Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[WoWfan]

No, nothing was proven there as Natsu just assumed that Igneel’s power would be enough without actually using it before then, zeref hypothesized it when first seeing it, he did not know it either.

correction, it is demonic scripture, it corrupts the person, not attack them in the conventional way.

 

[Seven777]

It would have had to been much better because, again, Zeref was much more impressed by it than he was by FDK roar.

Well my point is that Zeref didn't die to either Flames of Savage Emotions or Dragon Force. And yes, technically speaking Zeref's body got obliterated by DF. He still didn't die from that either. END's attack was stuffed by Erza, so I don't even think Zeref needs to tank it per se. I think he can hold out his hand and block it. Even if he wasn't immortal. I agree that END can probably fight on par with Zeref like base Natsu did. Maybe even better. That's not really going to kill Zeref though.

I suppose it depends on how much power you think Igneel left to Natsu. I consider the FDK finisher with Igneel's power to be a stronger attack than Acnologia's casual attack. In the case of Mercphobia's pillars, Gray could only freeze one of them temporarily before Mercphobia turned it back into water. He couldn't freeze Mercphobia's big attacks like the whirlpool. I am dubious on whether Gray can freeze IgNatsu's attacks in the first place, and even if he could I doubt it'll hold.

In what world was Natsu having doubts when he was lying in a coma? The seeds grew because Natsu was doubting his humanity, not whether or not he doubts his will to kill Zeref. That doubt began when Zeref told him he was END, and it didn't go away until he decided he wanted to be human again. The seeds were fusing the entire time. Choosing one seed would have caused the other to crumble away. I suppose you can argue that he didn't choose the demon seed in a conscious way and only gave into it's influence....but then that wouldn't stop the seeds from fusing anyways. He'd still be dying.

He was mildly more impressed initially, then the power of the dead got mentioned and he got his hopes up.

Yeah, which just lends credence to power not being what you need to kill Zeref.
So what? Acno's attack was stuffed by Jellal, it happens. As for Zeref blocking with hands, sure, maybe, he didn't do it to base Natsu but I don't see a problem with it, being able to block an attack doesn't mean that attack can't beat you.

Considering Igneel was on his deathbed, I don't rank the power left in Natsu particularly high, it's certainly not %50 Merc tier. As for Merc turning his pillar back to water, that's two spells on Mercs part, Gray was still able to freeze one of Merc's attacks and when he did turn it back it still lost all it's force. As for IgNatsu being able to turn his fire back into fire, sure, I guess, I don't really see the point though, Gray's not gonna need to use IgNatsu's fire as a ramp.

He was having some pretty interesting dreams as I recall. Natsu was literally a demon when he was END, and he didn't care, I don't see how there's doubt. But let's say you're right, none of this means that 1. END couldn't have evolved further and 2. that Natsu would die if it continued.
Like I told you, all symptoms of the fusion(aka the coma) had ceased when Natsu became END, he wasn't dying, as END Natsu could still fight without issue. There is nothing to suggest that he would turn back into a human without Erza and Lucy's influence, which mean there is nothing that would drop him back into the coma, he would be able to reach Zeref.
As for evolving further, well, I don't exactly buy the further evolution theory, but if I did, the fact that he was able to demonize to that point in the first place is confirmation that regardless of whether the seeds are fusing or not, Natsu can in fact become more of a demon.

You lost me. Zeref's plan was for Igneel to train Natsu to be strong enough to kill him. Not only does he not include END in his plan, but he actually told Natsu that he hopes he would destroy END the next time they meet during Tartaros. Zeref literally said that Natsu would have the choice of destroying END or not, that only one of them would face him, and he hopes that it would be Natsu. I mean, you could say that he wasn't looking for a fight....but he's still telling Natsu that he would have the choice of destroying END or not, and that he hopes he does. How was Natsu going to tap into END's power after that?

Alright, let me break it down.
Why did Zeref give Natsu to Igneel? So that Igneel could make Natsu powerful enough to kill him. Ok, now what exactly is the point in doing that? No matter how strong Igneel made Natsu, Natsu would never be able to kill Zeref, because power isn't what you need to kill Zeref, you need something more.
So, In order for Zeref's plan to make sense, Zeref would have had to have known that Natsu, even as a little boy, had the means to take his immortal life and what would the means be? END. There was literally nothing else special about Natsu at the time. Little boy Natsu already had the qualification to kill Zeref, he just needed the strength, which would come from Igneel.
As for your second part about Zeref wanting Natsu to be himself at the end, just one of Zeref's many contradictions. Zeref wants to see and love Natsu, he also wants Natsu to suffer, he also want Natsu to kill him, he also wants to kill Natsu

 

[LaGOAT]

He was mildly more impressed initially, then the power of the dead got mentioned and he got his hopes up.

Yeah, which just lends credence to power not being what you need to kill Zeref.
So what? Acno's attack was stuffed by Jellal, it happens. As for Zeref blocking with hands, sure, maybe, he didn't do it to base Natsu but I don't see a problem with it, being able to block an attack doesn't mean that attack can't beat you.

Considering Igneel was on his deathbed, I don't rank the power left in Natsu particularly high, it's certainly not %50 Merc tier. As for Merc turning his pillar back to water, that's two spells on Mercs part, Gray was still able to freeze one of Merc's attacks and when he did turn it back it still lost all it's force. As for IgNatsu being able to turn his fire back into fire, sure, I guess, I don't really see the point though, Gray's not gonna need to use IgNatsu's fire as a ramp.

He was having some pretty interesting dreams as I recall. Natsu was literally a demon when he was END, and he didn't care, I don't see how there's doubt. But let's say you're right, none of this means that 1. END couldn't have evolved further and 2. that Natsu would die if it continued.
Like I told you, all symptoms of the fusion(aka the coma) had ceased when Natsu became END, he wasn't dying, as END Natsu could still fight without issue. There is nothing to suggest that he would turn back into a human without Erza and Lucy's influence, which mean there is nothing that would drop him back into the coma, he would be able to reach Zeref.
As for evolving further, well, I don't exactly buy the further evolution theory, but if I did, the fact that he was able to demonize to that point in the first place is confirmation that regardless of whether the seeds are fusing or not, Natsu can in fact become more of a demon.


Alright, let me break it down.
Why did Zeref give Natsu to Igneel? So that Igneel could make Natsu powerful enough to kill him. Ok, now what exactly is the point in doing that? No matter how strong Igneel made Natsu, Natsu would never be able to kill Zeref, because power isn't what you need to kill Zeref, you need something more.
So, In order for Zeref's plan to make sense, Zeref would have had to have known that Natsu, even as a little boy, had the means to take his immortal life and what would the means be? END. There was literally nothing else special about Natsu at the time. Little boy Natsu already had the qualification to kill Zeref, he just needed the strength, which would come from Igneel.
As for your second part about Zeref wanting Natsu to be himself at the end, just one of Zeref's many contradictions. Zeref wants to see and love Natsu, he also wants Natsu to suffer, he also want Natsu to kill him, he also wants to kill Natsu

So ur saying that end of incomplete and would of kill zeref?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2020 ---

Too many run on sentences.

Was driving at the time

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2020 ---

you said that about his roar, that was after Natsu used Igneel's Fire, then again, you can't trust his words for he is crazy, again, that was for Igneel to help them with their own plans, Zeref cannot be trusted with what he said. HE did when he complimented on Mard Geer almost resurrecting him

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 8, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 8, 2020 ---

Well END was capable of overcoming god powers, Zeref's immortality is god-based, so it makes sense. END was not complete when he fought against Gray, Erza was still injured so she has no durability against that, same with Irene's attacks.

So where would u scale him?

 

[Ramen]

Was driving at the time

You risking it all just for FT?

 

[LaGOAT]

You risking it all just for FT?

Lol nah it was massive traffic at the time so I had time

 

[WoWfan]

what do you mean? Complete END would scale To Zeref

 

[Axiomus]

He was mildly more impressed initially, then the power of the dead got mentioned and he got his hopes up.

Yeah, which just lends credence to power not being what you need to kill Zeref.
So what? Acno's attack was stuffed by Jellal, it happens. As for Zeref blocking with hands, sure, maybe, he didn't do it to base Natsu but I don't see a problem with it, being able to block an attack doesn't mean that attack can't beat you.

Considering Igneel was on his deathbed, I don't rank the power left in Natsu particularly high, it's certainly not %50 Merc tier. As for Merc turning his pillar back to water, that's two spells on Mercs part, Gray was still able to freeze one of Merc's attacks and when he did turn it back it still lost all it's force. As for IgNatsu being able to turn his fire back into fire, sure, I guess, I don't really see the point though, Gray's not gonna need to use IgNatsu's fire as a ramp.

He was having some pretty interesting dreams as I recall. Natsu was literally a demon when he was END, and he didn't care, I don't see how there's doubt. But let's say you're right, none of this means that 1. END couldn't have evolved further and 2. that Natsu would die if it continued.
Like I told you, all symptoms of the fusion(aka the coma) had ceased when Natsu became END, he wasn't dying, as END Natsu could still fight without issue. There is nothing to suggest that he would turn back into a human without Erza and Lucy's influence, which mean there is nothing that would drop him back into the coma, he would be able to reach Zeref.
As for evolving further, well, I don't exactly buy the further evolution theory, but if I did, the fact that he was able to demonize to that point in the first place is confirmation that regardless of whether the seeds are fusing or not, Natsu can in fact become more of a demon.


Alright, let me break it down.
Why did Zeref give Natsu to Igneel? So that Igneel could make Natsu powerful enough to kill him. Ok, now what exactly is the point in doing that? No matter how strong Igneel made Natsu, Natsu would never be able to kill Zeref, because power isn't what you need to kill Zeref, you need something more.
So, In order for Zeref's plan to make sense, Zeref would have had to have known that Natsu, even as a little boy, had the means to take his immortal life and what would the means be? END. There was literally nothing else special about Natsu at the time. Little boy Natsu already had the qualification to kill Zeref, he just needed the strength, which would come from Igneel.
As for your second part about Zeref wanting Natsu to be himself at the end, just one of Zeref's many contradictions. Zeref wants to see and love Natsu, he also wants Natsu to suffer, he also want Natsu to kill him, he also wants to kill Natsu

He said he was truly impressed after taking the FDK finisher.

You need both power and a means of countering his immortality. Again, I'm not sure I buy that END has either. Igneel's power could counter Zeref's immortality by being the power of the dead, yet still needed to have a degree of raw power to actually get the job done. The attack that you showed of Natsu hitting Zeref pretty much did nothing. Even if I grant you that END's attack can do exactly that, Zeref would simply tank it.

IgNatsu may not be stronger than Mercphobia, but the finisher Natsu used was imo stronger than an individual water pillar. Remember, Mercphobia was spamming those water pillars all over the city, so Gray really only froze a portion of Mercphobia's attack. I very much doubt Gray could have frozen Natsu's FDK finisher in the first place.

He was dying even before having those dreams. Just because Natsu could move when he was END doesn't mean his seeds weren't trying to fuse and he wasn't dying. He was simply moving despite the seeds killing him because of the emotions he felt over Lucy's death kept him going. When those emotions vanished, he lost the boost that kept him going and went back into a coma. This is pretty much the same the same way Gray was moving despite having been stabbed earlier.

We don't actually know if raw power isn't enough to kill Zeref. To be honest, it doesn't matter. What matters here is what Zeref thought 400 years ago. We the fans can assume no amount of raw power could kill Zeref after seeing him tank so many OP attacks, but Zeref couldn't have known that 400 years ago. Zeref went along with Igneel's plan because he hoped Natsu to be strong enough after Igneel trained him. I'm still not seeing where END's power factors into all of this. Zeref made no attempts to release END's power. He literally told Natsu that he would have the option of destroying him, and hoped that he will. If END's power was instrumental to his plan, he would have at least made moves to awaken END.

 

[WoWfan]

well after Savage Flames, it is proven that raw power alone definitely isn't enough

 

[LaGOAT]

what do you mean? Complete END would scale To Zeref

End that fought gray

 

[WoWfan]

End that fought gray

Incomplete END would scale to Demon Gray

 

[Seven777]

So ur saying that end of incomplete and would of kill zeref?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2020 ---

Was driving at the time

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2020 ---

So where would u scale him?

I'm saying END could kill Zeref. Whether or not it was incomplete doesn't matter a whole lot to me.

He said he was truly impressed after taking the FDK finisher.

You need both power and a means of countering his immortality. Again, I'm not sure I buy that END has either. Igneel's power could counter Zeref's immortality by being the power of the dead, yet still needed to have a degree of raw power to actually get the job done. The attack that you showed of Natsu hitting Zeref pretty much did nothing. Even if I grant you that END's attack can do exactly that, Zeref would simply tank it.

IgNatsu may not be stronger than Mercphobia, but the finisher Natsu used was imo stronger than an individual water pillar. Remember, Mercphobia was spamming those water pillars all over the city, so Gray really only froze a portion of Mercphobia's attack. I very much doubt Gray could have frozen Natsu's FDK finisher in the first place.

He was dying even before having those dreams. Just because Natsu could move when he was END doesn't mean his seeds weren't trying to fuse and he wasn't dying. He was simply moving despite the seeds killing him because of the emotions he felt over Lucy's death kept him going. When those emotions vanished, he lost the boost that kept him going and went back into a coma. This is pretty much the same the same way Gray was moving despite having been stabbed earlier.

We don't actually know if raw power isn't enough to kill Zeref. To be honest, it doesn't matter. What matters here is what Zeref thought 400 years ago. We the fans can assume no amount of raw power could kill Zeref after seeing him tank so many OP attacks, but Zeref couldn't have known that 400 years ago. Zeref went along with Igneel's plan because he hoped Natsu to be strong enough after Igneel trained him. I'm still not seeing where END's power factors into all of this. Zeref made no attempts to release END's power. He literally told Natsu that he would have the option of destroying him, and hoped that he will. If END's power was instrumental to his plan, he would have at least made moves to awaken END.

Sure, that was after he figured out it was the power of the dead.

Sure, END needs the raw power too, and imo it has it. Base Natsu alone exhausted Zeref, he pushed him further than IgNatsu did before he broke out FDK, END should be able to do the same and more.

True, but Merc is also far superior to IgNatsu, he's in a totally different league. As for Gray freezing IgNatsu's attack, meh, given what Jellal could do it seems doable. Even if he can't, that's fine, I don't actually think ENDs attacks were on the level of IgNatsu's final one anyway.

And he wasn't getting weaker in the slightest. So even if what you say it true, and his emotions over Lucy's death were what was keeping him going(despite the fact that we have an actual transformation explaining why he could move), without Lucy's return those emotions weren't going anywhere, and Natsu would have continued on as END with them pushing him forward until Zeref's death. And who knows. continuing on that path may well have been the awaited choice, and crumbled the Dragon Seed

We do, Acno can't do it, Igneel can't do it, the two strongest characters in the series and they can't do it. If raw power was what it takes to beat Zeref, everyone above IgNatsu could kill him.
Zeref could have known that 400 years ago, because he had access to the second strongest character in history to test it, Igneel. There was literally no reason to choose Natsu as his killer, or to think that Natsu could even become his killer, aside from the fact that he was END.
You don't know that Zeref didn't attempt to awaken END, in fact I can think of several instances where Zeref's actions seemed intentionally madeto awaken END, eg. wanting to drop Makarov's rotting carcass at Natsu's feet, not exactly what you'd expect from someone who'd rather see Natsu than END, is it?
As for what he told him in Tartaros, was likely his emotions getting in the way of his goals once again. Zeref will abandon the chance to relive his life with kid Natsu, just to have an extended moment with current Natsu.

 

[Axiomus]

I'm saying END could kill Zeref. Whether or not it was incomplete doesn't matter a whole lot to me.

Sure, that was after he figured out it was the power of the dead.

Sure, END needs the raw power too, and imo it has it. Base Natsu alone exhausted Zeref, he pushed him further than IgNatsu did before he broke out FDK, END should be able to do the same and more.

True, but Merc is also far superior to IgNatsu, he's in a totally different league. As for Gray freezing IgNatsu's attack, meh, given what Jellal could do it seems doable. Even if he can't, that's fine, I don't actually think ENDs attacks were on the level of IgNatsu's final one anyway.

And he wasn't getting weaker in the slightest. So even if what you say it true, and his emotions over Lucy's death were what was keeping him going(despite the fact that we have an actual transformation explaining why he could move), without Lucy's return those emotions weren't going anywhere, and Natsu would have continued on as END with them pushing him forward until Zeref's death. And who knows. continuing on that path may well have been the awaited choice, and crumbled the Dragon Seed

We do, Acno can't do it, Igneel can't do it, the two strongest characters in the series and they can't do it. If raw power was what it takes to beat Zeref, everyone above IgNatsu could kill him.
Zeref could have known that 400 years ago, because he had access to the second strongest character in history to test it, Igneel. There was literally no reason to choose Natsu as his killer, or to think that Natsu could even become his killer, aside from the fact that he was END.
You don't know that Zeref didn't attempt to awaken END, in fact I can think of several instances where Zeref's actions seemed intentionally madeto awaken END, eg. wanting to drop Makarov's rotting carcass at Natsu's feet, not exactly what you'd expect from someone who'd rather see Natsu than END, is it?
As for what he told him in Tartaros, was likely his emotions getting in the way of his goals once again. Zeref will abandon the chance to relive his life with kid Natsu, just to have an extended moment with current Natsu.

Why would being the power of the dead have any relevance to how impressive he finds Igneel's power to be? There's no shortage of characters who can use the power of the dead. It's not at all rare. Some of the demons he created even have the power of the dead, and they still can't kill him.

Zeref looked fine to me. Base Natsu was losing against Zeref.

He had POF driving him when he thought Lucy was dead, but the seeds were still going to eventually fuse and kill him. There would have been a point where the boost from his emotions wouldn't be able to sustain him. He'd have to kill Zeref before that happens. If you don't believe END's transformation would progressively get stronger, then I struggle to see how he would have beaten Zeref. For all we know, he would have never gotten past Gray.

There can be characters stronger than Acno and Igneel. Again, if END was at all part of Zeref's plan, then we would have seen Zeref make moves to awaken it. He didn't. And infact, he wished for the opposite.

 

[WoWfan]

Don’t worry, it was progressing, even if he chose to become a demon, he would be at his peak then as END. He wanted END to awaken, but did not do so as it would reveal himself to Tartaros and it would be mean to just appear out of the blue

 

[LaGOAT]

Incomplete END would scale to Demon Gray

which is?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 10, 2020 ---

I'm saying END could kill Zeref. Whether or not it was incomplete doesn't matter a whole lot to me.

Sure, that was after he figured out it was the power of the dead.

Sure, END needs the raw power too, and imo it has it. Base Natsu alone exhausted Zeref, he pushed him further than IgNatsu did before he broke out FDK, END should be able to do the same and more.

True, but Merc is also far superior to IgNatsu, he's in a totally different league. As for Gray freezing IgNatsu's attack, meh, given what Jellal could do it seems doable. Even if he can't, that's fine, I don't actually think ENDs attacks were on the level of IgNatsu's final one anyway.

And he wasn't getting weaker in the slightest. So even if what you say it true, and his emotions over Lucy's death were what was keeping him going(despite the fact that we have an actual transformation explaining why he could move), without Lucy's return those emotions weren't going anywhere, and Natsu would have continued on as END with them pushing him forward until Zeref's death. And who knows. continuing on that path may well have been the awaited choice, and crumbled the Dragon Seed

We do, Acno can't do it, Igneel can't do it, the two strongest characters in the series and they can't do it. If raw power was what it takes to beat Zeref, everyone above IgNatsu could kill him.
Zeref could have known that 400 years ago, because he had access to the second strongest character in history to test it, Igneel. There was literally no reason to choose Natsu as his killer, or to think that Natsu could even become his killer, aside from the fact that he was END.
You don't know that Zeref didn't attempt to awaken END, in fact I can think of several instances where Zeref's actions seemed intentionally madeto awaken END, eg. wanting to drop Makarov's rotting carcass at Natsu's feet, not exactly what you'd expect from someone who'd rather see Natsu than END, is it?
As for what he told him in Tartaros, was likely his emotions getting in the way of his goals once again. Zeref will abandon the chance to relive his life with kid Natsu, just to have an extended moment with current Natsu.

Not by feats he can’t down gray nor erza tho

 

[WoWfan]

Which is what?

 

[LaGOAT]

What would u scale gray dc wise?

 

[Ramen]

What would u scale gray dc wise?

Like, multi-city level at the most.

Lol I've seen someone scale him to planetary-star level DC.

 

[WoWfan]

Demon Gray Scales to Invel who scales to Spriggans who are country level

 

[LaGOAT]

Demon Gray Scales to Invel who scales to Spriggans who are country level

Ok I’ll remember that

 

[Axiomus]

There's still no proof that END, even at full transformation, can kill Zeref. Natsu never chose to be a demon. Zeref never wanted to face Natsu as a demon either. He never said that he supported Tartaros. Just that he wouldn't show himself because they were going through so much trouble to meet him. He was belittling Tartaros, not supporting them.