Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Mankichi Togawa]

I'm going now to sleep so I'm not going to debate but Nisekoi is the biggest Jump romcom ever for you because it's your opinion and your 10s decade bias lol

For argument sake that ''Video Girl Ai and Kimagure are indeed irrelevanat because they were 80s manga so is normal they sold a lot'', To Love-Ru is from 2008, it was shorter than Nisekoi, and it has more total sales plus crossovers, spinoffs and side material (Video Girl Ai also has all of this plus live action series from this very decade).

And your other bias of ''only Jump matters, screw Magazine and Sunday'' also shows in your last post. The World God Only Knows was also huge in 10s first half, but is a Sunday manga (well, I don't remember the total sales but it was really huge until it ended).

 

[Paze]

I found this, it's old and I don't know if it's been posted before but,

"
A misunderstanding stemming from Bakuman, however, is the power of the weekly readership surveys. Obata and Ohba’s manga seems to depict them as all-powerful, deciding the fate of series all on their own as a dramatic narrative device.
This isn’t the case in reality, however. Nakano described the surveys during the interview as more of a “tool” for gathering “differing opinions” from those of the editorial team, which then inform the decisions they make about a series. Other factors, such as the target demographic and collected volume sales, also enter into the picture.

Looking only to the surveys can, in many cases, confuse fans as to the current state of Weekly Shonen Jump. Seeing such series as Chainsaw Man and Jimoto ga Japan so low in the rankings but continue to be serialized can be perplexing, but can be explained when other factors, such as the younger demographic for Jimoto and volume sales for Chainsaw, are considered."

from: https://www.otaquest.com/david-and-goliath-hiroyuki-nakano-takekawa-shingo-interview/

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

Mid 2010s. AE is referring to 2016, which is actually a more devastating year considering we lost:

1. Arguably the biggest romcom in Jump history. (Nisekoi)
2. One of the leading series of the magazine at its prime. (Assassination Classroom)
3. A series which had been running for 40 years. (Kochikame)
4. One of the Big 3. (Bleach)
5. A series that, while it had run itself into the ground somewhat, was still a very much a big part of the magazine for the better part of a decade. (Toriko)

This current period isn't great for sure, but it's less messy because Jump's series more or less are built as a collective now. While losing TPN and KNY won't exactly be great, it's easier to bounce back compared to what we lost previously.

Jump lost a lot in 2016 but it was in a way better state than now, they had Black Clover in the last year, in the same year they had Yuuna, Kimetsu, Boruto, Neverland and minor series like Sesuji wo Pin, Samon-kun and etc, this year is just Chainsaw Man so far and it still only decent sales (but growing) and like i said, plenty of left space to be filled yet

 

[Rain Spectre]

Jump lost a lot in 2016 but it was in a way better state than now, they had Black Clover in the last year, in the same year they had Yuuna, Kimetsu, Boruto, Neverland and minor series like Sesuji wo Pin, Samon-kun and etc, this year is just Chainsaw Man so far and it still only decent sales (but growing) and like i said, plenty of left space to be filled yet

Not disagreeing with you, just saying that there's very much an alternate viewpoint.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

Sales /=/ Impact.

Also, when you wanna argue, do remember Nisekoi is easily the biggest romcom in Jump in terms of scope. Video Girl Ai and Kimagure did well, yes, but that was during the Golden Age, when titles were selling like gangbusters and Jump was the actual king of the industry, not to mention the former only ran for 13 volumes. TLR meanwhile was actually selling the least of any series in the Big 3 Era, that just looks still big today because that was the absolute peak in average volume sales for Jump manga.

Nisekoi meanwhile is not only the longest romcom Jump has ever had (for better or worse), but it's the one with the biggest influence on Jump during its run. It was consistently in the Top 5 or near the Top 5 in terms of best-selling titles in the magazine, it had crossovers, spinoffs, side material, what have you. It was a bigger part of Jump as a brand than any of those series you mentioned, and was easily the biggest romcom in the industry while it was running (whereas Kimagure and Ai would've been overshadowed by whatever Takahashi and Adachi were doing over in Sunday).

I didn't get your argument at all, it's like you're just saying "Nisekoi was longer, so he was more popular and influencial", you're playing VERY ignorant here not only about the romcom/ecchi history on Jump but in the industry as a whole, Nisekoi can be one of the longest and it's one of the most popular if you count sales, but honestly, the reputation is simply terrible, it didn't have any impact at all on how romcoms work (since it didn't bring anything new at all) in the magazine, let alone the industry and SJ have many more memorable and reputable romcoms than Nisekoi (Even To Love-ru as a franchise had more impact in the industry).

 

[TyVip]

Ah yes, TLR must be irrelevant enough for it to receive a 10 year anniversary art-book with artworks from mangaka like Oda, Obata, Murata, Araki, Ashimoto, etc... a lifesize Lala status, and multiple OVAs.

You could argue that if not for the Yabuki's incident, he would have got cancel OR still continue until the duos decide to end it. But they ended in their own term, and Shuiesha ALLOWED them to do a sequel in Jump Square, where it immediately becomes one of the best seller (Selling 200k-300k/volume)

It also received a 2nd season after it has ended in 2009 (darkness launched the same time 2nd season aired, which they couldn't have planned that at all and purely a coincidence)

 

[Rain Spectre]

Ah yes, TLR must be irrelevant enough for it to receive a 10 year anniversary art-book with artworks from mangaka like Oda, Obata, Murata, Araki, Ashimoto, etc... a lifesize Lala status, and multiple OVAs.

You could argue that if not for the Yabuki's incident, he would have got cancel OR still continue until the duos decide to end it. But they ended in their own term, and Shuiesha ALLOWED them to do a sequel in Jump Square, where it immediately becomes one of the best seller (Selling 200k-300k/volume)

It also received a 2nd season after it has ended in 2009 (darkness launched the same time 2nd season aired, which they couldn't have planned that at all and purely a coincidence)

When did I say TLR was irrelevant? Was me saying Nisekoi is bigger somehow supposed to be an indicator against it?

Also, numbers simply don't lie. TLR, at its peak in its original run, was selling 212k per Oricon. Nisekoi was selling 350k. There's no real way around it, Nisekoi trumps it.

 

[101nemesis]

When did I say TLR was irrelevant?

Also, numbers simply don't lie. TLR, at its peak in its original run, was selling 212k per Oricon. Nisekoi was selling 350k. There's no real way around it, Nisekoi trumps it.

I'm not getting involved since I don't know shit about TLR or Nisekoi but.....

"Sales /=/ Impact. "
You literally said this, few comments ago man.

 

[Rain Spectre]

I'm not getting involved since I don't know shit about TLR or Nisekoi but.....

"Sales /=/ Impact. "
You literally said this, few comments ago man.

Oh, well, sorry if that's how people read it then.

Trust me, I'm not that big enough an idiot to claim TLR has zero impact, even if I have little respect for it as a work of fiction.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

When did I say TLR was irrelevant? Was me saying Nisekoi is bigger somehow supposed to be an indicator against it?

Also, numbers simply don't lie. TLR, at its peak in its original run, was selling 212k per Oricon. Nisekoi was selling 350k. There's no real way around it, Nisekoi trumps it.

So? it doesn't matter if Nisekoi manga peaked higher than To Love-ru, To Love-ru as a franchise is much bigger and influential than Nisekoi ever was, even with Darkness finished the franchise still alive getting new stuff, chapters and etc while Nisekoi is finished for good

 

[101nemesis]

My two cents. I know no one cares but shhhhh
What I seem to be seeing is a lot of people who have been getting into manga and anime and learning how the industry works recently, especially in the past 2-4 years (just like some in this forum), seem to equate a series popularity outside of Japan to it's popularity inside it.

Everything recent seems "more popular" mainly because the internet and the world is more connected now than it was 15 years ago. People seem to be mistaking the mainstream success anime and manga have found outside Japan and equating that to a series' popularity inside. The manga community outside Japan is the largest it's ever been with 100s of forums, manga Edited Manga sites for SO MANY languages, anime websites, Youtube, streaming apps and all sorts of resources available, most of which didn't exist 10 years ago.

Its the same reason people assume MHA's popularity is on the same lines as Naruto or Bleach. Or like this whole Nisekoi / TLR argument. Same with BC and how some overestimates its popularity in Japan (Before you @ me, it IS popular but its definitely more popular outside Japan than in it). Or like how some think Gintama's sales were "average" without realizing the impact it had as a comedy manga and how impressive its accomplishments are.

 

[Rain Spectre]

My two cents. I know no one cares but shhhhh
What I seem to be seeing is a lot of people who have been getting into manga and anime and learning how the industry works recently, especially in the past 2-4 years (just like some in this forum), seem to equate a series popularity outside of Japan to it's popularity inside it.

Everything recent seems "more popular" mainly because the internet and the world is more connected now than it was 15 years ago. People seem to be mistaking the mainstream success anime and manga have found outside Japan and equating that to a series' popularity inside. The manga community outside Japan is the largest it's ever been with 100s of forums, manga Edited Manga sites for SO MANY languages, anime websites, Youtube, streaming apps and all sorts of resources available, most of which didn't exist 10 years ago.

Its the same reason people assume MHA's popularity is on the same lines as Naruto or Bleach. Or like this whole Nisekoi / TLR argument. Same with BC and how some overestimates its popularity in Japan (Before you @ me, it IS popular but its definitely more popular outside Japan than in it). Or like how some think Gintama's sales were "average" without realizing the impact it had as a comedy manga and how impressive its accomplishments are.

Well, the argument can be made that part of the influence has been, in a way, Jump itself. Call me insane, but I'd argue that, nowadays at least, Jump's identity is consolidated around itself, with all the series that are part of it feeling like part of a central engine. Maybe it's my recency bias in effect, but I don't get that impression with the 2000s, where it seemed like everything just kinda came and did their own thing independently.

 

[101nemesis]

Well, the argument can be made that part of the influence has been, in a way, Jump itself. Call me insane, but I'd argue that, nowadays at least, Jump's identity is consolidated around itself, with all the series that are part of it feeling like part of a central engine. Maybe it's my recency bias in effect, but I don't get that impression with the 2000s, where it seemed like everything just kinda came and did their own thing independently.

You're half right. In the sense that it's not JUST recency bias from your part but also lack of knowledge about how WSJ was prior to the 2010s.

As a favor to yourself, just read more manga prior to this decade and then do some research about the influences each of those manga has had on WSJ and the industry. I'm not talking about just the 00s. But also 90s, 80s etc. You don't need to know each manga and what they are about. You just need to know the influences and their legacies. You won't get that from briefly browsing the net and tweeting.

 

[Rain Spectre]

You're half right. In the sense that it's not JUST recency bias from your part but also lack of knowledge about how WSJ was prior to the 2010s.

As a favor to yourself, just read more manga prior to this decade and then do some research about the influences each of those manga has had on WSJ and the industry. I'm not talking about just the 00s. But also 90s, 80s etc. You don't need to know each manga and what they are about. You just need to know the influences and their legacies. You won't get that from briefly browsing the net and tweeting.

If you're arguing that the 2000s series were more influential, then I don't even disagree there. Doesn't mean they're immune to being criticized. Trust me, I suffered through Hitman Reborn enough to understand that.

Otherwise, I fail to see your point. Are you arguing that the modern series are worse because they have less "impact"? Because that's kinda how art works.

 

[Leoat12]

I'm collecting Tegami Bachi bunko-ban right now and I have to tell you that it is beautiful and convenient the size and the length of content each volume, 20 volumes became 10 volumes with a lot more quality. Having said that, some of the series that had bunko-ban treatment are: Sket Dance, Reborn, Jojo, Bakuman, To Love Ru, NuraMago and many others. I think Nisekoi is good candidate for that and I hope it happens soon, maybe even after Tegami Bachi. 25 volumes will become 12 or 13 volumes, making it very manageable. It would be the second series I have English and Japanese versions in full.

 

[101nemesis]

If you're arguing that the 2000s series were more influential, then I don't even disagree there. Doesn't mean they're immune to being criticized. Trust me, I suffered through Hitman Reborn enough to understand that.

Otherwise, I fail to see your point. Are you arguing that the modern series are worse because they have less "impact"? Because that's kinda how art works.

I don't think any of my statements ever even hints at me saying modern series are worse. I quite enjoyed the chapters (whatever I've read) of all the series in WSJ right now with the exception of maybe one. So, I don't know where you got that from. Seems like you're equating those two things on your own, kinda like how this generation of manga fans seem to love equating the outside popularity of a series to its popularity in Japan.

ANYWAY, your argument is that the modern generation series in WSJ all work together and make the magazine cohesive which you said the 2000s lacked or rather as you said "everything just kinda came and did their own thing independently" while I'm telling you this generation isn't special like how you make it seem. It's JUST like any other generation before it. Every decade has long runs where the magazine feels more cohesive with good quality series that are successful and therefore make it a highly competitive environment. You saying the current generation is special is quite clearly your recency bias. Hence me telling you nicely to educate yourself on the history of the series published in WSJ.
Cool beans?

 

[Leoat12]

I didn't understand what "working together" and "cohesive" means in a magazine with independent series.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

I was about to say that, i don't even know what this is supposed to mean, but you can argue that in 2019 the new series are all working together to become flops :P

 

[Leoat12]

I think they confused cohesiveness with stability because they mention series running long. On that I think the magazine has never been so unstable since I started to follow in 2011, where it has plenty of long running series, most of them a success and many of the greats for the ages. The bottom dynamics are the same, but many successful series has been ending in the last two or three years maybe that made the magazine go through a renovation. The magazine now is younger and tends to be even younger with TPN ending approaching and maybe We Never Learn following it.

Do you think that Jump series will be less lenghty than in the past?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 28, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 28, 2019 ---

My personal opinion about the series I read right now about length. Only the proven successes, of course:
One Piece: Heh, this one is going to last longer than any other in the magazine. XD
The Promised Neverland: Ends this year as it is obvious
We Never Learn: Doesn't have much more life on it, I think it is ending next year.
My Hero Academia: This one is hard to predict like I said before because it has no goals right now, but my hopes are that it ends in 2~3 years at most, otherwise it is going to get boring.
Act-Age: Very hard to know since it is very young despite the popularity, but I think it is not the kind of series that last a long time, 2 or 3 years at the tank as well.

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

I think they confused cohesiveness with stability because they mention series running long. On that I think the magazine has never been so unstable since I started to follow in 2011, where it has plenty of long running series, most of them a success and many of the greats for the ages. The bottom dynamics are the same, but many successful series has been ending in the last two or three years maybe that made the magazine go through a renovation. The magazine now is younger and tends to be even younger with TPN ending approaching and maybe We Never Learn following it.

Do you think that Jump series will be less lenghty than in the past?

Yaiba is also pretty much ending in few months if the author doesn't introduce anything new.

I don't think SJ changed that much, is just that most people here started in a generation where Jump had a good number of longer battle shounens so it gives this impression that current things looks shorter, but if you pick the list of all mangas that were published since 2000, most of the popular mangas were all 5 years of serialization at most and currently we have the "typical" battle shounens like BNHA and Black Clover that will be here for a long time yet, i don't know about Jujutsu Kaisen but i don't see being short like Yaiba or Neverland.

The rest are mangas that you really don't expect to be so long.