Discussion Eustass Kid's Level

[really_jonny]

Consider shown and narrative. What level do you believe he is at? Admiral/YC1 level for the narrative? By the powers and physical abilities shown, in true he is overrated on the same level or below characters like Cracker and Doflamingo? Despite the narrative he is as recognized as Law in defeating Big Mom, did he just take advantage and Law was much more important?

In the future, do you see him with the potential to be a Yonko?

 

[catagon87]

The dude has a literal rail-gun at his disposal, which short of those with durability similar to Big Mom, would obliterate anyone. When you pair it with his awakened polarity-shift and ability to "stick" people to objects, then he can probably defeat most fighters, including Doflamingo and Cracker.

He'd probably struggle against someone with future sight like Katakuri, as they'd be able to see his plan with awakening and mitigate it, but on opponents without advanced COO like Cracker and Doflamingo, they would probably get destroyed. With Katakuri it'd be hard for Kidd to get off any hits as his special paramecia properties mitigate that when combined with Future Sight.

Admiral-wise, if we're going off of actual physics, then Kizaru would be a bad match up for him as light is not affected by magnetism AFAIK.
Fujitora's gravity against Kidd's magnetism would be interesting.
We know nothing about Greenbull other than he doesn't eat.

Akainu would obviously defeat Kidd.

It's hard to say though. This is why I think yonko commander levels are a little dumb. Luffy barely defeated Cracker and Katakuri then got one-shot by Kaido. Zoro defeated King, and Sanji defeated Queen. So I'm not even really sure what a "YC1" is these days because I can't imagine King is that much stronger than Katakuri, but the rock-paper-scissors situation of the battles in their current order indicates that King would be stronger than Katakuri, based on the former being defeated so quickly by Zoro. I think YC strength is just all over the place and he makes commanders as strong as they need to be at that point in time.

 

[baditz]

So far YC1 level speciality,,
Katakuri dodge,,
King hard body,,
Marco healing,,

For what i see from Kidd do he at YC1 level, but Oda push him beyond YC1, for sure he not admiral n Yonko level.

 

[grey matter]

Above characters like King and Katakuri.

Around as strong as Marco I say, borderline admiral tier but would lose to all admirals in a high-extreme diff IMO

 

[Zmsp]

He's exactly what he's been portrayed as: one of the most important pirates of this new generation.

He has Conqueror's Haki. He's part of the captain trifecta that's taking over (Luffy, Law and Kid). He defeated an Emperor, together with Law... so he's obviously not at that level yet, but he's bound to be eventually. Haki seems too important if you want to be at the pinnacle, and his doesn't seem quite there yet.

His ability is the most important and interesting thing to theorize about. Both Luffy and Law have tremendously important abilities with almost unequivocal importance in the past, so he seems a bit left out in that regard. Still, if you take into account things like the magnetic field of islands in the series, or even the grand line being a bunch of islands artificially put together, his ability might be very important indeed, considering how much attention he's starting to get.

 

[really_jonny]

Majority of Kid votes as already being at the level of an Admiral. You gentlemens are making me very happy.

 

[Fox666]

There's no good option.

If Kaido could defeat the Scabbards, then Big Mom could also defeat multiple commander-level characters. Kid and Law are way above any Yonko commander.

However, there's no way she could fight against 2 Admirals. She would at best have a small advantage against 1.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

Fake news. Eustass Kid doesn't even have Haki.

Lol j/k. His feats are impressive. I put him between YC1 and Yonkou. He is definitely stronger than a YC1. Admiral level sounds about right.

 

[FetherMan]

How come Oda has never drawn Kidd using Armament Haki…?.

 

[XXGenesis]

Above characters like King and Katakuri.

Around as strong as Marco I say, borderline admiral tier but would lose to all admirals in a high-extreme diff IMO

Strongly Agree.

 

[Nie Li]

Judging by the comments most of you are going to disagree with me on this one, but I've still got to be honest here.

I voted YC1 but I feel I was being generous. I haven't been impressed by any of his individual feats when compared to them or the rest of the Supernova involved in the raid other than enduring hits from Big Mom. His awakening was very underwhelming, too.

Oda wants to convey that he's similar to Law in status, but I'm not convinced that he's up there by anything he does. Even if the story is trying to sell me that he's on a different level being one of the heads of the new generation, going by what I've seen him actually do, I really think he'd likely lose to Katakuri even though he would probably last a while.

His only redeemable success was finally breaking Big Mom's arms (although for nothing) after repeatedly hitting her with big and straightforward finishing moves that he threw after Law, also repeatedly, softened her up. His damage output may well be YC1 but the rest of his capabilities don't seem to catch up to that at all... and this is all still after Kidd had the time to run through Onigashima gathering metal for half an hour before going for the rooftop. That's something that he's entitled to do but that should be taken into consideration: he depends a lot on that prep time and on where the fight takes place, unlike the other top tiers (any other YC1 and above character) who are all very adaptable. He should probably solve that by always carrying a lot of metal near him... kinda like Gaara with his sand.

Narratively he's above/around YC1, so I guess that solidifies my vote despite struggling with his showings.

Despite the narrative he is as recognized as Law in defeating Big Mom, did he just take advantage and Law was much more important?

Yes. Law wouldn't have won on his own, but Kidd could probably have been substituted with Sanji in the 2vs1 (not in the roof fight. Kidd was instrumental in throwing her off but that was not because of his "strength" but because of his specific skillset.

In the future, do you see him with the potential to be a Yonko?

And yes. Narrative beats anything in the end. All the characters just jump powertiers when it's due time.

How come Oda has never drawn Kidd using Armament Haki…?.

He seemed to use armament on the horns of his... bull.

Spoiler

 

[really_jonny]

and this is all still after Kidd had the time to run through Onigashima gathering metal for half an hour before going for the rooftop. That's something that he's entitled to do but that should be taken into consideration: he depends a lot on that prep time and on where the fight takes place, unlike the other top tiers (any other YC1 and above character) who are all very adaptable. He should probably solve that by always carrying a lot of metal near him... kinda like Gaara with his sand.

That is true. I like to do imaginative exercises about the work. Thinking of a Kid Yonko in the future, maybe he'll make Queen of his crew, make an alliance with Germa, and get some technology that works like those capsules from Capsule Corporation from Dragon Ball, in case he would store metal. Anyway, he definitely needs it, but I don't think Oda will do it.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2022, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2022 ---

but Kidd could probably have been substituted with Sanji in the 2vs1

No, because the BM was still whole and would continue in the fight for a long time, as she can heal herself using her own soul. That electromagnetic laser cannon, immobilized her and sank her out of Onigashima, and must have dealt a lot of damage constantly, seeing BM's facial expression when the laser hit her. If the laser didn't immobilize her, it would be the end.

 

[grey matter]

Judging by the comments most of you are going to disagree with me on this one, but I've still got to be honest here.

I voted YC1 but I feel I was being generous. I haven't been impressed by any of his individual feats when compared to them or the rest of the Supernova involved in the raid other than enduring hits from Big Mom. His awakening was very underwhelming, too.

Oda wants to convey that he's similar to Law in status, but I'm not convinced that he's up there by anything he does. Even if the story is trying to sell me that he's on a different level being one of the heads of the new generation, going by what I've seen him actually do, I really think he'd likely lose to Katakuri even though he would probably last a while.

His only redeemable success was finally breaking Big Mom's arms (although for nothing) after repeatedly hitting her with big and straightforward finishing moves that he threw after Law, also repeatedly, softened her up. His damage output may well be YC1 but the rest of his capabilities don't seem to catch up to that at all... and this is all still after Kidd had the time to run through Onigashima gathering metal for half an hour before going for the rooftop. That's something that he's entitled to do but that should be taken into consideration: he depends a lot on that prep time and on where the fight takes place, unlike the other top tiers (any other YC1 and above character) who are all very adaptable. He should probably solve that by always carrying a lot of metal near him... kinda like Gaara with his sand.

Narratively he's above/around YC1, so I guess that solidifies my vote despite struggling with his showings.


Yes. Law wouldn't have won on his own, but Kidd could probably have been substituted with Sanji in the 2vs1 (not in the roof fight. Kidd was instrumental in throwing her off but that was not because of his "strength" but because of his specific skillset.


And yes. Narrative beats anything in the end. All the characters just jump powertiers when it's due time.


He seemed to use armament on the horns of his... bull.

Spoiler

We really have to just look at author intent and portrayal (i.e narrative) here. Cause authors can be faulty at times with his feats, go overboard, have contradictory feats etc.

If mean, if I want to just use feats, I'll say Kaido can one shot Katakuri within a second, considering Kaido blitz and one shot beginning of Wano G4 Luffy, who is around same level as Katakuri in stats.
So, Kid and Law, who are very much capable of tanking attacks from Kaido and BM >>> Katakuri, if we just use this feat without giving it second thoughts (like how characters weaker than him tanked attacks from Kaido and BM, hence contradictory feats).

Kid has been portrayed as someone who can somewhat compete with BM in brute stats (the 2v1 against BM was basically him doing most of the combat, with Law using openings to deal good damage to her).
He, along with Luffy and Law, has been portrayed as one of the three captains to take over the next gen.
He has been able to deal damage to BM, break her bones, use attacks strong enough to make her scream in pain and spit blood etc. To consider him on or below Katakuri/King is just plain wrong IMO.

 

[HereNThere]

We really have to just look at author intent and portrayal (i.e narrative) here.

This sums it up nicely. Kidd may have not had the flash and pizazz of Law, but he was still an integral part of the fight. The main purpose of which was to demonstrate that Luffy's two main rivals as Captains had the willpower and strength to not only go toe to toe with a Yonkou, but come out on top. Feats take a backseat to the actual thematic reasoning behind that fight. The chapter they had her on the ropes is literally titled "Top Billing".

Kidd, Law, and Zoro are basically on the cusp of reaching the "Summit", meaning they are close to becoming individuals who are comparable to Yonkou/Admirals or other big names in their world. They are a step or two behind Luffy, who's already reached that point, but they should be closing the gap really soon.

I also think readers need to realize that as we get to the higher echelons of combatants, not everyone is going to fit neatly into our fanmade tiers. Hell, I'll go as far to say as most of the characters at the top will be decently around the same level and things are likely more nebulous ranking wise as we go higher. Even things like YC1/2/3 labels are losing their point as people keep adding subvariations to them to fit their sense of power scaling, plus and minuses, making everything more muddled than it needs to be. We've gotten to the point where there are people calling characters "low tier Yonkou level" or "average Yonkou level" and that makes no sense to me.

 

[FetherMan]

Judging by the comments most of you are going to disagree with me on this one, but I've still got to be honest here.

I voted YC1 but I feel I was being generous. I haven't been impressed by any of his individual feats when compared to them or the rest of the Supernova involved in the raid other than enduring hits from Big Mom. His awakening was very underwhelming, too.

Oda wants to convey that he's similar to Law in status, but I'm not convinced that he's up there by anything he does. Even if the story is trying to sell me that he's on a different level being one of the heads of the new generation, going by what I've seen him actually do, I really think he'd likely lose to Katakuri even though he would probably last a while.

His only redeemable success was finally breaking Big Mom's arms (although for nothing) after repeatedly hitting her with big and straightforward finishing moves that he threw after Law, also repeatedly, softened her up. His damage output may well be YC1 but the rest of his capabilities don't seem to catch up to that at all... and this is all still after Kidd had the time to run through Onigashima gathering metal for half an hour before going for the rooftop. That's something that he's entitled to do but that should be taken into consideration: he depends a lot on that prep time and on where the fight takes place, unlike the other top tiers (any other YC1 and above character) who are all very adaptable. He should probably solve that by always carrying a lot of metal near him... kinda like Gaara with his sand.

Narratively he's above/around YC1, so I guess that solidifies my vote despite struggling with his showings.


Yes. Law wouldn't have won on his own, but Kidd could probably have been substituted with Sanji in the 2vs1 (not in the roof fight. Kidd was instrumental in throwing her off but that was not because of his "strength" but because of his specific skillset.


And yes. Narrative beats anything in the end. All the characters just jump powertiers when it's due time.


He seemed to use armament on the horns of his... bull.

Spoiler

Not Armament Haki, imo.

 

[XXGenesis]

@grey matter
Inconsistency & contradictions or vague scaling allows for conversation that challenge Portryal, Over earlier context of the story….

I don’t think it’s wrong to compare Kidd to YC1. I have several reasons;

1) I believe Marco to be Strongest YC1 Pirate.
I don’t View Kidd as being stronger than Marco.

2) Kidd couldn’t, do what he did by himself neither could law. So I view it, 2 YC1 with great stamina can replicate the same..As Plot was used to fully defeat Big Mom.

 

[really_jonny]

Kid is able to beat Marco, and it's not even necessary to cling to the narrative to say that, the shown is enough.

- Marco doesn't have enough speed to blind Kid, as he was easily hit by BM and even grabbed by neck.
- Marco didn't fight BM the same time as the scabbards faced Kaido, it was two chapters, foreshadowing of the fight in 993 (it started in 994) and end of 996. Kid faced BM alone, without showing himself too damaged (that is, it was a fight equivalent) between chapters 1013 and 1015, Law himself couldn't bear to face her alone while Kid was out of the fight for the damage transmitted by Hawnkis.
- Marco despite having a fruit that regenerates him, has a threshold that leaves him below Kaido/BM or equivalent to characters with Luffy/Kid/Law level resistance. For several chapters, the supernovas withstood numerous attacks from base BM, and for several more attacks from much larger and stronger BM, a more powerful version of her that faced off against Marco. Marco after his clashes against King and Queen, has reached his healing limit, damage that base BM dealt him previously are adding up, but still coldly saying, he is below Kid and Law for shown in stamina. This is crazy, okay, but Marco's stamina isn't a barrier Kid can't overcome.
- Kid's resistance, on the other hand, is a barrier that Marco finds it more difficult to overcome than the other way around, because his attacks have nothing special, they didn't cause significant damage to commanders, they are infinitely inferior attacks to BM.
- Kid on the other hand, has enough attacks to hurt BM, to paraphrase myself:

The Kid's attacks aren't mere giant metals. They work with electromagnetic force. Without even using his awakening, he had enough strength to break Big Mom's arm (Punk Corna Dio technique), using a year of her lifespan to get bigger and stronger, and don't come with that headcanon that Law's attacks have softened her body. Kid's awakening, then, is the most problematic here. If it gets within 5 meters of anyone it will assign magnetism and IMO is K.O for Zoro and Katakuri. The metals attracted to Assign have impact force accelerated by immense level of magnetism, Big Mom was very afraid of it, she was out of combat for a few seconds / minutes and decided to strengthen himself with his own soul after this attack from Kid. Kid himself, who was previously taking blows from Napoleon+Hera, asked Law to take him away from Assig so he wouldn't be hit by the metal bars colliding with BM, that is, Kid's own awakening is superior to the best attacks of BM, since the metals towards BM would hurt him more than BM's attacks.

- Marco doesn't have long-range attacks and isn't fast enough to blind Kid, so he's easily magnetized, either by attracting mountains of metal with magnetic acceleration, or stuck in a pole and being a punching bag for subsequent attacks.
- Kid has metal-free manipulation, as stated in the One Piece magazine, can fly, block attacks (has been seen blocking lightning). It's actually quite versatile.

One thing I can use that Kid's powers use a lot of magnetism to increase the strength of metals is the fact that Law himself is also capable of manipulating metal, although he asked Kid to create a box to trap Zeus. And yet, Zeus with all his strength (we know how powerful he is) was unable to destroy the box to get out of it.
In addition, he has much more AP than YC1, if you use Katakuri as a parameter.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

Nice we got a Kid vs Marco power lvl discussion instead of a Zoro vs Sanji? What dark magic is this?

I think Marco and Kid is the same lvl. Wven though Marco is a YC1, he is as useful as an admiral on battlefield. He can fight 2 YC (where 1 is a YC1) and Perospero who was probably a YC at some point. That being said I still think Kidd has more raw power right now CoA haki shown or not. But they are still the same level because for me, Marco's healing powers more than make up for whatever raw power he lacks.

Sometimes a person's usefulness and rank is not just determined by how powerful they are but by their brains, random abilities, as well as power. This is time and time again proven by fat mob bosses or warlords in history and fiction. Even fatass Kublai Khan in Marco Polo (netflix show) donned some armor and swung a sword around in a 1v1 duel where much more capable soldiers all stood by to watch.

But wait! So does this mean Doflamingo is Admiral level too? Absolutely not. He can close a birdcage fast but how many hits can he tank from a real YC1 before KOing and then birdcage disappearing?

So for me Marco is Admiral level. He can definitely level a playing field and tip the balances even if he lacks raw power. He can tank. He can heal. I wish we can see him truly 1v1 someone in a deathmatch and not playing support. I think in a 1v1 King would stand no chance. The Gorosei said (was it the Gorosei? Well someone said lol) maybe linlin or Marco can stand a chance against Blackbeard. Lol they did not say Kidd. They did not name Dragon. They namedropped Marco if I recall correctly. Yeah he is as strong as Kidd is imo.

 

[Fox666]

I would say Kid is above Marco by a huge margin.

Between a Yonko and commanders there's an abyss... Kaido alone defeated Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, Ashura Douji, Denjiro, Izo...

And I think Law or Kid could also fight against multiple commanders.

Marco lost against 2 commanders, so that shows there's a big difference between them.

In terms of Power Levels:
- Kaido / Big Mom: 4.500
- Law / Kid: 3.000
- Marco: 1.500
- King / Queen: 1.200

 

[grey matter]

@grey matter
Inconsistency & contradictions or vague scaling allows for conversation that challenge Portryal, Over earlier context of the story….

I don’t think it’s wrong to compare Kidd to YC1. I have several reasons;

1) I believe Marco to be Strongest YC1 Pirate.
I don’t View Kidd as being stronger than Marco.

2) Kidd couldn’t, do what he did by himself neither could law. So I view it, 2 YC1 with great stamina can replicate the same..As Plot was used to fully defeat Big Mom.

I mean yeah, you can challenge portrayal. I've seen the arguments of feats > portrayal, because feats actually happened in the manga.
At times, I'm even included to agree here.
But, what happens when there are contradictory feats? The one I bought up for example - base Kaido one shotting beginning of Wano Luffy within a second once he got serious, vs failing to one shot characters that are weaker.
In these scenarios, I go with portrayal/intent.
Oda likely just wanted to show Kaido was so far ahead of Luffy, he went overboard. He later has Scabbards tanking many hits from Kaido, Law and half dead Zoro tanking thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido etc

Another example would be feats of Kaido vs feats of BM.
Yes, Kaido is stronger. He has portrayal and feats for that.
But, the feats make it seem like Kaido will mid-high diff BM, while the portrayal suggests more of a high-extreme diff win for Kaido. Which do you think is the more accurate representation here? I'd say portrayal, cause it makes more sense given all we knew about both until their the raid.

1. Sure. I say Kid and Marco are overall in same tier.
But then again, depends on what you see as "YC1". If you include Marco within it, then yeah Kid is also YC1.
But, I consider Kid stronger than King (the basis for YC1) by a decent margin.

2. Sure, they needed to work together.
Yes, plot was used to defeat BM...........like I've said many times before, I can understand if you think that Law + Kid would've eventually lost if BM didn't fall down, though I disagree with it.
BUT.......everything until that point was already an extreme diff! Law+ Kid made BM get serious in a way she hadn't for decades, made her eat up an year of her lifespan and buff herself up, gave her internal organ damage, broke her bones, got her to cough up blood and scream in pain etc.
Do you think, say King + Katakuri can replicate it? I doubt it. Maybe, if Katakuri is fast enough to distract BM and buy time for King to spam magma esque attacks. Still, them pushing BM as much as Law + Kid did is a big stretch IMO

I would say Kid is above Marco by a huge margin.

Between a Yonko and commanders there's an abyss... Kaido alone defeated Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, Ashura Douji, Denjiro, Izo...

And I think Law or Kid could also fight against multiple commanders.

Marco lost against 2 commanders, so that shows there's a big difference between them.

In terms of Power Levels:
- Kaido / Big Mom: 4.500
- Law / Kid: 3.000
- Marco: 1.500
- King / Queen: 1.200

Marco fought BM alone for almost as long as Kaido fought the scabbards, and came out of it unscathed. If the gap was as high as you claim, then Marco would've got stomped by the time BM was done with him.
Instead she claimed she couldn't afford wasting her energy on him.

There is no way Law or Kid is taking on two commanders at once either, at best they can hold on for some time and lose, like Marco did.

Kaido: 100
(current Luffy: 97)
BM: 96
Law/Kid/Marco: 70
King: 60
Queen: 45