European Politics

[shionoro]

Erdogan now let's it all escalate. He accuses the US (a nato partner, no less) of being involved with the coup and wants to force them to give them Gülen (which the US won't do) while exchanging a good chunk of the turkish judges.

A big question is whether greece will give the fled soldiers to turkey.
Under normal circumstances, this would be a nobrainer.
But there is actually a rule in the EU law that noone may be brought to a country where he or she faces death penalty.
Turkey does not have it installed yet, but it would be highly controversial if greece sent these soldiers to die.

By all the things arround him, Erdogan becomes an even bigger liability for merkel.
A turkey which has a death penalty installed and basically exchanges judges as it pleases cannot be seen is a 'safe state', as german law puts it (a state from which refugees have no right to flee from to germany without being sent back).
It can hardly count as a reliable partner who you make deals with. But it is necessary to have erdogan play the bumper as long as the EU states, exspecially the eastern ones, don't have a sustainable agreement about how to deal with incoming refugees.

So, the question now is how the EU reacts. Personaly, i was always for a fair and honest integration of turkey into the european institutions, with a real EU membership in the end.
But it seems like with Erdogan, it will be impossible to do that.
And i don't think Erdogan is going away any time soon.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 17, 2016 ---

Edit: So, the first ISIS connected Terror attack in Germany.
Fortunately, noone died: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe-attack-many-injured/

As it is known by now, there was an actual connection to ISIS, at least he radicalized himself with their videos.
He drew an ISIS flag in his room. It is not clear whether he actually had phone contact with them, it is currently investigated.

The attacker was only 17 years old and a refugee from afghanistan who was not seen as dangerous or overtly religious by the people in contact with him.
He was in a foster family since 2 weeks before the attacks.
His foster family said that he was a very calm and friendly dude, but changed after he heard of the death of his friend in afghanistan, which he thought (it is not clear by now whether it is true) to be the Nato troups fault.
He actually, immidietly before the attacks, encountered a refugee helper he knew. She talked to him, but he ran away from her to another part of the train, shut himself in a toilet and prepared his weapons (a knife and an axe) and then went on his run.

 

[Philia]

Well... they tried everything else to oust him. They even tried asking nicely, heh...

The main issue is the huge difference between the MP's views and the views of the people who bothered voting in the Labour leadership elections. It seems neither represent the other (which is odd, as you'd imagine that the views of the MP's should be a pretty good representation of the views of the voters).

This, I'm afraid, will become even more evident when the Eagle (et al.) fail at removing him in the upcoming leadership elections...
What's more, they will blame him for splitting the party, when it is infact them who don't appear to represent the party they help lead.

Angela Eagle dropped out. Owen Smith challenging Corbyn while Corbyn's popularity is rising again. Don't think he'll lose the leadership contest.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2016 ---

Edit: So, the first ISIS connected Terror attack in Germany.
Fortunately, noone died: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe-attack-many-injured/

As it is known by now, there was an actual connection to ISIS, at least he radicalized himself with their videos.
He drew an ISIS flag in his room. It is not clear whether he actually had phone contact with them, it is currently investigated.

The attacker was only 17 years old and a refugee from afghanistan who was not seen as dangerous or overtly religious by the people in contact with him.
He was in a foster family since 2 weeks before the attacks.
His foster family said that he was a very calm and friendly dude, but changed after he heard of the death of his friend in afghanistan, which he thought (it is not clear by now whether it is true) to be the Nato troups fault.
He actually, immidietly before the attacks, encountered a refugee helper he knew. She talked to him, but he ran away from her to another part of the train, shut himself in a toilet and prepared his weapons (a knife and an axe) and then went on his run.

This might affect Merkel's refugee policies. How is the reaction in Germany?

 

[z.5]

Angela Eagle dropped out. Owen Smith challenging Corbyn while Corbyn's popularity is rising again. Don't think he'll lose the leadership contest.

Me neither, that is why I said

when the Eagle (et al.) fail at removing him in the upcoming leadership elections...

It's amazing to what levels they will stoop to try and remove him.
They realise that he is more popular than them amongst voters - try and keep him off the ballot.
Crap! That failed... plan 2 - try and remove the poorer voters who support him? - make it 25 quid a vote.

... damn, he may still win... Especially if the people who hate him may split their votes amongst multiple challengers...
Oi! Eagle! Be a dear and step down so that the 'just as radical as Corbyn, but a much stronger leader' candidate can be unopposed in opposition...

I wonder what cabinet position was offered to get her to step back - she seemed pretty eager to fight for the role.

To be honest, Corbyn doesn't strike me as that bad. He seems like a genuinely decent bloke - I especially support his anti-war rhetoric.
He also appears to want to genuinely represent his electorate - which is more than can be said for many of the dissenters in the Labour party.

That said - there are times I'd rather he didn't, such as in signing article 50 - as it has been shown time, and time, and time, again that British people are incapable of making a rational binary choice - and will happily believe idiots like Farage, if it suits their deep-seated mistrust of Johnny Foreigner...

Ironically, it is the fact that he may actually represent the people who voted him in which is my biggest worry about Corbyn.

 

[g01]

Erdogan now let's it all escalate. He accuses the US (a nato partner, no less) of being involved with the coup and wants to force them to give them Gülen (which the US won't do) while exchanging a good chunk of the turkish judges.

A big question is whether greece will give the fled soldiers to turkey.
Under normal circumstances, this would be a nobrainer.
But there is actually a rule in the EU law that noone may be brought to a country where he or she faces death penalty.
Turkey does not have it installed yet, but it would be highly controversial if greece sent these soldiers to die.

By all the things arround him, Erdogan becomes an even bigger liability for merkel.
A turkey which has a death penalty installed and basically exchanges judges as it pleases cannot be seen is a 'safe state', as german law puts it (a state from which refugees have no right to flee from to germany without being sent back).
It can hardly count as a reliable partner who you make deals with. But it is necessary to have erdogan play the bumper as long as the EU states, exspecially the eastern ones, don't have a sustainable agreement about how to deal with incoming refugees.

So, the question now is how the EU reacts. Personaly, i was always for a fair and honest integration of turkey into the european institutions, with a real EU membership in the end.
But it seems like with Erdogan, it will be impossible to do that.
And i don't think Erdogan is going away any time soon.

I don't think he accused US,in his speech he used very polite tone BUT as you said US won't give gülen so when they refuse he will accuse them lol

For some reason I think death penalty will not return.Erdoğan can't use death penalty to rebels even if he bring back death penalty.Simply he cannot punish the criminals with a law that doesn't exist at the time of crime was committed.EU's reaction is one of the reasons that makes me think he won't bring back death penalty.

Edit: So, the first ISIS connected Terror attack in Germany.
Fortunately, noone died: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe-attack-many-injured/

As it is known by now, there was an actual connection to ISIS, at least he radicalized himself with their videos.
He drew an ISIS flag in his room. It is not clear whether he actually had phone contact with them, it is currently investigated.

The attacker was only 17 years old and a refugee from afghanistan who was not seen as dangerous or overtly religious by the people in contact with him.
He was in a foster family since 2 weeks before the attacks.
His foster family said that he was a very calm and friendly dude, but changed after he heard of the death of his friend in afghanistan, which he thought (it is not clear by now whether it is true) to be the Nato troups fault.
He actually, immidietly before the attacks, encountered a refugee helper he knew. She talked to him, but he ran away from her to another part of the train, shut himself in a toilet and prepared his weapons (a knife and an axe) and then went on his run.

Glad to hear that everyone is safe.
Sometimes people who has personal problams uses ISIS as an exuse to commit crimes,this looks like the case.
I want to ask you something,majority of country still support Merkel ?

 

[shionoro]

For some reason I think death penalty will not return.Erdoğan can't use death penalty to rebels even if he bring back death penalty.Simply he cannot punish the criminals with a law that doesn't exist at the time of crime was committed.EU's reaction is one of the reasons that makes me think he won't bring back death penalty.

Erdogan himself however said he could do that that does not mean he can, but after he simply imprisoned two constiutional judges, i don't see a lot stopping him when it comes to law.
We will see. I would not put it beyond him after the actions following the coup he has done so far.

Glad to hear that everyone is safe.
Sometimes people who has personal problams uses ISIS as an exuse to commit crimes,this looks like the case.
I want to ask you something,majority of country still support Merkel ?

There is talk now that the boy was possibly not afghan, but a pakistani and there is a theory that he might have lied a bout the dead friend and was actually sent by isis. But it is investiagted right now. As it seems to me, he had no real contact to isis. They sure claimed it is their success what he did, but that does not mean a lot. The fact that he didnt go after his foster family nor after a refugee helper who knew him points towards some kind of amok run rather than an your usual terrorist attack. He shouted allahu akbar when he did it, but to me it seems more like a confused youth.
If ISIS had the means to simply send lots of half children who go after westerners with knives, they would. But fortunately, it seems like their propaganda only was able to fetch one refugee in a million.

To Merkel: Merkel was at an all time low in the Böhmermann crisis (i know that it was mentioned in some turkish knewspapers, but i do not know how big it was. A german political satire show made a song about erdogan, erdogan then wanted that song removed because he felt insulted. this did not happen. instead, another german comedian made an actually insulting poem about erdogan, with the disclaimer 'look erdogan, this is what would actually be insulting'. Erdogan then sued, and in the german law, Merkel can decide whether the case goes to Strafgericht (so can actually lead to imprisonment) or not. erdogan still could have sued in front of Zivilgericht (which can only lead to money penalties), but merkel allowing him to sue in the way he did made many germans question whether merkel bows down in front of a perceived dictator to save her refugee deal.)
At that point, she only had 36% of gthe germans wanting her to remain chancellor.
Those numbers got better lately. This month, the latest poll gave her a solid 50% of people agreeing with her politics (with the other 50% being divided in a 'not so much' and 'absolutely not' group).
Her party, the CDU, also got better results lately, climbing from 30% to 35% again.
So yes, after she lost some popularity, merkel is still one of the more popular german politicians and rising. There is noone in her own party able to replace her if she does not let them. If you ask me, she is not going to step down and she is going to win the next german election.

The whole refugee crisis in germany settled down a bit since the turkey deal, only spiking now again due to the incident with the train.
But all in all, while not as enthusiastic as before, most germans still do accept the refugees.
The right extremist aprty which was on a rise during the crisis lost points again too, from 15% to 10%. Since their popularity was only built on the refugee crisis and fear mongering, that means that the initial fear a vocal minority of germans initially had about the refugees settled down a bit.
It is unclear right now whether their numbers will rise again with this incident, but i doubt it. Not on the long term. It is a talking point, but it is not as much of a deal in german news coverage as, for example, nizza was.

Edit: Merkel's popularity right now is actually linked quite a lot to turkey. Her refugee deal with turkey is one of the most important things she did in EU politics which at least gave the EU a breather in the crisis. She did her best to make Erdogan seem as a reliant partner, even if she was always an opponent of a Turkish EU membership before. She struggles very hard to find the right tone reacting to the things Erdogan does.
Exspecially since a majority of the turkish people in germany (which are germany's biggest minority) are pro erdogan. I don't know whether it was news in Turkey, but after The Bundestag called the killing of armenians in turkey a genocide, Erdogan himself said that the turkish politicians who agreed to it are traitors and don't have turkish blood in them or something along those lines. Some of them even had to be protected by police because they received death threats.
After the armenian resolution, erdogan also forbid German politicians to meet the german troups stationed in incirlik. Due to those incidents (and the Böhmermann crisis which was followed by a lot of reports about other turkish oppositionals imprisoned or sued by erdogan) it got very very hard for merkel to defend Erdogan as a partner.
It remains to be seen how she will react now. She won't let Erdogan fall as partner likely because the refugee deal is terribly important to her, but there might be a moment in which she has to.
It depends on erdogan too, tho. Erdogan says a lot of things, but it depends on what he follows through with. He is very quick to do thing like the stuff i mentioned, but he never touched the refugee deal so far, because he knows it is useful to him, too. Erdogan is not stupid after all.

 

[Philia]

Today is one more of the sad days of terror in france, as if the country didnt have enough attacks in the last time.

France is more vulnerable to terrorist attacks. And they keep bringing more troubles with actions like this https://www.rt.com/op-edge/352283-syria-us-france-bombing/

Overall I don't think Europe is heading towards a good direction. It is becoming increasing racist and xenophobic. If this trends continue then there will be anarchy soon.

Oh god http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...h-for-Brexit-independence-from-European-Union

 

[shionoro]

France is more vulnerable to terrorist attacks. And they keep bringing more troubles with actions like this https://www.rt.com/op-edge/352283-syria-us-france-bombing/

Overall I don't think Europe is heading towards a good direction. It is becoming increasing racist and xenophobic. If this trends continue then there will be anarchy soon.

Oh god http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...h-for-Brexit-independence-from-European-Union

I really would not trust Russia Today with any information. They were often exposed as liars and their lies are politically motivated by anti western tendencies.
To Farage: I don't deem him really dangerous when he does that. No European country wants to leave the EU right now because the brexit makes it seem very undesirable.
I found him more dangerous as a countryhead. He made himself seem unreliable too with forcing britain into brexit and then running away.
I think he just wanted some attention.

 

[Philia]

I really would not trust Russia Today with any information. They were often exposed as liars and their lies are politically motivated by anti western tendencies.
To Farage: I don't deem him really dangerous when he does that. No European country wants to leave the EU right now because the brexit makes it seem very undesirable.
I found him more dangerous as a countryhead. He made himself seem unreliable too with forcing britain into brexit and then running away.
I think he just wanted some attention.

France do actively take part in bombing in Syria, Iraq and Mali. Killing many civilians in the process. Surely that doesn't help them anyway. France has quite large Muslim population. They go bombing Muslim countries, they'll feel the backlash. I wish western powers would stay away from ME. Things would be much more peaceful if they did.

Farage is a xenophobe idiot. But many do support him.

 

[z.5]

There's a lot of xenophobic idiots in the UK

 

[shionoro]

France do actively take part in bombing in Syria, Iraq and Mali. Killing many civilians in the process. Surely that doesn't help them anyway. France has quite large Muslim population. They go bombing Muslim countries, they'll feel the backlash. I wish western powers would stay away from ME. Things would be much more peaceful if they did.

Farage is a xenophobe idiot. But many do support him.

I am not sure about this. The Us-french-UK participation and support of the kurds helped quite a lot against ISIS.
Naturally there were dead civllians, but saying france killed civillians on purpose goes to far here (exspecially looking at the source it comes from when russia backs assad and bombs quite much more carelessly).
The laternative to the french bombings would possibly lead to more dead civllians since ISIS would not be on the retreat they are now.
It was the same really with the french mission in mali.
I know that france has a very large muslim population and quite some trouble with islamism and poverty and crime, exspecially when looking at places like the banlieues, but i do not think attacks would stop or diminish by stopping engagement in the middle east.

I doN't think islamism in france will ever stop before kickstarting economical change in the more impoverished regions, which can be rather problematic in a very paris-focussed country like france.

 

[thepeaguy]

I campaigned and voted for Brexit for various reasons.

Immigration is a major issue for many in England alone. This nation within the UK nation has 40+ mil on a small island nation. I also blame the state for encouraging younger people to breed like rabbits and rewarding them for it. Immigration also increases wage competition amongst the working class with no university degrees. Let's not forget how it expotentially increases pollution. The people who support us remaining in the EU are the "haves" who sneer at the "have nots" as being stupid, old and racist. Well, karma's a bitch. If the political class listened to the people instead of their corporate masters, they wouldn't be in this mess. Well deserved.

The EU is about centralising power, which is no different from the Roman Empire and the Third Reich of Nazi Germany. It is an undemocratic institution, and I am for one am glad to have voted out. For me, it isn't a left or right political wing issue: it's about democracy. I wanted democracy.

I hope France and Germany follow suit as they're cuckolded at this present moment. I feel bad for these countries.

In UK we have tories in power which is full of right wingers. And the labour party is pretty incompetent. The had their all time lowest vote percentage last election.

The Tories are a pro-EU party. All of the big political parties are.

I wouldn't have complained if it were Remain because I would be dignified. Now, the students like yourself are coming out of the woodwork to bash at the common folk for not voting to your design. 60% of younger millennials (18-24) didn't bother to vote. Blame them, not old people who also voted Remain.

Democracy has spoken. Get over it.

 

[z.5]

You genuinely believe that everyone who voted for remain was rich, well educated and secure in their job/position?

I feel that is as false a view as the people who believe that everyone who voted for leave was a racist...

Fact is that it isn't the EU which is causing an influx of low-paid foreigners 'taking our jobs', but rather the government which we keep voting in time and time again.

With sequential Labour and Conservative governments fucking up the system - ignoring the majority of the UK - and pushing the wealth into places like London. They are the ones causing all the problems - not the EU - and the EU makes such a beautiful scapegoat doesn't it...

Also, yeah, karma is a bitch - I only hope that I am wrong in my negativity and you don't suffer the effects of karma in your choice on the ballot.

How's all that spare EU money treating you? Think it will reach all the poorer areas in the UK, which voted to leave? Think our newly updated Trident (a considerably larger sum which could have helped out) will help improve their lives?

 

[shionoro]

I campaigned and voted for Brexit for various reasons.

Immigration is a major issue for many in England alone. This nation within the UK nation has 40+ mil on a small island nation. I also blame the state for encouraging younger people to breed like rabbits and rewarding them for it. Immigration also increases wage competition amongst the working class with no university degrees. Let's not forget how it expotentially increases pollution. The people who support us remaining in the EU are the "haves" who sneer at the "have nots" as being stupid, old and racist. Well, karma's a bitch. If the political class listened to the people instead of their corporate masters, they wouldn't be in this mess. Well deserved.

The EU is about centralising power, which is no different from the Roman Empire and the Third Reich of Nazi Germany. It is an undemocratic institution, and I am for one am glad to have voted out. For me, it isn't a left or right political wing issue: it's about democracy. I wanted democracy.

I strongly disagree with equating the EU with the holy roman reich or the nazi reich.
The Eu is not an undemocratic institution per se.
The decission makers of the EU are all elected people from the different nations.
It's the elected nation heads and the elected EU parliament who make decissions and bother with the whole small scale stuff which actually is handy and important oftentimes.

The 'have nots' as you call them will be the biggest losers economically after the brexit. I would not have a problem with it if it was otherwise.
It is not like they get anything more out of it.

However, back to the EU: The EU does centralize some key issues, yes. But the way it is centralized is mostly done in a very consensual way which is beneficial to all parties (or the deficits are equaled out by EU money given to them in return).
Britain will lose a lot of benefits and still have to adhere to many rules.

We can bet about how your immigration policy will change. I am reasonably sure that there is not a lot change
For any non EU nation you could refuse immigrants before (and didnt), and the EU nation which sent you most workers was poland, and you kinda needed those. We can also bet about the rate of unemployment and whether more english workers will have a job after the brexit, and i can be reasonably sure that this won't happen either (at least not due to the brexit, i cannot foresee whether mrs may will actually be an amazing reformer)

There was not actually anything yet that was proposed as a change which could not be done while being in the EU.
It shows a lot that the people who wanted out now don't even participate in what comes next. Because they really don#t know.

Edit: To elaborate further: Saying the EU is undemocratic would be the same as saying UK is undemocratic towards the scottish. The scottish can be overrule by a british majority. That wouldnt be possible in the EU in many important topics that easily because every single country has a veto right.
For example, cyprus was (together with germany) the only nation that was absolutely adamant on turkey not joining the EU. Even germany had more of a 'not in the near future' stance, but cyprus (due to the cyprus conflict) ruled it out completely. And a veto of cyprus is enough to make it impossible for turkey to join even tho cyprus is little.
Britain itself often used its influence in the EU to get its way even tho it was in minority.
You can call that undemocratic itself, but i doubt parts of the HRE or the nazi reich could have done that

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 22, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 22, 2016 ---

EDIT:

So, new terrorstrike in germany since some hours.
I didnt wanna write before i know what is up, but there is a speculation now which seems to be likely.

There is talk about three shooters in munich, and it looks a lot like rightwing terror.
It is breivik's fifth anniversary and there is talk about one of them shouting 'fucking migrants' and shooting people.

All of them are still on the run, 3 people are confirmed dead, and there is talk about actually 11 victims already.

Boy do i hope i am wrong on this speculation.
Munich's inner city is completely shut down by now.

 

[Philia]

I am not sure about this. The Us-french-UK participation and support of the kurds helped quite a lot against ISIS.
Naturally there were dead civllians, but saying france killed civillians on purpose goes to far here (exspecially looking at the source it comes from when russia backs assad and bombs quite much more carelessly).
The laternative to the french bombings would possibly lead to more dead civllians since ISIS would not be on the retreat they are now.
It was the same really with the french mission in mali.
I know that france has a very large muslim population and quite some trouble with islamism and poverty and crime, exspecially when looking at places like the banlieues, but i do not think attacks would stop or diminish by stopping engagement in the middle east.

I doN't think islamism in france will ever stop before kickstarting economical change in the more impoverished regions, which can be rather problematic in a very paris-focussed country like france.

Russia's strikes are backed by Asad. Thus not a violation of international law. While US-UK-French force just invade Syrian sky and bomb. Like it or not Asad is still in power at Syria. So if US &others wants to fight Isis is Syria, they should be coordinating with Syrian force. Not to mention media is biased both ways. Every Russian strikes are bashed in everywhere. While there are hardly any news about other bombing killing civilians.

I agree there are other issues in France. But actively taking part in these strikes helps no one. Singapore has a higher percentage of Muslim population. But never hard of any terrorist attack in Singapore. I have a lot of Muslim friends in London. And I can say that they don't like it when they see other Muslim countries are being bombed by UK.Refugee crisis has a lot to do with these bombings as well. In France there are a lot of issues. Like Muslims are segregated and discriminated. I think rest of the world should leave ME alone. Forced democracy is not always a good thing.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 23, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 23, 2016 ---

I
The Tories are a pro-EU party. All of the big political parties are.

I wouldn't have complained if it were Remain because I would be dignified. Now, the students like yourself are coming out of the woodwork to bash at the common folk for not voting to your design. 60% of younger millennials (18-24) didn't bother to vote. Blame them, not old people who also voted Remain.

Democracy has spoken. Get over it.

How about conservative MPs like Boris Johnson who campaigned for brexit? As much as I agree that was a democratic decision and we should get over it, that doesn't change the fact that it was a bad decision. Wait till we're completely out of EU. I doubt UK will get favourable trade deals. Not to mention, the downfall of our currency. Also you can check that majority of the younger voters voted to stay while older ones voted more too leave. And many voted without knowing what EU is. Oh the democracy.

 

[g01]

Btw I know I said that Erdoğan did this coup for himself but I changed my mind.
Gülen and his followers were always strong in turkey but seriously everyone knew how strong they were. My parents are teacher and in schools gülen's followers always get the be associate director or director. Just a year ago I entered universty entrence exam and everyone(but really everyone) knows that gülen's courses have the questions of universty entrence exam. Their last public exam got 5 same question with universty entrence exam. (and we all know that they share more of these questions with other gülen's followers).
Not only in this case but they are active in every industry.
My cousin is lawyer and she too thought that it was Erdoğan's doing but after looking at the files of those who get fired she thinks that they really deserve this. Most of them has so much money and more than one house(it might sound normal but it is not for regular teacher to have so much saved money with numerous houses).
My father said that they really only fired the people who supports gülen from schools too. Same goes for judges too.
And you can see why opposition parties(chp and mhp) didn't say anything about these actions because they are following it carefully and they say that they do not touch people who does not support gülen. That's why most of the people actually happy about this, from the very beginning people always tell that gülen communitarians got these jobs thanks to their connections. (btw there is no one in my family that actually likes erdoğan).

 

[shionoro]

Btw I know I said that Erdoğan did this coup for himself but I changed my mind.
Gülen and his followers were always strong in turkey but seriously everyone knew how strong they were. My parents are teacher and in schools gülen's followers always get the be associate director or director. Just a year ago I entered universty entrence exam and everyone(but really everyone) knows that gülen's courses have the questions of universty entrence exam. Their last public exam got 5 same question with universty entrence exam. (and we all know that they share more of these questions with other gülen's followers).
Not only in this case but they are active in every industry.
My cousin is lawyer and she too thought that it was Erdoğan's doing but after looking at the files of those who get fired she thinks that they really deserve this. Most of them has so much money and more than one house(it might sound normal but it is not for regular teacher to have so much saved money with numerous houses).
My father said that they really only fired the people who supports gülen from schools too. Same goes for judges too.
And you can see why opposition parties(chp and mhp) didn't say anything about these actions because they are following it carefully and they say that they do not touch people who does not support gülen. That's why most of the people actually happy about this, from the very beginning people always tell that gülen communitarians got these jobs thanks to their connections. (btw there is no one in my family that actually likes erdoğan).

The thing is that there are no direct proofs connecting gülen to that coup.
It would make even less sense the more powerful he is.
If someone who holds that amount of power wants to bet everything on one card and coup, then it would have probably been even bigger. But to my knowledge, there was no significant number of gülen supporters on the street.
As it stands now, it rather seems like isolated kemalist military circles tried to coup than anything else (if we don't want to delve into Conspiracy territory),
However, Erdogan, without any proof, instantly was convinced gülen is the one to blame and now cleans the ranks.

It looks awfully lot like he takes this opportunity to get rid of a big part of gülen's power to me (and it has to be said that erdogan was an ally of gülen, helping him to take said power once upon a time).

 

[g01]

The thing is that there are no direct proofs connecting gülen to that coup.
It would make even less sense the more powerful he is.
If someone who holds that amount of power wants to bet everything on one card and coup, then it would have probably been even bigger. But to my knowledge, there was no significant number of gülen supporters on the street.
As it stands now, it rather seems like isolated kemalist military circles tried to coup than anything else (if we don't want to delve into Conspiracy territory),
However, Erdogan, without any proof, instantly was convinced gülen is the one to blame and now cleans the ranks.

It looks awfully lot like he takes this opportunity to get rid of a big part of gülen's power to me (and it has to be said that erdogan was an ally of gülen, helping him to take said power once upon a time).

Well soldiers that tried to coup confessed that they are gülen's followers.Gülen is powerful but he doesn't have the numbers.
During the coup attempt soldiers make an announcement from TRT channel.It is mostly about "we will bring atatürk's rules" but kemalists and nationalists generals were the ones who saved erdoğan,even erdoğan said that.From what I get gülen was expecting kemalists and nationalists to join the coup.
CHP leader and MHP leader also confirmed that.
I don't know I think there was a coup but indeed like you said erdoğan is getting rid of them now.Of cource they were best buddies back than and that's why people from chp and mhp dislike gülen communitarians so much,even now we are all happy to see these people are getting fired from their jobs.(I know this might be something so cruel to say but they did so much injustice)

 

[shionoro]

Well soldiers that tried to coup confessed that they are gülen's followers.Gülen is powerful but he doesn't have the numbers.
During the coup attempt soldiers make an announcement from TRT channel.It is mostly about "we will bring atatürk's rules" but kemalists and nationalists generals were the ones who saved erdoğan,even erdoğan said that.From what I get gülen was expecting kemalists and nationalists to join the coup.
CHP leader and MHP leader also confirmed that.
I don't know I think there was a coup but indeed like you said erdoğan is getting rid of them now.Of cource they were best buddies back than and that's why people from chp and mhp dislike gülen communitarians so much,even now we are all happy to see these people are getting fired from their jobs.(I know this might be something so cruel to say but they did so much injustice)

The thing is that it is not appropiate to just get rid of everyone who was ever affiliated with Gülen, exspecially not if you yourself supported him into that position. Conservative guesses think that there are at least 200.000 direct supporters ofGülen in Turkey with many more people being influenced by him.
That is not a small numbers. Still there were no Gülen supporters on the street and most of the soldiers only followed orders without being notified about what they were doing. This does not add up in my opinion.
It is also no proof that people say gülen was involved. There is no proof until today that withstands international investigation.
If Erdogan had one, who would present it to the US to finally get Gülen to Turkey.
What erdogan does is imprison or at least fire everyone who was involved with gülen schools or gülen himself. And that does not seem like a justified response, because most of those people just did something erdogan himself supported not long ago.
You'd either have to believe that almost none of the Gülen people knew about the coup, because none of them were on the street (and 200.000, as i said, is not a number of people you'd take likely if they speak with one voice), or that it wasnt gülen after all.

It is a magic trick: erdogan builds up gülen to do all the things he did, and when people were annoyed with gülen and resented it (even chp and mhp), he gets rid of him/his influence and people cheer.

 

[g01]

The thing is that it is not appropiate to just get rid of everyone who was ever affiliated with Gülen, exspecially not if you yourself supported him into that position. Conservative guesses think that there are at least 200.000 direct supporters ofGülen in Turkey with many more people being influenced by him.
That is not a small numbers. Still there were no Gülen supporters on the street and most of the soldiers only followed orders without being notified about what they were doing. This does not add up in my opinion.
It is also no proof that people say gülen was involved. There is no proof until today that withstands international investigation.
If Erdogan had one, who would present it to the US to finally get Gülen to Turkey.
What erdogan does is imprison or at least fire everyone who was involved with gülen schools or gülen himself. And that does not seem like a justified response, because most of those people just did something erdogan himself supported not long ago.
You'd either have to believe that almost none of the Gülen people knew about the coup, because none of them were on the street (and 200.000, as i said, is not a number of people you'd take likely if they speak with one voice), or that it wasnt gülen after all.

It is a magic trick: erdogan builds up gülen to do all the things he did, and when people were annoyed with gülen and resented it (even chp and mhp), he gets rid of him/his influence and people cheer.

Well I can easly say that he is not getting rid of everyone who was ever affiliated with Gülen,some people does not have anything to do with gülen.(most likely there will some people who got fired even though they do not work for gülen)
Yes there are lots of people supports him but ,as I said before, none in this country supports coup.No matter who you are or who do you support everyone suffered greatly during 1960 and 1982 coups.So if gülen said everyone of his supporters to join the coup them most of them would turn against him.My friends family(uncles and aunts) are in gülen communitarians too and after they heard of this and search for it,they hated gülen for this.(and they are convinced that it was gülen too).
As I said gülen's generals are in small numbers and they expected chp and mhp to help them but they didn't that's why they lost this fight imo.
I mean gülen is very good tool for US,even now he is strong in turkey.(no matter how many people they fired or arrest they can't kill them or erase them).
No if you ask me that is a justified response,only difference is erdoğan deserve that response too(ı hope he will get that someday)

It wasn't that simple,everything was fine;erdoğan was ruling the country and gülen got so many followers in army,police and judiciary but they fought so hard when gülen wanted MIT(National Intelligence Organization).

 

[shionoro]

Well I can easly say that he is not getting rid of everyone who was ever affiliated with Gülen,some people does not have anything to do with gülen.(most likely there will some people who got fired even though they do not work for gülen)
Yes there are lots of people supports him but ,as I said before, none in this country supports coup.No matter who you are or who do you support everyone suffered greatly during 1960 and 1982 coups.So if gülen said everyone of his supporters to join the coup them most of them would turn against him.My friends family(uncles and aunts) are in gülen communitarians too and after they heard of this and search for it,they hated gülen for this.(and they are convinced that it was gülen too).
As I said gülen's generals are in small numbers and they expected chp and mhp to help them but they didn't that's why they lost this fight imo.
I mean gülen is very good tool for US,even now he is strong in turkey.(no matter how many people they fired or arrest they can't kill them or erase them).
No if you ask me that is a justified response,only difference is erdoğan deserve that response too(ı hope he will get that someday)

It wasn't that simple,everything was fine;erdoğan was ruling the country and gülen got so many followers in army,police and judiciary but they fought so hard when gülen wanted MIT(National Intelligence Organization).

I still find that this makes no real sense.
Because if gülen thinks that his own supporters will turn away from him if he coups, how could he then bet on the CHP joining the coup?
And how would CHP and MHP reasonably help them? Rally their supporters to join the coupists? That is something a party MIGHT do if it is absolutely sure the coup will occur,, but no party is so stupid to join a coup when it begins.
One would have to exspect gülen is extremely stupid, and if he was, he wouldnt have the power he has.

Furthermore: If the coup really came out of the blue for the turkish government, it cannot have had that many people involved.
There are more than 6.000 people currently arrested directly due to the coup. If really that many people even knew about it (leave alone being involved) there is no way that the turkish secret service did not know about it.
So it is either the conspiracy theory that they in fact knew or the more likely theory that they are imprisoning people left and right without any tangible proof but rather because they have a good chance to do that now.

Why would highranking judges be included, for example, into coupist actions? They serve no purpose in a coup, because after the coup, the military would take up judicative actions anyway.
Why would teachers in schools be included into a coup?
Or journalists?

This is all just to diminish gülen's power.
And even if we assume that he was responsible for the coup (something i don't buy), then it would be unfair towards these people because most of them were definitely not involved into the coup but rather just connected to a previously legal movement which erdogan himself supported for a long time.

Just recently, Mevlüt Cavusoglu, turkish minister for foreign affairs, said that the US should hand over Gülen without being given a proof.
That is awfully telling. It is pretty clear they just don't have any. And Cavusoglu knows that and he also knows the US won't hand over Gülen.
They can present people saying gülen was involved as much as they want (and we do know that erdogan has the power to forge documents if he wants to or wash away others, like in the corruption scandal), but they have nothing that can withstand international investigation.
And it is really not like the US and EU don't want a good relationship with turkey.
The US would be more than happy if turkey was stabile and they could keep on their anti ISIS mission uninterrupted by handing over Gülen if there was proof. The Eu would be more than happy to be able to present Erdogan as democratic and reliable to keep on their refugee dea.
But they can't, because there is no proof for Gülen's involvement and their is hardly transparency in the mass imprisonment that happened lately.