Fantasy Jellal and Laxus vs Irene

[Axiomus]

dont know about properties of dragon. but there is no mention of ds seal erza hitting harder than just normal erza (not against a dragon)

That's what dragon slaying magic is. You're enchanting your body with the properties of a dragon. Doesn't the dragon slaying seal provide Erza that?

 

[sharkai]

That's what dragon slaying magic is. You're enchanting your body with the properties of a dragon. Doesn't the dragon slaying seal provide Erza that?

dont know. i dont think erza is gonna get scales though. atleast from this seal. most likely just a way to bypass dragon immunity to magic

 

[Seven777]

i dont think so.
sema is different from other moves. it is super slow. its not whether koyoka could block armudura. erza could still move around, use her speed and hit her with armudura. no minerva didnt know much about kagura. she figured it out after that nuke.
jellal altaris far weaker than sema, i dont know about abyss breaker, but its most likely weaker too. sema is slow. he is not restricting jura like minerva was, or it cant move fast and change direction and reused again if blocked like armudura can
sema is just a nuke, which takes its time.

mishma fuks up sure, but if emotion is involved, things normally go smoothly.
there is another explanation, maybe my hypothesis is correct. weaker characters cant stop stronger characters strongest moves (weak moves sure). blocking requires same level of effort as attacking. thus jellal could take out jura, if jura was slightly weaker than jellal by sema

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2020 ---

dont know about properties of dragon. but there is no mention of ds seal erza hitting harder than just normal erza (not against a dragon)

Yes, Sema is pretty slow, maybe Jellal was planning on using Meteor on Jura while he waited for it to fall, idk, but it doesn't really matter, because at the end of the day despite their supposedly superior speed, ever single one of those other attacks I listed were still broken.
Minerva knew plenty about Kagura, her skirmish with her and Erza was about as serious as Jellals was with Jura, in fact the girls incurred more injuries than either Jellal or Jura did.
Doesn't matter if Altaris is weaker than Sema, Grand Chariot is too, Jellal still uses it more than anything else. Sema being stopped isn't any bigger a deal than one of Natsu's attacks being stopped, Jellal can always just use something else and win by accumulating damage.

Not an option, otherwise Erza wouldn't have been able to destroy Deus Sema since we know she's weaker. Besides, i've already given you multiple examples of weaker characters stopping attacks from stronger characters. If you want to argue that sometimes weaker characters can't do it, then sure, that's fine, but they can do it, just look at Wendy, just look at Erza.

 

[Axiomus]

dont know. i dont think erza is gonna get scales though. atleast from this seal. most likely just a way to bypass dragon immunity to magic

Well scales only come from dragon force, or if you develop a dragon seed. Dragons don't have an immunity to magic. Their scales are just really hard to break if you don't have dragon slaying magic.

 

[sharkai]

Well scales only come from dragon force, or if you develop a dragon seed. Dragons don't have an immunity to magic. Their scales are just really hard to break if you don't have dragon slaying magic.

are you implying gmg wendy hits harder than gmg jura?

 

[Axiomus]

are you implying gmg wendy hits harder than gmg jura?

No. I'm saying dragon slaying magic allows you to damage dragon scales with far greater ease than without. Without dragon slaying magic, it's easier to smash Irene's meteor than to pierce a dragon scales. This has nothing to do with being resistant to magic though. Dragons are only resistant to magic of their own element.

 

[sharkai]

No. I'm saying dragon slaying magic allows you to damage dragon scales with far greater ease than without. Without dragon slaying magic, it's easier to smash Irene's meteor than to pierce a dragon scales. This has nothing to do with being resistant to magic though. Dragons are only resistant to magic of their own element.

but you are saying dragon scale are resistant to magic, that is why ds can harm them. otherwise you are saying gmg wendy hits harder than gmg jura.
or ds has some inherent ability to hurt dragon scales, thus ds seal not a power up

 

[Axiomus]

but you are saying dragon scale are resistant to magic, that is why ds can harm them. otherwise you are saying gmg wendy hits harder than gmg jura.
or ds has some inherent ability to hurt dragon scales, thus ds seal not a power up

I'm not. Dragon scales weren't said to be resistant to magic. Dragon slaying magic just makes it far easier to damage dragon scales. GMG Wendy doesn't hit harder than Jura.

This is actually irrelevant to whether or not DS seal is a power-up. The DS seal is a power-up because it enchants the user with the properties of a dragon slayer....and a dragon slayer gets their ability to harm dragons by taking on the properties of a dragon. Somewhere in all of this, the dragon slaying seal has to be giving Erza's magic the properties of a dragon. Which would be a power-up.

 

[sharkai]

I'm not. Dragon scales weren't said to be resistant to magic. Dragon slaying magic just makes it far easier to damage dragon scales. GMG Wendy doesn't hit harder than Jura.

This is actually irrelevant to whether or not DS seal is a power-up. The DS seal is a power-up because it enchants the user with the properties of a dragon slayer....and a dragon slayer gets their ability to harm dragons by taking on the properties of a dragon. Somewhere in all of this, the dragon slaying seal has to be giving Erza's magic the properties of a dragon. Which would be a power-up.

i cant follow
above you are saying ds is not stronger, it just helps against dragon scale
and then you are saying its a power up?

 

[Axiomus]

i cant follow
above you are saying ds is not stronger, it just helps against dragon scale
and then you are saying its a power up?

DS doesn't necessarily make you stronger than a dragon. It just the only thing that's effective against dragon scales. Having the power of a dragon is a power-up compared to not having it. You look at the 2nd gens who hide their dragon slaying powers....and they get noticeably stronger when they activate it. Isn't Erza kind of just doing the same thing?

Besides you would have to ask yourself why Erza would even use the dragon slaying seal against Kyria or Laxus if it doesn't provide a boost. It's not like she'll get a slayer advantage against them. Or if she does have a slayer advantage, then isn't this something to factor in when considering how she stacks up to Laxus overall?

 

[sharkai]

DS doesn't necessarily make you stronger than a dragon. It just the only thing that's effective against dragon scales. Having the power of a dragon is a power-up compared to not having it. You look at the 2nd gens who hide their dragon slaying powers....and they get noticeably stronger when they activate it. Isn't Erza kind of just doing the same thing?

Besides you would have to ask yourself why Erza would even use the dragon slaying seal against Kyria or Laxus if it doesn't provide a boost. It's not like she'll get a slayer advantage against them. Or if she does have a slayer advantage, then isn't this something to factor in when considering how she stacks up to Laxus overall?

the manga never showed the improvement, like it showed for laxus and cobra. so its definitely not that

your second point is valid. i just assummed it had something to do with weilding ds swords or something. but it could be slight boost, like laxus was getting from his own blood, though maybe not that much, because again it is not mentioned in the manga

 

[Biri Biri]

Is this not you?

By your logic everything I stated was spade for spade. Your logic dictates that X is stronger than Y bcs X knocked out A while Y failed to and we just ignore everything else in the manga that says otherwise.

Yes, that was me. The examples you listed in your previous post were clearly bullshit. I made an observation that despite being engulfed in the explosion from Irene's attacks, both Wendy and Erza remain unwounded. Wendy only succumbed to the injuries that Irene self-inflicted on Wendy's body after she possessed it. While Erza was struck directly by Irene's attacks on multiple occasions, and they always failed to keep her down. A claw swipe from Irene in her dragon form was what put Erza down. Briefly. Before Erza got up to destroy Irene's strongest enchantment, cut her back down to her human form, and still had enough in her tank to continue attacking her. Irene's enchantments accomplished very little and their feats are evidently lackluster, especially compared to her physical strength whilst in her dragon form.

I thought this was simple and straight to the point. Apparently not. Rather than refuting my point of why Irene's enchantments failed to inflict any significant wound on Erza and Wendy, you brought up some unrelated fights with a different set of context and outcomes there. That's the literal definition of a strawman argument. Your response was that if Irene's enchantments are not regarded as strong because they couldn't injure Erza or Wendy, then that makes Acno's strength poor too because he didn't KO the same foe in Wendy. This premise is entirely wrong, because Acno's fight had unique circumstances to it. Acno had no choice but to keep the dragon slayers alive in order to stabilise his power due to absorbing so much magical energy after consuming the ravines of time. Irene could not KO Wendy, or Erza for that matter. Acno did not KO Wendy and the other DS because he needed them to be kept alive.

As for your Neinhart/August comparison base on their respective performances against Jellal. Yes, you are right that Neinhart was capable of knocking out Jellal. However, the context of that happening was due to Jellal willingly jumping right in to the blast to shield Kagura, somebody whom he felt he was indebted to due to his guilt for killing her brother. Neinhart was later destroyed by Jellal's GC. August ran rings around Jellal and all of OS, while remaining unscathed. He had Jellal admitting disbelief over his strength, whilst his head was beneath August's foot eating sand. How can you arrive to the conclusion that Neinhart's attacks were more impressive than August's is lol

I also want to point out that your so call "evidence" that Irene has less attack power than Kiria is blatantly false as Irene never attacked Wendy while in her own body in the first place.

Wrong.

After Irene found out from Wendy that transformation brought upon by the dragon seed could be stopped in the form of antibodies while the parent dragons resided within the DS, Irene flew into a rage and attacked both Erza and Wendy who were standing right in front of her. They were unharmed, and Wendy negated Irene's countermeasure with her own, allowing Erza to deliver a blow to Irene's head which saw her bleed profusely.

Spoiler

Her attacks bore no fruits, and her enchantments were thwarted. Her durability couldn't withstand a sword strike from Erza. She was being outclassed in more than one area. It is what it is.

His strongest attack is still the same one he bested Wall with lol. Nothing of an increase in MP or power was noted from Erza. It is just that his lightning gets more powerful with Red Lightning. He also stated he just got the ability to use RL back lol. A gun is a gun. Just bcs y'know how to shoot a gun doesn't mean the gun is stronger than it usually is lol. The same is with RL, just bcs he got better at using it does not mean it is stronger than before. It just means he can use it freely unlike when he used it by chance.

Like you said, Laxus' lightning gets more powerful with red lightning. The very first time he discovered it, it was capable of killing a Spriggan in one hit. As per your gun analogy … yes, a gun is still a gun. If all components of the gun remain the same, then the gun itself doesn't become any more powerful. However, if you practice or train with it, you should definitely become more lethal and dangerous with it. I'm not sure if you have been to a firing range, but with familiarization and technical handling of a firearm, you gradually develop greater precision, accuracy, and quicker reloading/firing time as you become more adept and comfortable with the whole process.

Magic is essentially the same. A skilled user is always going to be more adept at using the same magic as an unrefined user. In a sense, the user becomes more powerful as they develop greater mastery at wielding the magic. That's how Laxus became stronger. Natsu grew stronger after having lightning flame dragon. Gajeel grew stronger after having iron shadow DS. Gray grew stronger after having ice devil slayer. Sting grew stronger after having white shadow DS. Given the improvement we have seen Laxus made in the 100YQ, he had become stronger too.

Erza was jobbing which something she is infamous for in the manga. Same thing with Kagura who beat up her fodder armors then got oneshotted by Erza lol. Kiria already admitted she was inferior to Erza when she was jaw dropped and in awe of her power against Laxus lol. Also Erza's fodder armor + enchanted sword is still fodder to her upper class magic. She did not need any of her enchantmented weaponry to best Kiria either as seen when matched Red Lightning with basic Heaven's Wheel swords lol. Erza didn't become more powerful either over the 100YQ. Laxus stated he could only down her with RL and that she was holding back still while he was using RL. Erza would oneshot Kiria the same as Laxus did if she was remotely serious instead of jobbing.

Again, that's wrong. Erza was serious against Kyria. Her character had always been serious. A little too much at times. Just because Erza has a tendency to hold back at the start to assess the strength of her foe, that doesn't mean she isn't serious. This applies to almost all the characters in the series. We rarely see somebody going all out from the beginning. Especially not team Natsu. Erza did not go all out against Laxus early in their fight. However, she was clearly giving her absolute best at the end. She had to have done so, otherwise it makes zero sense why she exhausted all her magic power. It's important to note that Erza never ran out of magic in her fight with Irene. Not only did Erza exhausted all her mp and fainted for a dozen chapters after fighting Laxus, she was too hurt to even stand after she woke. During this time, Laxus was running around with Erza on his back, protecting her and fighting off creations by Wolfen. There is a stark difference to their condition.

Spoiler

How was I being pretentious for pointing out a fact? No one uses Erza's feat against Acno at all yet y'all run to Jellal's bcs he has zero feats that are worth salt. Also I see no one using Brandish stabbing August or BSS Mira dodging RoT Dragon Acno as legitimate feats either. Jellal needed help from Ultear and used his second strongest spell (that was matched by basic Base Natsu punches) to beat Gears. Add to the fact he was beat up prior to the hax coming into play. Jellal failed to push Acno and needed Christina to bail him out. He failed physically to harm anyone significantly with meteor magic so I think it's quite hilarious you think he could push someone as physically powerful as Acno back with his strongest spell let alone with just meteor lmao. Jellal couldn't distract Irene even if he used all his magic power bcs he is fodder to the people that are fodder to her. Jellal and Laxus would be dead wizards before they could even fire off a spell lol.

Because they are not true.

Jellal needed a mindset shift in his fight with Gears. That was all he needed, which Ultear provided through a pep talk. Ultear never intervened in the fight. Despite his magic being eaten, Jellal was able to push Acno for a bit of distance before he was caught in Acno's clutches. Notice how Acno was grimacing in the bottom right panel, then the sfx in the bottom left when he was being moved in the air. Dragon Irene does not have the ability to suck away Jellal's magic like Acno does, which was the biggest factor why Jellal couldn't succeed. Jellal completely trounced Natsu with meteor in ToH, the same Natsu who could hold his own against base Laxus in BoFT. It required Natsu finally achieving dragon force for the first time to defeat Jellal.

Spoiler

 

[Lucy>Wendy&Elfman]

X793 Jellal and Laxus combined >>>>>>>>>>>> Buffed X792 Erza = Human Irene. Boys stomps R1.

Dragon Irene got one-shotted by Erza with her sword enchanted with DS Magic so Laxus would do it as well, even more easier than Erza lol.

 

[LaGOAT]

Irene struggled to beat Wendy and erza.
Laxus and jellal stomps lol

 

[Crimson Ice]

Oh yeah, Laxus is taking this solo.

 

[grey matter]

If this is x792 versions of Laxus and Jellal, she might put up a fight. But still lose.

x793 versions of Laxus/Jellal destroy Eileen. Either solo her human form. Laxus solo her dragon form

 

[Sevently]

Current ? Duo mid-diff

 

[ShaLIGHTNING]

Current ? Duo mid-diff

Even their x792 selves should mid-diff.

 

[Vex_Haid]

the jellal and laxus wank... omfg

add gildarts and this team isn't even beating dimaria or larcade, let alone irene, in fact they prob not even beating serena, serena eats laxus's red lightning and proceeds to solo

erza and wendys fight was plot against irene, literally just one of those berserkers sent erza flying back, even ajeel was playing around with erza, i guess that ajeel can beat irene now?

also even if erza didn't have plot, that would just mean that erza>>>>>laxus and jelllal duo. irene stomps and go cry about it

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2021 ---

Even their x792 selves should mid-diff.

jellal: got one shot by neinhart and saved by kagura

laxus: beated a jobbing wall high diff

 

[grey matter]

jellal: got one shot by neinhart and saved by kagura

laxus: beated a jobbing wall high diff

Jellal took near to no damage from Neinhart's attack, and got KO'd because of ingesting water from the force with which he drowned.
This is why he got back up as good as new, with no injuries, as soon as Kagura sucked out water from him.
A real one shot is what Jellal did to Neinhart, the dude was injured and bloodied up, and was KO'd from damage alone, rather than because of drowning.


The fact that Wahl needed two handicaps on Laxus to compete speaks for itself. Without which Laxus would've low diff'd Wahl from the getgo.
He was also about to one shot or at least severely injure Ajeel in the beginning of the arc