Discussion Elizabeth

[Gallon]

Them confessing that in the end is cheesy, the events leading up to it would be significantly more interesting than an ordinary love story. The turmoil that goes through them as they come to grips with the fact would be great to see, them reflecting on why they're together and why they love each other would be really good for the development of their relationship(because honestly i have no idea what they love about each other or why they're together), and it would make the manipulator(prob the SD) significantly more devious and interesting.
How exactly are Elizabeth and Meliodas portrayed? Hopelessly in love for no good reason? I'd be okay with a change in that portrayal.

Their love certainly led to the holy war, but not to the conflict, the war between the gods goes far beyond Mel and El's love story, imo their love is just a cog in the wheel of the gods greater conflict. As for their love ending up triumphant, nah, i doubt that in the end like that, imo it'll be the combined effort of the Sins, Elizabeth and possibly the entire country that'll do it. And while i do believe that in the end they'll break their curse, i think it will happen as an afterthought when all is said and done, an unexpected reward for their efforts.

Well, your opinion is your opinion. Genuine love between two conflicted races is the better scenario to me.

But regardless, they are all fighting for Mel and Ellie's sake. Their love ends up winning even if the curse is broken as a fortunate consequence rather than a well-thought plan.
They wanted to save the races from annihilation, and in they end they will very likely succeed. They're a third party which wants peace, unlike the gods' territorial tendencies. It doesn't sound logical that the Supreme Deity would have a finger in this issue to me. Meliodas and Elizabeth were rebellious towards their respective gods, and the scenario in which a god devised that very rebellion sounds... weird.

 

[Seven777]

Well, your opinion is your opinion. Genuine love between two conflicted races is the better scenario to me.

But regardless, they are all fighting for Mel and Ellie's sake. Their love ends up winning even if the curse is broken as a fortunate consequence rather than a well-thought plan.
They wanted to save the races from annihilation, and in they end they will very likely succeed. They're a third party which wants peace, unlike the gods' territorial tendencies. It doesn't sound logical that the Supreme Deity would have a finger in this issue to me. Meliodas and Elizabeth were rebellious towards their respective gods, and the scenario in which a god devised that very rebellion sounds... weird.

Them succeeding in their plan for peace will probably be a one in a million long shot that no one would ever think would happen, the SD taking or perhaps not even considering the risk of their success would probably be worth the gain of robbing the DK of his son, heir and most valuable chess piece, at least thats how i see it

 

[Gallon]

Them succeeding in their plan for peace will probably be a one in a million long shot that no one would ever think would happen, the SD taking or perhaps not even considering the risk of their success would probably be worth the gain of robbing the DK of his son, heir and most valuable chess piece, at least thats how i see it

Why not just kill Meliodas? That's a far safer method. The thing is, gods don't seem to be able to interfere whenever they want to.

 

[Seven777]

Why not just kill Meliodas? That's a far safer method. The thing is, gods don't seem to be able to interfere whenever they want to.

Then the DK would know about it and possibly take action himself, i get the feeling that if she were to take action she would want to be low key about it. Or maybe the DK would just bring Mel back to life. Or it could be like you said, they cant interfere whenever they want to, perhaps brainwashing was all that the SD could accomplish within those limitations, though then we'd have to ask ourselves how the two managed to curse Elizabeth and Meliodas

 

[Gallon]

Then the DK would know about it and possibly take action himself, i get the feeling that if she were to take action she would want to be low key about it. Or maybe the DK would just bring Mel back to life. Or it could be like you said, they cant interfere whenever they want to, perhaps brainwashing was all that the SD could accomplish within those limitations, though then we'd have to ask ourselves how the two managed to curse Elizabeth and Meliodas

I don't know... if it were so, it's a bit weird how the DK didn't think of corrupting Mael. It's as if they can't do much about what goes on in Britannia.
But yes, it's odd how they fought and cursed the two lovers.

 

[Seven777]

I don't know... if it were so, it's a bit weird how the DK didn't think of corrupting Mael. It's as if they can't do much about what goes on in Britannia.
But yes, it's odd how they fought and cursed the two lovers.

I agree it is weird, maybe its all like a chess game to those two and they're not allowed to interfere directly with their pieces without consent from the other. As for why Mael wasnt corrupted, could be that the SD is willing to cheat and the DK isnt, i feel like she's gonna be the more devious of the two, though i cant really back that up since weve seen even less of her than the DK. Or it could be that Mael isnt worth his salt if the SD takes back the grace while Meliodas still is without his commandment.
But yeah, i dunno, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Gut's is the man]

My apologies.



There is nothing wrong with Otaku's initial post. I'm quite surprised by the turn around though, I thought he was a die hard Elizabeth fan.

theres' a different between supporter and outright denying obvious facts in canon.

 

[T25]

4 of them were light energy though.

What was the point of it all? That is a fundamentally valid question no?

Spoiler

Remember these four light wings?

Spoiler

They turned out to be real

Spoiler

Remember this shadow?

Spoiler

What does it mean? Is there any difference in questions it brings and answers to be or not be told?

 

[Inuhanyou123]

with that in mind, would not mind that elizabeth's 8 wings are brought back

 

[T25]

with that in mind, would not mind that elizabeth's 8 wings are brought back

Always wanted to see them again. But I’m in no rush.

 

[Inuhanyou123]

Always wanted to see them again. But I’m in no rush.

we have less a year, so its gotta be soon

 

[ShadowHeart]

What was the point of it all? That is a fundamentally valid question no?

Spoiler

Remember these four light wings?

Spoiler

They turned out to be real

Spoiler

Remember this shadow?

Spoiler

What does it mean? Is there any difference in questions it brings and answers to be or not be told?

Really using them pics? If Elizabeth can show me 8 wings with using a technique I'll consider it.

 

[T25]

Really using them pics? If Elizabeth can show me 8 wings with using a technique I'll consider it.

Will you now? I’d imagine that something thrown in your face saying “look” would warrant something as bare minimum as consideration. What do you mean by consider?

 

[Undina]

Yeah thats a big post... i think we'll just have to wait for the actual fight, but since i might've started this(cant remember) i'll try to address your points
a) We dont even know it is possible to absorb the graces. And as for them making her "even more of an exception to Sariel's statement" that is exactly why it shouldnt happen, we shouldnt be looking for exceptions to Sariel's statement, otherwise there'd be no point in having him make it. Sariel said it would take a giant, a human, a fairy or Gowther to beat Mael, i fully expect this to be the case, there is no reason for Elizabeth to become an "exception", especially with Sariel being too dead to realize he was wrong

We don't know if it isn't, so far the possibility is 50/50 in each way and since some characters, regardless of original race, are absorbing decrees, I don't see why a royal goddess(in HER human body) can't absorb them; long before her true identity and power were awakened, her physical body's blood served very well as replacement for countless goddess lives and power to release 9/10 Commandments. Her body isn't that of a full human, nor a foreign waiting room for a goddess soul till their true body is restored. I'm sure she can even hold them without the repercussions Escanor's enduring from Sunshine. IIRC, Sariel was already proven wrong because he said that a fairy or a giant or a human or Gowther should be able to defeat him, basically implying a solo, which is ridiculous, they are all already fighting as a team, together, so the victory belongs to all involved, when it happens. Also, Sariel's body, not soul, that is very likely either back in the CR or whatever afterlife goddesses souls get once they die, is dead, so, one more mistake won't kill him Oops, too soon.

b) I agree Elizabeth is as you described, a "lowkey fighter", but having the graces removes her from that position, she'd be too powerful, having any character on the alliances side become as powerful as Mael is incredibly unlikely, let alone Elizabeth

No, it doesn't, she'd still go for her alternative methods, not burning her opponents to crisps with an OP ark and she'll still mainly focus on Meliodas, as she always did, and I think she'd be adequately powerful for her standing and involvement in the war, you keep forgetting Mael arrived at the party a tad too late and if you're gonna buy the fact that an archangel, no matter how impressive as a warrior he is, can gobble up antagonistic energy and power-up like it's no man's business, it's ridiculous that you can't see Elizabeth would naturally have an affinity with her mother's power, just like Mel or Zel with their father's.

c) Being a protagonist doesnt make her a fighter, Meliodas fills that role. Elizabeth has been a protagonist since the start of the series, and she was never what you'd call conventionally powerful til chapter 200+. Its simply not the role Nakaba made her for, her abilities and her personality are built around healing and helping people, have been since the start of the series and since awakening to her powers that hasnt changed. Just look at what she did last chapter, thats what you can expect more of from her this fight.

Good heavens, who even wants her to be an actual/standard fighter?! And being powerful=/=being a fighter, nor the the reverse is valid. Her mother looks nothing like a fighter and has nothing about her implying she'd even like joining a battlefield, however, it goes without the shadow of a doubt she has the power to smite whomever she pleases, minus her counterpart. Ellie's abilities and personality are built around those things you mentioned and taking action even against unfortunate odds, her ark against Derrieri happened before ch 200(ch 188), the insinuation that she's fought by Mel's side ever since the AHW was around ch 50, the link with Liz(a standard fighter, ironically) started being established even before that, you're not acknowledging Elizabeth in her entirety and the design of Elizabeth sporting 8 wings, even if for a moment, hasn't been taken back, so, it really doesn't matter whether Nakaba has started technically portraying her as conventionally powerful from day 1 or chapter 200+, he's implied her importance to the main plot since the beginning.
She's just reiterated her main 2 wishes since when?(forever, when it comes to the war) And added the desire to stop/save Mael.I don't see her keeping her promise with only healing her party. Especially since the make-up of her party and King and Diane's upcoming development should render her healing nigh irrelevant, King has both defense and healing forms for Chastiefol, Diane has body strengthening skills and she should soon display her own version of an OP Diamond Form, Ellie's healing doesn't work at all on Gowther.
Plus, she does have a fighting side to her, even if standard fighting would be her last resort. Have you forgotten how she did her part in convincing King to rejoin the Sins back in the CotD?! She was trying to take Chastiefol and use it to fight along Mel & Diane VS Guila. And a slight reminder of the fact that VS stands for VERSUS(a word addressing fighting), or Nakaba himself tells everyone that Elizabeth did fight the Indura(he titled chapter 208 "Elizabeth VERSUS Indura"), but no, readers still look for excuses to leave the players who don't go for bloodshed out of the fighters' tree-house. Nvm that Merlin and Gowther himself aren't big fans of bloodshed either, but they're still allowed in.

d) Gowther has the most connection and investment in this fight. And i'm afraid you're wrong about Elizabeth preceding Gowther in importance to Mael, Gowther is many times more important to him, which is why he completely ignored Elizabeth in favor of his revenge against Gowther.

He didn't ignore Elizabeth, he decided to kill her along with the rest of the people there, he even killed his long-time friends and allies for wanting to release him of the corruption induced by the decrees, even if he implied he did understand their reasoning to a degree. He wanted to kill her for rejecting him even before he awakened to his Mael identity.
I used the word "preceding" with its other meaning, the chronological one, and that subplot still needs to be resolved, she still needs to personally, fully cut him off, otherwise, all her determination and confidence built in the scene she decided to go against Mel himself, for his sake and everyone's, will be blown to the 4 winds. And I still disagree, both hold equal importance in this confrontation, only in different ways.

And imo you and most other Elizabeth supporters are massively underrating the value of healing, you're making it sound as though "restraining" or "weakening" Mael has more value, it doesnt. The Sins and their abilities are already built for handling things like weakening or restraining enemies, healing is an ability exclusive to Elizabeth and its the single most important thing Elizabeth can do right now, its what she should be focusing on, its keeping the Sins, the main characters of this manga, alive, attempting anything else would be plain negligent. The only position you could decisively describe as more valuable than healing is actually landing the finishing blow on Mael, and that job should be reserved for Gowther or a combination between all Sins.

No, I'm not disregarding her ability to heal at all, I'm only seeing how little relevant it would be in this conflict once Diane and King get serious, her healing can't help Gowther anyway, I already said it, and her strongest skills revealed so far have had everything to do with purification and powering down and nothing to do with healing, even without the Graces.
Sariel never considered purification and never considered the fact that Elizabeth's healing does restore stamina, so King became relevant again once she healed him, even though Sariel dismissed even that idea when enumerating the odds at victory against Maelstarossa. Also, how is the captain of the Sins not a Sin, even without an established spirit beast?!
Moreover, haven't you realised that most of the characters involved in this conflict want to save his soul, not only stop him? Sure, they can all work towards giving Gowther the opening to remove the decrees, but does that mean that will kill him? And merely killing him would save him? Cause that's his stupid and crazy method, unacceptable to the heroes.
So, it only makes sense that he does get mostly neutralised by the fight and decree removal and the final blow gets to be Elizabeth's purifying his soul and sending it to the afterlife out of mercy and desire to fulfill her and her friends' wishes, because I'm not seeing him pulling Derrieri's heel-face turn, he's now basically hating both Ellie and Mel and the rest of the world(such a drama queen) and the others love Ellie and Mel and the rest of the world. So, yeah, no more room for him.
There's one more thing, the weirdest thing Nakaba did in this chapter was revealing that the Sky Theater was exactly above Liones, where the Horn of Cernunnos and its "resident" goddess is, so, I'm not gonna dismiss an involvement from her either and my greatest suspicion is that she's Ellie's mom, so there's another possibility and twist that would bring about severe changes to Elizabeth's status. We don't know if the SD has any means of directly interfering in Britannia other than some link to her daughter whose curse she's had a hand in(and we don't know yet why, beyond punishment; I frankly could find other ways of sadistic mere punishment, so, it makes me doubt it was just that, Sariel's prayer for forgiveness also makes me wonder more), but she might still bring forward a huge change for Elizabeth because I really doubt she'd be pleased with how much of an upper hand the demons have just gained in this war.
And no, I don't think possessing Elizabeth can be it, we're past the point were the gods were keeping their kids around as future physical hosts.

 

[Seven777]

We don't know if it isn't, so far the possibility is 50/50 in each way and since some characters, regardless of original race, are absorbing decrees, I don't see why a royal goddess(in HER human body) can't absorb them; long before her true identity and power were awakened, her physical body's blood served very well as replacement for countless goddess lives and power to release 9/10 Commandments. Her body isn't that of a full human, nor a foreign waiting room for a goddess soul till their true body is restored. I'm sure she can even hold them without the repercussions Escanor's enduring from Sunshine. IIRC, Sariel was already proven wrong because he said that a fairy or a giant or a human or Gowther should be able to defeat him, basically implying a solo, which is ridiculous, they are all already fighting as a team, together, so the victory belongs to all involved, when it happens. Also, Sariel's body, not soul, that is very likely either back in the CR or whatever afterlife goddesses souls get once they die, is dead, so, one more mistake won't kill him Oops, too soon.

No, it doesn't, she'd still go for her alternative methods, not burning her opponents to crisps with an OP ark and she'll still mainly focus on Meliodas, as she always did, and I think she'd be adequately powerful for her standing and involvement in the war, you keep forgetting Mael arrived at the party a tad too late and if you're gonna buy the fact that an archangel, no matter how impressive as a warrior he is, can gobble up antagonistic energy and power-up like it's no man's business, it's ridiculous that you can't see Elizabeth would naturally have an affinity with her mother's power, just like Mel or Zel with their father's.

Good heavens, who even wants her to be an actual/standard fighter?! And being powerful=/=being a fighter, nor the the reverse is valid. Her mother looks nothing like a fighter and has nothing about her implying she'd even like joining a battlefield, however, it goes without the shadow of a doubt she has the power to smite whomever she pleases, minus her counterpart. Ellie's abilities and personality are built around those things you mentioned and taking action even against unfortunate odds, her ark against Derrieri happened before ch 200(ch 188), the insinuation that she's fought by Mel's side ever since the AHW was around ch 50, the link with Liz(a standard fighter, ironically) started being established even before that, you're not acknowledging Elizabeth in her entirety and the design of Elizabeth sporting 8 wings, even if for a moment, hasn't been taken back, so, it really doesn't matter whether Nakaba has started technically portraying her as conventionally powerful from day 1 or chapter 200+, he's implied her importance to the main plot since the beginning.
She's just reiterated her main 2 wishes since when?(forever, when it comes to the war) And added the desire to stop/save Mael.I don't see her keeping her promise with only healing her party. Especially since the make-up of her party and King and Diane's upcoming development should render her healing nigh irrelevant, King has both defense and healing forms for Chastiefol, Diane has body strengthening skills and she should soon display her own version of an OP Diamond Form, Ellie's healing doesn't work at all on Gowther.
Plus, she does have a fighting side to her, even if standard fighting would be her last resort. Have you forgotten how she did her part in convincing King to rejoin the Sins back in the CotD?! She was trying to take Chastiefol and use it to fight along Mel & Diane VS Guila. And a slight reminder of the fact that VS stands for VERSUS(a word addressing fighting), or Nakaba himself tells everyone that Elizabeth did fight the Indura(he titled chapter 208 "Elizabeth VERSUS Indura"), but no, readers still look for excuses to leave the players who don't go for bloodshed out of the fighters' tree-house. Nvm that Merlin and Gowther himself aren't big fans of bloodshed either, but they're still allowed in.

He didn't ignore Elizabeth, he decided to kill her along with the rest of the people there, he even killed his long-time friends and allies for wanting to release him of the corruption induced by the decrees, even if he implied he did understand their reasoning to a degree. He wanted to kill her for rejecting him even before he awakened to his Mael identity.
I used the word "preceding" with its other meaning, the chronological one, and that subplot still needs to be resolved, she still needs to personally, fully cut him off, otherwise, all her determination and confidence built in the scene she decided to go against Mel himself, for his sake and everyone's, will be blown to the 4 winds. And I still disagree, both hold equal importance in this confrontation, only in different ways.

No, I'm not disregarding her ability to heal at all, I'm only seeing how little relevant it would be in this conflict once Diane and King get serious, her healing can't help Gowther anyway, I already said it, and her strongest skills revealed so far have had everything to do with purification and powering down and nothing to do with healing, even without the Graces.
Sariel never considered purification and never considered the fact that Elizabeth's healing does restore stamina, so King became relevant again once she healed him, even though Sariel dismissed even that idea when enumerating the odds at victory against Maelstarossa. Also, how is the captain of the Sins not a Sin, even without an established spirit beast?!
Moreover, haven't you realised that most of the characters involved in this conflict want to save his soul, not only stop him? Sure, they can all work towards giving Gowther the opening to remove the decrees, but does that mean that will kill him? And merely killing him would save him? Cause that's his stupid and crazy method, unacceptable to the heroes.
So, it only makes sense that he does get mostly neutralised by the fight and decree removal and the final blow gets to be Elizabeth's purifying his soul and sending it to the afterlife out of mercy and desire to fulfill her and her friends' wishes, because I'm not seeing him pulling Derrieri's heel-face turn, he's now basically hating both Ellie and Mel and the rest of the world(such a drama queen) and the others love Ellie and Mel and the rest of the world. So, yeah, no more room for him.
There's one more thing, the weirdest thing Nakaba did in this chapter was revealing that the Sky Theater was exactly above Liones, where the Horn of Cernunnos and its "resident" goddess is, so, I'm not gonna dismiss an involvement from her either and my greatest suspicion is that she's Ellie's mom, so there's another possibility and twist that would bring about severe changes to Elizabeth's status. We don't know if the SD has any means of directly interfering in Britannia other than some link to her daughter whose curse she's had a hand in(and we don't know yet why, beyond punishment; I frankly could find other ways of sadistic mere punishment, so, it makes me doubt it was just that, Sariel's prayer for forgiveness also makes me wonder more), but she might still bring forward a huge change for Elizabeth because I really doubt she'd be pleased with how much of an upper hand the demons have just gained in this war.
And no, I don't think possessing Elizabeth can be it, we're past the point were the gods were keeping their kids around as future physical hosts.

a) Sariels statement was an obvious foreshadowing of what's to come. There would be no point in him specifying Gowther or fairy or human or giant if that wasn't what it would end up taking, he could've easily just said King or Gowther were their only hope because they were there. Now before Diane showed you might have had a case for Sariel being wrong, but with her appearance it is, as I see it, pretty much a certainty that his words foreshadow how the battle will be won. So again, there is no point in trying to look for an exception in his words just so Elizabeth can become a combatant.

b) - She would have unrivaled power, there is no way Nakaba is giving that kind of power to someone who wont use it. Her whole "damsel in distress" thing would go away too since she'd be virtually invincible with that level of power.
- I agree that Elizabeth out of everyone, except perhaps Escanor, would be the likeliest candidate to wield the Graces given her position as SD's daughter, but we dont even know that absorbing them is possible, or that Elizabeth would know how, and even if it is and she does, it's not happening now, it's far too soon. There are too many threats left that Elizabeth could easily neutralize with that kind of power. if it does happen(it wont) it'll be towards the very end of the manga

c) - No one wants that, which is why I and a lot of other fans don't buy into this whole "Elizabeth is going to start wrecking main villains" thing.
- Elizabeth's mother is portrayed as a cruel warmonger, her being appropriately powerful in combat would surprise no one.
- Merlin and Gowther, unlike Elizabeth, have no problem with murder and violence, they arent pacifists.
- Nakaba had the chance to make Elizabeth into a powerhouse combatant like the Sins, but he didnt, he decided instead to make her a pacifist, even more adverse to violence than her character originally was as a human. Sure there have been a few occasions where Elizabeth has done something combat related, but those incidents never lead her to actually engage in battle. Doesnt mean Elizabeth isnt powerful, or isnt gonna do great things, but she's not a combatant, she's a healer, always has been and right now with the Sins on the front lines there is no room for her to do anything else, keeping them alive via healing is more important than anything else Elizabeth might be capable of contributing to this fight(not a lot given Mael's resistance).

d) - He did, as soon as Gowther came he forgot all about Elizabeth and focused entirely on beating Gowther's ass. Sure he attacked El later on, but he wasn't specifically targeting her, Mael hasnt even acknowledged Elizabeth's presence since Gowther arrived, not once, right now she's nothing more than another meaningless member of the rabble opposing him, from Mael's point of view Elizabeth may as well not even be there.
- As for Elizabeth's subplot with Mael, that will probably be concluded through talking, likely after the battle is done and the commandments are removed. Elizabeth probably wont cut him off either, he'll say he's sorry and she'll likely console him and tell him its not his fault as he fades away.

e) - How little relevance healing has here? Yeah, that right there tells me you are massively underrating healing. Right now the Sins are fighting someone who outclasses them almost as much as Galand did back then, other than Gowther healing is the most valuable resource they have, its what will keep them going through this battle.
- There you go again, talking about what Sariel "considered", you're trying to point out faults in a character's reasoning so you can insert your own, but it doesnt matter what Sariel "considered", its Nakaba who is making him say the things that he said, the only way Sariel could be wrong is if Nakaba was intentionally trying to mislead us, and so far that has not been the case at all, and it doesnt look like its going to be the case either, things are going exactly as he foreshadowed.
- Dunno if removing the decrees would kill him, but thats the goal and would likely be the end of the fight.
- As for killing being unacceptable for heroes, not really, killing him would be fine, Gowther wouldnt be happy but if thats what it takes it has to be done
- The Sins neutralizing Mael and removing the commandments, then leaving him for Elizabeth to deal with is reasonable, i can even see it happening. I dont see why there'd be a need to purify him though if the commandments are gone.
- Dont know what to say about the G.Horn thing, if it is the SD i doubt it'd help Elizabeth.

 

[Undina]

a) Sariels statement was an obvious foreshadowing of what's to come. There would be no point in him specifying Gowther or fairy or human or giant if that wasn't what it would end up taking, he could've easily just said King or Gowther were their only hope because they were there. Now before Diane showed you might have had a case for Sariel being wrong, but with her appearance it is, as I see it, pretty much a certainty that his words foreshadow how the battle will be won. So again, there is no point in trying to look for an exception in his words just so Elizabeth can become a combatant.

Can you please point out which part of Sariel's speech foreshadowed the involvement of

Spoiler

a Hellhound?! You know, since Oslow is currently that, not the human from 3000 years ago, Rou.

b) - She would have unrivaled power, there is no way Nakaba is giving that kind of power to someone who wont use it. Her whole "damsel in distress" thing would go away too since she'd be virtually invincible with that level of power.
- I agree that Elizabeth out of everyone, except perhaps Escanor, would be the likeliest candidate to wield the Graces given her position as SD's daughter, but we dont even know that absorbing them is possible, or that Elizabeth would know how, and even if it is and she does, it's not happening now, it's far too soon. There are too many threats left that Elizabeth could easily neutralize with that kind of power. if it does happen(it wont) it'll be towards the very end of the manga

I already explained that she would use it, but not differently from how she did before, and right now, both Mael and Mel have that level of power, I'm not seeing you complaining about that; one is passive and can't/won't help(in fact, if these 2 got to fight each-other, they'd wreck everything around regardless of possible casualties), the other is the enemy the Sins and Elizabeth are up against. The Sins are so far still in need of help. I don't see The One or 5 C Mel helping them out and it's better if they do get help from someone already on the team.
The series is almost on its last leg, her getting a serious power boost is more sensible now, rather than in the very last battle, many would be disappointed to see that and I'm not in the mood for "asspull" whining from those who hate her. I prefer gradual power-ups.
No, there aren't that many threats she could/would neutralise, it's only 1/4 of mommy's power and her group is back at Liones, it'd still take plenty of team effort to take down Mael,she'd still mind about the victims of his rampage and many other things can still happen to make sure the AT still gets down with the demons in Camelot and everyone gets their separate development, there are still many demons on the way to Camelot and Elizabeth may still have to deal with some interaction with her mommy etc.

c) - No one wants that, which is why I and a lot of other fans don't buy into this whole "Elizabeth is going to start wrecking main villains" thing.
- Elizabeth's mother is portrayed as a cruel warmonger, her being appropriately powerful in combat would surprise no one.
- Merlin and Gowther, unlike Elizabeth, have no problem with murder and violence, they arent pacifists.
- Nakaba had the chance to make Elizabeth into a powerhouse combatant like the Sins, but he didnt, he decided instead to make her a pacifist, even more adverse to violence than her character originally was as a human. Sure there have been a few occasions where Elizabeth has done something combat related, but those incidents never lead her to actually engage in battle. Doesnt mean Elizabeth isnt powerful, or isnt gonna do great things, but she's not a combatant, she's a healer, always has been and right now with the Sins on the front lines there is no room for her to do anything else, keeping them alive via healing is more important than anything else Elizabeth might be capable of contributing to this fight(not a lot given Mael's resistance).

She has never been portrayed as solely a healer and she is involved with all of the main villains, one way or another, she has to have direct involvement in whatever closure there is to the confrontations with them she ends up in, we've seen glimpses of her directly confronting what looked like an AM Meliodas during the AHW, we've seen her up against her mom and Mel's dad, we've seen her against the Indura(properly), there's no denying she ends up doing very different things to healing a third party in all of those instances, so it's ridiculous for someone to expect her to do only that against Maelstarossa.
Let's make things clear, the Elizabeth involved in this confrontation isn't "a healer", she's the princess of the Goddess Clan and of her known and already named techniques we have:
1) "Basic" Ark;
2) Spiteful Saint(or at least a miniature form, used on Maelstarossa);
3)Hikari Are;
4) Tranquilise;
5)Job's Ordeals;
6) Invigorate.
How many of these do heal?! How many are typical Ark blasts like those the AAs tried? And how many of them have been seriously put to test on Maelstarossa only to completely fail?! Answer me this, please. I know Tranquilise works on miasma, but I'm trying to make both a general point about Elizabeth(as she was built for the entire manga and the fact that she could still be open to more skill development ) and the current circumstances.
-Elizabeth's mom hasn't been shown involved in any melee(or in appropriate attire for one) for us to know she simply doesn't just have the OP/raw(or both) magic to get her through that. Mentality wasn't the subject here. Means and the willingness to use them, regardless of end intended, were.
-Please, enumerate how many characters have these 2(Merlin and Gowther) actively killed throughout the series if there were other options. Last time I've checked, normal HKs would arrest criminals and punish them accordingly to crime, not simply hunt them down to kill them. Fighters have codes and rules even in the Taizaiverse and not abiding them it's what makes them into villains.
-Goddess Elizabeth was clearly above most of the Sins power wise and most of them shouldn't have the ability to touch her or do much against her. Even Merlin's hax could be left without an opening. Not to mention that most should be vulnerable to whatever form of brainwashing she possesses, non-demonic beings are far more open and vulnerable to her charisma.
That's what some of you guys don't get or end up contradicting yourselves over, she'd employ strong skills to neutralise opponents she wants saved, but I'm pretty sure she'd still take them on to put them out of their misery if there was no way out(like Mael's case). Or to knock them out which we know wouldn't work on changing the opponent's philosophy and the latter would still get themselves dead upon waking, somehow.
That doesn't mean that with a power-up she'd flit all around Britannia and stop everyone, Nakaba wrote this story that even The One is limited and couldn't be teleported around Britannia to lay waste to all of the Commandments like that, and he's one of the top actual warriors, nor did he have Merlin hax everyone out of her way.
My point is that even with a Graces/release from curse power-up, Elizabeth would still be quite a way from soloing as many enemies as you think, or even from soloing Mael(exactly because of how her added TnJ can't work on this thing)

d) - He did, as soon as Gowther came he forgot all about Elizabeth and focused entirely on beating Gowther's ass. Sure he attacked El later on, but he wasn't specifically targeting her, Mael hasnt even acknowledged Elizabeth's presence since Gowther arrived, not once, right now she's nothing more than another meaningless member of the rabble opposing him, from Mael's point of view Elizabeth may as well not even be there.
- As for Elizabeth's subplot with Mael, that will probably be concluded through talking, likely after the battle is done and the commandments are removed. Elizabeth probably wont cut him off either, he'll say he's sorry and she'll likely console him and tell him its not his fault as he fades away.

Potayto, potahto, Elizabeth was unconscious and not trying to interact at all with him, Gowther started their interaction anyway. The point is, he wants and is trying to kill everyone, he was only directly acknowledging those who actively tried to get through to him somehow, then he turned into a raging zombie monster. That doesn't mean that forced situation doesn't have to be openly sorted out even on Elizabeth's side, since Nakaba himself' s had her claim she would, just like Gowther stated about his share in the problem.

e) - How little relevance healing has here? Yeah, that right there tells me you are massively underrating healing. Right now the Sins are fighting someone who outclasses them almost as much as Galand did back then, other than Gowther healing is the most valuable resource they have, its what will keep them going through this battle.
- There you go again, talking about what Sariel "considered", you're trying to point out faults in a character's reasoning so you can insert your own, but it doesnt matter what Sariel "considered", its Nakaba who is making him say the things that he said, the only way Sariel could be wrong is if Nakaba was intentionally trying to mislead us, and so far that has not been the case at all, and it doesnt look like its going to be the case either, things are going exactly as he foreshadowed.
- Dunno if removing the decrees would kill him, but thats the goal and would likely be the end of the fight.
- As for killing being unacceptable for heroes, not really, killing him would be fine, Gowther wouldnt be happy but if thats what it takes it has to be done
- The Sins neutralizing Mael and removing the commandments, then leaving him for Elizabeth to deal with is reasonable, i can even see it happening. I dont see why there'd be a need to purify him though if the commandments are gone.
- Dont know what to say about the G.Horn thing, if it is the SD i doubt it'd help Elizabeth.

1)The way you answered tells me you haven't read my argument on why it would be less relevant than other skills in this particular circumstance;
2)There you go, accusing me of that, while trying to insert your reasoning of Elizabeth being more "irrelevant" in this confrontation than Gowther just because Maelstarossa hasn't verbally acknowledged Elizabeth after his memories were fully awakened, though he did seem appalled of attacking her before that(anyway, I don't care overly much about that, it doesn't change the fact that this whole battle started from Mael's obsessive interest in Elizabeth); as for the misleading part, how much of a human is

Spoiler

Oslow right now, according to you

, even though their interference hasn't ended/helped end the battle either?!
No, I particularly said that killing him without accomplishing what Gowther, Elizabeth, Sar, Tar and Derrieri claimed they wanted should actually be unacceptable to them.
3)I'm pretty sure that Mael's resentment would linger(and still have his soul corrupted) after the decree removal(just like it was the case with the souls in Corrand after Mera's control over them was broken);
4) I don't see how the SD being inside the HoC wouldn't help Elizabeth. Sariel's other statement implied, much like older circumstances, that Elizabeth is still important to the SD and Ludo stated that mommy can undo the curse just as well.

 

[Gut's is the man]

She just made the conviction. So we will need to wait and see what happens. Meliodas made his conviction, and it took a couple of chapters before we found out how he was going to follow through with it.

I mean the part where everyone is on the floor like lambs to the slaughter, injured and Elizabeth just awakens her power over Hawks death, makes a speech and tells Hendrickson she won't let anyone else get hurt, followed by a collision of light and darkness, to which Elizabeth succeeded in overpowering and repelling dark nebula which would've killed everybody if it wasn't for her, healing everyone around and damaging Hendrickson. Sure, the sins finished off Hendrickson, But without Elizabeth's intervention everyone would have died and vice versa (Elizabeth at the time couldn't defeat him by herself etc)

Indura? Arguable if it's a bigger challenge than Mael, probably not.

But Elizabeth stood right in front of the Gods, and not in one panel did i see an expression of "oh shit Meliodas were doomed, let's run" (like she did against Mael). Even if the Gods were holding back, I'd rather face Mael than those two.

So Elizabeth facing a bigger challenge and then failing to pass a smaller one, really makes no sense for me.

Important to note that we saw Elizabeth say that at the beginning of thre fight and we saw her and Mel's curbstomp by their parents towards the end. Not really a good comparison.

 

[Seven777]

Can you please point out which part of Sariel's speech foreshadowed the involvement of

Spoiler

a Hellhound?! You know, since Oslow is currently that, not the human from 3000 years ago, Rou.

I already explained that she would use it, but not differently from how she did before, and right now, both Mael and Mel have that level of power, I'm not seeing you complaining about that; one is passive and can't/won't help(in fact, if these 2 got to fight each-other, they'd wreck everything around regardless of possible casualties), the other is the enemy the Sins and Elizabeth are up against. The Sins are so far still in need of help. I don't see The One or 5 C Mel helping them out and it's better if they do get help from someone already on the team.
The series is almost on its last leg, her getting a serious power boost is more sensible now, rather than in the very last battle, many would be disappointed to see that and I'm not in the mood for "asspull" whining from those who hate her. I prefer gradual power-ups.
No, there aren't that many threats she could/would neutralise, it's only 1/4 of mommy's power and her group is back at Liones, it'd still take plenty of team effort to take down Mael,she'd still mind about the victims of his rampage and many other things can still happen to make sure the AT still gets down with the demons in Camelot and everyone gets their separate development, there are still many demons on the way to Camelot and Elizabeth may still have to deal with some interaction with her mommy etc.

She has never been portrayed as solely a healer and she is involved with all of the main villains, one way or another, she has to have direct involvement in whatever closure there is to the confrontations with them she ends up in, we've seen glimpses of her directly confronting what looked like an AM Meliodas during the AHW, we've seen her up against her mom and Mel's dad, we've seen her against the Indura(properly), there's no denying she ends up doing very different things to healing a third party in all of those instances, so it's ridiculous for someone to expect her to do only that against Maelstarossa.
Let's make things clear, the Elizabeth involved in this confrontation isn't "a healer", she's the princess of the Goddess Clan and of her known and already named techniques we have:
1) "Basic" Ark;
2) Spiteful Saint(or at least a miniature form, used on Maelstarossa);
3)Hikari Are;
4) Tranquilise;
5)Job's Ordeals;
6) Invigorate.
How many of these do heal?! How many are typical Ark blasts like those the AAs tried? And how many of them have been seriously put to test on Maelstarossa only to completely fail?! Answer me this, please. I know Tranquilise works on miasma, but I'm trying to make both a general point about Elizabeth(as she was built for the entire manga and the fact that she could still be open to more skill development ) and the current circumstances.
-Elizabeth's mom hasn't been shown involved in any melee(or in appropriate attire for one) for us to know she simply doesn't just have the OP/raw(or both) magic to get her through that. Mentality wasn't the subject here. Means and the willingness to use them, regardless of end intended, were.
-Please, enumerate how many characters have these 2(Merlin and Gowther) actively killed throughout the series if there were other options. Last time I've checked, normal HKs would arrest criminals and punish them accordingly to crime, not simply hunt them down to kill them. Fighters have codes and rules even in the Taizaiverse and not abiding them it's what makes them into villains.
-Goddess Elizabeth was clearly above most of the Sins power wise and most of them shouldn't have the ability to touch her or do much against her. Even Merlin's hax could be left without an opening. Not to mention that most should be vulnerable to whatever form of brainwashing she possesses, non-demonic beings are far more open and vulnerable to her charisma.
That's what some of you guys don't get or end up contradicting yourselves over, she'd employ strong skills to neutralise opponents she wants saved, but I'm pretty sure she'd still take them on to put them out of their misery if there was no way out(like Mael's case). Or to knock them out which we know wouldn't work on changing the opponent's philosophy and the latter would still get themselves dead upon waking, somehow.
That doesn't mean that with a power-up she'd flit all around Britannia and stop everyone, Nakaba wrote this story that even The One is limited and couldn't be teleported around Britannia to lay waste to all of the Commandments like that, and he's one of the top actual warriors, nor did he have Merlin hax everyone out of her way.
My point is that even with a Graces/release from curse power-up, Elizabeth would still be quite a way from soloing as many enemies as you think, or even from soloing Mael(exactly because of how her added TnJ can't work on this thing)

Potayto, potahto, Elizabeth was unconscious and not trying to interact at all with him, Gowther started their interaction anyway. The point is, he wants and is trying to kill everyone, he was only directly acknowledging those who actively tried to get through to him somehow, then he turned into a raging zombie monster. That doesn't mean that forced situation doesn't have to be openly sorted out even on Elizabeth's side, since Nakaba himself' s had her claim she would, just like Gowther stated about his share in the problem.

1)The way you answered tells me you haven't read my argument on why it would be less relevant than other skills in this particular circumstance;
2)There you go, accusing me of that, while trying to insert your reasoning of Elizabeth being more "irrelevant" in this confrontation than Gowther just because Maelstarossa hasn't verbally acknowledged Elizabeth after his memories were fully awakened, though he did seem appalled of attacking her before that(anyway, I don't care overly much about that, it doesn't change the fact that this whole battle started from Mael's obsessive interest in Elizabeth); as for the misleading part, how much of a human is

Spoiler

Oslow right now, according to you

, even though their interference hasn't ended/helped end the battle either?!
No, I particularly said that killing him without accomplishing what Gowther, Elizabeth, Sar, Tar and Derrieri claimed they wanted should actually be unacceptable to them.
3)I'm pretty sure that Mael's resentment would linger(and still have his soul corrupted) after the decree removal(just like it was the case with the souls in Corrand after Mera's control over them was broken);
4) I don't see how the SD being inside the HoC wouldn't help Elizabeth. Sariel's other statement implied, much like older circumstances, that Elizabeth is still important to the SD and Ludo stated that mommy can undo the curse just as well.

-He didnt foreshadow Oslo
-Why would i complain about Mael and Mel having that kind of power? They're villains, having villains outclass the good guys is standard for Nakaba.
-Sure, the Sins and Elizabeth will need help, and that help will probably come in the form of Ban, or possibly(though less likely) Escanor.
-You could list a thousand different versions of ark and it wouldnt make a difference, Elizabeth is still portrayed a certain way, and not as a fighter. You ask me why? Its simple, because Nakaba never lets her enter a fight. Could she uses the graces to immobilize Mael? Sure, i could see it, fits with her non-combative character, but it'd leave her with too much power afterwards, unless she somehow loses them.
-She'd be invincible, she could literally neutralize the entire demon army herself, the masters, Zeldris, all nothing to her
-When has SD ever engaged in melee? And even if she had, so what? I didnt say SD wasnt good at melee
-I cant remember Gowther and Merlin killing anyone, as for them having a code, what code? Is it Elizabeth's pacifist code?
-G.Elizabeth may have had a high PL, but she was still incredibly vulnerable, her remaining so after the graces would make no sense. Her status as a damsel in distress has been a staple for her character for a long time, she'd lose that if she became invincible via graces.
-The difference is that The One lasts a minute, Escanor's fleeting strength is part of what makes him such a great character, Grace El wouldnt have that.
-Exactly, which is why Gowther is so much more important to him right now and why he needs to be the main combatant.
-Like i said, Elizabeth will have her moment with Mael, but it will imo be a dialogue
1) I read it, and i told you they're facing someone who outclasses them almost as much as Galand, good defense on the Sins part isnt going to cut it.
2) Difference is im not trying to say that a character was wrong.
3) I'm not sure how Elizabeth is supposed to purify Mael's resentment towards Gowther, other than through talking that is.
4) Hasnt helped her in literally any other situation, SD seems more likely to help Mael lol

 

[Gut's is the man]

-He didnt foreshadow Oslo
-Why would i complain about Mael and Mel having that kind of power? They're villains, having villains outclass the good guys is standard for Nakaba.
-Sure, the Sins and Elizabeth will need help, and that help will probably come in the form of Ban, or possibly(though less likely) Escanor.
-You could list a thousand different versions of ark and it wouldnt make a difference, Elizabeth is still portrayed a certain way, and not as a fighter. You ask me why? Its simple, because Nakaba never lets her enter a fight. Could she uses the graces to immobilize Mael? Sure, i could see it, fits with her non-combative character, but it'd leave her with too much power afterwards, unless she somehow loses them.
-She'd be invincible, she could literally neutralize the entire demon army herself, the masters, Zeldris, all nothing to her
-When has SD ever engaged in melee? And even if she had, so what? I didnt say SD wasnt good at melee
-I cant remember Gowther and Merlin killing anyone, as for them having a code, what code? Is it Elizabeth's pacifist code?
-G.Elizabeth may have had a high PL, but she was still incredibly vulnerable, her remaining so after the graces would make no sense. Her status as a damsel in distress has been a staple for her character for a long time, she'd lose that if she became invincible via graces.
-The difference is that The One lasts a minute, Escanor's fleeting strength is part of what makes him such a great character, Grace El wouldnt have that.
-Exactly, which is why Gowther is so much more important to him right now and why he needs to be the main combatant.
-Like i said, Elizabeth will have her moment with Mael, but it will imo be a dialogue
1) I read it, and i told you they're facing someone who outclasses them almost as much as Galand, good defense on the Sins part isnt going to cut it.
2) Difference is im not trying to say that a character was wrong.
3) I'm not sure how Elizabeth is supposed to purify Mael's resentment towards Gowther, other than through talking that is.
4) Hasnt helped her in literally any other situation, SD seems more likely to help Mael lol

- To be fair Oslo isn't something that really needs to be forshadowed.

- fair point.

- they're probably gonna lose and use oslo to retreat.

-She's not getting the graces.

- Not to five commandments mel, heck given the power difference between her and mael she likely couldn't even beat four commandments mael

.- when have we seen the SD do squat in the current timeline?

- She's a glass cannon.

-I can't wait for that. (no sarcasm i've been waiting for liz and mael heart to heart since the reveal.)

 

[Seven777]

- To be fair Oslo isn't something that really needs to be forshadowed.

- fair point.

- they're probably gonna lose and use oslo to retreat.

-She's not getting the graces.

- Not to five commandments mel, heck given the power difference between her and mael she likely couldn't even beat four commandments mael

.- when have we seen the SD do squat in the current timeline?

- She's a glass cannon.

-I can't wait for that. (no sarcasm i've been waiting for liz and mael heart to heart since the reveal.)

-I know, but he asked and he'd probably get on my case if i didnt answer.

-I doubt it, unless they're retreating to Escanor and Mael follows, then Escanor could be the missing human. I'm still certain Gowther is gonna be Mael's downfall one way or another though, unless his upgrade just ends up being a suicide bomb.

-Of course not, even if graces can be absorbed, there is no way Elizabeth would know how, and even if she did know how, there is no way she could absorb them fast enough to be useful in this fight, and even if she could absorb them that fast, that would mean she'd be pulling a Mael and would go insane, only worse since Mael has only aborbed 20% of DK's power as opposed to the 25% of SD's power Elizabeth would be absorbing, and even if she somehow asspulled her way to not losing her mind, absorbing the graces would make her a massive hypocrite for telling Meliodas not to, it would also make committing her entire country to this war to stop Meliodas from absorbing the commandments utterly pointless because she'd be doing the exact same thing. Nakaba hasnt exactly written Elizabeth as a good person since her reveal as a goddess, but i doubt he'd go that far.

-True, but to anyone other than Meliodas she'd be unstoppable, might as well just send the army home, Elizabeth could clean up the trash without costing a single life. Mael would presumably be dead by this point in this incredibly unlikely imaginary scenario.

-Me too, Mael's had it rough, he at least deserves to have Elizabeth send him off in peace. I anticipate a good dialogue to happen between them as Mael starts to fade away like Sariel did.