Final Jellal Fernandes vs Natsu Dragneel

[Ebony Maw]

In Gajeel's flashback it is revealed Wendy can do it after training.Igneel's power can only be used once(against Zeref).Natsu fills this criteria.And Natsu has the most training along with Laxus.And he is also the first Dragon Slayer who can enter DF without any element onscreen.

OK so Tartarus could enter DF with the outside circumstances being Igneel's death and Gray falling. Those are both situations that would piss off Natsu massively and they happened one after another, how is he supposed to replicate that in a 1 vs 1 with Jellal? We know that Natsu gains more power the angrier he gets, they've pointed it out several times so it would seem to be an emotional factor. The reason this matters is because of the rules, Natsu literally has a rule that (while it covers everyone else) only affects him, that being "emotional barriers are not present", how is that fair? Natsu's DF has been hyped massively and a rule literally makes it so that entering said mode can't even be contested. Does anyone else see this as unfair?

 

[Brandish μ]

But leaving it up to speculation as to how strong the DF is like Natsu vs Gildart's hype part II. It's inaccurate ESPECIALLY if FDKM is almost on par with DF

On the speculation, this does also apply to Jellal. I mean we haven't seen him do much other than Grand Chariot. Spells like Sema should logically be stronger than GC. Dragon Force should enhance Natsu's power logically.

It comes down to opinion. For this thread I'm only using the fact that DF Natsu's speed is faster than Meteor as a reason to negate Meteor blitzes eternally arguments. But Idk how strong DF actually is. My assumption is that it would be far too much for Jellal, but that's just a guess. It should be stronger than FDKM. FDK spells are pretty much LFD 2.0, as these modes operate in a very similar way

Wouldn't that still constitute as an outside stimulus though?

Well it depends, and I see what you mean. Though it could just be that Natsu was emotionally angry/fired up. Jellal for example was very angry when he oneshotted Neinhart (from seeing Erza wounded). Emotions and magic are connected, and I think in both situations their anger allowed them to release their power the best they could (kind of like an adrenaline rush).

 

[Ebony Maw]

Well it depends, and I see what you mean. Though it could just be that Natsu was emotionally angry/fired up. Jellal for example was very angry when he oneshotted Neinhart (from seeing Erza wounded). Emotions and magic are connected, and I think in both situations their anger allowed them to release their power the best they could (kind of like an adrenaline rush).

The comparisons aren't really that fair, for Jellal it's how powerful his spell was but for Natsu it's the difference of whether or not he can enter the most hyped mode in the manga. I get that magic and emotions are connected but how is Jellal going to anger Natsu that much that he goes DF when Tartoros Natsu had seen his father killed and best friend injured to get into DF? I get what you're saying and it's a good point about emotions and magic but there's a large difference between what we're speculating.

 

[Rain Cloud]

In Gajeel's flashback it is revealed Wendy can do it after training.Igneel's power can only be used once(against Zeref).Natsu fills this criteria.And Natsu has the most training along with Laxus.And he is also the first Dragon Slayer who can enter DF without any element onscreen.

No according to the rules these mods set up, you can't use that no matter how logical it sounds. *shakes finger*

On the speculation, this does also apply to Jellal. I mean we haven't seen him do much other than Grand Chariot. Spells like Sema should logically be stronger than GC. Dragon Force should enhance Natsu's power logically.

Nice try, but no. We're using the Sema we saw Jellal use. We're not trying speculate up things that people are not going to agree on.

 

[Brandish μ]

The comparisons aren't really that fair, for Jellal it's how powerful his spell was but for Natsu it's the difference of whether or not he can enter the most hyped mode in the manga. I get that magic and emotions are connected but how is Jellal going to anger Natsu that much that he goes DF when Tartoros Natsu had seen his father killed and best friend injured to get into DF? I get what you're saying and it's a good point about emotions and magic but there's a large difference between what we're speculating.

Natsu probably felt a brief surge in power when he saw Gray go down (Igneel died after the Mard fight), that I agree to. And at that time he was nearly out of MP. But Dragon Force is a product of dragon slayer magic, and I think him entering signifies he's reached a certain level of proficiency with DS magic... more so than being emotionally angry (he's been angry so many times before).

The main reason I brought up the emotions bit was to put into context what role it could play. Would Jellal need to be very angry to use Grand Chariot at the level he did against Neinhart? Could he get that angry? I don't know if it matters a great deal, other than getting them 100% serious.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 27, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 27, 2016 ---

Nice try, but no. We're using the Sema we saw Jellal use. We're not trying speculate up things that people are not going to agree on.

I see.

Well then I'd doubt that Sema would be stronger than Natsu's base roar, on feats. Sema took out OS members, the base roar oneshotted Bluenote. I'd have no problem in thinking Natsu's roar would stop Sema before it landed. But X792 Sema would be on a much higher level.

 

[Arjuna]

OK so Tartarus could enter DF with the outside circumstances being Igneel's death and Gray falling. Those are both situations that would piss off Natsu massively and they happened one after another, how is he supposed to replicate that in a 1 vs 1 with Jellal? We know that Natsu gains more power the angrier he gets, they've pointed it out several times so it would seem to be an emotional factor. The reason this matters is because of the rules, Natsu literally has a rule that (while it covers everyone else) only affects him, that being "emotional barriers are not present", how is that fair? Natsu's DF has been hyped massively and a rule literally makes it so that entering said mode can't even be contested. Does anyone else see this as unfair?

So how can you be sure Jellal will go all out.Natsu and Jellal are friends now.Jellal may only go all out against END.We are discussing about a hypothetical situation.As Holt didn't restrict DF it should be allowed.And why DF is so op we should tell Hiro.It is said that it's power rival that of a real Dragon.

No according to the rules these mods set up, you can't use that no matter how logical it sounds. *shakes finger*




Nice try, but no. We're using the Sema we saw Jellal use. We're not trying speculate up things that people are not going to agree on.

Natsu has shown he can activate DF without any element so we should use it.

 

[Rain Cloud]

So how can you be sure Jellal will go all out.Natsu and Jellal are friends now.Jellal may only go all out against END.We are discussing about a hypothetical situation.As Holt didn't restrict DF it should be allowed.And why DF is so op we should tell Hiro.It is said that it's power rival that of a real Dragon.

Natsu has shown he can activate DF without any element so we should use it.

That's not what I'm arguing. I'm completely fine with Natsu having DF.

But then we'd have to use his DF feats, which aside from speed, is basically useless information compared to his FDKM. Right we have this disorganized thread of people wondering how strong DF is, as without it Natsu's chances of winning decrease.

 

[Axiomus]

Given the context, Natsu was probably talking about the Dragon Slayer's Secret Art, "Shiranui-gata, guren houken". This is because he says that he "learned it from Igneel himself", and it would make more sense that Natsu learned a secret art as opposed to dragon force. Even if Igneel had taught Natsu dragon force, it would have been something that Natsu never got a chance to practice due to him being too weak. Whereas a secret art is something that seems to be capable of being cast at any level (for example, Wendy).

Spoiler: Chapter 411

All that said, Natsu's Dragon Force shouldn't be considered in this tournament. Dragon Force is a Dragon Slayer's final form. Technically speaking, it should be Natsu's strongest form. However the only version of dragon force we've seen from Natsu is that of Tartarus-level, which probably scales to around Jura's level. Currently, Natsu is stronger than that version of dragon force by a mile in his base form. We don't even know if Natsu has mastered dragon force to the point where he can consciously tap into its power, or whether if it's something he subconsciously does when he was pushed to the limits.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Natsu probably felt a brief surge in power when he saw Gray go down (Igneel died after the Mard fight), that I agree to. And at that time he was nearly out of MP. But Dragon Force is a product of dragon slayer magic, and I think him entering signifies he's reached a certain level of proficiency with DS magic... more so than being emotionally angry (he's been angry so many times before).

The main reason I brought up the emotions bit was to put into context what role it could play. Would Jellal need to be very angry to use Grand Chariot at the level he did against Neinhart? Could he get that angry? I don't know if it matters a great deal, other than getting them 100% serious.

Ah cool, I thought I might have got the Igneel part wrong, I only started reading the manga in the Alvarez arc, sorry about that.

As for the most part, I agree with you, the only bit I'm dubious of is DF = Mastery of DS magic because of Sting and Rogue. That may just be an inconsistency though. I'm just going to eliminate DF for now, way too much speculation happens going down that path.

 

[Brandish μ]

As for the most part, I agree with you, the only bit I'm dubious of is DF = Mastery of DS magic because of Sting and Rogue. That may just be an inconsistency though. I'm just going to eliminate DF for now, way too much speculation happens going down that path.

Well it's not like I 100% know either. I'm just trying to piece together bits and pieces I think Sting and Rogue having the lacrima inside them allowed them to enter DF iirc.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Well it's not like I 100% know either. I'm just trying to piece together bits and pieces I think Sting and Rogue having the lacrima inside them allowed them to enter DF iirc.

I guess we're always going to have to speculate, it is magic after all lol. That being said I would appreciate Mashima explaining some aspects like Dragon Force.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 27, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 27, 2016 ---

So how can you be sure Jellal will go all out.Natsu and Jellal are friends now.Jellal may only go all out against END.We are discussing about a hypothetical situation.As Holt didn't restrict DF it should be allowed.And why DF is so op we should tell Hiro.It is said that it's power rival that of a real Dragon.

The problem here though is that the rules aren't about if they fight or not (it's a tournament, they have to), it's about different modes. I'm just going to drop this and then make a post on why I think Jelly Boy can win but the reason I think DF should be banned (at least at the moment) is that it's being hyped massively, some people are expecting it to stomp August, so how is it fair to keep a power up that stomps anyone in?

Anyway like I said I'm dropping this for now, good discussion though.

 

[Axiomus]

Ah cool, I thought I might have got the Igneel part wrong, I only started reading the manga in the Alvarez arc, sorry about that.

As for the most part, I agree with you, the only bit I'm dubious of is DF = Mastery of DS magic because of Sting and Rogue. That may just be an inconsistency though. I'm just going to eliminate DF for now, way too much speculation happens going down that path.

It was implied that Sting (and Rogue's) dragon force was incomplete, as there was a comment made about how Sting wasn't at 100% when he was using his dragon force. The way I see it:

Complete Dragon Force = Turning into a dragon = Mastery of Dragon Slaying Magic = Acnologia's level

 

[Char]

Voted Natsu Dragneel, which is the only natural possibility.

Whereas Jellal would win low-mid diff against base Natsu, and high diff against FDKM Natsu, there's no possible way he can win against his DF form, which is yet to be shown but was hyped to be capable of being on par or superior to August.

So, the outcome would be pretty much the one we saw in ToH, or even harder for Jellal.

 

[Rain Cloud]

Voted Natsu Dragneel, which is the only natural possibility.

Whereas Jellal would win low-mid diff against base Natsu, and high diff against FDKM Natsu, there's no possible way he can win against his DF form, which is yet to be shown but was hyped to be capable of being on par or superior to August.

So, the outcome would be pretty much the one we saw in ToH, or even harder for Jellal.

The outcome in the tower of heaven was Jellal about to blast Natsu to bits with Abyss Break if not for a prior injury. Again if FDKM is 2.5x Base and DF is 3x Base, that isn't much of a difference.

 

[Takuan]

*Sigh*
I don't know who to vote for. I'll keep lurking for another 10 pages of debate before i can chose something.
For now i'm leaning towards Natsu a bit though. And that troubles me. COnsidering the fact that i would have voted Laxus over Natsu, and that i consider Laxus and Jellal equal.
But DF Natsu is allowed, and eventhough speculating about its true power is meaningless, i think it would give Natsu the upper hand.

 

[Char]

The outcome in the tower of heaven was Jellal about to blast Natsu to bits with Abyss Break if not for a prior injury. Again if FDKM is 2.5x Base and DF is 3x Base, that isn't much of a difference.

Sorry I don't quite remember the outcome of ToH, I thought DF Natsu pretty much owned Jellal but I'm beginning to recall it wasn't so one-sided.

DF is 3x base, FDKM should be 2x or less. The gap between FDKM and DF is going to be massive.

 

[THE ALMIGHTY CRYBABY]

I do not think that the multiplier of current DF Natsu is 3!!! Imho, it's more. You just need to take a look at Acnologia. Acno's dragon form is the result of mastering DF and his power up is huge when he's transformed. In dragon form Acnologia only needed to use sheer force and perhaps sometimes roar attacks to defeat his opponents but we never saw him trully going all out!!!
This basically means that stronger dragon-slayers who activate DF get even a bigger increase in power than weaker ones because they dragonize more and this kinda sounds logic, to me!!!

ToH DF Natsu was already on wizard saint tier while ToH Base Natsu was just a s-class mage back then. Tartaros DF Natsu was able to do some damage to Etherious Mard Geer ( probably GoI-level) who was much more powerful than everyone else in that arc.

Jellal could handle current Base Natsu and FDKM Natsu for sure and take the win here but at the moment I just see no way how Jellal could surpass DF Natsu!! However, Natsu's DF is just speculation and hype and this troubles me which one to vote!!!
Jellal vs Base Natsu: low diff win jellal
Jellal vs FDKM Natsu: mid or high diff win Jellal
Jellal vs DF Natsu: Natsu takes this

 

[Axiomus]

I don't think there is a set multiplier for dragon force. Dragon Force is magic that lets you wield the power of a dragon, not magic that multiplies your power. How strong you are in dragon force should be proportional to how dragonized you become.

Natsu said dragon force felt like his powers were doubling or maybe even tripling because at that time he received all of Jellal's power. We can interpret that as Jellal being almost twice as strong as Natsu at that point. The sum total of Natsu's power at that time was "all of Natsu's remaining power + all of Jellal's remaining power". If Natsu felt like he was at 3x of his power, and 1x of that power was his own - then 2x of that power would have been Jellal's. If Oracion-arc Jellal gave current Natsu all of his magical power, it would no longer double Natsu's mp.

 

[Jko]

Natsu wins. He don't need DF for Jellal's sh!t duability. One FDK attack would wipe Jellal off the face of the earth.

 

[Raven]

Natsu all the way. Natsu is in a completely different level now people need to accept this.