He knows which you'll choose, I don't think that should matter (to us). It's not like that will actually change things (in theory).

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 18, 2016 ---

My only caveat is that it's hard for me to comprehend there being nothing after we die. The notion that our consciousness just ceases to be is something I have a hard time wrapping my head around.

Yup, pretty much but I guess one won't really know until death. And dead men tell no tales. In addition to that, I also wonder about when my consciousness came into being. When I consider that I could've been someone else entirely with a completely seperate consciousness, it just makes me feel weird. Like I lucked out and that if I hadn't, I wouldn't even have known and with that thinking, if consciousness does disappear after death, then you'll never really know either because well, you'll cease to exist. I remember Rustin Cole talking about something like this in true detective, while also on the religion topic.

 

[xi0]

When I consider that I could've been someone else entirely with a completely seperate consciousness, it just makes me feel weird.

That is the GOAT mindfuck pondering you can do...especially if you're under the influence.

Well, to put this topic more into context with the general topic...all of what I mention doesn't really compel me to believe in anything. Me wanting to believe there's something after we die doesn't make me look for answers or open me up to any described possibilities, mostly because they don't feel correct at all. Most of it is rather self-serving.

 

[M3J]

Thing is, if He is real, what you think of him wouldn't change anything. Neither would mine. The idea could be made up or not, like I said, it's what you choose. I'm not sure there's any real way to tell which it is. In the end, most statements about God have 'if' because despite whichever opinion one holds, there's isn't really any conclusive evident to the fact.

And technically, he hasn't 'not done anything' about it at any point in time. He's sent preachers and all to convert people but if you mean changing people because he can, well that would invalidate free will no?

It would change a lot. If we don't think of him as a perfect and benevolent being, then he'll send us to hell as punishment. If we think he's a horrible being, he'll be butthurt and send us to hell, based on the pastors and Bible.

Did he not flood the Earth and told Moses to only take two of each species with him? Tortured his follower to prove that no matter what, his follower will be loyal and suck his dick? I'm sure if he can do either, he can help the people.

And do we really have free will if what we do while we're alive determines whether we go to hell or heaven? Is it freedom that we have to pray to God every day to get into Heaven or at least go to church to avoid Hell?

My only caveat is that it's hard for me to comprehend there being nothing after we die. The notion that our consciousness just ceases to be is something I have a hard time wrapping my head around.

I just picture it as blackness and no thought.

 

[z.5]

Well I meant change anything in regards to his existence. The latter part only matters if you believe in the first place. Well I mean, belief would've invalidate the existence or lack of. Neither would our thoughts. Basically, He already either exists or does not. We may not have conclusive evidence to either but the point is that it wouldn't change the answer.

Certainly no more than my lack of belief in a person called Jim, who lives in Seatle, would cause him to cease to exist.

You mean about genes and being programmed to react in certain ways from birth?

No. I mean about the way that your brain (and body) functions. The laws of nature that dictate chemical signalling, synaptic formation and organization, thought processing, decision making, task dictating...

I am not just talking about the genes which dictate how your body will form, but also the physics, chemistry and biology which enable it to form in the first place (and guide its formation in a specific direction).

When I say free will, I mean choosing to do things, though considering we're already made to take certain actions, it kinda makes the free will thing murky.

But I am arguing that this choice doesn't really rely on 'free will' at least not in any meaningful way. Rather I believe 'free will' to be a very artificial entity.

We can believe we have it, due to our brain making it appear that way to us, but that doesn't mean we actually do.

However, I don't think everything is programmed in our genes.

No, of course not, upbringing plays a major role as well.

Him knowing doesn't mean he'll influence it or that He does which was my point.

But it kinda does. If he exists as a being described in the bible (or another religious text) and created everything how he desired it to be – and if he knows everything that will ever happen, long before it does – then he already knew what would happen before he created the system in the first place.

This means that he created it in a way which would lead to it playing out exactly as he knows it will.
This means that he caused it to happen in exactly that way.

He could have created it slightly differently, for a completely different outcome, but it still wouldn't get around the issue of him knowing how his changes would lead to you, or me, acting in the exact way which we are bound to act,
and thinking the exact things which we are bound to think,
and feeling the exact feeling which we are bound to feel...

The idea is to let people choose, not rewrite things to ensure they go a particular route and though He knows which you'll choose, I don't think that should matter (to us). It's not like that will actually change things (in theory).

But the choice non-existent – it is a completely artificial non-entity.

By the very nature of his abilities, it is not possible for him to not write things to ensure that they go a particular route.

 

[Holt]

Certainly no more than my lack of belief in a person called Jim, who lives in Seatle, would cause him to cease to exist.


No. I mean about the way that your brain (and body) functions. The laws of nature that dictate chemical signalling, synaptic formation and organization, thought processing, decision making, task dictating...

I am not just talking about the genes which dictate how your body will form, but also the physics, chemistry and biology which enable it to form in the first place (and guide its formation in a specific direction).


But I am arguing that this choice doesn't really rely on 'free will' at least not in any meaningful way. Rather I believe 'free will' to be a very artificial entity.

We can believe we have it, due to our brain making it appear that way to us, but that doesn't mean we actually do.


No, of course not, upbringing plays a major role as well.


But it kinda does. If he exists as a being described in the bible (or another religious text) and created everything how he desired it to be – and if he knows everything that will ever happen, long before it does – then he already knew what would happen before he created the system in the first place.

This means that he created it in a way which would lead to it playing out exactly as he knows it will.
This means that he caused it to happen in exactly that way.

He could have created it slightly differently, for a completely different outcome, but it still wouldn't get around the issue of him knowing how his changes would lead to you, or me, acting in the exact way which we are bound to act,
and thinking the exact things which we are bound to think,
and feeling the exact feeling which we are bound to feel...


But the choice non-existent – it is a completely artificial non-entity.

By the very nature of his abilities, it is not possible for him to not write things to ensure that they go a particular route.

I probably got a bit lost there. So in essence, we don't have free will? And free will meaning choosing what we want to do in real time? Like mentioned upbringing also plays a part among other things in why you act how you do, but the part lies in influencing you, while you carry out the act. You've described process of the body's formation but aren't the mind's working separate? The conscious mind at least. I've believe I've read about this bit before from a scientific pov and it's been theorized as what separates humans for other animals. Hence the phrase 'I think therefore I am'. However, if you're proposing that this is simply falsehood, unfortunately, I'm too stale in that department to argue much. It's been a while since I read/researched in-depth about that.

Yes, hypothetically, He does but is he specifically writing these things to be? I guess we're looking at this differently. I consider it not as writing to go in a particular route but knowing the particular route the writing will play out. There's a bit of a difference in the two. What he created wasn't done in a way that He influences it but rather is aware of what it will do. So it's not like he wrote it to pan out a certain way which would invalidate any form of decision in the matter. Except one says writing it in that way while knowing the outcome means responsibility for said actions but imo, that only holds context in knowing everything (beginning and end) which wouldn't apply to us.

 

[takneeque]

My point on free will is that it depends on what we are looking at.Concerning us,starting with atoms,then complex biological molecules,then genes and then parts of brain responsible for specific actions,it appears to me that each layer of complexity has it's own system of functioning and that system of functioning is exhaustive only in the layer of complexity they are in.I do think we have choice when we are acting as a whole human entity but our constituent layers are more prohibited(brain cannot just leap out of the body! but the body can leap out of a plane!).Atoms and hormones act based on respective physical laws and biological processes governing them.As a whole individual,we are certainly prohibited by our body's constitution but again to a certain degree we have choice over how we act or react to many circumstances.honestly,it looks more deterministic than choice based but in no way do we see an absolution of either.Again,I think these are complex things and our wishing of these to be simple won't make it so.Statistically,we can look at individual human interaction as a picking from a limited sample space based on our poisition(physical,social etc..) but when look at all the humans(and more so with all living beings),the sample space becomes complete and makes the system more deterministic.Wow,I was arguing for choice(at individual level) but I guess deterministic system prevails for whole set of humans or living beings.

My only caveat is that it's hard for me to comprehend there being nothing after we die. The notion that our consciousness just ceases to be is something I have a hard time wrapping my head around.

Yea,It certainly is hard.That is what makes me wish for a god or some other meaning like that.The value of my life is nothing compared to the whole scheme of things is very sobering and was actually first step towards me being matured(though it's a work in making..) to the idea of world as it is.The point that I cannot deny is that why should our life be any different than that of an ant or some other animal.Only thing which would differentiate us would be a developed intellect.Other than that there is nothing special about us.

 

[Hll]

When I say free will, I mean choosing to do things, though considering we're already made to take certain actions, it kinda makes the free will thing murky

Not really,you read Magi right?Sop you should how big of a role free will plays in that story.And humans do have free will, the being conditioned to take certain actions is similar to having to buy only one brand of a particular commodity in a monopoly, the situation forces you to do it,but you can rebel against it...in this particular example, you can choose to not buy the product there is a monopoly on, and live your life without that, and even in real life, most of the arguments against free will, come from us being conditioned to act in a certain way that is determined by society, but..anybody can choose to go away from society and reject it wholeheartedly, it may be tough, but it can be done, as long as this choice of rebelling is there, then free will is a reality.
In Magi too, this displays itself, by being able to fall into depravity, the characters there have free will, and this makes Al Thamens and even Solomon stance of God messing with free will kinda bogus.

e wanting to believe there's something after we die doesn't make me look for answers or open me up to any described possibilities, mostly because they don't feel correct at all. Most of it is rather self-serving.

Well, obviously, that will be the case, which is why you need to be able to sift through the bullshit, if you do so, you actually do get some interesting revelationbs about an after life,frankly any after life, is only there to suit two purposes:
1)To help you to deal with the fact of uncertainty after death.
2)To give you an inclination about what kind of life you need to live.
In the second case, I think that the life that reincarnation asks you to live, is easier to follow than 'heaven and hell', it is quite long and you might get bored but in a nutshell, it is to do your part in keeping the world at large alive, and for a human or any other creature for that matter it is to do what they feel is right.

And do we really have free will if what we do while we're alive determines whether we go to hell or heaven? Is it freedom that we have to pray to God every day to get into Heaven or at least go to church to avoid Hell?

No you don't but this only applies to people who believe in it and don't follow, with people such as yourself who have made peace with the 'nothingness' of death and overall, reject the notion of the Yahweh, I don't really think that here is any doubt about whether there is free will or not.

The laws of nature that dictate chemical signalling, synaptic formation and organization, thought processing, decision making, task dictating...

I am not just talking about the genes which dictate how your body will form, but also the physics, chemistry and biology which enable it to form in the first place (and guide its formation in a specific direction).

That does not negate free will, sure if you can grasp what generates our ideas, then free will has a system of generation,it may even be able to be tampered with, but does free will stop being free, even in most series which I can recall, such tamperings only change the signals, like for example, for a zombie, the change after death only causes them to seek out meat, from not wanting to do so in the first place, it is still the zombies who are makng the choice.

Free will, will be tampered with only if, you actually want to do something else and some entity or technology stops you from doing that and forces you to do something else, all the while with you wanting to reject this other action, but being unable to do so.That is tampering of free will.

But it kinda does. If he exists as a being described in the bible (or another religious text) and created everything how he desired it to be – and if he knows everything that will ever happen, long before it does – then he already knew what would happen before he created the system in the first place.

This means that he created it in a way which would lead to it playing out exactly as he knows it will.
This means that he caused it to happen in exactly that way.

He could have created it slightly differently, for a completely different outcome, but it still wouldn't get around the issue of him knowing how his changes would lead to you, or me, acting in the exact way which we are bound to act,
and thinking the exact things which we are bound to think,
and feeling the exact feeling which we are bound to feel...

What exactly does being conditioned to behave in a certain way, have to do when it comes to taking away your free will?At the end of the day, it is still you making the choices and God is a human construct, any rational person would accept to this, how would a human construct, possibly be able to take away our ability to make our own choices.

 

[M3J]

No you don't but this only applies to people who believe in it and don't follow, with people such as yourself who have made peace with the 'nothingness' of death and overall, reject the notion of the Yahweh, I don't really think that here is any doubt about whether there is free will or not.

I don't think it only applies to people who believe in God. I might not have free will despite not believing in anything because if God is real, then I might go to Hell for criticizing him and not believing in him.

But as someone who doesn't believe, I know everyone has free will to a degree. Free will that we can choose to do whatever we want, and to a degree that our freedom is limited by society and by laws.

 

[z.5]

Like moses to the see, I divide my verbosity into 2 (unequal) parts...

@Holt

Spoiler

I probably got a bit lost there. So in essence, we don't have free will?

In essence, no, we do not.

Like mentioned upbringing also plays a part among other things in why you act how you do, but the part lies in influencing you, while you carry out the act.

Upbringing just helps to cause your body (brain included) to develop differently – in tandem with your genes.
Identical twins, for example, are very similar in their genes, but can have radically different personalities based upon individual upbringing.

You've described process of the body's formation but aren't the mind's working separate? The conscious mind at least.

No. The mind's working is completely biological – the same as the body.
The mind is just self-interpretation of a series of complicated chemical and electrical signals within the brain.

Also, the central nervous system (mind) develops plastically, based on stimulus received from the internal and external environment. But even though it can change based upon external factors, it is still governed by the same biological laws which control the development of the body.

I've believe I've read about this bit before from a scientific pov and it's been theorized as what separates humans for other animals. Hence the phrase 'I think therefore I am'. However, if you're proposing that this is simply falsehood,

Yes, I am stating that this is purely us desperately searching for reasons to put us above others in the animal kingdom.

It is pure hubris on our part.

Consciousness, for example, has been found in many other animals.

I consider it not as writing to go in a particular route but knowing the particular route the writing will play out. There's a bit of a difference in the two.

Not in my view, there isn't.

it's not like he wrote it to pan out a certain way which would invalidate any form of decision in the matter. Except one says writing it in that way while knowing the outcome means responsibility for said actions but imo, that only holds context in knowing everything (beginning and end) which wouldn't apply to us.

I can't see any way for him to 'not write it to go in a particular route' if he designs the system from scratch, already knowing which route it will go in.

He wrote the laws with specific values and rules. These rules mean that certain things happen and certain things will not.

Once the rules have been put in place, events have been set in motion which can not be altered (well, I guess he could if he existed – but then he definitely would be changing what is happening).

As he knew what would happen after creating the rules, he also knows how different it would be if he altered the rules in any way.

It is irrelevant if we know, or not, what will happen in the future – it won't stop it playing out exactly as it is going to play out – as any changes we feel we are making to the system will already be known by God. He will know that we will change the system at that point and in that way...

@Hll

Spoiler

That does not negate free will,

But it does. Unless you believe that we, somehow, have a system of deciding things external to our nervous system? External to the laws of science?

...then free will has a system of generation

Which would also cause it to no longer be 'free'.

like for example, for a zombie, the change after death only causes them to seek out meat, from not wanting to do so in the first place, it is still the zombies who are makng the choice.

I am a little confused here.

But surely, the zombie can not decide not to eat meat?

Also, before you find an example of one – I'd argue that this doesn't show free will, as that particular zombie would always have not wanted to eat meat...

The problem lies with how decisions are made in the brain – the brain receives inputs from the body, interprets them, weighs them up with the current state of the system, and then decides on the most suitable outcome – whatever that may be.

The outcome will always be the same, at that particular time, for that particular stimulus.

Free will, will be tampered with only if, you actually want to do something else and some entity or technology stops you from doing that and forces you to do something else, all the while with you wanting to reject this other action, but being unable to do so.

But being forced to do something isn't anything to do with 'will'.

Free will can not exist due to the way which you decide what you want to do.

It has nothing to do with what you actually end up doing in the end.

What exactly does being conditioned to behave in a certain way, have to do when it comes to taking away your free will?At the end of the day, it is still you making the choices

No one is arguing that someone else is making the choices for you – what I am arguing is that the 'choices' are not really choices in the first place.

Well, not in the way which enables them to actually fall under the most common definitions of 'free will'.

God is a human construct, any rational person would accept to this, how would a human construct, possibly be able to take away our ability to make our own choices.

Was this meant for me Hll?
I am not sure that I was ever arguing for the existence of any gods – nor stating their relevance in the topic of free will.

 

[takneeque]

@zimbardo could you please explain(once again if i have missed it already)what you mean by free will and why you think there is no free will for an individual.I would like to give an example to the contrary.Say,I am hungry and I want to eat but I don't.Or I am sitting but for no reason I stand up.That is a choice I can make.What do you mean when you say we don't?