@Jubei_Kibagami Working with someone doesn't mean that you are allies. What Gustang did is like hiring someone for a job. He needed something only Baam could get so he used him and then gave him his payment. Gustang isn't someone Baam can rely on for support in times of difficulties, nor does he know much about him, nor does he care about him. Baam and Rachel were pawns to get what he wanted.
An alliance of convenience is temporary, it's too much to call them allies just because of this. Following that logic even Baam and Rachel are allies because they worked together once even though their views clash (Rachel almost killed Koon, killed Akraptor and wants to kill Androssi). Of course Gustang is interested in Baam, why would he not be interested in another Irregular? It would be stupid not to. Nowhere has it ever been stated or implied that Gustang has Baam's trust. He did what he did to get what he wanted and that's it. His personal feelings regarding Gustang have been unexplored. Their interactions were pretty straightforward.
Also you try to depict Gustang as a good guy when SIU himself stated that he will be an antagonist to Baam.
FH hype is nice and all, but clearly it is not doing any good to the fandom. If you want to believe Gustang is aware of absolutely everything and has tons of backup plans for all situations which will allow him to outwit all the other FHs in any ways, fine. But it is too unrealistic to me when we don't know the details.
There was a legend saying that Traumerei could control all living beings, but he can't even control Leviathan, a Shinheuh that he created.
To me it's a pretty huge stretch that gustang is an ally to bam. There's two angles to consider:
1.- Gustang's agenda is his and his alone. Best case scenario gustang has some use for bam. Gustang having a falling out with zahard is not the same as gustang siding with bam. There's no loyalty or friendship here to speak of. There's no guarantee that gustang's interest will align with bam's indefinitely. The actual context behind the falling out between gustang and zahard has not been elaborated in any manner by the story so far. At best we can infer this originates from enne. But even that is a stretch IMO.
2.- Gustang cares about tower residents as much as traumerei. Traumerei refers to tower residents as trifles or creatures depending on the translation. Gustang has called tower residents bugs. He thought nothing of the souls at the hidden floor, refering to them as tiny and insignificant. This obviously won't sit well with bam. This is why it seems like a stretch that enne is the reason for the fracturing. Enne wouldn't be more of a bug than the rest of the bugs. I think it's more likely that gustang takes more issue with zahard sabotaging the princess program than with a bug's fate rather than some sort of familial love. Hard to say about blosom of course but in story the implication remains that she also doesn't care about tower residents...
I always hate when conversations devolve into the actual definition of X, Y, or Z, or semantics arguments, but this is not exactly true:
'Ally'
verb
combine or unite a resource or commodity with (another) for mutual benefit.
And they absolutely have done as much by that definition. There is the MUTUAL benefit (killing Zahard), and there is the cooperation of Baam getting the thorn (both mutual resources), which btw is ongoing and unfinished, and only useful for its goal in Baam and Gustang's future - it hasn't served its purpose yet. Regardless, you are limiting what it means to be allies or aligned, and I'm not sure why the word 'ally' is so upsetting to you. Because it does not meet your definition of 'allies' - fine, but there are several definitions, and it does NOT have to be formalized or structured or even verbally agreed upon, but could be a more loose association:
"a person who associates or cooperates with another; supporter."
Baam and Gustang associate, cooperate with each other, AND Gustang is a supporter of Baam. This relationship has not ceased.
They are still tied together, and still have similar goals, and that isn't over and the story even shows this:
- Gustang on 30F states in regards to the overall plan to the person on the radio that the adventure had "just begun"
- Gustang on FoD states off screen that there is a big scheme at play here that is central to what just happened, where the thorn went, and important that Urek isn't involved.
- Gustang tells Baam to his face he has been "waiting for him for a long time" - I guess just to say 'Hi' and then be on to the next agenda? Unlikely.
- SIU says Gustang is "extremely influential over the whole story" (I guess I'll keep posting this), seeing as the story revolves around Baam, that means Gustang REMAINS influential over the story with Baam.
- Gustang pointedly tells Baam he is testing him to see if he's the child of prophecy and if he'll take the thorn and kill Zahard, yadda yadda, right on FoD to his face.
In other words, Gustang's involvement with Baam will continue for as long as ToG continues, and as of right now their dynamic is one of cooperation and mutual interests, and those are inarguable facts.
This completely ignores the context of Gustang's greater involvement with Baam (which is, once again, ongoing), what SIU has said about Gustang and his involvement with the ToG story as a whole, and the outright fact that Gustang has been overseeing Baam getting the thorn since 30F (while waiting for him long before even that), well before Gustang made a deal with Baam on FoD. What you don't seem to get is that it is CLEARLY in Gustang's interest that Baam gets the 2nd thorn piece on FoD, as he got the first one on 30F, and will need two more. Gustang would not keep overseeing Baam personally getting shards of the thorn - of utmost importance - if it was not beneficial to HIM personally. This applies to past shards and future ones as well by extension. You act like Baam is the only one benefiting from shard 2 acquisition when this is a continuation of Gustang's works on 30F that Baam didn't even know about, and the obvious implication is 3 and 4 are needed to see what was started on 30F finished. When the finished thorn is completed, then it can work as intended. That hasn't happened yet, so the process and relationship stays ongoing.
You act like Gustang hasn't taken great interest in Baam getting the thorn at a personal level, which cannot be understated as Baam is the person Gustang KNOWS is expected to kill his very own nemesis who he just turned his blade towards. This was not a transitory, one-off exchange for Gustang, but remains ongoing in more ways than one (the continued acquisition of shard pieces, its future use, and Baam being the one to hold or wield it). Baam didn't stop being the child of prophecy, nor did the thorn in Baam stop being of high interest/importance to Gustang. The value of Baam to Gustang remains ongoing, and will remain so all the way up to the confrontation with Zahard. We literally see this in the most recent chapters, where Gustang is using the fact that Rei is tied up with Baam to attack Rei's forces.
Source? Because we're talking about future events here. If Baam gets the full thorn then he'll absolutely be important to Gustang, and gee golly, that's exactly what Gustang is helping Baam do at every step of the way.
Regardless, Baam is predetermined to kill the king by virtue of being Arlen's son and thus the child of prophecy. Gustang knows this, and said he's been waiting for it. It's THE secret to FoD, and Arlen's pocket, and Baam's background, and Gustang is one of the few that has known about the importance of the thorn as given by Enryu for the very purpose for Baam himself to kill the king, which very much is Gustang's STATED goal.
Gustang cannot call on Baam to do his bidding directly, but assisting him to get the thorn and continue to climb to Zahard is what Gustang is relying on Baam to prove he can do. You don't have to be able to call on an individual to do your bidding at your every whim to be considered allied.
Believing in the prophecy, and Baam's role in it, is relying on Baam in effect since it will get Gustang what he desires.
Categorically wrong. Gustang knew more about Baam than Baam knew about Baam (prior to FoD), and likely still does. Baam isn't aware that Gustang was working on 30F, and Gustang was there to PERSONALLY oversee how it played out with the irregular, Baam, and the first thorn in the story. This clearly shows more than a passing interest, and even precedes Gustang meeting Baam at all in person.
He, again, even says he has been "waiting for Baam for a long time" and Baam's entrance in the tower set off his rebellion. You don't wait for someone for a long time that you don't know much or care much about lolol
He then states that he is personally interested in Baam's growth, fate, abilities, and ultimately if he will prove himself capable of using the thorn to kill Zahard.
He CARES about Baam's fate and what he's capable of doing, and he KNOWS how the story is supposed to play out.
Gustang speaks very politely to Baam, and helps him out as an equal would do, which is how Gustang views irregulars.
Now, does he know him on a personal level? No, but who cares? He doesn't have to know Baam's favorite color and food to a) be an ally or in a state of mutual cooperation and b) care about his welfare and future success and c) to have a mutual end goal in mind.
You make a mistake of speaking past-tense as if the relationship(s) is over. For either.
Rachel was a pawn, and maybe still is, and you can't state otherwise if that has changed nor can I. We don't know if she remains a pawn, but she still is a pawn for Gustang's affiliate (stated as much), which ties her to Gustang by one degree of separation, and makes her an asset of an inarguable ally, and as such they will remain loosely allied so long as she operates as a pawn/ally/whatever you insist on calling her for Headon, or whoever it is, and we don't have any reason to believe that function is finished with. Basically, both Gustang and Unknown are mutually using Rachel as a pawn, but she was, and continues to be unless shown otherwise, the pawn of Unknown first and foremost.
Baam was NOT and is not a pawn. He continues to hold the important thorn and make a mess of things so Gustang can react. Do you think it is coincidence that Gustang is now attacking Rei's mothership while the later is preoccupied with Baam? Obviously, Baam's usefulness to Gustang STILL continues, and will keep doing so. He knows he'll also get the rest of the thorn as well, for like the 5th time, and that is important for both parties, clearly.
Further, Gustang speaks politely to Baam, and talks down to Rachel (the later he talks to like a pawn, the former he does not). Rachel is used and spoken to and thought of as a pawn, whereas Baam is something else. If you insist Baam is a pawn to Gustang, he is ALSO more than that. He's seen and spoken to as an equal being, and he's the important figure that Gustang is one of the few that even knows of his existence and future value that perfectly aligns with what he's attempting to do, seeing as he is waging war on Zahard now - the person Gustang KNOWS Baam exists to kill. Gustang goes out of his way to help Baam on FoD with Rachel, whereas Rachel is handled much more aggressively and spoken to like trash.
I'm not aware of that stipulation, where is that coming from? Was a time limit placed on their mutual interests that has now ended? Not at all. In any event, they are still connected in a mutual goal while operating independently currently. You can be allies and operate separately, just look at Baam and the other team of regs climbing the tower. They will meet again at a future date, the story and SIU dictate this as much. Baam even says he knows he'll be back to FoD, which is Gustang's domain (and that fact is not lost on Baam). Gustang says he will be watching Baam climb the tower, with hopeful expectations he proves to be the chosen one.
Following that logic even Baam and Rachel are allies because they worked together once even though their views clash (Rachel almost killed Koon, killed Akraptor and wants to kill Androssi).
They are allied towards a similar goal by virtue of being in the same organization, FUG, with a greater goal. FUG has many examples of infighting, but so long as they operate under the banner of FUG, they are still allied in goals, even if they quarrel. There are several layers here, but the deepest remains FUG's goals, which as of now both Baam and Rachel are associated with. Rachel wants to continue climbing and to be the hero, which puts her in alliance with FUG's goals, and in conflict with Zahard on the throne. Baam has different motivations, but a similar end goal.
Their hostilities also seem to have calmed or set aside for now. You don't have to be friends to operate towards the same goal. There have been countless examples in history where allied states have a personal beef with each other, and their populations hostile and even hating each other, and yet they ally together for a greater goal to kill a mutual enemy. Manga is full of shit like that as well.
I could give probably 10 examples off the top of my head - just in FUG - where so-and-so tried to kill another person, and yet they are now over it and still working towards FUG's greater goals. Hell, practically everyone Baam works and fights with has shown hostility towards him or attempted to kill him at one point (or threatened/planned to do so at least). That's hardly an indication that someone can't work together in the tower, past assassination attempts.
Baam's and Rachel's relationship is pretty complicated, to say the least, and has evolved and included multiple dynamics.
This completely understates Gustang's stated interest in Baam on FoD, Gustang's actions in regards to Baam getting thorn pieces before Baam even met Gustang or knew who he was, the implications from Rei's reference to the FH meeting over what to do with Baam, and their mutual interest in deposing Zahard/Baam's role as the child of prophecy that Gustang has known about, relied on, and expected since his discovery of what happened to Arlen, who he deeply respects.
Gustang's interest is not casual or fleeting, but very much hyper-focused and tied to Baam. This is unique for Gustang over the other FHs. As we've clearly seen over the course and trajectory of the entire story.
Nowhere has it ever been stated or implied that Gustang has Baam's trust.
He did what he did to get what he wanted and that's it. His personal feelings regarding Gustang have been unexplored. Their interactions were pretty straightforward.
OFC it has (Gustang having Baam's trust). Gustang did not threaten Baam to go to the data floor, he offered a non-hostile choice/offer to Baam (not like Rei did), where Baam clearly accepted, with the *trust* that Gustang would keep his word in the exchange, which he of course did. It was an agreeable, and mutual exchange for both parties. Gustang has not placed any threats or restrictions on Baam, but rather the opposite in the hopes that Baam will perform.
Gustang even further earned his trust with a sign of good faith by healing Rachel free of charge.
- Baam trusts Gustang with what he says to him, and the validity of his words as a FH that knew his parents
- Baam trusts Gustang will live up to his word, in fact he does so with advance payment, again as a sign of good faith, showing he's trustworthy
- Baam trusts Gustang isn't sending him to do something he cannot accomplish as he freely goes to data floor
- Baam trusts Gustang has the FoD's best interest in mind, as well as Garams (who he has an agreeable relationship with, and concern over), once he learns the true nature of everyone there, he no longer bothers the thread of asking Gustang to release the curse (the later at least claims he cannot anyways)
Baam's ENTIRE interaction with Gustang is that of awe and believing what Gustang says at face value. Baam gains multiple things, IN ADVANCE, from this person and still trusts him enough to proceed with the exchange, which now requires Baam to perform on data floor and it is now BAAM that must show he is also trustworthy by upholding his end of the bargain.
This has been discussed to death. Again, I'll reference the suggestion that is a mistranslation by someone on this very board that claims to have a better understanding of Korean, and that the true translation was about his character as mischievous or unpredictable something to that effect. As opposed to him being a defacto villain. (I continue to try to find the reference) Spend 5 minutes googling reddit threads on Gustang and you will see multiple people referencing that is a mistranslation in fact.
Here is the blog in question, which to me translates as "It is also one of the characters that can be seen as a black screen in the whole stem." [출처]신의탑 2부 258화 후기 |작성자양념소고기
Sounds like it's saying he's simply "shady" to me (which is how multiple people have explained the translation is to be taken). Shady as in unpredictable, or working towards his own self-interests, sure, all day, but does that mean his goals are contradictory to Baam's or harmful to his existence? Nope.
Translated elsewhere in the fandom is supposedly: "In the overall narrative, he’s a villain as well…"
OK, so, a "villain" to WHO exactly? Not Baam, at least not currently, and it is not said he is antagonistic to Baam specifically. Is he a villain to the status quo and empire, yes, that actually matches up. FUG itself is a 'villain' to the story from the overall narrative of maintaining the peace, and Baam is also included in that. It's very well possible that Baam is just as much a 'villain' 'in the overall narrative' as Gustang, and even more so. Zahard certainly sees both Baam and Gustang as a "villain" right now...
"The overall narrative" of the tower isn't Baam's story per se. Baam is anti empire, as is FUG, as is Gustang. This is the subjectivity of sometimes calling people 'freedom fighters' and sometimes calling them 'terrorists' when they are the same people trying to accomplish the same thing, and what matters is the perspective you are describing.
Likewise, Rachel has been described as a "protagonist" by SIU, when that so far is also anything but the case, but she's actually been a foil to Baam and pretty much acted villainous. SIU is playing games and being coy and vague on purpose with his descriptors.
Likewise, Baam has been described as a "monster" while he is the righteous, freedom-fighter MC.
Something does not add up. I choose to go off of what the story ACTUALLY shows instead. The story shows something different from Gustang being a villain, Baam being a monster (bad implications), and Rachel being a protagonist.
SIU has not said he's a villain ***to Baam*** in any translation. And right now he's seen as a benefactor if anything.
In any event, assume they (the persons claiming it is a mistranslation) were talking out of their ass, so what?
"Will be" as in future tense does not negate the fact that they can both be of use to each other for the extended future, until their paths depart. No one at any time has ever suggested that Gustang will ALWAYS remain on friendly, mutual terms with Baam. It's completely reasonable to expect him to use Baam to get what he clearly wants - empire overthrown via Zahard's death, then to betray Baam, or even to preemptively betray right before by doing something like yanking the thorn out for his own uses (or trying). But that is all completely speculative, and we have no idea how or even if that will play out. Gustang could be an even further big bad down the road, even after Zahard.
This does not mean they could not be currently aligned in their goals.
The US allied with Russia against the Nazis before they started having a cold war between the two.
Guts fought alongside Griffith as an ally, right up to the point of Eclipse, which was obviously planned ahead. If you were reading Berserk, prior to Eclipse you would definitely say Guts and Griffith were allies and had similar goals and interests.
OFC anything is subject to change. White was Baam's ally at the Wall, even fighting on his behalf to save him, before he turned against him in Cat Tower.
I have made it painfully clear I'm talking about present Gustang, and present Gustang has positive, mutually-beneficial exchanges with Baam, has a mutual interest, has hope he performs in the future, and has made it clear he will be watching Baam's growth with baited breath. If he's planning to betray Baam after Baam serves his purpose by deposing Zahard, that's fine I enjoy it, but Baam has hardly outlived his use to Gustang (still ongoing this very week) and fulfilled his destiny which Gustang desires to see happen. Until then, Gustang still operates on the same 'team' as Baam, with the same at least intermediary goal in mind - killing Zahard. After that, all bets are off.
AS OF RIGHT NOW GUSTANG IS A 'FRIENDLY' TO BAAM, and certainly not a villain but rather someone actively rooting for him to succeed.
The 'but but but Gustang is a villain, SIU said so' discussion is exhausting and not quite so simple and clear-cut, and probably isn't even accurate. Assuredly, it's not currently accurate at the very least.
FH hype is nice and all, but clearly it is not doing any good to the fandom. If you want to believe Gustang is aware of absolutely everything and has tons of backup plans for all situations which will allow him to outwit all the other FHs in any ways, fine. But it is too unrealistic to me when we don't know the details.
You are, once again, glossing over the entire context of Gustang being involved with Baam from the moment he came into the tower behind the scenes, planning far ahead and waiting for his arrival, what SIU says about Gustang's involvement in the entire story, and Gustang's performance so far. This isn't ME or the fandom hyping the FH's, it's the actual story and words of SIU. He calls him a "mastermind" and smartest man in the tower. Gustang has been shown REPEATEDLY to be scheming something big. You act like I'm just making shit up about him because I like his character. No, I'm actually following the story and author's notes. Of course we don't know the details. But expecting there to be a (real good) plan is precisely what the story shows, not the inverse. We've also already seen that Gustang has several layers to his plan against Zahard, and even contingency plans in regards to getting the bracelet. That's his MO and how he operates. If anyone is expecting something different from what the story is giving us, it's your take and not mine.
Not sure your point here? Other than to say Rei has dropped the ball on several events, which I have already said is the case (I even make the point that Gustang will prevail over Rei, clearly), but this is a vast departure from Gustang's track record and SIU's comments on his importance in the grand scheme of the story. Levi is also a one-off event, regardless. Exceptions prove the rule, as Levi's existence does. Sure, the FH's are not perfect, but Rei can't hold a candle to what Gustang can in regards to planning and success.
Gustang is betting on the MC, which we know will prevail, and the prophecy that surrounds him and precedes him (which accounts for characters in the story knowing Baam will prevail as they are not readers like we are). Rei has been shown as rather inept, disinterested, or both. That isn't a good comparison at all. It was not said, or shown, that Rei is a "mastermind" (SIU's word) or involved at every level of the ToG story (again, SIU's words), but rather Gustang. Even in the echelon of FH's, Rei and Gustang are incomparable: when it comes from everything from intellect, to success record, to involvement in the whole story, to closeness to the MC (and his cooperation), to being generally prepared, to importance on fighting the Big Bad (Zahard).
Expecting big things from Gustang is what the story tells us to do, and what the story's author tells us to do. You ignoring this and a general lack of expectations is a departure from the reality of the source material not the other way around. Your expectations are too low; mine are not too high. Evidence is on the side that has high expectations.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
TLDR?
From Gustang's mouth to Baam's face:
- Gustang maintains mutual interests WITH Baam
- Gustang maintains interest IN Baam
- So long as Baam has the thorn and continues to gain thorn pieces Baam retains value to Gustang, this was before they met and continues long after they met
- Gustang will stay in Baam's story, and is routing for him - his test or measure of Baam is not over or completed by far
- Gustang's interests in Baam is not passing, casual, or fleeting - or on the same level as other FH's
- Baam is integral in Gustang's grand scheme - he's also been very much anticipating Baam's arrival
- Gustang is not hostile, but cordial and friendly to Baam
- Gustang has desires from Baam, but is open about it, without threatening him as an associate with mutual interests would act
- Gustang thinks Baam could be a 'savior' figure
- Gustang respects Arlen, and Baam by extension, and her wishes as it pertains to Baam's role in the tower
- Gustang knows about Baam's fate, more so than even Baam, and has well-wishes Baam is successful
- Baam is EXTREMELY useful to Gustang, past the point of being a mere 'pawn' for him
- In the associated panels he helps Baam with curing Rachel free of charge, this is not how you treat an enemy
All in one or so panels.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Relevant. Showing that Gustang's expectations from Baam far exceed a mere one-time exchange of 'you do this for me, I'll do that for you - just this once' but are far greater in scope and time-frame:
I would make the point that the story itself is almost definitely pushing bam away from all family heads, not just traumerei or zahard. Bam can't stomach the way family heads treat or think of tower residents. Bam's interest in tower residents, which is something he shares with v, probably won't sit well with gustang in the long run.
To me it's a pretty huge stretch that gustang is an ally to bam. There's two angles to consider:
1.- Gustang's agenda is his and his alone. Best case scenario gustang has some use for bam. Gustang having a falling out with zahard is not the same as gustang siding with bam. There's no loyalty or friendship here to speak of. There's no guarantee that gustang's interest will align with bam's indefinitely. The actual context behind the falling out between gustang and zahard has not been elaborated in any manner by the story so far. At best we can infer this originates from enne. But even that is a stretch IMO.
Kind of addressed above. Their involvement is one of mutuality (Baam getting the thorn, climbing, and getting stronger) and is ongoing, while Gustang has pointedly said he wants to see if Baam can perform by taking the thorn to kill the king, which clearly shows he wants Baam to succeed in his goals, should those be his goals (and by all means it seems that is the path Baam is walking). Gustang openly opposes Zahard and so does Baam's very existence, this puts them in the same camp regardless of their feelings towards each other, which seem to be positive so far. Their interests will align for quite some time, possibly not until after Zahard is deposed, and we won't see that for quite a long time, if ever at this rate.
2.- Gustang cares about tower residents as much as traumerei. Traumerei refers to tower residents as trifles or creatures depending on the translation. Gustang has called tower residents bugs. He thought nothing of the souls at the hidden floor, refering to them as tiny and insignificant. This obviously won't sit well with bam. This is why it seems like a stretch that enne is the reason for the fracturing. Enne wouldn't be more of a bug than the rest of the bugs. I think it's more likely that gustang takes more issue with zahard sabotaging the princess program than with a bug's fate rather than some sort of familial love. Hard to say about blosom of course but in story the implication remains that she also doesn't care about tower residents...
As @Demonspeed mentioned, and as I did previously, Gustang can look down his nose at tower-born and still care about their welfare - or at least not act hostile towards their lives and livelihoods, in particular he is partial to protecting Garam, who shares his goals (funny how that works, that Gustang is protective of those working towards the same ends, hmm....)
He's also aware of the souls on the FoD would die once leaving, so their desire to leave is actually self-harm, and if he didn't care at all he would wipe them out. It's like the difference between a guy with an ant-farm that takes very good care of his ants (and yet still ofc sees them as mere ants) vs a guy with an ant-farm that likes to introduce harm onto them to see them fight or how they react, or at least is neglectful. Rei's attitude is similar to Gustang's but their responses to their attitudes of superiority are not equivalent - at least not as far as we've seen. In fact, we see several instances of the opposite.
Further, if even Rei could care about losing a son, even if a trifle, then of course Gustang could care about Enne, who is said to have the ultimate pedigree. In fact, even if Gustang only sees Enne as a bug (debatable), he certainly understands Blossom is upset about the ordeal, and could at least care about her concerns for Enne. Blossom's concerns, btw, showing that even a FH can care about the bugs beneath their feet (as well as Urek doing the same).
Gustang's treatment of the souls on FoD was actually of concern, albeit mixed with not wanting a leak which might expose him. Once Gustang explained that the souls would be at risk if they left, and that he could not change the spell even if he wanted to, Baam was quiet about the matter. We have no reason to say that it 'won't sit well' with Baam, in fact he shut up about it and then went to go perform for Gustang right after. Baam seemed to be understanding that Gustang was not acting tyrannical to the souls, but as a benefactor of sorts that was aware better than even they are of what is best for them. Does that remove autonomy? Sure, but not for any devious purpose. It's more like a sad caretaker than cannot change things, so does what's best, even if it seems counter to their wishes (you don't let grandpa with Alz free-roam or drive just because he wants to).
In any event, maybe Enne and her treatment caused the fracture in Gustang's heart or maybe it didn't - it certainly affected how Blossom views things (and how her family is not allowed to do anything that would produce further princesses). We don't know WHAT got Gustang to change his tune with Zahard, but we do know he DID change his tune. As such, Enne is as good a guess as anything. Maybe it was simply Blossom's reaction and not Enne herself, but Enne is still central to the issue in that case.
It's not like Gustang came across Arlen's pocket contents and turned it into Zahard, so he clearly was already either harboring a distaste for Zahard (Enne or otherwise), or the pocket contents opened his eyes to the point that he knew Zahard had to go, or a little of both.
I would make the point that the story itself is almost definitely pushing bam away from all family heads, not just traumerei or zahard. Bam can't stomach the way family heads treat or think of tower residents. Bam's interest in tower residents, which is something he shares with v, probably won't sit well with gustang in the long run.
What is Baam upset with Gustang about?? Gustang is the only FH doing anything about how things are handled in the tower, and is helping Baam and rooting for his success. Gustang is showing some change of heart at some level, and that's playing out with him declaring the kingdom being built on lies, effectively declaring a war via the "rift" that is formed, which clearly means an anti-Zahard faction. Gustang is tired of pretending everything is OK when it isn't, how is that not endearing to Baam's plans if anything?
Kind of addressed above. Their involvement is one of mutuality (Baam getting the thorn, climbing, and getting stronger) and is ongoing, while Gustang has pointedly said he wants to see if Baam can perform by taking the thorn to kill the king, which clearly shows he wants Baam to succeed in his goals, should those be his goals (and by all means it seems that is the path Baam is walking). Gustang openly opposes Zahard and so does Baam's very existence, this puts them in the same camp regardless of their feelings towards each other, which seem to be positive so far. Their interests will align for quite some time, possibly not until after Zahard is deposed, and we won't see that for quite a long time, if ever at this rate.
As @Demonspeed mentioned, and as I did previously, Gustang can look down his nose at tower-born and still care about their welfare - or at least not act hostile towards their lives and livelihoods, in particular he is partial to protecting Garam, who shares his goals (funny how that works, that Gustang is protective of those working towards the same ends, hmm....)
He's also aware of the souls on the FoD would die once leaving, so their desire to leave is actually self-harm, and if he didn't care at all he would wipe them out. It's like the difference between a guy with an ant-farm that takes very good care of his ants (and yet still ofc sees them as mere ants) vs a guy with an ant-farm that likes to introduce harm onto them to see them fight or how they react, or at least is neglectful. Rei's attitude is similar to Gustang's but their responses to their attitudes of superiority are not equivalent - at least not as far as we've seen. In fact, we see several instances of the opposite.
Further, if even Rei could care about losing a son, even if a trifle, then of course Gustang could care about Enne, who is said to have the ultimate pedigree. In fact, even if Gustang only sees Enne as a bug (debatable), he certainly understands Blossom is upset about the ordeal, and could at least care about her concerns for Enne. Blossom's concerns, btw, showing that even a FH can care about the bugs beneath their feet (as well as Urek doing the same).
Gustang's treatment of the souls on FoD was actually of concern, albeit mixed with not wanting a leak which might expose him. Once Gustang explained that the souls would be at risk if they left, and that he could not change the spell even if he wanted to, Baam was quiet about the matter. We have no reason to say that it 'won't sit well' with Baam, in fact he shut up about it and then went to go perform for Gustang right after. Baam seemed to be understanding that Gustang was not acting tyrannical to the souls, but as a benefactor of sorts that was aware better than even they are of what is best for them. Does that remove autonomy? Sure, but not for any devious purpose. It's more like a sad caretaker than cannot change things, so does what's best, even if it seems counter to their wishes (you don't let grandpa with Alz free-roam or drive just because he wants to).
In any event, maybe Enne and her treatment caused the fracture in Gustang's heart or maybe it didn't - it certainly affected how Blossom views things (and how her family is not allowed to do anything that would produce further princesses). We don't know WHAT got Gustang to change his tune with Zahard, but we do know he DID change his tune. As such, Enne is as good a guess as anything. Maybe it was simply Blossom's reaction and not Enne herself, but Enne is still central to the issue in that case.
It's not like Gustang came across Arlen's pocket contents and turned it into Zahard, so he clearly was already either harboring a distaste for Zahard (Enne or otherwise), or the pocket contents opened his eyes to the point that he knew Zahard had to go, or a little of both.
What is Baam upset with Gustang about?? Gustang is the only FH doing anything about how things are handled in the tower, and is helping Baam and rooting for his success. Gustang is showing some change of heart at some level, and that's playing out with him declaring the kingdom being built on lies, effectively declaring a war via the "rift" that is formed, which clearly means an anti-Zahard faction. Gustang is tired of pretending everything is OK when it isn't, how is that not endearing to Baam's plans if anything?
I am not really inclined to take anything gustang says or does at face value. A few points:
1.- We don't actually know that gustang wants zahard dead. Or what his meta goals are.
2.- Bam's not exactly on the warpath for zahard's head just yet. Bam obviously has no love for zahard of course.
3.- We don't know why gustang is protecting garam. Maybe he is doing it out of the goodness of his heart, maybe he is doing it to fuck with zahard.
4.- The souls at the hidden floor wouldn't die if the spell is broken. The souls would be released and its residents, who are scared of death, would be mortal once again.
5.- gustang can hypothetically care about enne. But we don't know that for a fact. Gustang thinks of tower residents as bugs... Maybe he saw enne like a hamster. Which would put her just above rachel (vermin).
6.- IIRC gustang didn't come up with arlen's pocket at all. Wasn't it garam who found it?
7.- I kinda call BS on the "test" gustang gave bam. To me this looks more like it was about gustang getting his knickknacks rather than testing anything.
8.- Isn't it a bit of a stretch that gustang is rooting on bam?
9.- Bam's plans? Bam's not really planning anything right now beyond saving jinsung right now. I think it's a stretch to say that right now bam is actively planning on heading to zahard to murder him.
While true, we know that Gustang is protecting someone we know with confirmation wants Zahard dead, protected the thorn, helps Baam get it, knows of the prophecy for Baam doing just that, told Baam as much that he's waiting/wanting to see if Baam can, and took actions that were dangerous enough that the result is the order for his clan's extermination.
All that in context we can get a pretty good idea that Gustang isn't exactly for Zahard, but against him.
Could Gustang have plans in a post-Zahard tower? Sure. We're a long way from that.
You're right, but he's certainly not stopping short of reforming FUG which still wants to kill Zahard, fighting Z forces nonstop (who were tied to Jinsung's kidnapping, now ironically known to be Maschenny on Baam's kind-of side), acquiring thorns (he knows are used to kill the king), and so on. He hasn't exactly strayed from the path of someone that's making moves separate from what he is fated to do...
Baam is walking like a duck (someone fated to kill Zahard), talking like a duck, looking like a duck, quacking like a duck... he might not actually be a duck but he's wearing a duck suit at least.
While true, I think Gustang risking it all 'to fuck with Zahard' is a pretty poor guess, no? Let's be serious.
Isn't it interesting that Gustang is networking with everyone that wants to kill Zahard, from FUG, to the fate of the thorn, to Baam (fated and prophesied about whether he does or not), to Garam? Seems like odd company to keep if you aren't in the 'kill Zahard' camp.
But I think your bigger point is why Garam specifically, the bug that she is. Who knows, but Gustang is certainly taking huge risks to protect said bug and what that bug knows and wants.
4.- The souls at the hidden floor wouldn't die if the spell is broken. The souls would be released and its residents, who are scared of death, would be mortal once again.
As Gustang explained to Baam, their best interest is staying on the FoD (whether they know or not), not that he could remove the spell anyways, supposedly. Gustang alludes to a vote that essentially shows that they really aren't by and large wanting to change from immortal to mortal, as they prefer things the way they are. At that point, they would be at risk of dying if they left the floor, which Gustang can't even grant anyways. I never said they would die immediately, I said they would be at risk of death once leaving, which is what Gustang said, and what you said by virtue of them now being mortal (being mortal means you will die). This gets philosophical, but they prefer being immortal and stuck on FoD to the freedom that is accompanying the threat of death, as it is a comforting 'life' they live. At least that's what the vote represents. Gustang even asks Baam if Baam is trying to exert his own will on them because Baam thinks they are making the wrong choice by deciding to stay on Fod, which actually goes against the wishes of the bulk of FoD residents, and also puts Garam at risk.
Gustang also shows a concern over the souls there, fragments of insects. If he were ruthless he'd just smash them all into the waterfall for the ease of it all and be done with it - not release them back into their bodies. Of not be concerned when Urek used his warp-drive that put the beings present at danger of harm (but not Gustang, and yet Gustang is pissed he's being so careless). As Gustang releases the souls there is almost a joyous reaction as they are happy to be 'living' again, and then Gustang erases their memory so they can be happy and content in their naivety (Matrix blissful ignorance). He's not acting like a tyrant of the floor but a caretaker. He's hardly operating with malice, and they are yet mere bugs to him.
5.- gustang can hypothetically care about enne. But we don't know that for a fact. Gustang thinks of tower residents as bugs... Maybe he saw enne like a hamster. Which would put her just above rachel (vermin).
Maybe. But if Enne's fate is tied to perhaps winning over Blossom, as we know she's unhappy about the events, then by extension Gustang could care about Enne's freedom (and thus springing her from jail) even if he sees her as a bug. Who knows. Maybe Gustang is doing EVERYTHING to simp for Blossom, by defying Zahard enough to take back Enne, but his proclamation about something that all the families would have to face sooner or later hints at a bigger issue.
I think you're missing the point here. It doesn't matter who had it first, the fact is there is only a small handful that know of its contents and existence, and Gustang is one of the few that is privy to it, as were Enne and Garam, who now works with Gustang for the same reasons as what the pocket explain (that Zahard is a dick).
For the record, it was Enne who came across it 'first' (but how did she get it? maybe via Gustang...) and it is now on the floor under Gustang's control and awareness, so either way he came across it in some form or fashion (whether before or later), even if it was Garam showing it to him. Gustang speaks of the prophecy which we know comes from the diary, so he's aware of its contents. At some point it was news to Gustang, irrespective of when or where or who came into possession of it first.
7.- I kinda call BS on the "test" gustang gave bam. To me this looks more like it was about gustang getting his knickknacks rather than testing anything.
Put another way, it was Gustang and Unknown's will/plan all along to get Baam/FUG the second thorn. This shouldn't have to be explained, but with the context of Gustang watching over Baam on 30F get the first thorn, we get an agenda which is beyond clear - to get Baam all the thorn pieces. This even coincides exactly with what Gustang says he's testing Baam about - to see if he's able to get the thorn in order to change the tower (by way of killing Zahard, which is what the thorn is fucking designed to do). Gustang's words to Baam's face, behind his back, and actions on multiple events (known to Baam and not known to Baam) are exactly tied to one thing - getting Baam the thorn. Which dovetails into the purpose of the thorn and the purpose of even Baam, as per the prophecy that Gustang is one of the few to even know. Garam even muses that Gustang probably helped Grand De Sah/Jah complete the spell and protect FoD specifically to isolate the thorn for FUG (which is effectively Baam) to later pick it up when the time is right.
So, this clearly isn't 'just about knickknacks' for Gustang - it is very clearly to serve a greater purpose that Gustang is working towards, the "big picture" as he calls it to Unknown who is off-screen. Probably the same Unknown he was talking to back on 30F via the radio, an event which also revolved around Baam getting a thorn piece, go figure. Every time Baam gets a thorn piece, Gustang is PERSONALLY there and reporting the news to a mysterious figure, and them shooting the shit about it. Hardly an accident or coincidence, but the panel above indicates a 'just as planned' moment for him. It also shows that this is a multi-step process.
'OK, second thorn shard secured (on the the next)'
Gustang managed to kill two birds with one stone by simultaneously using and helping Baam. It's win-win for both right now.
How so? He's PERSONALLY invested and involved in several instances of Baam getting the thorn (the other FH's barely have bothered to get involved with Baam all this time), which is confirmed as a goal of his and part of a greater plan, and he knows of the prophecy which is clearly about Baam coming back to the tower, getting the thorn, and killing the king. He says this much to Baam's face, which for some reason you don't believe, but is consistent with all his other words and actions (many that Baam doesn't even know about, but we do).
If Gustang in any way believes in the prophecy or Arlen's legacy, then he's absolutely rooting for Baam's success. He says as much. Pictured linked in my previous post.
Now, I think the twist is that to do so, Baam will have to die in the process, or put himself or others at risk (losing humanity perhaps). There is some trade-off taking place. Garam won't say what it is, but she says if Androssi likes Baam she will have to choose between supporting him in his endeavors to change the tower (code for kill Zahard, let's be clear), and supporting him out of affection for him as a person - she can't get BOTH. This heavily implies if Baam is successful in changing the tower he will lose something in the process - from his humanity to his life to the lives of those around him.
I'm on the fence about whether Gustang cares about Baam's fate in that way. I'd default to say Baam is merely a means to an end for Gustang, but Gustang is also partial towards Arlen and I don't see him wanting to spit on her legacy. Unless that's part of her legacy! (Baam dying in the process of killing the king or whatever)
9.- Bam's plans? Bam's not really planning anything right now beyond saving jinsung right now. I think it's a stretch to say that right now bam is actively planning on heading to zahard to murder him.
Sure, sure. We don't know what Baam's next step is, but is there any scenario where he's not fighting Z forces up the tower, acquiring more thorn fragments, and put on collision courses with pro-empire FH's and even ultimately Zahard?
What, is he going to quit all this FUG/child of prophecy/thorn mess and instead find a place in the regulars area to open a ramen shop?
By continuing to climb, Baam is put at odds with Zahard whether he feels a type a way about him or not. Eventually, Zahard will try and kill him personally FOR A THIRD TIME (two times is not enough for Baam?) and Baam will be forced to protect himself. If someone kept trying to kill me I'd eventually start to take it personal... Oh wait, I would the first time. Just another silly little Baam trait.
The overarching point is this: do we/you have any examples of a post-Arlen pocket or post-Enne incident Gustang mistreating the tower-born? I'm not talking about meany words, I mean actions. Because I can give examples to the contrary, but we have no data to suggest Gustang is as depraved as Zahard or Rei. Gustang can look down on 'bugs' and still be benevolent towards them, as he was with White when he spared him but had all the rights to kill him for trying to steal souls. Or helping Garam. Or protecting the FoD souls from decay. For all intents and purposes, Gustang could very well be a reformed FH, which lead him to defy Zahard, and associate with those trying to pull him from his throne.
Sure, don't believe him, watch his actions though. Then compare those to his words.
While true, we know that Gustang is protecting someone we know with confirmation wants Zahard dead, protected the thorn, helps Baam get it, knows of the prophecy for Baam doing just that, told Baam as much that he's waiting/wanting to see if Baam can, and took actions that were dangerous enough that the result is the order for his clan's extermination.
All that in context we can get a pretty good idea that Gustang isn't exactly for Zahard, but against him.
Could Gustang have plans in a post-Zahard tower? Sure. We're a long way from that.
You're right, but he's certainly not stopping short of reforming FUG which still wants to kill Zahard, fighting Z forces nonstop (who were tied to Jinsung's kidnapping, now ironically known to be Maschenny on Baam's kind-of side), acquiring thorns (he knows are used to kill the king), and so on. He hasn't exactly strayed from the path of someone that's making moves separate from what he is fated to do...
Baam is walking like a duck (someone fated to kill Zahard), talking like a duck, looking like a duck, quacking like a duck... he might not actually be a duck but he's wearing a duck suit at least.
While true, I think Gustang risking it all 'to fuck with Zahard' is a pretty poor guess, no? Let's be serious.
Isn't it interesting that Gustang is networking with everyone that wants to kill Zahard, from FUG, to the fate of the thorn, to Baam (fated and prophesied about whether he does or not), to Garam? Seems like odd company to keep if you aren't in the 'kill Zahard' camp.
But I think your bigger point is why Garam specifically, the bug that she is. Who knows, but Gustang is certainly taking huge risks to protect said bug and what that bug knows and wants.
As Gustang explained to Baam, their best interest is staying on the FoD (whether they know or not), not that he could remove the spell anyways, supposedly. Gustang alludes to a vote that essentially shows that they really aren't by and large wanting to change from immortal to mortal, as they prefer things the way they are. At that point, they would be at risk of dying if they left the floor, which Gustang can't even grant anyways. I never said they would die immediately, I said they would be at risk of death once leaving, which is what Gustang said, and what you said by virtue of them now being mortal (being mortal means you will die). This gets philosophical, but they prefer being immortal and stuck on FoD to the freedom that is accompanying the threat of death, as it is a comforting 'life' they live. At least that's what the vote represents. Gustang even asks Baam if Baam is trying to exert his own will on them because Baam thinks they are making the wrong choice by deciding to stay on Fod, which actually goes against the wishes of the bulk of FoD residents, and also puts Garam at risk.
Gustang also shows a concern over the souls there, fragments of insects. If he were ruthless he'd just smash them all into the waterfall for the ease of it all and be done with it - not release them back into their bodies. Of not be concerned when Urek used his warp-drive that put the beings present at danger of harm (but not Gustang, and yet Gustang is pissed he's being so careless). As Gustang releases the souls there is almost a joyous reaction as they are happy to be 'living' again, and then Gustang erases their memory so they can be happy and content in their naivety (Matrix blissful ignorance). He's not acting like a tyrant of the floor but a caretaker. He's hardly operating with malice, and they are yet mere bugs to him.
Maybe. But if Enne's fate is tied to perhaps winning over Blossom, as we know she's unhappy about the events, then by extension Gustang could care about Enne's freedom (and thus springing her from jail) even if he sees her as a bug. Who knows. Maybe Gustang is doing EVERYTHING to simp for Blossom, by defying Zahard enough to take back Enne, but his proclamation about something that all the families would have to face sooner or later hints at a bigger issue.
I think you're missing the point here. It doesn't matter who had it first, the fact is there is only a small handful that know of its contents and existence, and Gustang is one of the few that is privy to it, as were Enne and Garam, who now works with Gustang for the same reasons as what the pocket explain (that Zahard is a dick).
For the record, it was Enne who came across it 'first' (but how did she get it? maybe via Gustang...) and it is now on the floor under Gustang's control and awareness, so either way he came across it in some form or fashion (whether before or later), even if it was Garam showing it to him. Gustang speaks of the prophecy which we know comes from the diary, so he's aware of its contents. At some point it was news to Gustang, irrespective of when or where or who came into possession of it first.
Well, you're wrong on that call:
Put another way, it was Gustang and Unknown's will/plan all along to get Baam/FUG the second thorn. This shouldn't have to be explained, but with the context of Gustang watching over Baam on 30F get the first thorn, we get an agenda which is beyond clear - to get Baam all the thorn pieces. This even coincides exactly with what Gustang says he's testing Baam about - to see if he's able to get the thorn in order to change the tower (by way of killing Zahard, which is what the thorn is fucking designed to do). Gustang's words to Baam's face, behind his back, and actions on multiple events (known to Baam and not known to Baam) are exactly tied to one thing - getting Baam the thorn. Which dovetails into the purpose of the thorn and the purpose of even Baam, as per the prophecy that Gustang is one of the few to even know. Garam even muses that Gustang probably helped Grand De Sah/Jah complete the spell and protect FoD specifically to isolate the thorn for FUG (which is effectively Baam) to later pick it up when the time is right.
So, this clearly isn't 'just about knickknacks' for Gustang - it is very clearly to serve a greater purpose that Gustang is working towards, the "big picture" as he calls it to Unknown who is off-screen. Probably the same Unknown he was talking to back on 30F via the radio, an event which also revolved around Baam getting a thorn piece, go figure. Every time Baam gets a thorn piece, Gustang is PERSONALLY there and reporting the news to a mysterious figure, and them shooting the shit about it. Hardly an accident or coincidence, but the panel above indicates a 'just as planned' moment for him. It also shows that this is a multi-step process.
'OK, second thorn shard secured (on the the next)'
Gustang managed to kill two birds with one stone by simultaneously using and helping Baam. It's win-win for both right now.
How so? He's PERSONALLY invested and involved in several instances of Baam getting the thorn (the other FH's barely have bothered to get involved with Baam all this time), which is confirmed as a goal of his and part of a greater plan, and he knows of the prophecy which is clearly about Baam coming back to the tower, getting the thorn, and killing the king. He says this much to Baam's face, which for some reason you don't believe, but is consistent with all his other words and actions (many that Baam doesn't even know about, but we do).
If Gustang in any way believes in the prophecy or Arlen's legacy, then he's absolutely rooting for Baam's success. He says as much. Pictured linked in my previous post.
Now, I think the twist is that to do so, Baam will have to die in the process, or put himself or others at risk (losing humanity perhaps). There is some trade-off taking place. Garam won't say what it is, but she says if Androssi likes Baam she will have to choose between supporting him in his endeavors to change the tower (code for kill Zahard, let's be clear), and supporting him out of affection for him as a person - she can't get BOTH. This heavily implies if Baam is successful in changing the tower he will lose something in the process - from his humanity to his life to the lives of those around him.
I'm on the fence about whether Gustang cares about Baam's fate in that way. I'd default to say Baam is merely a means to an end for Gustang, but Gustang is also partial towards Arlen and I don't see him wanting to spit on her legacy. Unless that's part of her legacy! (Baam dying in the process of killing the king or whatever)
Sure, sure. We don't know what Baam's next step is, but is there any scenario where he's not fighting Z forces up the tower, acquiring more thorn fragments, and put on collision courses with pro-empire FH's and even ultimately Zahard?
What, is he going to quit all this FUG/child of prophecy/thorn mess and instead find a place in the regulars area to open a ramen shop?
By continuing to climb, Baam is put at odds with Zahard whether he feels a type a way about him or not. Eventually, Zahard will try and kill him personally FOR A THIRD TIME (two times is not enough for Baam?) and Baam will be forced to protect himself. If someone kept trying to kill me I'd eventually start to take it personal... Oh wait, I would the first time. Just another silly little Baam trait.
The overarching point is this: do we/you have any examples of a post-Arlen pocket or post-Enne incident Gustang mistreating the tower-born? I'm not talking about meany words, I mean actions. Because I can give examples to the contrary, but we have no data to suggest Gustang is as depraved as Zahard or Rei. Gustang can look down on 'bugs' and still be benevolent towards them, as he was with White when he spared him but had all the rights to kill him for trying to steal souls. Or helping Garam. Or protecting the FoD souls from decay. For all intents and purposes, Gustang could very well be a reformed FH, which lead him to defy Zahard, and associate with those trying to pull him from his throne.
I don't doubt gustang is against zahard. But that still doesn't mean gustang specifically wants zahard dead or that he is pro bam. His agenda is entirely unknown to us. It's possible you are right of course but I am inclined to maintaining my position of extreme skepticism of gustang's intentions while the specifics of his agenda and motives are not revealed and contextualized.
Bam is pretty much utilizing fug towards his own selfish goals though. He is not in it to stick it to zahard, the family heads or his commanders. His relationship with other fug members is still potentially wonky at best. He is close to jinsung of course but outside of that the only one that might sort of be friends with him is yama, who turned out to be a cuddly puppy rather than almost cartoonishly evil. Outside of that his position towards karaka is probably something like tolerance considering what karaka did at the workshop battle. he was definitely out for blood with white. While from a plot perspective bam is rising as a major fug power bam still has not made a conscious choice to take any leadership position within fug.
But bam still hasn't made any choices regarding whether to pursue this destiny that has been placed in front of him. He might eventually but the choice is still important. To me an important moment in the story was when urek told bam not to pay that much attention to the tower's shenanigans and remain true to himself. While this doesn't mean he won't end up chosing to pursue zahard, I would maintain that how bam does this is entirely up for grabs.
That bit is almost specifically why I call BS on gustang's intentions. Gustang delivered the thorn while also getting a little extra on the side. And was this even to bam's benefit? It led to bam being directly under zahard's sight. What would have happened if bam didn't go to the hidden floor under gustang's directions? He would have probably continued his revolution training, gotten at least most of the power boosts he got at the hidden floor by training with the god of guardians and then moved on with his life without rattling the hornet's nest. Did gustang know that messing with data zahard would/could alert the real zahard? Was he supposed to deliver the thorn without expecting anything in return? Did it matter to gustang if bam passed his tests?
Also, that's not what gustang said about the souls and people at the floor of death.
What do you desire? Money and wealth? Honor and pride? Authority and power? Revenge? Or something that transcends them all? Whatever you desire—it's here.
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The point made there is that the 43rd floor residents were essentially happier with the spell, trapped in the floor and all. Because they were afraid of death. With a dash of them potentially leaking info and whatnot. There is nothing about this resulting in 43rd floor residents going through certain death if the spell is undone.
Gustang talks about tower residents as insignificant bugs and we learned from data eduan that basically all family heads are currently like that. Now, it's absolutely the case the case that how each family head treats the bugs might vary. If anything I would argue that's a pretty solid bet. But there's absolutely no doubt that in the end all the family heads see tower residents as outright inferior beings.
Not sure how to respond really, when it seems like my response was mostly glossed over, but I'll try.
I always hate when conversations devolve into the actual definition of X, Y, or Z, or semantics arguments, but this is not exactly true:
'Ally'
verb
combine or unite a resource or commodity with (another) for mutual benefit.
And they absolutely have done as much by that definition. There is the MUTUAL benefit (killing Zahard), and there is the cooperation of Baam getting the thorn (both mutual resources), which btw is ongoing and unfinished, and only useful for its goal in Baam and Gustang's future - it hasn't served its purpose yet. Regardless, you are limiting what it means to be allies or aligned, and I'm not sure why the word 'ally' is so upsetting to you. Because it does not meet your definition of 'allies' - fine, but there are several definitions, and it does NOT have to be formalized or structured or even verbally agreed upon, but could be a more loose association:
"a person who associates or cooperates with another; supporter."
Baam and Gustang associate, cooperate with each other, AND Gustang is a supporter of Baam. This relationship has not ceased.
They are still tied together, and still have similar goals, and that isn't over and the story even shows this:
- Gustang on 30F states in regards to the overall plan to the person on the radio that the adventure had "just begun"
- Gustang on FoD states off screen that there is a big scheme at play here that is central to what just happened, where the thorn went, and important that Urek isn't involved.
- Gustang tells Baam to his face he has been "waiting for him for a long time" - I guess just to say 'Hi' and then be on to the next agenda? Unlikely.
- SIU says Gustang is "extremely influential over the whole story" (I guess I'll keep posting this), seeing as the story revolves around Baam, that means Gustang REMAINS influential over the story with Baam.
- Gustang pointedly tells Baam he is testing him to see if he's the child of prophecy and if he'll take the thorn and kill Zahard, yadda yadda, right on FoD to his face.
In other words, Gustang's involvement with Baam will continue for as long as ToG continues, and as of right now their dynamic is one of cooperation and mutual interests, and those are inarguable facts.
This completely ignores the context of Gustang's greater involvement with Baam (which is, once again, ongoing), what SIU has said about Gustang and his involvement with the ToG story as a whole, and the outright fact that Gustang has been overseeing Baam getting the thorn since 30F (while waiting for him long before even that), well before Gustang made a deal with Baam on FoD. What you don't seem to get is that it is CLEARLY in Gustang's interest that Baam gets the 2nd thorn piece on FoD, as he got the first one on 30F, and will need two more. Gustang would not keep overseeing Baam personally getting shards of the thorn - of utmost importance - if it was not beneficial to HIM personally. This applies to past shards and future ones as well by extension. You act like Baam is the only one benefiting from shard 2 acquisition when this is a continuation of Gustang's works on 30F that Baam didn't even know about, and the obvious implication is 3 and 4 are needed to see what was started on 30F finished. When the finished thorn is completed, then it can work as intended. That hasn't happened yet, so the process and relationship stays ongoing.
You act like Gustang hasn't taken great interest in Baam getting the thorn at a personal level, which cannot be understated as Baam is the person Gustang KNOWS is expected to kill his very own nemesis who he just turned his blade towards. This was not a transitory, one-off exchange for Gustang, but remains ongoing in more ways than one (the continued acquisition of shard pieces, its future use, and Baam being the one to hold or wield it). Baam didn't stop being the child of prophecy, nor did the thorn in Baam stop being of high interest/importance to Gustang. The value of Baam to Gustang remains ongoing, and will remain so all the way up to the confrontation with Zahard. We literally see this in the most recent chapters, where Gustang is using the fact that Rei is tied up with Baam to attack Rei's forces.
Source? Because we're talking about future events here. If Baam gets the full thorn then he'll absolutely be important to Gustang, and gee golly, that's exactly what Gustang is helping Baam do at every step of the way.
Regardless, Baam is predetermined to kill the king by virtue of being Arlen's son and thus the child of prophecy. Gustang knows this, and said he's been waiting for it. It's THE secret to FoD, and Arlen's pocket, and Baam's background, and Gustang is one of the few that has known about the importance of the thorn as given by Enryu for the very purpose for Baam himself to kill the king, which very much is Gustang's STATED goal.
Gustang cannot call on Baam to do his bidding directly, but assisting him to get the thorn and continue to climb to Zahard is what Gustang is relying on Baam to prove he can do. You don't have to be able to call on an individual to do your bidding at your every whim to be considered allied.
Believing in the prophecy, and Baam's role in it, is relying on Baam in effect since it will get Gustang what he desires.
Categorically wrong. Gustang knew more about Baam than Baam knew about Baam (prior to FoD), and likely still does. Baam isn't aware that Gustang was working on 30F, and Gustang was there to PERSONALLY oversee how it played out with the irregular, Baam, and the first thorn in the story. This clearly shows more than a passing interest, and even precedes Gustang meeting Baam at all in person.
He, again, even says he has been "waiting for Baam for a long time" and Baam's entrance in the tower set off his rebellion. You don't wait for someone for a long time that you don't know much or care much about lolol
He then states that he is personally interested in Baam's growth, fate, abilities, and ultimately if he will prove himself capable of using the thorn to kill Zahard.
He CARES about Baam's fate and what he's capable of doing, and he KNOWS how the story is supposed to play out.
Gustang speaks very politely to Baam, and helps him out as an equal would do, which is how Gustang views irregulars.
Now, does he know him on a personal level? No, but who cares? He doesn't have to know Baam's favorite color and food to a) be an ally or in a state of mutual cooperation and b) care about his welfare and future success and c) to have a mutual end goal in mind.
You make a mistake of speaking past-tense as if the relationship(s) is over. For either.
Rachel was a pawn, and maybe still is, and you can't state otherwise if that has changed nor can I. We don't know if she remains a pawn, but she still is a pawn for Gustang's affiliate (stated as much), which ties her to Gustang by one degree of separation, and makes her an asset of an inarguable ally, and as such they will remain loosely allied so long as she operates as a pawn/ally/whatever you insist on calling her for Headon, or whoever it is, and we don't have any reason to believe that function is finished with. Basically, both Gustang and Unknown are mutually using Rachel as a pawn, but she was, and continues to be unless shown otherwise, the pawn of Unknown first and foremost.
Baam was NOT and is not a pawn. He continues to hold the important thorn and make a mess of things so Gustang can react. Do you think it is coincidence that Gustang is now attacking Rei's mothership while the later is preoccupied with Baam? Obviously, Baam's usefulness to Gustang STILL continues, and will keep doing so. He knows he'll also get the rest of the thorn as well, for like the 5th time, and that is important for both parties, clearly.
Further, Gustang speaks politely to Baam, and talks down to Rachel (the later he talks to like a pawn, the former he does not). Rachel is used and spoken to and thought of as a pawn, whereas Baam is something else. If you insist Baam is a pawn to Gustang, he is ALSO more than that. He's seen and spoken to as an equal being, and he's the important figure that Gustang is one of the few that even knows of his existence and future value that perfectly aligns with what he's attempting to do, seeing as he is waging war on Zahard now - the person Gustang KNOWS Baam exists to kill. Gustang goes out of his way to help Baam on FoD with Rachel, whereas Rachel is handled much more aggressively and spoken to like trash.
I'm not aware of that stipulation, where is that coming from? Was a time limit placed on their mutual interests that has now ended? Not at all. In any event, they are still connected in a mutual goal while operating independently currently. You can be allies and operate separately, just look at Baam and the other team of regs climbing the tower. They will meet again at a future date, the story and SIU dictate this as much. Baam even says he knows he'll be back to FoD, which is Gustang's domain (and that fact is not lost on Baam). Gustang says he will be watching Baam climb the tower, with hopeful expectations he proves to be the chosen one.
They are allied towards a similar goal by virtue of being in the same organization, FUG, with a greater goal. FUG has many examples of infighting, but so long as they operate under the banner of FUG, they are still allied in goals, even if they quarrel. There are several layers here, but the deepest remains FUG's goals, which as of now both Baam and Rachel are associated with. Rachel wants to continue climbing and to be the hero, which puts her in alliance with FUG's goals, and in conflict with Zahard on the throne. Baam has different motivations, but a similar end goal.
Their hostilities also seem to have calmed or set aside for now. You don't have to be friends to operate towards the same goal. There have been countless examples in history where allied states have a personal beef with each other, and their populations hostile and even hating each other, and yet they ally together for a greater goal to kill a mutual enemy. Manga is full of shit like that as well.
I could give probably 10 examples off the top of my head - just in FUG - where so-and-so tried to kill another person, and yet they are now over it and still working towards FUG's greater goals. Hell, practically everyone Baam works and fights with has shown hostility towards him or attempted to kill him at one point (or threatened/planned to do so at least). That's hardly an indication that someone can't work together in the tower, past assassination attempts.
Baam's and Rachel's relationship is pretty complicated, to say the least, and has evolved and included multiple dynamics.
This completely understates Gustang's stated interest in Baam on FoD, Gustang's actions in regards to Baam getting thorn pieces before Baam even met Gustang or knew who he was, the implications from Rei's reference to the FH meeting over what to do with Baam, and their mutual interest in deposing Zahard/Baam's role as the child of prophecy that Gustang has known about, relied on, and expected since his discovery of what happened to Arlen, who he deeply respects.
Gustang's interest is not casual or fleeting, but very much hyper-focused and tied to Baam. This is unique for Gustang over the other FHs. As we've clearly seen over the course and trajectory of the entire story.
OFC it has (Gustang having Baam's trust). Gustang did not threaten Baam to go to the data floor, he offered a non-hostile choice/offer to Baam (not like Rei did), where Baam clearly accepted, with the *trust* that Gustang would keep his word in the exchange, which he of course did. It was an agreeable, and mutual exchange for both parties. Gustang has not placed any threats or restrictions on Baam, but rather the opposite in the hopes that Baam will perform.
Gustang even further earned his trust with a sign of good faith by healing Rachel free of charge.
- Baam trusts Gustang with what he says to him, and the validity of his words as a FH that knew his parents
- Baam trusts Gustang will live up to his word, in fact he does so with advance payment, again as a sign of good faith, showing he's trustworthy
- Baam trusts Gustang isn't sending him to do something he cannot accomplish as he freely goes to data floor
- Baam trusts Gustang has the FoD's best interest in mind, as well as Garams (who he has an agreeable relationship with, and concern over), once he learns the true nature of everyone there, he no longer bothers the thread of asking Gustang to release the curse (the later at least claims he cannot anyways)
Baam's ENTIRE interaction with Gustang is that of awe and believing what Gustang says at face value. Baam gains multiple things, IN ADVANCE, from this person and still trusts him enough to proceed with the exchange, which now requires Baam to perform on data floor and it is now BAAM that must show he is also trustworthy by upholding his end of the bargain.
This has been discussed to death. Again, I'll reference the suggestion that is a mistranslation by someone on this very board that claims to have a better understanding of Korean, and that the true translation was about his character as mischievous or unpredictable something to that effect. As opposed to him being a defacto villain. (I continue to try to find the reference) Spend 5 minutes googling reddit threads on Gustang and you will see multiple people referencing that is a mistranslation in fact.
Here is the blog in question, which to me translates as "It is also one of the characters that can be seen as a black screen in the whole stem." [출처]신의탑 2부 258화 후기 |작성자양념소고기
Sounds like it's saying he's simply "shady" to me (which is how multiple people have explained the translation is to be taken). Shady as in unpredictable, or working towards his own self-interests, sure, all day, but does that mean his goals are contradictory to Baam's or harmful to his existence? Nope.
Translated elsewhere in the fandom is supposedly: "In the overall narrative, he’s a villain as well…"
OK, so, a "villain" to WHO exactly? Not Baam, at least not currently, and it is not said he is antagonistic to Baam specifically. Is he a villain to the status quo and empire, yes, that actually matches up. FUG itself is a 'villain' to the story from the overall narrative of maintaining the peace, and Baam is also included in that. It's very well possible that Baam is just as much a 'villain' 'in the overall narrative' as Gustang, and even more so. Zahard certainly sees both Baam and Gustang as a "villain" right now...
"The overall narrative" of the tower isn't Baam's story per se. Baam is anti empire, as is FUG, as is Gustang. This is the subjectivity of sometimes calling people 'freedom fighters' and sometimes calling them 'terrorists' when they are the same people trying to accomplish the same thing, and what matters is the perspective you are describing.
Likewise, Rachel has been described as a "protagonist" by SIU, when that so far is also anything but the case, but she's actually been a foil to Baam and pretty much acted villainous. SIU is playing games and being coy and vague on purpose with his descriptors.
Likewise, Baam has been described as a "monster" while he is the righteous, freedom-fighter MC.
Something does not add up. I choose to go off of what the story ACTUALLY shows instead. The story shows something different from Gustang being a villain, Baam being a monster (bad implications), and Rachel being a protagonist.
SIU has not said he's a villain ***to Baam*** in any translation. And right now he's seen as a benefactor if anything.
In any event, assume they (the persons claiming it is a mistranslation) were talking out of their ass, so what?
"Will be" as in future tense does not negate the fact that they can both be of use to each other for the extended future, until their paths depart. No one at any time has ever suggested that Gustang will ALWAYS remain on friendly, mutual terms with Baam. It's completely reasonable to expect him to use Baam to get what he clearly wants - empire overthrown via Zahard's death, then to betray Baam, or even to preemptively betray right before by doing something like yanking the thorn out for his own uses (or trying). But that is all completely speculative, and we have no idea how or even if that will play out. Gustang could be an even further big bad down the road, even after Zahard.
This does not mean they could not be currently aligned in their goals.
The US allied with Russia against the Nazis before they started having a cold war between the two.
Guts fought alongside Griffith as an ally, right up to the point of Eclipse, which was obviously planned ahead. If you were reading Berserk, prior to Eclipse you would definitely say Guts and Griffith were allies and had similar goals and interests.
OFC anything is subject to change. White was Baam's ally at the Wall, even fighting on his behalf to save him, before he turned against him in Cat Tower.
I have made it painfully clear I'm talking about present Gustang, and present Gustang has positive, mutually-beneficial exchanges with Baam, has a mutual interest, has hope he performs in the future, and has made it clear he will be watching Baam's growth with baited breath. If he's planning to betray Baam after Baam serves his purpose by deposing Zahard, that's fine I enjoy it, but Baam has hardly outlived his use to Gustang (still ongoing this very week) and fulfilled his destiny which Gustang desires to see happen. Until then, Gustang still operates on the same 'team' as Baam, with the same at least intermediary goal in mind - killing Zahard. After that, all bets are off.
AS OF RIGHT NOW GUSTANG IS A 'FRIENDLY' TO BAAM, and certainly not a villain but rather someone actively rooting for him to succeed.
The 'but but but Gustang is a villain, SIU said so' discussion is exhausting and not quite so simple and clear-cut, and probably isn't even accurate. Assuredly, it's not currently accurate at the very least.
You are, once again, glossing over the entire context of Gustang being involved with Baam from the moment he came into the tower behind the scenes, planning far ahead and waiting for his arrival, what SIU says about Gustang's involvement in the entire story, and Gustang's performance so far. This isn't ME or the fandom hyping the FH's, it's the actual story and words of SIU. He calls him a "mastermind" and smartest man in the tower. Gustang has been shown REPEATEDLY to be scheming something big. You act like I'm just making shit up about him because I like his character. No, I'm actually following the story and author's notes. Of course we don't know the details. But expecting there to be a (real good) plan is precisely what the story shows, not the inverse. We've also already seen that Gustang has several layers to his plan against Zahard, and even contingency plans in regards to getting the bracelet. That's his MO and how he operates. If anyone is expecting something different from what the story is giving us, it's your take and not mine.
Not sure your point here? Other than to say Rei has dropped the ball on several events, which I have already said is the case (I even make the point that Gustang will prevail over Rei, clearly), but this is a vast departure from Gustang's track record and SIU's comments on his importance in the grand scheme of the story. Levi is also a one-off event, regardless. Exceptions prove the rule, as Levi's existence does. Sure, the FH's are not perfect, but Rei can't hold a candle to what Gustang can in regards to planning and success.
Gustang is betting on the MC, which we know will prevail, and the prophecy that surrounds him and precedes him (which accounts for characters in the story knowing Baam will prevail as they are not readers like we are). Rei has been shown as rather inept, disinterested, or both. That isn't a good comparison at all. It was not said, or shown, that Rei is a "mastermind" (SIU's word) or involved at every level of the ToG story (again, SIU's words), but rather Gustang. Even in the echelon of FH's, Rei and Gustang are incomparable: when it comes from everything from intellect, to success record, to involvement in the whole story, to closeness to the MC (and his cooperation), to being generally prepared, to importance on fighting the Big Bad (Zahard).
Expecting big things from Gustang is what the story tells us to do, and what the story's author tells us to do. You ignoring this and a general lack of expectations is a departure from the reality of the source material not the other way around. Your expectations are too low; mine are not too high. Evidence is on the side that has high expectations.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
TLDR?
From Gustang's mouth to Baam's face:
- Gustang maintains mutual interests WITH Baam
- Gustang maintains interest IN Baam
- So long as Baam has the thorn and continues to gain thorn pieces Baam retains value to Gustang, this was before they met and continues long after they met
- Gustang will stay in Baam's story, and is routing for him - his test or measure of Baam is not over or completed by far
- Gustang's interests in Baam is not passing, casual, or fleeting - or on the same level as other FH's
- Baam is integral in Gustang's grand scheme - he's also been very much anticipating Baam's arrival
- Gustang is not hostile, but cordial and friendly to Baam
- Gustang has desires from Baam, but is open about it, without threatening him as an associate with mutual interests would act
- Gustang thinks Baam could be a 'savior' figure
- Gustang respects Arlen, and Baam by extension, and her wishes as it pertains to Baam's role in the tower
- Gustang knows about Baam's fate, more so than even Baam, and has well-wishes Baam is successful
- Baam is EXTREMELY useful to Gustang, past the point of being a mere 'pawn' for him
- In the associated panels he helps Baam with curing Rachel free of charge, this is not how you treat an enemy
All in one or so panels.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Relevant. Showing that Gustang's expectations from Baam far exceed a mere one-time exchange of 'you do this for me, I'll do that for you - just this once' but are far greater in scope and time-frame:
Your post hasn't been glossed over. I simply don't think I need such big walls of text to convey my thoughts and because they take time plus make things even messier most of the tme.
I don't get why you are saying that I am saying that Gustang isn't interested in Baam at all when I said it would be stupid not to? Talking about words in details changes nothing here. Baam and Gustang "cooperating" once doesn't mean they are allies. Do you see Baam and Rachel as allies because they worked together more than once?
Everyone is interested in Baam for a good reason. A side of FUG wanted to use him to melt him and put him in the Thorn.
I don't visit the ToG subredddit excepted when I am looking for blog post translations. But mistranslations or not, you are exaggerating things here. Of course he'd be an antagonist to Baam, because the story is mostly from Baam's POV who is the MC, the hero, the "good guy" in this story.
And by don't know much or care" I was talking about Baam regarding Gustang. Still, I am sure Gustang doesn't care about Baam as a person, it's his status which matters. Gustang being more courteous because he has more respect for Baam doesn't change his status as pawn. This is what makes the difference between Baam's actual friends(allies) and many others, because his friends like him for who he is, while others want to abuse his powers for their own benefits and it's been a recurrent theme in this series.
I don't doubt gustang is against zahard. But that still doesn't mean gustang specifically wants zahard dead or that he is pro bam. His agenda is entirely unknown to us. It's possible you are right of course but I am inclined to maintaining my position of extreme skepticism of gustang's intentions while the specifics of his agenda and motives are not revealed and contextualized.
Gustang, the smartest guy in the tower, knowingly put himself in a position that puts him at odds with Zahard's army, now another FH directly (possibly more in the future), and with an order that his entire family be wiped from the tower. Unless he wants to run for all eternity (not the case as we plainly see as he's showing up to do something preemptively), he's going to have to commit to combat, which of course means killing a lot of people, and doing something about the irregulars that will oppose him, Zahard included, at some point as well. There's no way he didn't know this would be an outcome. He also plainly states he wants to see if Baam can use the thorn to "make change" in the tower, and the method of that change is killing Zahard, as per Enryu's instructions and Arlen's prophecy - it's kind of the whole point of the thorn. Combined with the fact that he saved the thorn for Baam, as was the plan all along, it is pretty safe to say Gustang is beyond just at odds with Zahard ideologically, in the realm of actually being openly hostile to Zahard's life. And those surrounding him (up to and including other FHs) by obvious extension. Saying nothing of what the bracelet even does, but it's clearly something that triggered Zahard.
I mean, if I were funneling weapons to Russia, I can't act surprised that they end up using them in Ukraine. Or vice-versa. Gustang is arming one power that is specifically to be used to end another power, with the tower equivalent of nukes. Baam with thorns, aided by Gustang, is a mortal thread to Zahard. There's no getting around that.
Bam is pretty much utilizing fug towards his own selfish goals though. He is not in it to stick it to zahard, the family heads or his commanders. His relationship with other fug members is still potentially wonky at best. He is close to jinsung of course but outside of that the only one that might sort of be friends with him is yama, who turned out to be a cuddly puppy rather than almost cartoonishly evil. Outside of that his position towards karaka is probably something like tolerance considering what karaka did at the workshop battle. he was definitely out for blood with white. While from a plot perspective bam is rising as a major fug power bam still has not made a conscious choice to take any leadership position within fug.
So, are you just thinking out loud about Baam's greater role in FUG, or do you really think Baam won't square off against Zahard and the other FHs that support him, and their forces by extension, which is what we see playing out? Is this anything more than musings and a thought experiment? I think 99% of the fandom understands Baam is going to face Zahard in some kind of showdown, and in the meantime Zahard is trying to actively kill Baam, forcing Baam to attack the attackers, and get stronger in the process.
OF COURSE Baam will continue to acquire power and thorn shards. Now, how is the thorn to be used? Unless the prophecy is wrong, it's to take down the baby-killer. That has been the trajectory of Baam's role in the tower since 1F, and even before considering the prophecy, and Enryu's actions on 43F.
But bam still hasn't made any choices regarding whether to pursue this destiny that has been placed in front of him. He might eventually but the choice is still important. To me an important moment in the story was when urek told bam not to pay that much attention to the tower's shenanigans and remain true to himself. While this doesn't mean he won't end up chosing to pursue zahard, I would maintain that how bam does this is entirely up for grabs.
Baam can take any means to the same end he wants to, it's an illusion of choice (at least when it comes to fighting Z forces for the foreseeable future). The tower, and Zahard, is against him, and in the most hostile of ways. He can't 'power of friendship' his way out of conflict and mayhem, which is exactly what we're seeing, and he can't not continue to grow stronger and acquire pieces of the thorn in order to fight stronger battles. Do you think Baam won't finish the thorn as well? Isn't that a bit silly?
Maybe in the final battle Baam will have a moment of clarity, and stop short of the killing blow (with the full thorn in effect), a la Luke Skywalker in ROTJ, but make no mistake, they are on a collision path either way. Zahard is already trying to PERSONALLY choke the life out of Baam, yet again, this life around in the tower. How much more clear does it have to be that Zahard will stop at nothing to stop Baam (via death is his go-to), and Baam's only choice is to play defense or offense, but he can't opt out unless he goes into hiding forever and gets facial plastic surgery, a nip tuck here and there, wears skirts and maybe even starts going by 'Viola'
And? You said you called BS on him testing Baam. He SAYS he is testing Baam, to Baam's face (and twice behind his back). He then makes it painfully clear he's orchestrating Baam getting the thorn, to see how he does with it. He says this again on 30F (behind Baam's back). He later says to Unknown that this will be a trial for Baam; sink or swim, aka a test.
That is... testing Baam.
You 'call of BS' was in regard to Gustang testing Baam, and implied that Gustang was only using him in a one-time transaction to get stuff and nothing more. That call is incorrect, but don't subsequently move the goalposts and make it about Gustang's larger intentions instead of the claim that this was merely transactional in a one-off event to acquire booty. Gustang IS testing Baam (has been and will continue to do so), and he ALSO got trinkets out of an exchange, as well as further armed Baam with more thorn fragments to further continue his experiment prepared long in advance to make sure Baam gets the thorn to see how he does with it.
That Gustang was able to get more from the exchange than Baam speaks to the former's intellect, but it doesn't mean Baam didn't somehow benefit either. And, it doesn't mean Baam is unaware of Gustang's greater plans involving Baam when Gustang says as much to his face. Baam is naive about a lot of things, but not how much Gustang expects from Baam. It also doesn't mean that Gustang wasn't rooting for Baam, and hoping for his success, and also hoping for his continued success.
And was this even to bam's benefit? It led to bam being directly under zahard's sight. What would have happened if bam didn't go to the hidden floor under gustang's directions? He would have probably continued his revolution training, gotten at least most of the power boosts he got at the hidden floor by training with the god of guardians and then moved on with his life without rattling the hornet's nest. Did gustang know that messing with data zahard would/could alert the real zahard? Was he supposed to deliver the thorn without expecting anything in return? Did it matter to gustang if bam passed his tests?
Well, I am not sure what you don't get here. How does it benefit Baam? He gets a thorn out of the deal, which he readily accepted, and he gets it up front. Baam... want's thorns and wants power. There is no other greater weapon in the tower. And yet Gustang gave it to Baam in advance. How is that not a benefit exactly?
OFC it matters to Gustang. He doesn't get the bracelet if the two don't perform. He even says this to Unknown offscreen in in S2E259:
(after mentioning giving the thorn to Baam, and the 'gift' to the pawn, Rachel) "Whether that power ends up being a disaster or a gift depends on those two themselves"
Which exactly coincides with the FACT that Gustang is testing Baam, and hoping he performs, which is exactly what he told Baam. That line indicates a test of sink or swim, it cannot be any more clear than that. He says what comes next is up to Baam and Rachel, a test by any other word.
WHAT isn't, because I just repeated what Gustang said, and you later agreed to, but you aren't quoting me so I have no idea what you're taking contention with.
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The point made there is that the 43rd floor residents were essentially happier with the spell, trapped in the floor and all. Because they were afraid of death. With a dash of them potentially leaking info and whatnot.
LOL. Dude, for the SECOND TIME I did not say they would all immediately die or would all die from merely leaving the floor or whatever it is you are arguing against - I pointedly said that they would be AT RISK of dying, as they are no longer immortal, and they are now mortal if the spell is reversed. You JUST said they were afraid of death, why... because they would be able to die, i.e., "at risk of dying," which is what I said verbatim. Once you become mortal you will die unless you obtain immortality (again... they already have that in effect), that is a simple fact. To be mortal and not immortal is to be at risk of dying, which WILL happen some day, and they can avoid that scenario by staying on FoD.
So, I'm not sure why you keep trying to split hairs here about something I didn't say, just to say what I already said.
Gustang talks about tower residents as insignificant bugs and we learned from data eduan that basically all family heads are currently like that. Now, it's absolutely the case the case that how each family head treats the bugs might vary. If anything I would argue that's a pretty solid bet. But there's absolutely no doubt that in the end all the family heads see tower residents as outright inferior beings.
Great. So the answer to my question of 'do we have any evidence of Gustang mistreating what he sees as bugs?' is a solid NO then. Which is my point. He can think he's superior to bugs as any bug collector looking at bugs in an insect pet enclosure, and yet he doesn't have to mistreat them. He could even do the opposite, giving concern to their well-being, which is what those that collect living insects tend to do anyways.
- We ONLY have examples of him being good or fair or protective of 'bugs'
- We have ZERO examples of the opposite.
Any reference to Gustang mistreating regulars is an assumption, and currently baseless, and actually counter to what we've seen.
Your post hasn't been glossed over. I simply don't think I need such big walls of text to convey my thoughts and because they take time plus make things even messier most of the tme.
My point is you have argued points that ignore things I've already said - which source the material itself. If you had a better source than the material (or contradictory evidence) yourself then it is missing, but it's like arguing Rachel isn't a real irregular when someone just said she was because SIU specifically took the time to say so, and posted the blog saying as much. In that fictional event, it would seem like they are ignoring facts and previously discussed points just to repeat a talking point already addressed. That is what I meant, as your post didn't actually acknowledge what I said or the material screenshots I posted either, they have just repeated some points that have already been addressed previously.
I haven't said such a thing. I said you are DOWNPLAYING that interest (making light of it, minimizing the importance of it, comparing it to the other FHs which is more casual or uninvolved), which, for Gustang, is multiple of times greater levels of interest and more involved at every level - per SIU and per the story itself - than every other FH. You said that of course Gustang would be interested just like any other FH would be. Well, not all their interests or involvement is the same. Gustang specifically was planning behind the scenes for Baam's arrival (possibly for thousands of years even), and has been overlooking his development, and PERSONALLY assisting his growth from the start (he's there at every thorn fragment acquisition), and by also working with those that are doing that as well. That far exceeds any other FH's more casual interest in comparison. It makes Gustang a key figure (ahem, the ONLY key figure of the FHs) to Baam, his growth, what happens with Zahard, and the overall story itself, and no other FH comes close to this level by far. Gustang is the ONLY ONE using Baam - or working with him - at any level, and he's been doing so before Baam even became aware of it. This sets Gustang's involvement with Baam on an entirely different level, and of course plays into the absolute fact that their relationship hasn't cooled or ceased - which is what you made the claim of, that Gustang had simply got what he wanted and moved on as a one-time employer. That simply isn't true.
Gustang's hopes for Baam have long preceded the story starting on 1F, and extend far into the development and conclusion of Baam's story in ToG, and as I have shown are not fleeting in the least. This largely is due to the fact that Gustang alone among the FHs is keyed into who Baam is exactly, what he represents, the prophecy around him, what he will ultimately do, and the role the thorn plays (Gustang has one shard in personal safekeeping, and is aware of FUG's ownership of the first one, probably is aware of 3 and 4 as well if past performance is any indication) in all this. That is not a 'temporary' or one-time relationship, and it perfectly fits in with what we know Gustang knows of Arlen's diary and stewardship of the 2nd thorn fragment. It also happens to be exactly what he says to Baam re: testing him to see if he performs, echoed AGAIN off-screen to unknown (I quoted it above that he's saying the rest is up to Baam now), and AGAIN on 30F. Here is how the wiki summates 30F:
"Gustang made another appearance, talking again with the person from the CD player. The man from the machine stated that he allowed Gustang to control the Workshop Battle however he wanted and asked him about his plan. Gustang replied that he will watch how the boy dealt with the hardships as long as the competitors didn't cross the line while seeing how strong the "real Thorn" got when it was in the hands of an Irregular."
Which pointedly shows Gustang is taking personal interests in Baam (that this was planned out in advance), and is testing his response, at this time behind his back, and later to his face on FoD.
Gustang then remarks "the adventure has just begun," which is of course a reference to the fact that his interest in Baam is ongoing and will continue for quite some time, which we see play out on FoD in part.
At the end of FoD Gustang once again remarks how the 2nd thorn is "delivered" - this implies advance planning (again, mused as being Gustang's plan by Garam mere chapters earlier), or an "order" of sorts (again, pre-planned). Gustang and Unknown long had plans to get Baam the thorn to see if he is who they expect him to be, the child of prophecy. 1 and 2 down, 3 and 4 to go. "will you be the one to take the thorn and change the tower?" This is exactly what Gustang WANTS to see, and helps to happen. These are the facts.
Gustang's interest and value in Baam extends far into the past and far into the future, and that is an actual fact. He's also entrusting Baam with one of the most important resources in the tower, the thorn, which isn't something Gustang can ever replace or recreate. You wouldn't do that without inherent trust that Baam is the child of prophecy or that he will perform. Gustang is calculating but not stupid, and the thorn is more precious a resource than gold or platinum or whatever tower equivalent you can imagine. He wouldn't be careless or cavalier with who gets the thorn if he shut down an entire floor in part to protect a piece long in advance, putting himself at risk in doing so if he's ever discovered. Gustang TRUSTS that Baam will perform, as he is the destined one.
Talking about words in details changes nothing here. Baam and Gustang "cooperating" once doesn't mean they are allies. Do you see Baam and Rachel as allies because they worked together more than once?
I already explained Baam and Rachel's relationship as a type of allies in the greater story - above. They are at least allied to the same people, who share a base goal. I went into detail about how two factions can be hostile and still allies all the same. And how they can be working for different ultimate end goals with similar intermediate goals as well. I don't know why you'd ask me such a thing unless you simply aren't reading my responses to you, for you then to respond to them.
In any event this has become a discussion of definitions of words, which is a buzzkill. You seem to take issue with the usage of "allies" - message received loud and clear. Call their relationship whatever you'd like, it certainly isn't the same as Baam and Gustang, which have an entirely different history and connection, and is no way similar to Baam x Rachel. In the later case, neither is currently behaving like the other is a hostile, but more of a friendly, and even relying on each other for mutual benefit. That's what you'd do with an ally of sorts, not a villain to you.
And yet they are working with Baam, fighting alongside him, and towards the same/similar goals. White is/was a good example of this. Karaka as well. Kind of like allies do, or as I said 'allies of convenience' in a temporary alliance to achieve a goal.
Again, like I said the Western Forces and the Soviets were ALLIES against the Germans before they turned around to then become enemies (which could have very well still been planned ahead once Germany was neutralized). Becoming cold war enemies at a later point doesn't somehow negate the fact that both worked together as allies to accomplish a unified goal. No one would say that the Soviets and Americans were not allies in WW2, a period of time. And this period of time revolves around fighting Zahard. Planning to backstab at a later point does not mean you aren't allies until you do. You can't backstab someone if they don't trust you in the first place. Musing that Gustang will betray Baam around Zahard, perhaps after/during, is totally end game stuff. That's utter speculation at this point. And long before that happens, both Baam and Gustang continue to benefit from each other's efforts, and both benefit from Baam getting stronger via the thorn fragment acquisitions (among other PUs).
The point isn't that you do or don't, or should or shouldn't. The point is that *someone here* with a better understanding of the Korean language than I (which is zero) thinks it is a mistranslation, and has posted here just that. But, seeing as that post and user is not immediately easy to find, you COULD take my word for it, but if you need absolute proof there is a large body of people that also believe that way, spend 30 seconds googling "is gustang a villain" and no less than 3 reddit threads come up with multiple people talking about that blog post being a mistranslation, so it's not just something I'm asserting in a vacuum or making up for my own convenience. So, if you can't find evidence here, you can find it there. Maybe ask those individuals where they are getting their info - I read reddit, but I'm only a lurker. That place is a cesspool.
Eh, no. Because IF a mistranslation (evidence exist that it is), then your entire claim that Gustang is a villain to Baam (or anyone for that matter) is invalidated.
If not a mistranslation, the blog does not make reference to who Gustang is a villain towards. Right now, Gustang is a villain to Zahard, not Baam, seeing as one is trying to have it in for him and his family and the other is showing willingness to work for him and prove his fate to him. Subject to change, but that does not change current events, and a host of dialogue and lore that says Gustang is waiting on Baam to prove himself as the one taking the thorn to kill the king, Zahard. That isn't my perspective or exaggerations, that is literally what the story shows, and what the character in question says (backed up by deeds and other dialogue Baam is not privy to).
Only this, again, glosses over the point already made above: which is by that logic Baam as a 'good guy' (arguable) wouldn't be also called a "monster," which has obvious negative connotations. And Rachel as a 'bad person' wouldn't be called a "protagonist" (meaning good) by SIU. It's like an inversion of what we're reading - so those descriptions are extremely sus and seem to be playful by SIU not exactly cold definitions, as he's known to be coy and vague. By that extension - saying, if correct (highly debatable), that Gustang is a "villain" to the "overall narrative" ("shady" still makes much more sense from the google translation available) still does not explain the perspective of who Gustang is a villain towards. You are assuming that is Baam's narrative, and not the narrative of the tower itself. Baam is on the same level as Gustang here in opposing empire, so right now they are equally 'villainous' to Gustang or the status quo, as is FUG. It is a FACT that SIU has not explained that Gustang is a villain towards Baam, you are filling in the blanks with guesses and as such that blog does not negate what we are reading in the material itself.
Citing the blog which seems to (currently) oppose the story is the act of missing the forest for the trees. It is also extremely vague, if not outright wrong.
In any event, what matters is that CURRENTLY Baam and Gustang are not enemies, nor is either treating their relationship as such, and there have been multiple explicit references for that relationship to be ongoing (and long in the making), and Baam knows this and still chooses to work with/for him, which means Baam trusts Gustang SO FAR. Gustang is ALSO using Baam's actions at the Nest to take the time to infiltrate, probably preemptively strike, the LPB forces, who have been made his enemy. So he is STILL benefiting from Baam, and Baam is more than likely (at the time of this writing) to still be benefiting from Gustang.
And by don't know much or care" I was talking about Baam regarding Gustang. Still, I am sure Gustang doesn't care about Baam as a person, it's his status which matters. Gustang being more courteous because he has more respect for Baam doesn't change his status as pawn. This is what makes the difference between Baam's actual friends(allies) and many others, because his friends like him for who he is, while others want to abuse his powers for their own benefits and it's been a recurrent theme in this series.
You seem to be operating under some understanding or assumption that you have to be friends, friendly, equals, or even respectful to function as allies. I never claimed Gustang is Baam's friend, or even equal (though Gustang certainly views them closer as equals, he even says as much to Urek). I said they are operating as allies do, with some evidence of trust that they other isn't hostile or an enemy, and that their goals are currently largely in alignment, and that some level of operational understanding exists between the two.
This take is as bad as the guy in the chapter discussion claiming that Gustang can't be working with Baam because he's not a Baam "stan" (groan). Were the Americans 'stans' of the Russians in WW2? Of course not, but we got along long enough to accomplish a task. Countless more historical examples of two groups coming together than share not background or cultural interests (in fact each having their own greater interests), sometimes even with a history of hostilities, to be allies for the time being. This extends to manga, or even this story intra-FUG. One doesn't have to be kissing Baam's ass up the tower and waiting on his every order to be operating as an ally at some level.
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Side note: I'm not sure why anyone would wait until NOW, of all times, to claim that Gustang and Baam's relationship was a one-off event and not ongoing, or that it is in any way hostile (as a 'villain' towards Baam), completely ignoring the entirety of the story in the process. Or that Gustang isn't continuing to rely on Baam's growth and fighting his way up the tower (like he, ahem, said he would be doing).
Now, when we have Gustang showing up in a pincer-move against the LPB forces, where both Baam AND Gustang are about to benefit tremendously (yet again!) from the other's involvement against a mutual enemy/task. Baam is literally going to get a save from Gustang here, and Gustang is likewise relying on Rei being preoccupied to Baam to strike behind his back. I guess it is mere coincidence, as opposed to Gustang knowing EXACTLY what is going on, and Baam's location and development/continued success in the process, which he has been closely monitoring and awaiting since before Baam even showed up on 1F...
Seems like 2 weeks ago, pre Gustang showing up, you might have leg to stand on with that thought process. But not really (see wall of text above).
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With recent events, some takes in this thread will not age well (rather quickly even) me thinks.
Frankly, it looks like Gustang is moving to get Rei off of Baam. There's no other explanation for his timing.
Gustang, the smartest guy in the tower, knowingly put himself in a position that puts him at odds with Zahard's army, now another FH directly (possibly more in the future), and with an order that his entire family be wiped from the tower. Unless he wants to run for all eternity (not the case as we plainly see as he's showing up to do something preemptively), he's going to have to commit to combat, which of course means killing a lot of people, and doing something about the irregulars that will oppose him, Zahard included, at some point as well. There's no way he didn't know this would be an outcome. He also plainly states he wants to see if Baam can use the thorn to "make change" in the tower, and the method of that change is killing Zahard, as per Enryu's instructions and Arlen's prophecy - it's kind of the whole point of the thorn. Combined with the fact that he saved the thorn for Baam, as was the plan all along, it is pretty safe to say Gustang is beyond just at odds with Zahard ideologically, in the realm of actually being openly hostile to Zahard's life. And those surrounding him (up to and including other FHs) by obvious extension. Saying nothing of what the bracelet even does, but it's clearly something that triggered Zahard.
I mean, if I were funneling weapons to Russia, I can't act surprised that they end up using them in Ukraine. Or vice-versa. Gustang is arming one power that is specifically to be used to end another power, with the tower equivalent of nukes. Baam with thorns, aided by Gustang, is a mortal thread to Zahard. There's no getting around that.
So, are you just thinking out loud about Baam's greater role in FUG, or do you really think Baam won't square off against Zahard and the other FHs that support him, and their forces by extension, which is what we see playing out? Is this anything more than musings and a thought experiment? I think 99% of the fandom understands Baam is going to face Zahard in some kind of showdown, and in the meantime Zahard is trying to actively kill Baam, forcing Baam to attack the attackers, and get stronger in the process.
OF COURSE Baam will continue to acquire power and thorn shards. Now, how is the thorn to be used? Unless the prophecy is wrong, it's to take down the baby-killer. That has been the trajectory of Baam's role in the tower since 1F, and even before considering the prophecy, and Enryu's actions on 43F.
Baam can take any means to the same end he wants to, it's an illusion of choice (at least when it comes to fighting Z forces for the foreseeable future). The tower, and Zahard, is against him, and in the most hostile of ways. He can't 'power of friendship' his way out of conflict and mayhem, which is exactly what we're seeing, and he can't not continue to grow stronger and acquire pieces of the thorn in order to fight stronger battles. Do you think Baam won't finish the thorn as well? Isn't that a bit silly?
Maybe in the final battle Baam will have a moment of clarity, and stop short of the killing blow (with the full thorn in effect), a la Luke Skywalker in ROTJ, but make no mistake, they are on a collision path either way. Zahard is already trying to PERSONALLY choke the life out of Baam, yet again, this life around in the tower. How much more clear does it have to be that Zahard will stop at nothing to stop Baam (via death is his go-to), and Baam's only choice is to play defense or offense, but he can't opt out unless he goes into hiding forever and gets facial plastic surgery, a nip tuck here and there, wears skirts and maybe even starts going by 'Viola'
And? You said you called BS on him testing Baam. He SAYS he is testing Baam, to Baam's face (and twice behind his back). He then makes it painfully clear he's orchestrating Baam getting the thorn, to see how he does with it. He says this again on 30F (behind Baam's back). He later says to Unknown that this will be a trial for Baam; sink or swim, aka a test.
That is... testing Baam.
You 'call of BS' was in regard to Gustang testing Baam, and implied that Gustang was only using him in a one-time transaction to get stuff and nothing more. That call is incorrect, but don't subsequently move the goalposts and make it about Gustang's larger intentions instead of the claim that this was merely transactional in a one-off event to acquire booty. Gustang IS testing Baam (has been and will continue to do so), and he ALSO got trinkets out of an exchange, as well as further armed Baam with more thorn fragments to further continue his experiment prepared long in advance to make sure Baam gets the thorn to see how he does with it.
That Gustang was able to get more from the exchange than Baam speaks to the former's intellect, but it doesn't mean Baam didn't somehow benefit either. And, it doesn't mean Baam is unaware of Gustang's greater plans involving Baam when Gustang says as much to his face. Baam is naive about a lot of things, but not how much Gustang expects from Baam. It also doesn't mean that Gustang wasn't rooting for Baam, and hoping for his success, and also hoping for his continued success.
Well, I am not sure what you don't get here. How does it benefit Baam? He gets a thorn out of the deal, which he readily accepted, and he gets it up front. Baam... want's thorns and wants power. There is no other greater weapon in the tower. And yet Gustang gave it to Baam in advance. How is that not a benefit exactly?
OFC it matters to Gustang. He doesn't get the bracelet if the two don't perform. He even says this to Unknown offscreen in in S2E259:
(after mentioning giving the thorn to Baam, and the 'gift' to the pawn, Rachel) "Whether that power ends up being a disaster or a gift depends on those two themselves"
Which exactly coincides with the FACT that Gustang is testing Baam, and hoping he performs, which is exactly what he told Baam. That line indicates a test of sink or swim, it cannot be any more clear than that. He says what comes next is up to Baam and Rachel, a test by any other word.
WHAT isn't, because I just repeated what Gustang said, and you later agreed to, but you aren't quoting me so I have no idea what you're taking contention with.
Which is... what I said.
LOL. Dude, for the SECOND TIME I did not say they would all immediately die or would all die from merely leaving the floor or whatever it is you are arguing against - I pointedly said that they would be AT RISK of dying, as they are no longer immortal, and they are now mortal if the spell is reversed. You JUST said they were afraid of death, why... because they would be able to die, i.e., "at risk of dying," which is what I said verbatim. Once you become mortal you will die unless you obtain immortality (again... they already have that in effect), that is a simple fact. To be mortal and not immortal is to be at risk of dying, which WILL happen some day, and they can avoid that scenario by staying on FoD.
So, I'm not sure why you keep trying to split hairs here about something I didn't say, just to say what I already said.
Great. So the answer to my question of 'do we have any evidence of Gustang mistreating what he sees as bugs?' is a solid NO then. Which is my point. He can think he's superior to bugs as any bug collector looking at bugs in an insect pet enclosure, and yet he doesn't have to mistreat them. He could even do the opposite, giving concern to their well-being, which is what those that collect living insects tend to do anyways.
- We ONLY have examples of him being good or fair or protective of 'bugs'
- We have ZERO examples of the opposite.
Any reference to Gustang mistreating regulars is an assumption, and currently baseless, and actually counter to what we've seen.
So... you have absolute certainty that gustang's only conceivable, possible and exclusive goal is to unburden zahard's neck of it's head? Even though his motivations and goals are entirely unknown to us? I am not even saying gustang doesn't want zahard dead, my point is basically that there are more conceivable scenarios. Even if he does want zahard dead, we don't even know why he wants that. Lore wise we know that gustang was the one behind the princess program, zahard tanked said program.. And we still don't know what exactly motivated either character to do those things.
I suppose there's a bit of thinking out loud here? The point I am making is that as of right now Bam is not set on murdering zahard. Which is of course a different thing from that being his fate or this happening at some point in the future. I don't doubt zahard is on a collision course with bam but that's not necessarily a reflection of bam's current mindset.
Regarding the prophesy... I've been wondering if this is something which bam should pursue or whether doing it is a good thing. Other characters seem to be acting based on said prophecy which at the moment is what is actually fueling bam's eventual conflict with zahard. But it seems a tad self fulfilling. I will maintain my skepticism towards it for now at least.
You say moving the goalpost, I say it's adding more context . To me it very much looks like gustang has been using bam to give the hornet nest a good old kick... What would have happened if bam rejected gustang's offer? Then he didn't deliver the thorn? Even though he was presumably supposed to and presumably the thorn belongs to bam anyways?
Gustang hasn't bitch slapped anyone directly but the implication remains in story that tower residents to him are basically nothing. There's no reason for the standard here to be that he has to be seen on screen treating tower natives as worthless. That said, there are more instances that show how gustang thinks of himself and tower natives.
- The po bidao dude who talked with the army as gustang took rachel and yura made the point that they were insignificant and unworthy to even speak gustang's name.
- The same dude makes the point that gustang has an omniscient and omnipotent intellect.
- Gustang finds it amusing that urek has a friend among the little souls from the floor of death.
Rather than Baam. Story about the 10 great leaders sounds great
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Or maybe the flashback of any of them before entering the tower????
I guess their place of birth has fight things as well as the tower. Not much of course.. considering how long ToG have been, we all Will death waiting for their stories. Just kind of a little??? Like wang2 Yas and nen2 past stories..
I think Gustang went along with the original 13 out of pure curiosity, and the chance to fulfil his perverted lust for experimentation and experience. He had always thought that his unmatched intellect earned him the status of an indispensable ally and thus an equal to Zahard.
When Zahard unceremoniously entrapped Enne, Gustang began to realize that Zahard didn't see him as anything special, just another tool like anyone else.
Gustang is helping Bam because he sees in Bam may be the tool he needs to undermine Zahard, and show that his, Gustang's unmatched intellect makes him the superior one.
Zahard's entrapment of Enne is seen as a sign that Zahard has no more respect or recognition for Gustang than anyone else. In other terms, Gustang thinks Zahard considers him as much a bug as Gustang thinks of normal people as bugs. This is something Gustang can't tolerate or accept. He is using Bam as much as he is helping Bam.
To Gustang, he is the one fit to use others and be acknowledged as the superior, he has found out that Zahard doesn't consider him that way so now he has to prove to Zahard and the whole tower that he helped Zahard to get where he now stands, and he can just as well take Zahard down thus proving his overall superiority.
When Zahard unceremoniously entrapped Enne, Gustang began to realize that Zahard didn't see him as anything special, just another tool like anyone else.
Gustang is helping Bam because he sees in Bam may be the tool he needs to undermine Zahard, and show that his, Gustang's unmatched intellect makes him the superior one.
Gustang had made the puppet who protect the Floor of Death and the Thorn fragment after Enruy killed the Adminitrator long ago but Enne Zahard incident was 500 years ago.
The incident can't be the cause.
It's probably older when Arlen fighted Zahard.
When urek used his wormhole or something to that effect gustang made the point that doing so was pretty dangerous. Gustang can warp but I don't think it's an innate ability he can use at will. I think he either has a pretty high level item that allows that or perhaps he coordinates this with folk at his mothership. Lore wise it's a pretty huge deal to be able to warp around unrestricted.
In the newest chapter (548) Rachel was seem chat to someone using Emily, that someone said she has asked the family head (Gustang) how can Gustang let anyone chat with him casually asking an univited guest as slave?
In Beleriru side, he claimed himself soon to be leading Po Bidau. As well as didn't had hobby to slavery. But Rachel insisted he would like a blue cat. Did he from Agnis family too? So she is sure he'll hate AA. Or what you think?
As far as I understood PB's motheship is on the same floor as the LPB mothership so Gustang only warped on the same floor while Traumerei warped from floor 50(?) to wherever floor his mothership is this could mean they can't warp through floors without warping ships but they can do it on the same floor, just like Traumerei warped in front of Nennen on the flashback.
In the newest chapter (548) Rachel was seem chat to someone using Emily, that someone said she has asked the family head (Gustang) how can Gustang let anyone chat with him casually asking an univited guest as slave?
In Beleriru side, he claimed himself soon to be leading Po Bidau. As well as didn't had hobby to slavery. But Rachel insisted he would like a blue cat. Did he from Agnis family too? So she is sure he'll hate AA. Or what you think?
As far as I understood PB's motheship is on the same floor as the LPB mothership so Gustang only warped on the same floor while Traumerei warped from floor 50(?) to wherever floor his mothership is this could mean they can't warp through floors without warping ships but they can do it on the same floor, just like Traumerei warped in front of Nennen on the flashback.
. To me it very much looks like gustang has been using bam to give the hornet nest a good old kick... What would have happened if bam rejected gustang's offer? Then he didn't deliver the thorn? Even though he was presumably supposed to and presumably the thorn belongs to bam anyways? 
