Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Axiomus]

That is what I have been saying, the hotter his flames became the more he could distort spacetime. The reason for the country level fusion is by the calculation that can determine the energy of radiation from his attacks that uses the nuclear fusion process. And the calculation gives the energy that makes it Country-Large Country level. Having the ability to produce infinite energy does not make one universal level, just the power to make their magic reserves never run dry. So he scales to whatever that power is scalable to in the FT verse. In this case it is more NLF for him being universal level, but that does not take away what he did which would allow him the win, that is why he would only scale to where ever Zeref scales to. Not a literal shield but a line of defense that makes Natsu’s attacks unable to effect him, regardless, Zeref’s body is not the issue, it is his inability to get passed the time magic, until Natsu used Savage flames. Absorption does not equate to DC, otherwise Dragon Knight would be Planet Level from it’s ability to absorb the magic of the entire planet of Edolas. Flying into them does not really mean that they used magic for all of them. Feats are one thing, but calculating them is another which is what makes them all the more special and important.

Having infinite energy is actually above universal. The universe has a finite amount of energy and matter. Zeref has more magic power than there is matter and energy in the our observable universe. It's not just the power to make their magic reserves never run dry. That logically doesn't make sense. You cannot divide infinity and put it into chunks. Even if I accept that Zeref cannot use Fairy Heart's power all at once, Natsu would have had to burn out the entirety of Fairy Heart's power in order to beat Zeref. If even a fraction of Fairy Heart's power (and a fraction of infinity is still infinity) was left, Zeref would have been able to immediately refill his power reserves and then reverse time to undo all the injuries Natsu dealt. It is impossible for Natsu to beat Zeref without burning away the literal infinite power of Fairy Heart.

So again, if you choose to hype Wall as country level then you should also hype Natsu as universal. Actually, you should be accepting Natsu as being universal merely on the basis that he can burn time itself, something that requires cosmic amounts of energy to achieve in real life. 1.4 x 10^32 K, or Planck's temperature. I'd do a calculation, but converting this amount of heat to a unit of force is just going to give a nonsensically huge value. This temperature has only been achieved once in the history of the universe, in the immediate moments of the big bang when all matter was highly condensed. That's how hot it has to be to burn time. It may sound silly to you for me to imply that Natsu is universal because of these numbers, and I'm telling you it sounds equally silly to imply that Wall can blow up a country because the name of his machines sounds similar to a nuclear fusion device. I'll bet you anything that Hiro Mashima is not even considering physics when he's drawing the manga.

The idea that time magic makes Natsu's magic unable to effect Zeref is simply not true. I don't know how many different ways I can say it. Natsu is 100% perfectly capable of using his magic to hurt Zeref without using the flames of savage emotions to burn time. Natsu doesn't even need an uber powerful attack to do this. He gave Zeref a bloody lip with a pretty regular attack. What time magic actually does is allow Zeref to reverse time and undo all the damage that Natsu did, like it never even happened in the first place.

Spoiler: Natsu hurting Zeref without burning time

Spoiler: Zeref reversing time to undo the damage done by Dragon Force

The dragons did more than fly into the faces to destroy them. They also used magic. You can see it in their attacks. Weisslogia was using his light magic to cover his body. Skiadrum was dropping attacks all over the ground. Not that it matters, because even a lazy physical attack from Irene is stronger than the combined attacks of END's power and Gray. A full body tackle from one of these dragons would wreck just about any Spriggan, except for maybe Irene in her dragon form.

Spoiler: Dragons destroying faces

 

[WoWfan]

No, despite having the ability to generate limiteless energy does not make it universal, just never runs dry, Natsu just managed to burn it away after reaching a temperature to bypass his time magic. Having infinite magic does not equate to DC. Just the spells performed, that is why Juubi does not make him planet level despite having chakra to make it look like a small planet. Hey, authors in general do not take physics to heart yet we consider them realistic enough to scale at least, and at Kugelblitz they say it creates a black hole, guess what, Bluenots got that covered so no worries there. It does not matter if he can or can’t hurt him without Savage Flames, he had no savage flames to stop him from reversing time meaning that any attack was not applicable to negating time magic until actually pulled it off, he has to have it in order to win. That is why his attacks had no way of putting him down. You have to prove that Natsu can put Zeref down without Savage flames in order for your argument to work. That does not make the dragons any more impressive than what we have seen before and after that feat

 

[Axiomus]

No, despite having the ability to generate limiteless energy does not make it universal, just never runs dry, . Having infinite magic does not equate to DC. Just the spells performed, that is why Juubi does not make him planet level despite having chakra to make it look like a small planet. Hey, authors in general do not take physics to heart yet we consider them realistic enough to scale at least, and at Kugelblitz they say it creates a black hole, guess what, Bluenots got that covered so no worries there. It does not matter if he can or can’t hurt him without Savage Flames, he had no savage flames to stop him from reversing time meaning that any attack was not applicable to negating time magic until actually pulled it off, he has to have it in order to win. That is why his attacks had no way of putting him down. You have to prove that Natsu can put Zeref down without Savage flames in order for your argument to work. That does not make the dragons any more impressive than what we have seen before and after that feat

Even if Zeref can't use all of that infinite power in at once with any given spell, Natsu would have had to burn away all of Fairy Heart's power to stop Zeref from replenishing his magical reserves and reversing time again. The fact that Zeref wasn't able to replenish his magic meant that Natsu burned away all of Fairy Heart's infinite power, thereby making him universal by real life science standards. Bluenote is an excellent example why physic calculations shouldn't be taken seriously. The Schwartzchild radius of the earth is 8.7mm. That means if we were to compress the earth into a black hole, it would be the size of a marble.Bluenote's black hole is the size of a baseball. If we were to calc the mass of that black hole, it would be more massive than the earth.

Spoiler: Just for fun, I'm going to calc the mass of Bluenote's black hole if we used real life physic standards

Not going to bother with pixel measurements. I'm just going to estimate that the radius of Bluenote's black hole is around 2.5cm, about half the size of your palm. This is purposefully lowballed so that the actual mass of Bluenote's black hole will be smaller. The numbers we are working with are absurdly ridiculous that I can afford the lowball. You can play with the values on this calculator here:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/schwarzschild-radius

R = 2G/c^2 × M

M = c^2/2G × R

M = (3⋅10^8m/s) / 2(6.67408 × 10^-11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2) × 0.025m

M = 1.68 x 10^25 kg

About 2.8 Earths. Bluenote is multi-planetary. Lowballed.

Natsu doesn't need savage flames to beat Zeref himself. He needs savage flames to overpower Fairy Heart. If Zeref didn't have Fairy Heart, Dragon Force would have been more than enough to beat Zeref. Without Fairy Heart, Natsu doesn't have to worry about time magic. All he needs to do is injure Zeref's body to the point where Zeref cannot fight back. Dragon Force was capable of letting Natsu vaporize Zeref's body. If Natsu was only facing base Zeref, this is more than enough. Natsu might not be able to kill Zeref like this, because we know Zeref can survive extreme stuff like decapitation. But it would take longer for Zeref to recover when his body is scattered into pieces compared to when he's hurt so badly that he can't move.

The parent dragons were already more impressive than the Spriggans by feats. Again, they wiped out a continental level super-weapon. A feat that no human mage in the series can realistically be expected to pull off. I was just clarifying the fact that the dragons were using magic when they were destroying the faces. The dragons would have been drained by the faces like anything else, but they had so much power that they could still pull off the feat. This meant that the dragons had more power than pretty much every mage that was drained in Ishgal.

 

[WoWfan]

Burning away FH is not the same as burning infinite energy just a source of endless magic power. Thus not making him universal, but scaling to what ever is second to god tier in the FH. Whether or not not being used like that does not mean it is anything less than a black hole created, even in other mangas and comics where black holes are created it has been accepted as black holes despite their lack of DC as long as they follow how a black hole is described or operated as, sucking up light, infinite gravity well, etc.. Yes he does need savage flames or else his attacks will never put him down, he has to find a way pass his time magic. No, it would not, if what you say is somewhat true then Dragon force would not have been enough to kill him as his immortality would kick in. Time Magic just makes it more convenient. No, they are not, all they shown is destroying giant faces with no DC/Dura feats other than absorbing magic, and flying at massively hypersonic speed, while Spriggans are country-large country, scaling to Wall and scales to reacting to lightning speed to relativistic attack speeds with higher members.

 

[Axiomus]

Burning away FH is not the same as burning infinite energy just a source of endless magic power. Thus not making him universal, but scaling to what ever is second to god tier in the FH. Whether or not not being used like that does not mean it is anything less than a black hole created, even in other mangas and comics where black holes are created it has been accepted as black holes despite their lack of DC as long as they follow how a black hole is described or operated as, sucking up light, infinite gravity well, etc.. Yes he does need savage flames or else his attacks will never put him down, he has to find a way pass his time magic. No, it would not, if what you say is somewhat true then Dragon force would not have been enough to kill him as his immortality would kick in. Time Magic just makes it more convenient. No, they are not, all they shown is destroying giant faces with no DC/Dura feats other than absorbing magic, and flying at massively hypersonic speed, while Spriggans are country-large country, scaling to Wall and scales to reacting to lightning speed to relativistic attack speeds with higher members.

Trying to argue that there's a difference between infinite and limitless is silly. The dictionary definition of the word infinite is literally "limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate". Use whatever words you want, the argument does not change. The amount of magic power Zeref has is infinite/limitless/endless. The amount of matter and energy in the observable universe is finite/limited/numerable. Zeref has more magic power than there is matter and energy in our real life observable universe. Even if Zeref cannot use all of Fairy Heart's power at once, Natsu would have had to burn through all of it to beat Zeref.

Spoiler: Fairy Heart being referred to as an infinite power supply

Bluenote's black hole obviously doesn't behave like a real life black hole. A black hole the size of Bluenote's would throw the earth out of orbit and tear the planet apart. Hiro Mashima isn't a science major or physicists. You cannot expect your calculations to be accurate predictors of what the characters can do. So just because Wall can generate some type of nuclear fusion, it doesn't mean he can blow up countries. Wall was taken down by Laxus, who clearly also isn't blowing up countries with his attacks. Calculations that don't reflect what happens in the manga is meaningless. Something is seriously wrong when we're claiming that Fairy Tail is filled with a cast of characters that are large-country busters moving at relativistic speeds. What we really see is mostly street to city block level attacks, and like the occasional mountain level attacks from the stronger characters.

Zeref can't reverse time without Fairy Heart. Without Fairy Heart, Dragon Force would be more than enough to defeat Zeref. The FDK Demolition Fist that Natsu used in DF was able to vaporize Zeref's body. This might not have killed Zeref, but it would render him unable to continue fighting for a long time. Look at how much trouble Zeref was having moving after Natsu beat him. Having your body blown up is way worse than being injured to the point where you couldn't move. Zeref would take longer to recover.

Face was a continental weapon system that has the power to drain the magic power of every mage in Ishgar. It drained the power of all the human mages pretty much instantly. The dragons are not immune to this drain, as they use magic too. The dragons still had enough magic power to destroy all of these faces. The fact that the faces were scattered across the continent, and that there were 3000 of them makes this a monumental task. A task that no human mage can realistically complete. Unless you want to point towards a panel where someone uses an attack that can wipe out 3000 skyscraper sized targets across an entire continent. It should be noted that destroying face was something that Makarov considered needing to use Fairy Heart against, so that should tell you how much of a feat it was.

 

[WoWfan]

But that is the difference, Zeref has a finite space via his physical form. And that is where FH in it’s entirety resides. His magic container is finite but his supply is limiteless. That is not how it works at all. That does not make any difference as long as they have a form of an aspect that makes it a black hole, the DC does not depend on that though as it can be defined by comparable power stat to other characters in the verse. So he would be around town-city level when facing Gildarts. Again, size is not what matters, what their quality is, and Wall’s nuclear fusion energy level makes sense. You still have not answered why Trunk’s strongest attack is only mountain level. Zeref would be unable to fight for what would likely be minutes in this case. The point is that Natsu cannot kill Zeref by any means without either Igneel’s power of the “dying” or END because of their special properties and abilities. There is nothing conventional about Face, it just absorbs magic. Unless you can prove that Dragons can move a relativistic speeds like Irene’s meteor can. Spriggans have no problem dodging or even tanking their attacks, the only thing saving the dragons are their magic immunity scales

 

[Axiomus]

But that is the difference, Zeref has a finite space via his physical form. And that is where FH in it’s entirety resides. His magic container is finite but his supply is limiteless. That is not how it works at all. That does not make any difference as long as they have a form of an aspect that makes it a black hole, the DC does not depend on that though as it can be defined by comparable power stat to other characters in the verse. So he would be around town-city level when facing Gildarts. Again, size is not what matters, what their quality is, and Wall’s nuclear fusion energy level makes sense. You still have not answered why Trunk’s strongest attack is only mountain level. Zeref would be unable to fight for what would likely be minutes in this case. The point is that Natsu cannot kill Zeref by any means without either Igneel’s power of the “dying” or END because of their special properties and abilities. There is nothing conventional about Face, it just absorbs magic. Unless you can prove that Dragons can move a relativistic speeds like Irene’s meteor can. Spriggans have no problem dodging or even tanking their attacks, the only thing saving the dragons are their magic immunity scales

First of all, Zeref's body having finite space doesn't change the fact that Fairy Heart is infinite power. Secondly, like I've said multiple times now, even if Zeref can't use all of Fairy Heart's power at once, Natsu must burn through all of Fairy Heart's power to beat Zeref. If even a fraction of Fairy Heart's power is left, it will regenerate Zeref's magic reserves. Once his reserves are regenerated, he can just turn back time again.

Size matters. A black hole's size is directly proportional to its mass. A black hole with the size of Bluenote's would have the mass of multiple earths. It would affect the earth's orbit and start tearing the planet apart. The quality of a black hole is more extreme than that of nuclear fusion. Nuclear fusion is when atoms fuse under pressure to create heavier elements. A step above that is neutron degeneracy, when electrons and protons fuse to become neutron. A black hole is a step above that. Bluenote has as much as scientific claim to being multi-planetary as Wall does of being country. A silly claim, don't get me wrong, but one that is equally valid as appealing to Wall having nuclear fusion.

Trunks is not part of FT or any of Hiro Mashima's works. He's not relevant.

Natsu doesn't have to kill Zeref to beat him in a fight. Igneel's power could kill Zeref. END can't beat Zeref in a fight, let alone kill him.

The faces were emitting a large amount of magical power. That was what helped Wendy obtain dragon force. Yes, they drain magic. Which is why the dragons are mightily impressive. They had so much magic that they could outlast every human in Ishgal, and actually pull off the feat of destroying the faces. Irene's meteors weren't moving at relativistic speeds. At least, not once it entered the atmosphere. Erza and Irene were able to hold an entire conversation. The sound of their voices traveled to each other's ears before the meteor impacted the ground. It should be fairly obvious that Irene herself cannot hurl through space like her meteors. Also Irene is a dragon, so even if she could....you would just be helping me prove how OP dragons are. Irene is team dragon. She helps my case.

 

[WoWfan]

That does make him have a finite container for a magical power that never runs dry though, and because he has a finite space, so to does FH has a finite amount it can actually emit while still producing limitless amount, that does not work like that as all of FH was effected by Natsu’s first attack and still rewind time. Not in this case as black holes can still be considered black holes as long as they have the attributes to be qualified as black holes, regardless of what size they are, we can disregard that over what actually makes a black hole. Just like how with Wall, Father can make a miniature sun and still use radiation energy calc to find its energy as island level. Trunks is relavent as it is to prove to you that size does not matter and you should get over it. Igneel’s power could kill Zeref because by Zeref’s claim that it is the power of someone that died, END can kill Seref because it surpasses god powers, and Wendy after Face is only city level at least, does not make Face have any DC equivalence like that. Erza and Irene’s conversation is meaningless as it took several moments for the Meteor to reach earth from space at such a distance, for all we know they had their conversation while the meteor was traveling, I only prove how op Spriggans are compared to dragons because Irene is human

 

[Axiomus]

That does make him have a finite container for a magical power that never runs dry though, and because he has a finite space, so to does FH has a finite amount it can actually emit while still producing limitless amount

Zeref's body occupying a finite space does not change the fact that Fairy Heart is an infinite source of magical power. If you are implying Fairy Heart is limited by Zeref's physical body, well Mavis herself said it best:

Spoiler: Fairy Heart has no limits

that does not work like that as all of FH was effected by Natsu’s first attack and still rewind time.

This is simply false. The only time Zeref rewinded time was after Natsu used an FDK Demolition Fist in Dragon Force. This attack vaporized Zeref's body, but did not affect Fairy Heart in any way whatsoever. Zeref stated specifically that it was Fairy Heart's power that allows him to control time. If Natsu had destroyed Fairy Heart along with Zeref's body, Zeref wouldn't have been able to use its power to rewind time. It would be ridiculously easy for Zeref to ask one of his followers to do it.

Not in this case as black holes can still be considered black holes as long as they have the attributes to be qualified as black holes, regardless of what size they are, we can disregard that over what actually makes a black hole. Just like how with Wall, Father can make a miniature sun and still use radiation energy calc to find its energy as island level. Trunks is relevant as it is to prove to you that size does not matter and you should get over it.

One of the attributes of black holes is that its mass is determined by its size. This is hard science. You can't cherry pick which scientific principles you want to follow. Wall did not make a miniature sun, and Father is irrelevant to this debate like Trunks is. Size still matters, and you should get over the fact that Wall will never have a country-sized attack. The greatest irony in all of this is that your own calc for Wall relies on the size of the beam as a measurement. Or did you not notice that Father's sun is only mountain level because it's smaller?

Igneel’s power could kill Zeref because by Zeref’s claim that it is the power of someone that died

Igneel's power could kill Zeref because it was powerful enough to do so. Being the power of the dead has absolutely nothing to do with it. Zeref even said that Natsu's ability to kill him was dependent on how much strength he had left.

Spoiler: Natsu's ability to kill Zeref is dependent on how much strength he has

Again, Zeref wanted Igneel to train Natsu without ever considering the possibility that Natsu would one day obtain the power of a dead person. That was the original plan. Obviously Zeref wanted Natsu to become as strong as Igneel. If it was simply a matter of finding someone who has power that belong to a person that has died, literally anybody could kill Zeref. Literally anyone can just kill someone and take their power, like what Bluenote planned to do with Cana's Fairy Glitter.

END can kill Seref because it surpasses god powers.

Dimaria was talking about her own powers as Chronos when she was saying the power of a god. Lots of people are stronger than Dimaria. It doesn't mean they can beat Zeref in a fight. Zeref is stronger than Dimaria, even without Fairy Heart. END wasn't even capable of beating Gray in a fight, or injuring Erza with his most enraged attack. He's not going to be able to prevent Zeref from beating him up, let alone find the opportunity to hurt Zeref.

and Wendy after Face is only city level at least, does not make Face have any DC equivalence like that.
.

Wendy is not city level. Face was a weapon capable of draining all magic on a continent. Even with this drain, the dragons still had enough power use magic to destroy all 3000 faces.

Erza and Irene’s conversation is meaningless as it took several moments for the Meteor to reach earth from space at such a distance, for all we know they had their conversation while the meteor was traveling

No. Erza and Irene had their conversation after the meteor entered the atmosphere. You literally see Erza and the meteor in the same frame as they are talking to each other.

I only prove how op Spriggans are compared to dragons because Irene is human

Irene was a dragon when she cast the meteor. She could only summon the meteor because of the power boost that being a dragon provides here. Dragon slayers use the power of a dragon, and Irene is a dragon slayer.

 

[WoWfan]

Zeref does have limits though, as FH only makes his supply limitless. You are wrong and you know it as FH and Zeref where one and the same, FH could not be any more effect than Zeref was effected by Natsu's attack, that is why he can reverse time no matter what happens, Natsu had to be in Savage flame mode to bypass time magic. We do not always use that though, just being an infinite gravity well or absorbing light is enough, not all of them has to be present at once. Those characters are entirely relevant and you are ignoring them entirely just like you are ignoring facts from the manga itself. No Igneel’s power is only because it was special in this case as it was the power of the dying, besides it was zeref’s Theory, which could possibly not work, by your logic Igneel’s power would not work if it is a matter of power level, however, Zeref made Igneel’s power out to be completely different form all other powers of a similar nature making any point you make false. Zeref simply wanted Natsu to be able to kill him, that was the whole point there was even an entire arc about awakening END, which zeref admitted to have hoped for. And Chronos is a god just like how Ankhserem is a god, enough said there. Gray can stop END as he is it’s natural weakness, both were weakened and Erza could stop them otherwise. Yes Wendy is, scaling to Demons of Zeref. You have no proof as you did not see the meteor through the clouds as we could clearly see that the meteor already reached the earth, so no, the conversation could very well have been on its way at the time. Irene being a dragon does not matter, she is a spriggan, and that is all there is to it, Dragons are only mountain level while Spriggans are country-Large country

 

[Axiomus]

Zeref does have limits though, as FH only makes his supply limitless.

Even if Zeref himself has limits, Fairy Heart has no limits. Even if Zeref can't use all of Fairy Heart's power in one spell, Natsu would have to burn away all of Fairy Heart's magic power to actually defeat Zeref. All of it. If Natsu just wipes out the magic in Zeref's container, then Fairy Heart will just instantly refill it and Zeref could just rewind time again. The fact that Zeref was unable to do this proves that Natsu burned away Fairy Heart's infinite power.

You are wrong and you know it as FH and Zeref where one and the same. FH could not be any more effect than Zeref was effected by Natsu's attack, that is why he can reverse time no matter what happens, Natsu had to be in Savage flame mode to bypass time magic.

Yet again, completely false. Fairy Heart and Zeref were not one and the same. Fairy Heart is a magic that can be transferred from person to person. Zeref had possession of Fairy Heart when he took it from Mavis. The state of Zeref's body has absolutely no effect on whether or not Fairy Heart works or not. What you're saying doesn't make any sense because Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart. If Natsu destroyed Fairy Heart when he vaporized Zeref's body, Zeref would be stuck as dust in the air. The fact that Zeref used Fairy Heart's power to rewind time proves that Fairy Heart wasn't affected when Natsu blew up Zeref's body.

Spoiler: Zeref says reversing time is the power of Fairy Heart

I've lost track of how many times I've had to explain the Natsu vs Zeref fight. Please just read the chapter and keep track of the order of events. I will summarize the fight for you one last time. This is quite literally everything that happened in the fight after Zeref obtains Fairy Heart. I will not be responding to your next post if you claim something outright wrong like "But Natsu burned Fairy Heart with his first attack, and Zeref still rewinded time". Statements like that are not worth arguing against. This is what actually happened in the fight:

• [Chapter 533] Natsu uses an FDK Demolition Fist in Dragon Force. This attack vaporizes Zeref's body.
• Zeref uses Fairy Heart's power to reverse time and undo all the damage that Natsu did to his body and the guild.
• Zeref stabs Natsu through the chest with his hand.
• [Chapter 534] Lucy rewrites the book of END, and this heals Natsu's wounds.
• [Chapter 535] Natsu punches Zeref in the face with fire, giving Zeref a bloody lip and a bruised face.
• Natsu punches Zeref on the other side of his face without fire. This attack does no noticeable damage.
• Natsu punches Zeref again in the body. This makes Zeref bend over, but does no noticeable damage.
• Zeref cuts Natsu across his chest with his hands.
• Natsu's guild mark starts glowing, signifying that Natsu is invoking his flames of savage emotions. With this power of feelings boost, Natsu fires off an FDK Demolition FIst. At the same time Zeref uses his Dark Abyss: Exploding Blade.
  [Chapter 536] The two attacks clash, and Natsu's flames begin to burn away Fairy Heart's power. This FDK Demolition Fist is the attack that burns away Fairy Heart's time magic.
• Natsu, still amped with the power of feelings, punches Zeref one last time. This attack does so much damage to Zeref's body that Zeref can't move. This is when Zeref calls Natsu's flames blaze of savage emotions. It should be noted that this is just Zeref's thoughts on Natsu's flames. The punch that Natsu uses doesn't actually have a name. Natsu was using the same flames here that he was using with FDK Demolition FIst above.

We do not always use that though, just being an infinite gravity well or absorbing light is enough, not all of them has to be present at once. Those characters are entirely relevant and you are ignoring them entirely just like you are ignoring facts from the manga itself.

No. You choose not to use science for Bluenote's black hole despite choosing to use science to hype Wall's attacks. It's a double standard, plain and simple. If you were being consistent with strictly adhering to science, you would accept Bluenote's blackhole as being multi-planetary. I have not ignored a single feat from the manga itself. Wall simply has not shown the ability to destroy a country. The Spriggans simply have not shown feats of being able to destroy a country. The people who beat Spriggans have not shown feats of destroy countries either. August, someone vastly superior to Wall, could destroy a country with Ars Magia - which is a suicide spell that takes up all of August's power.

No Igneel’s power is only because it was special in this case as it was the power of the dying, besides it was zeref’s Theory, which could possibly not work, by your logic Igneel’s power would not work if it is a matter of power level, however, Zeref made Igneel’s power out to be completely different form all other powers of a similar nature making any point you make false.

Please do not say "by your logic" if you can't actually explain my argument. My argument is that Igneel could kill Zeref simply because he was powerful enough to do so. Nowhere in my line of reasoning did I imply that Zeref cannot be killed with raw power. That is an assertion you injected that has nothing to do with my logic.

Once again, this is my argument: The power of the dead is not special. Anyone can obtain it. Gray had it during the Tartarus arc, when Silver died and gave him his power. Literally every 2nd, 3rd generation dragon slayer has the power of a dead dragon in their lacrima. It is easy to kill someone and then take their magic power. Zeref could have asked any of his followers or demons to do it. Instead, Zeref specifically asked Igneel to train Natsu to become strong enough to kill him. He did so without ever planning for Natsu to one day obtain the power of a dead person. The obvious reason for this would be because he respected Igneel's power and wanted Natsu to one day reach that level. Zeref took note of how powerful Igneel's magic was when Natsu first unravelled the bandages, noting its power and heat. Zeref even noted that Natsu's ability to kill him was dependent on how much strength he has.

Zeref simply wanted Natsu to be able to kill him, that was the whole point there was even an entire arc about awakening END, which zeref admitted to have hoped for.

Zeref not only wanted Natsu to be the one to kill him, he also believed that Natsu was stronger than END. Not the overpowered Natsu of the Alvarez arc, but the relatively weak Natsu of the Tartarus arc. Igneel is undeniably stronger than END's power. When Natsu claimed that Igneel could crush END with one toe, Zeref agreed and admitted there was no reason Igneel couldn't just kill END. That right off the bat tells us how weak END was compared to actual top tiers. He has very little chance of actually beating Zeref in a fight, let alone landing enough hits to kill him.

And Chronos is a god just like how Ankhserem is a god, enough said there.

Chronos is nowhere near Ankhseram. Ikusatsunagi is a god too. Natsu smashed him with his own power. Being stronger than a god, specifically Chronos, is nothing special. A myriad of characters are stronger than Chronos Soul takeover.

Gray can stop END as he is it’s natural weakness, both were weakened and Erza could stop them otherwise.

It doesn't matter if Demons are weak to Devil Slaying magic. Dragons are weak to dragon slaying magic, but Igneel or Acnologia would still stomp all over Natsu. Fairy Heart's infinite power and time hax is way more of an advantage than a slayer weakness. Fairy Heart makes Zeref a way tougher opponent than Gray, regardless of demon slaying magic. Base Zeref can already oneshot Larcade, who is the strongest Etherious after END.

Yes Wendy is, scaling to Demons of Zeref.

No she is not. Neither Wendy or Ezel showed city-level feats. Only Jackal showed city-level feats, and that was with a suicide attack. Jackal's regular attacks are not city level. Not that this matters, because Wendy being city level would make the parent dragons feats even more impressive. Wendy was exhausted after destroying 1 face. The dragons destroyed 3000 faces.

You have no proof as you did not see the meteor through the clouds as we could clearly see that the meteor already reached the earth, so no, the conversation could very well have been on its way at the time. Irene being a dragon does not matter, she is a spriggan, and that is all there is to it, Dragons are only mountain level while Spriggans are country-Large country

Yes, I absolutely do have proof. You could absolutely see the meteor through the clouds. The conversation literally happens when you can see Erza and the meteor in the same panel. Like with the Natsu vs. Zeref fight, I'm going to ask you to please go read the chapter again. We should not be debating over stuff we can clearly see.

Spoiler: Erza and Irene's fight

Irene can literally only summon the meteor because of the power boost being a dragon provides her. Finally do you not see the irony of saying dragons are only mountain level while Spriggans are country level, when Irene herself is a Spriggan that is stronger as a dragon? Spriggan is only a rank. Being a dragon slayer that can turn into a dragon is what actually makes Irene strong.

 

[WoWfan]

FH doesn’t exhaust itself on magic power, though it is determined how much Zeref has, that is why Zeref is not universal by any means. That does not matter if it can be transferred from person to person, because FH and Zeref are one in the same at that very moment, that is not what we are talking about, Zeref has FH that allows him to reverse time, yet he and FH were destroyed completely by Natsu on the first hit, even then he could reverse time regardless, so it is not a matter of actually burning away FH, he has to bypass Time Magic to do it, because any attempt would be futile otherwise. Yet through those moments in the the chapters, none of that mattered until Natsu used savage flames to distort the fabric of space time to burn away FH and defeat Zeref, Though could not kill him anyway. No, you are being too literal about this because you cannot accept the fact that the manga states explicitly that Wall uses Magnetic confinement Fusion for his attacks which make him country-large Country by energy quality, not size, it doesn’t matter what you think, it is what it is. You cannot prove that Igneel can kill Zeref because all that would leave massive plot holes in the story you cannot explain, Igneel’s magic is special (by Zeref’s theory) just like how END can kill Zeref with it’s ability to surpass god powers. That does not take away from the fact that Zeref was hoping for END to be awakened because it can kill him, because of it’s ability to surpass god powers, it doesn’t matter what the reason why it is what it is. It does matter especially when Devil Slayer magic explicitly fends off curses, like Natsu’s, so each slayer magic is unique compared to one another. Strength is not relavent here, it is hax abilities. Jackal can level entire towns and cities even with suicide move, and Ezel scales to that, that is why Wendy scales too in DF. Still does not prove anything, that can very well be just when the meteor enters the earth’s atmosphere just when Erza meets it in the air. You only see the clouds but no meteor, yet August was equal to her in strength, and even in her human form, she could compress an entire continent size nation with ease, way above anything any dragon has shown besides Acnologia.

 

[Axiomus]

Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.
Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.
Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.
Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.
Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.

The one and only time Zeref reversed time was with Fairy Heart's power. That was when Natsu vaporized Zeref's body with dragon force. Zeref was using Fairy Heart's power when his body was dust in the air. That right there is proof that Fairy Heart is not limited by Zeref's body. Fairy Heart can't have possibly been destroyed by Natsu when he vaporized Zeref's body, because Zeref can't possibly be using Fairy Heart's power if it was destroyed. This is just basic logic. I'll say it one last time: Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.

I can accept the fact that Wall uses magical confinement fusion for his etherion. What I don't accept is that proves him as a country buster. Again, Bluenote's black hole should have the mass of multiple earths. We can even use your logic, and disregard size. Accept that Bluenote is multi-planet level and I will accept Wall is country-level. Or accept that Natsu is universal by virtue of being able to burn time, and I will accept Wall as country level.

Igneel being capable of killing Zeref leaves no plot holes. None. First of all, Igneel was not at full power 400 years ago because Acnologia stole his soul. This could have been why training Natsu was the only option. Secondly, Igneel needed Natsu to go 400 years into the future so he could face Acnologia. Killing Zeref would kill Natsu, which would put a wrench in his plans. Also Igneel loved Natsu, so Igneel lacks the motive to kill Zeref. Heck, Natsu couldn't kill Zeref when he realized he would be making his friend sad. Not hard to see why Igneel couldn't bring himself to do it. Also, Zeref was hoping for Natsu to kill him, not END. He flat out said END couldn't kill him after Natsu faced him with Igneel's power.

Once again: Even if Gray had a slayer advantage against END's power, the infinite power boost and time hax that Fairy Heart provide waaaaaay more of a combat advantage against END. Zeref doesn't need devil slayer magic to oneshot demons like Larcade. The vast majority of END's body is physically the same as normal Natsu's, pretty much everywhere except for the arms. Zeref stabbed a hole through Natsu's chest. He can stab a hole through END's chest. There is nothing in END's arsenal that would prevent that. Unlike Natsu, END can't invoke flames of savage emotions because that requires him to tap into the feelings of love he has for his guild. Also, END and Gray's combined attacks failed to do any real damage to Erza. Erza doesn't have devil slaying magic, so there is absolutely no excuse here. Erza is not stronger than Zeref, so there's no reason whatsoever Zeref can't tank or block END's hits.

The 9 Demon Gates are not all on the same level. Do you honestly think Keith is city level, and that Juvia is above city level? But I digress. If Wendy is city level that just makes destroying face even more impressive. Wendy exhausted all of her power trying to destroy 1 face. That means it takes a city-level mage all of their power to destroy 1 face. That makes the parent dragons way more impressive for having destroyed 3000 faces.

August being equal to Irene means that the strongest human mage in all of Alvarez is equal to....a dragon. Universe One requires preparation, as Irene stated herself. It's not a spell Irene could spam. Also Universe One doesn't change the fact that Irene's magic is stronger when she is a dragon. And as a dragon, she is not on Acnologia, Igneel, the 5 dragon gods, or even the parent dragons' level. If Wendy's magic enchanted into Erza's sword could do this much damage to her, imagine what Grandine's magic enchanted into her claws could do.

Spoiler: Erza vs Meteor. Please click the spoiler and read the pages

You can clearly see the meteor and Erza in the same panel, well within the atmosphere, when Erza and Irene have their conversation. Top right panel of first page: Erza and the Meteor are in the same panel. Bottom left panel: Erza and the meteor is in the same panel, like less than 200 meters apart. Top panel, second page: Erza is less than 100m from the meteor. I mean for heaven's sakes, Erza is literally right next to the meteor when she's talking with Irene. They exchange a page worth of dialogue before Erza actually reaches the meteor. I'm sorry, but this is where I have to stop. Even when I go out of my way to post images from the manga showing exactly what I am saying, you simply just pretend as if the exact opposite is what happened. There is no point in continuing to debate like this, as no amount of evidence can convince you to change your mind. This will be my last post on the subject. You may have the last word

 

[WoWfan]

Yet he can reverse time with FH, that is why he is pretty much op against Natsu without Savage Flames. How do you know that when you cannot see FH outside of Zeref’s body, if that were the case the Savage Flame Natsu would not have worked that FH is outside of Zeref’s body and somewhere else. Plus Zeref is immortal so that is another factor to FH being in Zeref. Yes it does make him country level because of how much energy he was producing with nuclear fusion. That is not how we do things when defining stats of characters in story there is such a thing as scaling, and Bluenote being multiplanet is outliner, but Wall’s Country level dc fits perfectly. Yes it does, Zeref being an evil mage would be enough reason for Igneel to kill Zeref right there and then, in fact he is much evil for being an accomplice to this plot. Just remove Zeref and be done with it, Igneel could just find another kid to do the same thing, there is no shortage of humans lying around. Natsu could kill Zeref when he is END, so there ya go. END can just tap into his hatred to fuel his curse power. Zeref did not have an infinite power boost, just infinite energy supply for his finite magic container. All demons besides END are failures, because they lack what is needed to kill Zeref. END and Gray are not at their best so Erza could stop both of them while still having to fight a Spriggan. That would only prove my point that Dragons are not continent level and just around or above mountain level, where the Spriggans are stronger in general. What you say doesn’t change anything that the meteor was moving at relativistic speeds, you do realize how fast things move between panels from one Moment to the next right? No, a dragon is mountain level while a standard Spriggan is country level, waaaaaaay above anything they could do, besides that, dragons can survive because of dragon scales, Irene as an example is totally irrelevant.

 

[Woodenstool]

Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.
Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.
Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.
Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.
Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.

The one and only time Zeref reversed time was with Fairy Heart's power. That was when Natsu vaporized Zeref's body with dragon force. Zeref was using Fairy Heart's power when his body was dust in the air. That right there is proof that Fairy Heart is not limited by Zeref's body. Fairy Heart can't have possibly been destroyed by Natsu when he vaporized Zeref's body, because Zeref can't possibly be using Fairy Heart's power if it was destroyed. This is just basic logic. I'll say it one last time: Zeref cannot reverse time without Fairy Heart.

I can accept the fact that Wall uses magical confinement fusion for his etherion. What I don't accept is that proves him as a country buster. Again, Bluenote's black hole should have the mass of multiple earths. We can even use your logic, and disregard size. Accept that Bluenote is multi-planet level and I will accept Wall is country-level. Or accept that Natsu is universal by virtue of being able to burn time, and I will accept Wall as country level.

Igneel being capable of killing Zeref leaves no plot holes. None. First of all, Igneel was not at full power 400 years ago because Acnologia stole his soul. This could have been why training Natsu was the only option. Secondly, Igneel needed Natsu to go 400 years into the future so he could face Acnologia. Killing Zeref would kill Natsu, which would put a wrench in his plans. Also Igneel loved Natsu, so Igneel lacks the motive to kill Zeref. Heck, Natsu couldn't kill Zeref when he realized he would be making his friend sad. Not hard to see why Igneel couldn't bring himself to do it. Also, Zeref was hoping for Natsu to kill him, not END. He flat out said END couldn't kill him after Natsu faced him with Igneel's power.

Once again: Even if Gray had a slayer advantage against END's power, the infinite power boost and time hax that Fairy Heart provide waaaaaay more of a combat advantage against END. Zeref doesn't need devil slayer magic to oneshot demons like Larcade. The vast majority of END's body is physically the same as normal Natsu's, pretty much everywhere except for the arms. Zeref stabbed a hole through Natsu's chest. He can stab a hole through END's chest. There is nothing in END's arsenal that would prevent that. Unlike Natsu, END can't invoke flames of savage emotions because that requires him to tap into the feelings of love he has for his guild. Also, END and Gray's combined attacks failed to do any real damage to Erza. Erza doesn't have devil slaying magic, so there is absolutely no excuse here. Erza is not stronger than Zeref, so there's no reason whatsoever Zeref can't tank or block END's hits.

The 9 Demon Gates are not all on the same level. Do you honestly think Keith is city level, and that Juvia is above city level? But I digress. If Wendy is city level that just makes destroying face even more impressive. Wendy exhausted all of her power trying to destroy 1 face. That means it takes a city-level mage all of their power to destroy 1 face. That makes the parent dragons way more impressive for having destroyed 3000 faces.

August being equal to Irene means that the strongest human mage in all of Alvarez is equal to....a dragon. Universe One requires preparation, as Irene stated herself. It's not a spell Irene could spam. Also Universe One doesn't change the fact that Irene's magic is stronger when she is a dragon. And as a dragon, she is not on Acnologia, Igneel, the 5 dragon gods, or even the parent dragons' level. If Wendy's magic enchanted into Erza's sword could do this much damage to her, imagine what Grandine's magic enchanted into her claws could do.

Spoiler: Erza vs Meteor. Please click the spoiler and read the pages

You can clearly see the meteor and Erza in the same panel, well within the atmosphere, when Erza and Irene have their conversation. Top right panel of first page: Erza and the Meteor are in the same panel. Bottom left panel: Erza and the meteor is in the same panel, like less than 200 meters apart. Top panel, second page: Erza is less than 100m from the meteor. I mean for heaven's sakes, Erza is literally right next to the meteor when she's talking with Irene. They exchange a page worth of dialogue before Erza actually reaches the meteor. I'm sorry, but this is where I have to stop. Even when I go out of my way to post images from the manga showing exactly what I am saying, you simply just pretend as if the exact opposite is what happened. There is no point in continuing to debate like this, as no amount of evidence can convince you to change your mind. This will be my last post on the subject. You may have the last word

you really expect people to read this long ass response?

The manga is 20 pages a week, it’s not hard to go through it without missing detail. You’re here telling the obvious as if we don’t read the story. This is a power ranking thread not stort time.

We all know Gildarts remains the strongest character. The spin off series isn’t even written by the main author nor is it being supervised by him. So anything on there is filler, you can believe in that to help you sleep at night but it doesn’t make any arguments you claim stronger.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 23, 2018 ---

Yet he can reverse time with FH, that is why he is pretty much op against Natsu without Savage Flames. How do you know that when you cannot see FH outside of Zeref’s body, if that were the case the Savage Flame Natsu would not have worked that FH is outside of Zeref’s body and somewhere else. Plus Zeref is immortal so that is another factor to FH being in Zeref. Yes it does make him country level because of how much energy he was producing with nuclear fusion. That is not how we do things when defining stats of characters in story there is such a thing as scaling, and Bluenote being multiplanet is outliner, but Wall’s Country level dc fits perfectly. Yes it does, Zeref being an evil mage would be enough reason for Igneel to kill Zeref right there and then, in fact he is much evil for being an accomplice to this plot. Just remove Zeref and be done with it, Igneel could just find another kid to do the same thing, there is no shortage of humans lying around. Natsu could kill Zeref when he is END, so there ya go. END can just tap into his hatred to fuel his curse power. Zeref did not have an infinite power boost, just infinite energy supply for his finite magic container. All demons besides END are failures, because they lack what is needed to kill Zeref. END and Gray are not at their best so Erza could stop both of them while still having to fight a Spriggan. That would only prove my point that Dragons are not continent level and just around or above mountain level, where the Spriggans are stronger in general. What you say doesn’t change anything that the meteor was moving at relativistic speeds, you do realize how fast things move between panels from one Moment to the next right? No, a dragon is mountain level while a standard Spriggan is country level, waaaaaaay above anything they could do, besides that, dragons can survive because of dragon scales, Irene as an example is totally irrelevant.

Spriggan is not county level, non of them have any attack potency relative to continental. Not even Acnologia after being amped with more magic couldn’t produce anything on that level.

Powerscaling, Dimaria is literally the most overpowered character along side Brandish. No one but top tiers like Zeref can counter her magic, she had to be third partied to be eliminated to further move the plot. But you put a blood lusted Dimaria one on one against anyone and they get smoked before they even realize.

If you even try to form an counter argument against Dimaria I’m just going to simply ignore what you say. I read the the story enough times to know that’s Dimaria blitz the spriggan and fairy tail guild at the same time.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 23, 2018 ---

FH doesn’t exhaust itself on magic power, though it is determined how much Zeref has, that is why Zeref is not universal by any means. That does not matter if it can be transferred from person to person, because FH and Zeref are one in the same at that very moment, that is not what we are talking about, Zeref has FH that allows him to reverse time, yet he and FH were destroyed completely by Natsu on the first hit, even then he could reverse time regardless, so it is not a matter of actually burning away FH, he has to bypass Time Magic to do it, because any attempt would be futile otherwise. Yet through those moments in the the chapters, none of that mattered until Natsu used savage flames to distort the fabric of space time to burn away FH and defeat Zeref, Though could not kill him anyway. No, you are being too literal about this because you cannot accept the fact that the manga states explicitly that Wall uses Magnetic confinement Fusion for his attacks which make him country-large Country by energy quality, not size, it doesn’t matter what you think, it is what it is. You cannot prove that Igneel can kill Zeref because all that would leave massive plot holes in the story you cannot explain, Igneel’s magic is special (by Zeref’s theory) just like how END can kill Zeref with it’s ability to surpass god powers. That does not take away from the fact that Zeref was hoping for END to be awakened because it can kill him, because of it’s ability to surpass god powers, it doesn’t matter what the reason why it is what it is. It does matter especially when Devil Slayer magic explicitly fends off curses, like Natsu’s, so each slayer magic is unique compared to one another. Strength is not relavent here, it is hax abilities. Jackal can level entire towns and cities even with suicide move, and Ezel scales to that, that is why Wendy scales too in DF. Still does not prove anything, that can very well be just when the meteor enters the earth’s atmosphere just when Erza meets it in the air. You only see the clouds but no meteor, yet August was equal to her in strength, and even in her human form, she could compress an entire continent size nation with ease, way above anything any dragon has shown besides Acnologia.

Didn’t read past two sentences and already found ridiculous claims. Fairy heart was stated multiple times to be infinite magic. Zeref was clearly holding back and wanted to see what Natsu could do and still couldn’t kill him in his strongest state. “Natsu destroyed him body” ok? Zeref said he and mavis would be Acnologia saves for eternity implying not even he could kill Zeref.

I’m not reading your post when in 2 sentences your inconsistent to the story.

 

[WoWfan]

Spriggans scale to Wall’s attack which is based on Nuclear Fusion, and we can find the amount of energy his attacks can produce which makes it Country-Large Country level via radiation energy:

Wall’s Etherion being 2.31137195625E+25 joules = 724.88 Teratons (Large Country)

Wall’s first plasma ball being 4.8917925E+22 joules = 11.69 Teratons (Country)

Dimaria’s magic is not scalable to strength since it is hax, but that doesn’t make her any less weak than the average Spriggan.

I am not saying anything like that, like you said she could only be countered by those who have explicit abilities to counter her time stop.

That is not what we are talking about, Axi said having infinite energy makes Zeref omniversal level which I am trying to rectify that saying he is only scalable to those in verse as he himself has a finite magic container but limitless magic source. Zeref would be at least somewhat continent level scaling above August and Irene who the later can compress a continent size nation.

 

[Axiomus]

Woodenstool, I'm sorry if you find my posts to be a long read, but I assure you having to spend paragraphs explaining things that are very obvious just by reading the manga isn't very productive for me either. Gildarts isn't the strongest mage in the series, and arguably isn't even the strongest in Fairy Tail anymore. Anyone as strong as END can move through Dimaria's time. Dimaria also has no means of hurting any dragons even if she does stop time. They would just no sell her attempts at hurting them, and then stomp her when she's out of magic. The 100 years quest is both written and drawn by Mashima, and is definitely canon. He literally writes the story and draws the name (basically the rough copy). Atsuo takes this draft, redraws the panels if he needs to, and inks them. It's part of the reason why Astuo's art so closely resembles Mashima's.

Spoiler: This is the rough draft Mashima drew for chapter 2

WoWfan, that's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that even if Zeref can't use all of Fairy Heart's infinite power at one time, Natsu still burned away all of Fairy Heart's infinite power. If Natsu only burned the power in Zeref's container, Fairy Heart would refill it and Zeref would just rewind time afterwards. The only way Natsu could have possibly defeated Zeref was if he destroyed Fairy Heart's infinite power. This would make Natsu universal if you were consistent about using real world physics to rank power levels. Also, skimming through your last post you mentioned somewhere that Igneel would kill Zeref just because he was evil as a plot-hole. That's not true. Zeref and Igneel were friends 400 years ago, and Zeref was good enough of a person to help Igneel plan to defeat Acnologia. He was a good person all the way up until the middle of the Tenrou Arc when he decided that he would just kill everyone.

 

[WoWfan]

He just burned away FH which is what supplies infinite magic to Zeref who cannot even defeat Acnologia even in that state. So there is obviously a limit which FH is. In order to do that he has to bypass Zeref’s time magic which would make any attacks relatively ineffective. There is the thing called scaling which is what we use here and call that NLF. Being friends makes Igneel just as evil as Zeref was if he is as ignorant as even Mavis was in the beginning. Being under the influence of the curse does not exempt him from his wrongful deeds. In the end it is not a matter of strength, it is about the type of power it is that can defeat Zeref’s immortality. Acnologia is stronger and even he cannot kill Zeref (even with FH). Do you not see the flaw in your reason? Just like how Dimaria’s magic could ont be surpassed by certain powers as well. Which should be obvious enough

 

[LaGOAT]

What bugs me is y u think gods are stronger than the dragons when there is actual evidence that dragons are considered the Strongest species in the series. 2.i don’t why u take dimaria words so serious when she wasn’t the top 3 strongest spriggan including Irene (a dragon] is stronger than her. 3.ur excuse of END Wasn’t 100% is so irrelevant because no he wasnt 100% fighting Zeref and was able to one shot him in base mode n he pretty much no diff dimaria

 

[WoWfan]

That is to the contrary that Spriggans and other high level wizards have proven to be much stronger than many dragons, the only thing though that stops them from being slain is their dragon scales. And the manga volume even goes as far to say that the Spriggans are the strongest enemies FT ever faced, that would put them well above the Dragons they fought before (besides Acno) and like I said before, if someone like Acnologia, who could eat any magic and is the strongest cannot kill Zeref, then there is someone more powerful than even the strongest dragon, Dimaria knows more about her powers than not, so she should know not to use it against her fellow Spriggans unless if traitors. Ah, yes, END can kill Zeref because that is what he was created to do, with his powers proved that when he surpassed god’s time stop, just like he can surpass god’s immortality.