Chapter Tower of God Chapter 464 Spoilers & Discussion

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I mean, I’ve already answered that he is still under the power of the admins...

And yet you've failed to distinguish what SPECIFIC limits he has under that power. You've cited things that aren't accurate. Seems like you're assuming what he can and can't do.

He is a “king” but not a god....

To the tower inhabitants he is both, effectively. A distinction without a difference to all in the tower save the admin, and even that relationship we aren't sure where it begins or ends. Why would they need to COVERTLY subvert his kingship via Baam if they can outright control or manage him? Hmmmm?

It is probably the same reason he has “princes” and “princesses” to enforce his will and directive where he cannot just appear...

There is a difference between relying on subordinates for the day-in, day-out mundane bureaucracy (particularly if/when he chose to go into one of his slumbers) and stepping in to handle something himself, such as it was hinted he had to do with Enne (OR Khell OR data floor Baam). It seems you are committed to your idea without any concrete reason as to why. WE KNOW Zahard will get personally involved from time to time, or chooses to, or CAN. And we can speculate why he can't touch Baam - but I've yet to see a good reason from you as to why not.

Phanta and Enryu being the only two who can disobey an admin.

Do we know Enryu can STILL do that? No. In fact he's MIA... being searched for... by an admin no less. We don't even know if either is still in the tower or not.

Enryu had a specific mission and he completed its initial stages. He has no side in the war. He is following the behest of his god.

lol, Enryu was 'enraged' at Zahard's desecration and killed many of his rankers. Sure, he had a mission, but let's not act like he didn't have an axe to grind. We simply don't know what we don't know, but you are downplaying what we do in order to force a narrative that doesn't exist (yet, if at all) in the story. Perhaps Enryu would have killed Zahard if he could, but was limited for some reason (wouldn't that be a lot more direct if he had the power?). Perhaps he didn't have the 'OK' by the outside God. Perhaps he only had enough 'juice' to plant the thorn and then retreat or die. But LOL at the thought he has 'no side' when he was an admirer of Arlen, hated what Zahard did to her, killed his own rankers that he called 'false' for following (false) king, and planted the fucking weapon that is to be used to kill Zahard at some point. Yeah, sure, he had no dog in the fight! Seriously, why are you so argumentative? Why can you not handle anyone questioning your posts without reverting to this weird confirmation-bias that glosses over the so very obvious?

I suspect you know all this already. So what are you really asking?

To prove a point?

Jubei if he “fought Khell” he wouldn’t be alive. He merely showed him he was so far below him and his schemes elementary.

You always get lost in the semantics of things, needlessly (purposely?). We KNOW the story is that Khell faced him directly at one point in the past. Whether Zahard held back or how much power he used at the time is inconsequential. I wasn't making the argument he went all out or tried to kill Khell - rather, the opposite. I was making the point Zahard has SEVERAL instances that are precedent (at least Khell, probably Enne too, going to the hidden floor, etc) where he gets PERSONALLY active to accomplish something himself ('Fine, I'll do it' - Thanos. 'If you want something done right... you have to do it yourself' - every C-level person ever).

Beyond that, I said he fought him to "shut him down" - those were the words I used. You are just being contrarian at this point to try and argue that he somehow didn't face him or he would have died, or that Khell surviving or not was even the point. Continue to tilt at windmills...

I doubt he exerted any actual power. Khell didn’t live at the wall so how are you aware of which floor he encountered Zahard on? Or Khell being a RANKER instead of a REGULAR being the difference in his appearance.

Umm, see above. Not sure why you're insisting on going down this non-relevant road. The POINT is Zahard is more than capable and has shown willingness to get off his throne from time to time.

Baam isn’t side skirting anything he has the obviously explicit help of Evenkhells admin..

No. That's just untrue. Baam has faced rankers - many times now. No admin has stopped that. How is that different from Zahard as a 'ranker' facing him exactly? Did an admin step in on the data floor? You are conflating covert, subversive support with outright 24-7 interference - which Baam decidedly does not have.

He has tried to kill Baam, once in the presence of his mother (Arlene) and again as he encountered him on the Data Floor. It was then he issued the station orders!

You're making my point for me here.

You and I both know if he could he would, so whether due to contracts, regulars admin protection, or for some other ambiguous reason. Does it matter? We know in regards to Baam’s story he said if “he’s worthy he’ll stand before me” which indicates Zahard will do all in his power to prevent that. If Zahard cannot prevent Baam from reaching him then he is “worthy”....

Yes, it matters if you are saying he's somehow limited by the admin, but give no concrete reason why he can't do it himself after all (which he indeed did try as you and I pointed out - data floor).

The reason matters not, only what Zahard is going to do to prevent Baam from climbing. Save for Zahard appearing before him because it is apparent he cannot.

OK, you say it doesn't matter, then why argue? Just to argue?

Admit he's not limited from facing a regular on any floor at any time. Admit there is generally no admin interference as to why he can't. THEN we can speculate on what is ACTUALLY keeping him from confronting Baam at this point - which was exactly what I was doing.

 

[paulbee]

And yet you've failed to distinguish what SPECIFIC limits he has under that power. You've cited things that aren't accurate. Seems like you're assuming what he can and can't do.



To the tower inhabitants he is both, effectively. A distinction without a difference to all in the tower save the admin, and even that relationship we aren't sure where it begins or ends. Why would they need to COVERTLY subvert his kingship via Baam if they can outright control or manage him? Hmmmm?



There is a difference between relying on subordinates for the day-in, day-out mundane bureaucracy (particularly if/when he chose to go into one of his slumbers) and stepping in to handle something himself, such as it was hinted he had to do with Enne (OR Khell OR data floor Baam). It seems you are committed to your idea without any concrete reason as to why. WE KNOW Zahard will get personally involved from time to time, or chooses to, or CAN. And we can speculate why he can't touch Baam - but I've yet to see a good reason from you as to why not.



Do we know Enryu can STILL do that? No. In fact he's MIA... being searched for... by an admin no less. We don't even know if either is still in the tower or not.



lol, Enryu was 'enraged' at Zahard's desecration and killed many of his rankers. Sure, he had a mission, but let's not act like he didn't have an axe to grind. We simply don't know what we don't know, but you are downplaying what we do in order to force a narrative that doesn't exist (yet, if at all) in the story. Perhaps Enryu would have killed Zahard if he could, but was limited for some reason (wouldn't that be a lot more direct if he had the power?). Perhaps he didn't have the 'OK' by the outside God. Perhaps he only had enough 'juice' to plant the thorn and then retreat or die. But LOL at the thought he has 'no side' when he was an admirer of Arlen, hated what Zahard did to her, killed his own rankers that he called 'false' for following (false) king, and planted the fucking weapon that is to be used to kill Zahard at some point. Yeah, sure, he had no dog in the fight! Seriously, why are you so argumentative? Why can you not handle anyone questioning your posts without reverting to this weird confirmation-bias that glosses over the so very obvious?



To prove a point?



You always get lost in the semantics of things, needlessly (purposely?). We KNOW the story is that Khell faced him directly at one point in the past. Whether Zahard held back or how much power he used at the time is inconsequential. I wasn't making the argument he went all out or tried to kill Khell - rather, the opposite. I was making the point Zahard has SEVERAL instances that are precedent (at least Khell, probably Enne too, going to the hidden floor, etc) where he gets PERSONALLY active to accomplish something himself ('Fine, I'll do it' - Thanos. 'If you want something done right... you have to do it yourself' - every C-level person ever).

Beyond that, I said he fought him to "shut him down" - those were the words I used. You are just being contrarian at this point to try and argue that he somehow didn't face him or he would have died, or that Khell surviving or not was even the point. Continue to tilt at windmills...



Umm, see above. Not sure why you're insisting on going down this non-relevant road. The POINT is Zahard is more than capable and has shown willingness to get off his throne from time to time.



No. That's just untrue. Baam has faced rankers - many times now. No admin has stopped that. How is that different from Zahard as a 'ranker' facing him exactly? Did an admin step in on the data floor? You are conflating covert, subversive support with outright 24-7 interference - which Baam decidedly does not have.



You're making my point for me here.



Yes, it matters if you are saying he's somehow limited by the admin, but give no concrete reason why he can't do it himself after all (which he indeed did try as you and I pointed out - data floor).



OK, you say it doesn't matter, then why argue? Just to argue?

Admit he's not limited from facing a regular on any floor at any time. Admit there is generally no admin interference as to why he can't. THEN we can speculate on what is ACTUALLY keeping him from confronting Baam at this point - which was exactly what I was doing.

Sounds like you con't want cash2088 to have his own opinions. I think some of his views are valid to a degree, some more than others..

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Sounds like you con't want cash2088 to have his own opinions. I think some of his views are valid to a degree, some more than others..

I have ZERO problem with someone having their own, differing opinions.

***But there is such a thing as presenting them as opinion vs presenting them as fact.***

There is also such a thing as being combative and contrarian. As in - literally every point has to be argued against to the point someone is creating straw men to attack (that Khell 'didn't actually fight Zahard' whatever that means - when that was not the point made at all) and just arguing to the point that you're saying Enryu was pretty much ambivalent about Zahard just to try and stick to your argumentation (when we know that's absolutely not the case thus far).

Go back to my first post to him that he replied to - I started it by finding common ground about what I agreed with. I find myself all the time saying 'true, but....' to people I don't agree with on here and there's no problems there.

Funny, but I think rather than what you say - that I'm against him having his own opinions - the truth lies closer to he has a hard time having anyone question his opinions without being contrarian about every. single. thing.

Did you have anything you were in agreement or disagreement about that is being discussed?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2020 ---

You've pretty much lost the plot if you say that Enryu, based on nothing and in fact opposite to what lore we have on him, didn't really have an opinion on Zahard - and have descended into just being argumentative.

 

[Jedikos]

OR it's nothing to do with Admins and/or Jahad being restricted, Jahad could be playing the long game here, entertain Baam through fate manipulation, raise everyone's hope that Baam can perhaps stand up to him, all forces gather around Baam. Then Adori, Jahad (with perhaps Lo Po Bia FH and Arie Hon?), appear and squash all the bugs, Baam will have to think twice next time before challenging Jahad again.

My point is, with the minute facts given in the story, all any of us can do is speculate on what we think is happening, we pick a certain point and think about the endless possibilities of that path, so there ain't much alarm for us to sharply disagree on these things, because as has been proven over time and time again, SIU will have most of us in a (in your face!)kind of twist. We should be soft on one another, particularly on such things concerning our own theories.

 

[Lady pompom]

Guys, let’s focus on the spoilers, there is a Zahard discussion thread here: https://mangahelpers.com/forum/threads/king-zahard-discussion.3013160/



Cha and Dowon following different paths, but will he really go with Baam or will he change idea because of Dowon? Maybe he will try to dissuade her in fighting Baam.

 

[cash2088]

lol, so you answer a question with another question. Are you a politician? Convenient side-step.

I'll answer that:

AT LEAST:

* Zahard has projected himself directly into the data floor from wherever in the tower he was. No time limit, no restraints from admin, probably not even a key. And we didn't see an admin follow him. For all we know admin can't access the data floor either. Is this something he can do that admin cannot? And if they can stop him, but didn't, that underscores my point.

* Zahard fought Khell. We don't know the floor, but it'd be awfully convenient if it were on 134F. Weren't we told Zahard came to HIM?

* Zahard, it is strongly implied, went to help/subdue Enne when she rampaged because no one else strong enough was getting it done, seemingly (again, strongly hinted and even told that was the legend). Are all these events ONLY happening on 134F? Or is it more likely that Enne, on the RUN, wasn't in fact on Zahard's final floor out of convenience? Occam's Razor says she was somewhere else.

So. Do we have any example of Zahard being limited from leaving his floor? Concrete, explicit examples? Has he EVER been shown or have we been told of any example of him not being able to leave the floor or fight person X, Y, or Z should he choose?

***convo moved***

None of those are REGULARS... lol me sidestepping?? Your addendums are nice. We don’t know the floor he encountered Khell but I doubt he was a regular.

Arlene is not a regular,

and PROJECTED... Far from descending the actual tower!

not Arlene meant Enne*

 

[Jedikos]

Guys, let’s focus on the spoilers, there is a Zahard discussion thread here: https://mangahelpers.com/forum/threads/king-zahard-discussion.3013160/



Cha and Dowon following different paths, but will he really go with Baam or will he change idea because of Dowon? Maybe he will try to dissuade her in fighting Baam.

Cha does seem to presume that Dowon supports Baam, " I will meet them soon, Dowon and the boy I chose to serve breakfast" , well when he finds out Dowon isnt a fan, I don't think Cha is someone who goes back on his words, he has taken a vow to follow Baam, Dowon will have to be the one to bend and see if it's worth while for their love. Besides didn't the 'Captain' tell Dowon to wait for a few months before making a decision? So I think regardless of Cha, she will take time to think about this decision. That will of course not be the same, if that flashback story where she is really waiting for the son of the great man and woman her master told her about is actually true, I mean now that she has been told that Baam is from outside the Tower.

 

[cash2088]

Cha does seem to presume that Dowon supports Baam, " I will meet them soon, Dowon and the boy I chose to serve breakfast" , well when he finds out Dowon isnt a fan, I don't think Cha is someone who goes back on his words, he has taken a vow to follow Baam, Dowon will have to be the one to bend and see if it's worth while for their love. Besides didn't the 'Captain' tell Dowon to wait for a few months before making a decision? So I think regardless of Cha, she will take time to think about this decision. That will of course not be the same, if that flashback story where she is really waiting for the son of the great man and woman her master told her about is actually true, I mean now that she has been told that Baam is from outside the Tower.

Lol breakfast... better be Wheaties...

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2020 ---

But on topic. I don’t know maybe he is implying he will free Dowon with that boy... Unbeknownst to him she is already free!

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2020 ---

But to me Cha was the leader of the group, the strength lies with him. Him following Baam could give Baam a new teacher!!

What it comes down to is which is stronger? conviction or love?

 

[Jedikos]

Lol breakfast... better be Wheaties...

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2020 ---

But on topic. I don’t know maybe he is implying he will free Dowon with that boy... Unbeknownst to him she is already free!

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2020 ---

But to me Cha was the leader of the group, the strength lies with him. Him following Baam could give Baam a new teacher!!

What it comes down to is which is stronger? conviction or love?

I vote for conviction.
Cha, 'descendant of the first man', his ego/confidence in his abilities,he must have his own reasons for fighting, we will probably be shown flashbacks that explain his conviction, seeing how he respects bloodlines, 'a special boy of Noble blood and fate'?


Anyway now that I read what the 'Boss' said to both Dowon and Cha, sounds like selected truths to steer them to a desired path.
He didn't tell Cha of the boy causing a major war in the tower, just that the boy is the ticket to his dreams, Cha won't care about the consequences anyway upon hearing that, where with Dowon, the 'Boss' comes at her at her weakest and tell her 'when she wakes up, a boy will cause a war', indirectly telling her , her efforts are a waste anyway and won't last long, and even when she wakes up, the boy will be before her, probably dragging the same kingdom she spent eons sealed for into another war, Dowon would naturally want to end Baam's life, if she can that is.

 

[Jammin]

Enough of this.

This thread is for discussion of the chapter. Enryu is not in this chapter. Zahard is not in this chapter. If your what your discussing in this thread isn't a part of the chapter. It's breaking the rules.

Stop. Breaking. The rules.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2020 ---

If you wish to discuss all these things I welcome you to do so... in the appropriate thread. Which is NOT this one.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

 

[GOOMOONRYONG]

I find it weird that Cha and Dowon didn't know that the person they were talking to was a young Zahard. Makes me curious as to how they were manipulated so badly and sealed themselves away.

 

[Ripcord]

I find it weird that Cha and Dowon didn't know that the person they were talking to was a young Zahard. Makes me curious as to how they were manipulated so badly and sealed themselves away.

I kinda wonder if Zahard came with more family and they were more common than now. Then at some point he stripped their power away or killed them.

Or maybe not many had seen an image of the real Zahard.