Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2015-2016] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Kave]

more than 30k for sure

 

[cue1996]

Since we're talking about Toriko here are the volume sales from when it started till now. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1369397

 

[savethecat]

I predict Neverland will do 40k

 

[Azure Warrior]

Still no Hinomaru Zumou anime announcement, Jump why u keep doing this to me, why? ;-;

I think the thing that's stopping it from getting an anime is how incredible niche it is. Or just sumo in general as a manga genre.

Sure Zumo did well in the rankings for quite some time, but we rarely see it high on the charts within a full 2 year run. I don't know, maybe a studio has to be interesting in making an anime for it. Not like it would change much if we saw how little Saiki's anime did for the manga's sales.

 

[tirakai]

One thing of note about Zumou is that there's actually not that much left to go, unless there's a sudden big new development it's likely only got about 30 chapters left (putting it at around 150 total and just after the third anniversary).

So who knows, perhaps it has gained attention from someone but they're planning on doing the whole thing in one (it'd fit 3 cour pretty well). A 1 or 2 cour announced now would probably be airing when the manga ends anyway.

 

[Tamil]

That's not even what I said. Toriko was cancelled and DBZ Kai had to fill its slot as a result its ironic because DBZ Kai was cancelled for Toriko back in 2011 since that wasn't performing well either.

You don't understand what cancelled means. It was simply put on hiatus.

Can you name many shounen anime that had the same type of treatment as Toriko? Didn't think so. Also you're miseschewing what me and xAsum0x are saying, Toriko only performed badly in comparison to the expectations Shuiesha had for it by itself it did fine but the very fact that it was promoted alongside One Piece and DBZ FOR YEARS you cannot negate the fact that they expected to it to have the same level of success as them or else why the hell was it constantly promoted alongside them when it had much lower sales and rankings?

Answer a question with another question is poor rebutting. You were implying that it wasn't successful when you bolded that I said it was a successful anime. Didn't I establish that both One Piece & DBZ success are rarities and you yourself said that they're the top selling series of all time. With that in mind; who honestly expected Toriko to become one of it's successor/replacement? No one or did they expect for a new series to come close to it's success. It was only assumed so by idiots, the same ones who thought Academia would replace/surpass Naruto. It's the same situation and Shuiesha never expected Toriko or Academia to overtake/replace One Piece or Naruto's success respectively. If they had that in mind (which would be very stupid of them) then both series would've gotten axed ages ago.

It doesn't hurt to use common sense in this situation. If Toriko wasn't meeting Toei's expectation, they've would've "canned" the series a lot sooner than 147 episodes. Toei isn't stupid and it was very clear to determine Toriko's level of success from the ratings of the first 10 or so episodes.

Toriko essentially provided Toei with another stream of revenue. That's all Toei wanted and that's exactly what they got. It was a great investment for them.

They are most definitely are a push. A crossover between One Piece and DBZ, two of the most successful and popular manga in Jump history, makes sense. A crossover between One Piece and Toriko, the best selling manga of all time and....the manga from the guy who did Seikimatsu Leader Den Takeshi!, OP benefits nothing from the crossover while Toriko does and this isn't even something people remotely want given Toriko had significantly lower ratings than One Piece. The Nisekoi and Haikyuu crossover was a joke much like the Isobee and MHA crossovers and they certainly wasn't making front cover headlines like the One Piece and Toriko one.

That's still a crossover. Comedy or not. You notice how Toriko got a crossover in 2011 & 2013? All of 2012 it got nothing and still did well. If people don't like the show then they won't tune in every week but Toriko managed to maintain a consistent amount of viewers each week (hence why it ranked almost all the time in Japan Top 10 TV rankings). Are you seriously going to say a crossover did that? If Toriko maintained it's viewership throughout it's entire run, then who do we praise Toriko or One Piece? I think the answer is very obvious, Toriko.

The first crossover scored around a 8% TV rating I believe and ever since then Toriko maintained a 6-7% TV rating. It was around a 5% average TV rating near it's end iirc so the Dragon Ball crossover did nothing. The crossovers only really happened since they were part of the same block.

Toriko has very middling rankings that eventually dropped to where it now constantly occupies the bottom 3 and its sales were no where near the amount that the crossovers were made because of its popularity it was made because it needed the support, they also tried double billing its movie with the 3D One Piece movie then when it had a movie by itself it bombed hard alongside the merch for it. Oda is good friends with Kishimoto you don't see One Piece and Naruto getting crossovers constantly maybe because they do well by themselves and their consistent rivalry with one another is what made them see each other as equals rather than having to piggyback off one another. So yes Mitsutoshi was very fortunate to have friends in high places and he more than likely didn't expect all this pushing for a series he worked hard on and its unfortunate that it won't be remembered as anything other than Shuiesha's blunder of the decade.

Huh? I'm taking about during/prior to it's anime, what you bolded was me referring to prior it's anime. Toriko was getting great rankings then. In the first year of it's publication, it had an average ranking of little over 3.0.

Why didn't Naruto get one? It's not with Toei. A Naruto and One Piece crossover would be awful to say the least since they're not that similar.

Lol so you're saying Mitsutoshi was piggybacking off One Piece/Oda? Get real.What a perfect way to undermine a mangaka success...(/sarcasm)

You really have a tendency of assuming that everyone thinks like you. It won't be remembered as Shueisha's blunder since it consistently got around 5-7% TV rating through out it's entire run. Maybe by people like you who had retarded expectations of it surpassing/reaching DBZ/One Piece success. However, those who aren't so ignorant won't view a successful anime/series in that fashion.

I mean seriously. People are going to forever wonder who this guy was and why was he alongside Goku, Luffy and Naruto all the damn time.

Says who? You? LOL. I don't think Japan would say that given that Toriko had millions of viewers each week during the anime's run. They very well understand the quality of the series.

Yep just like how Bleach is on hiatus and Reborn and Eyeshield 21 and Beelzebub and Medaka Box and Nura and Kochikame and...well you get the picture. I mean its been three years now and the manga is almost over I guess they're really just bidding their time with Dragonball Super as a placeholder just to make its return all the more rewarding right?

I never said it will happen now. In the future it's possible. Toei does reboot their franchises so I don't see why won't do it with Toriko. They obviously have bigger titles they can reboot now like Kinnikuman but saying Toriko will never get any form of anime adaptation in the future is unlikely.

Nope, it declined every year after its boost was finished and then after the anime ended it declined again, now the suppose next big thing is getting beaten by World Trigger and other Jump manga that began after it.

Decline is expected to happen but it was still relatively stable till this year if you look at individual volume sales. The rankings themselves dropped but were still high until this year.

I think this is the only factual statement in your post. Yes it was undermined a lot by the Bleach fandom who couldn't believe that all the pushing Shuiesha did only amounted to a marginal increase over Bleach that got pushed aside for the new kid on the block and now they continued to laugh at its fall into obscurity not realizing the irony in their own situation.
.

Nope, pretty much everything what I said was factual. Notice how most of your claims are supported with unreasonable assumptions? Mine can easily be supported with numbers.

 

[savethecat]

Toriko was a success. I think the point is though, Jump wanted it to be the next One Piece, Naruto and Dragon Ball. Series that are literally a huge part of Pop Culture. Toriko was a success, but never reached legendary status like jump wanted it.

 

[Tamil]

Toriko was a success. I think the point is though, Jump wanted it to be the next One Piece, Naruto and Dragon Ball. Series that are literally a huge part of Pop Culture. Toriko was a success, but never reached legendary status like jump wanted it.

I'm getting tired here. Yes it was successful but listen here...

Jump never expected it to reach One Piece/Naruto/DBZ success. Put yourself in the shoes of Shueisha/TOEI/investors; would you invest in a new series with the expectations of a return that meets the success level of One Piece or DBZ? Both series that literally are the pinnacle of the manga/anime industry? Ofc not...you can't "fabricate" that level of success or popularity in general.

 

[savethecat]

I'm getting tired here. Yes it was successful but listen here...

Jump never expected it to reach One Piece/Naruto/DBZ success. Put yourself in the shoes of Shueisha/TOEI/investors; would you invest in a new series with the expectations of a return that meets the success level of One Piece or DBZ? Both series that literally are the pinnacle of the manga/anime industry? Ofc not...you can't "fabricate" that level of success or popularity in general.

Seems as though it's a pretty unanimous opinion in the anime/manga community that Shuiesha and Jump force fed Toriko to it's readers. Again, that's not to say that it's unpopular and that people disliked it. But almost everyone tends to agree that Toriko has substantially more pushing than most series.

It's true that you can't fabricate level of success. However, companies(not just in Anime, but here in America too) continuously do this. Try to force tv shows, movies, musicians, books, ect. into being huge mega hits, but half the time it doesn't work

 

[Tamil]

Seems as though it's a pretty unanimous opinion in the anime/manga community that Shuiesha and Jump force fed Toriko to it's readers. Again, that's not to say that it's unpopular and that people disliked it. But almost everyone tends to agree that Toriko has substantially more pushing than most series.

It's true that you can't fabricate level of success. However, companies(not just in Anime, but here in America too) continuously do this. Try to force tv shows, movies, musicians, books, ect. into being huge mega hits, but half the time it doesn't work

I wouldn't say it was force fed. Even if it did; it wouldn't have guaranteed it's level of success it had. No matter how you look at it, Toriko for the most part earned it's success if it maintained it's viewership.

Forceful marketing is terrible and has serious repercussions...

 

[Drmke]

I want Zumou to continue, but I won't necessarily be sad if it ends. Like tiraki said, it could very easily end in a satisfying way at any time right now. I just hope Kawada gets to come back; he's fucking earned it.

 

[WyldViolet]

Toriko was heavily pushed yes, but given the situation I don't blame Shueshia for putting forth the investment.
Leader Den Takeshi actually debuted in the same serialization batch as One Piece. It was incredibly popular while running (consistently ranked top 5, high tank sales, even won a few awards.)
and was from an at the time a brand new Rookie mangaka and debuted and became hugely popular at a time when Jump experienced a huge burst in creative and financial growth after the post Dragon Ball decline.

Imagine what it must have been like for Shimabukuro's after the scandal.
Oda and Takei started their careers around at the same time as him and from my knowledge they were also all friends.
I'm sure the editorial department was anxious to get him back once they were able to, and his friendship with Oda probably helped as well.
I just see it as helping a friend of the magazine out. A mangaka who never got to reach his full potential during his youth.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2016 ---

I want Zumou to continue, but I won't necessarily be sad if it ends. Like tiraki said, it could very easily end in a satisfying way at any time right now. I just hope Kawada gets to come back; he's fucking earned it.

Really hoping he'll come back with a battle manga.
Feel like he'd pull of a Yu Yu Hakusho toned series incredibly well and would cement his status as an S List mangaka.

 

[Tamil]

Toriko was heavily pushed yes, but given the situation I don't blame Shueshia for putting forth the investment.
Leader Den Takeshi actually debuted in the same serialization batch as One Piece. It was incredibly popular while running (consistently ranked top 5, high tank sales, even won a few awards.)
and was from an at the time a brand new Rookie mangaka and debuted and became hugely popular at a time when Jump experienced a huge burst in creative and financial growth after the post Dragon Ball decline.

Imagine what it must have been like for Shimabukuro's after the scandal.
Oda and Takei started their careers around at the same time as him and from my knowledge they were also all friends.
I'm sure the editorial department was anxious to get him back once they were able to, and his friendship with Oda probably helped as well.
I just see it as helping a friend of the magazine out. A mangaka who never got to reach his full potential during his youth.

Not only Mitsutoshi's past contributions in the magazine (Takeshi) but also Toriko's popularity in the magazine helped too.

 

[WyldViolet]

Not only Mitsutoshi's past contributions in the magazine (Takeshi) but also Toriko's popularity in the magazine helped too.

Oh definitely, I'm not one of the crazies who try and claim Toriko was never popular.
I do think it was very heavily promoted, but for a very fair and understandable reason, despite probably not become as achieving the success Jump might have been hoping for, but it no doubt was a popular series. Especially during a bit of a creative drought for Jump at the time (which is another reason why the series was so heavily pushed).

 

[ChocoBar9]

You don't understand what cancelled means. It was simply put on hiatus.

There is no official statement from the people in charge of the Toriko anime that states that its on hiatus. There is no official statement that states that they plan to continue the Toriko anime. All official statements say that the Toriko anime ENDED/ was cancelled. The only people who keep saying its on hiatus are delusional fans. Every single time a Gintama season ends there's always a statement that it'll return at some point in the future and there was no such statement for Toriko once it ended. Its time for you to face facts that if a series ceased production years ago with no sides of returning back to air then its probably cancelled.

Answer a question with another question is poor rebutting. You were implying that it wasn't successful when you bolded that I said it was a successful anime. Didn't I establish that both One Piece & DBZ success are rarities and you yourself said that they're the top selling series of all time. With that in mind; who honestly expected Toriko to become one of it's successor/replacement? No one or did they expect for a new series to come close to it's success. It was only assumed so by idiots, the same ones who thought Academia would replace/surpass Naruto. It's the same situation and Shuiesha never expected Toriko or Academia to overtake/replace One Piece or Naruto's success respectively. If they had that in mind (which would be very stupid of them) then both series would've gotten axed ages ago.

Shuiesha? That's why it was frequently promoted along side Dragonball and One Piece? You honestly cannot say that wasn't the case because it was billed heavily alongside them. To deny this is hysterical because it was even pointed out in Japan forums how aggressive their campaign was for Toriko to be the next big thing and it got really sad because Toriko's sales were nowhere near as impressive as them and it was less popular than a plethora of titles that was still running in Jump at the time. The difference between how Jump is handling MHA and Toriko is like night and day, you're not seeing MHA doing crossovers with Naruto or they same type of aggressive campaigning towards it at most you just see Kishimoto naming the series Naruto's successor and making it grow on its own instead of trying to be something its not.

It doesn't hurt to use common sense in this situation. If Toriko wasn't meeting Toei's expectation, they've would've "canned" the series a lot sooner than 147 episodes. Toei isn't stupid and it was very clear to determine Toriko's level of success from the ratings of the first 10 or so episodes.

That doesn't make sense and would be unethical to cancel a series within its first year given the amount of time and effort they put into selling it. They gave it three years to sell it it by its second year it was obvious that people wasn't biting. Also Toei makes lots of stupid decisions, Jesus Christ! DBZ Kai? Sailor Moon Crystal? Majin Bone? Look what they tried to do with Saint Seiya and how it blew up in their faces. Ever seen how the One Piece anime lately? You give them far too much leniency when they don't deserve it and the very fact that had to bring back DBZ Kai to fill in Toriko's slot is proof enough that it did badly because DBZ Kai was an admitted failure for them in Japan.

Toriko essentially provided Toei with another stream of revenue. That's all Toei wanted and that's exactly what they got. It was a great investment for them.

Such a great investment that it was cancelled after three years and its net worth profit was worth so much that they've done absolutely nothing with the property since the anime ended. I mean at least Bleach had that successful mobage game after its respective anime ended but Toriko has gotten nothing despite the fact that it had a timeskip and its near its conclusion and not a hint of a return. Yep this just shows how much that property meant to them.

That's still a crossover. Comedy or not. You notice how Toriko got a crossover in 2011 & 2013? All of 2012 it got nothing and still did well. If people don't like the show then they won't tune in every week but Toriko managed to maintain a consistent amount of viewers each week (hence why it ranked almost all the time in Japan Top 10 TV rankings). Are you seriously going to say a crossover did that? If Toriko maintained it's viewership throughout it's entire run, then who do we praise Toriko or One Piece? I think the answer is very obvious, Toriko.

It didn't do "well". Its sales started slip from the previous year and the merch sales were already not meeting expectations (Gourmet Battles was a flop). Also you may want to actually look at its ratings numbers instead of it being ranked in the top percentile, it was ranked because of its timeslot being shared alongside One Piece but its ratings was a steep down from DBZ Kai a show deemed a failure so the people that tuned in were either waiting for One Piece to come on (hence the jump) or weren't making up a significant share left from Kai.

The first crossover scored around a 8% TV rating I believe and ever since then Toriko maintained a 6-7% TV rating. It was around a 5% average TV rating near it's end iirc so the Dragon Ball crossover did nothing. The crossovers only really happened since they were part of the same block.

Because that was the series premiere and a double billing which occupied the One Piece timeslot, the second one that aired a year later scored even less and the last one with Dragonball scored lesser than that which means that Toriko was actually the weak link carrying it down.

Huh? I'm taking about during/prior to it's anime, what you bolded was me referring to prior it's anime. Toriko was getting great rankings then. In the first year of it's publication, it had an average ranking of little over 3.0.

I was too and no it wasn't doing exceptional at all before they started promoting it alongside One Piece even Nura was regularly beating it in the rankings.

Why didn't Naruto get one? It's not with Toei. A Naruto and One Piece crossover would be awful to say the least since they're not that similar.

So you're saying that Toei is the only one that makes these crossovers and that the thought of anime crossovers have never come to mind before then yet Toriko is an exception because its somehow just as popular as DBZ and One Piece to be given a crossover with it and its not at all a marketing ploy to push Toriko but just something they made to celebrate its "popularity" when Naruto never had one because it was already super popular? Okay

Lol so you're saying Mitsutoshi was piggybacking off One Piece/Oda? Get real.What a perfect way to undermine a mangaka success...(/sarcasm)

Yep. Not denying that his last series wasn't a huge success but you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that Toriko didn't survive largely due to Shuiesha banking on its potential as the next big thing with help from One Piece ESPECIALLY with how its doing right now in its last arc in terms of ratings and sales. So what's going to be your excuse now? As a reader I can damn well tell you that this arc isn't bad enough to be consistently at the bottom of the polls ala Bleach.

You really have a tendency of assuming that everyone thinks like you. It won't be remembered as Shueisha's blunder since it consistently got around 5-7% TV rating through out it's entire run. Maybe by people like you who had retarded expectations of it surpassing/reaching DBZ/One Piece success. However, those who aren't so ignorant won't view a successful anime/series in that fashion.

Trust me, you don't want to know what Japan really thinks about Toriko after this whole debacle. It's going to be remembered as a blunder alright. A canceled anime with several failed attempts at trying to market it as a pillar for Jump alongside Naruto and One Piece and now in its current arc it sits at the bottom of the polls getting beaten by series that didn't have anywhere near the same push or expectations on them and Shueisha is obviously taking this lesson to heart given how overly cautious they've been towards marketing their successful titles nowadays. Its going to be seen as a blunder to many people even though by all accounts its a solid series that did well for itself through its run

Says who? You? LOL. I don't think Japan would say that given that Toriko had millions of viewers each week during the anime's run. They very well understand the quality of the series.

Yeah which is why it got cancelled. You're still acting as if people care about ratings (which weren't even that good) from years ago when the bottom line is simple. Is Toriko still on TV? No. Are they any plans for Toriko to come back? No. And what are Toriko's current sales and rankings are? But I've said enough the evidence is clear and you just have a hard time accepting this fact.

I never said it will happen now. In the future it's possible. Toei does reboot their franchises so I don't see why won't do it with Toriko. They obviously have bigger titles they can reboot now like Kinnikuman but saying Toriko will never get any form of anime adaptation in the future is unlikely.

Yes...their successful franchise in which Toriko ain't. If they wanted to reboot Kinnikuman they would have done so years ago with the manga continuing or hell even years before than with the Tag Team Dream matches of Nisei but since that series failed they don't want to touch it but hell if Tiger Mask can get a new anime after many years I suppose anything is possible.

Decline is expected to happen but it was still relatively stable till this year if you look at individual volume sales. The rankings themselves dropped but were still high until this year.

Yes decline is expected especially after losing an anime (just look at Bleach) but its relative threshold has decreased since its peak.

Nope, pretty much everything what I said was factual.

Notice how most of your claims are supported with unreasonable assumptions? Mine can easily be supported with numbers.

I've seen nothing in regards to Toriko being on hiatus and you've failed to provide evidence on everything you said. Anyone with half a brain can see what Shuiesha was trying to do with Toriko and to see it blow up in their face is a sight to behold given all the cover spreads and cross promotion it garnered. One thing you cannot try to spin in your favor is its sales and rankings which are very much reflective of how much people actually do care about Toriko and how popular it truly is but I can already see you're planning to make a rebuttal anyways.

 

[vampire killer]

Tiger Mask got new anime cos NJPW is promoting there product. NJPW is the real hero here. The reason the anime dosent have the usual TOEI QUALITY is cos TV asahi and NJPW gave them a lot of cash. Still seeing the RAINMAKER in anime is awesome.

 

[101nemesis]

I believe toriko's movie was the last big push they tried. I mean, the covers, cps and then game releases etc etc with an ongoing anime that year. That year was supposed to be the biggest for toriko but the sales still declined. And ever since then, wsj hardly promoted it despite its ranks still holding up somewhat for the next year.
I don't see the promotion for mha being too much since its ranked number one this year more than other series.
Also, is it really stupid of wsj for wanting another dbz or one piece? They won't get it unless they try to force an already well received series down more people's throats.

 

[justsomeguy]

Speaking of Toriko, it hasn't gotten a color page since 11 months ago (2015 #50) and no covers since 16 months (2015 #28). Jump really gave up on it.

Well, it has ranked 45 times since last color and 30 were bottom, so...

Spoiler

It's funny since Toriko fans used to make fun of Bleach for its ranks.

 

[Xzone]

Bushiroad(the one who own NJPW) is doing Tiger mask because the actual is near to 50 years, and need kids buying tiger mask's mask.
And is not the first time bushi promoted his wrestler, Okada (one of the character of Tiger mask W) appeared in one card game anime own by bushi, and he did the voice of one character of World trigger.

 

[CuriousReborn]

Speaking of Toriko, it hasn't gotten a color page since 11 months ago (2015 #50) and no covers since 16 months (2015 #28). Jump really gave up on it.

Well, it has ranked 45 times since last color and 30 were bottom, so...

Spoiler

It's funny since Toriko fans used to make fun of Bleach for its ranks.

I haven't been following Jump lately and I knew that Toriko was in decline, but I didn't know that it was that bad. Was it because of the anime loss, manga not being as good anymore or a combination of both ? I never read Toriko so I wouldn't know.