TV House of The Dragon

[kkck]

Well they did make a point of showing those gigantic incense "dispensers" at the camp they were sitting at lmao



Obviously, we can say they are hatched with magic, but we're not exactly certain if blood magic is always required or not, given we know that's how Dany hatched hers. As far as how Dreamfyre (or possibly Vhagar's) eggs ended up in Pentos is pretty much plotted out in Fire & Blood. The short of it is that Dreamfyre's original rider, Rhaena Targaryen (Aegon the Conqueror's first grandchild) had a female "friend" from House Farman named Elissa Farman, that got up to a whole bunch of hijinks and adventures. She basically stole a clutch of eggs from Dragonstone and it's generally assumed they were Dreamfyre's due to her relationship with Rhaena as well as the she-dragon's reputation for being prolific.

Alys Rivers finding dragon eggs at Harrenhal isn't really talked about directly in Fire & Blood, but there were rumors about her having a dragon. IIRC it was treated more as hearsay since her having one wasn't really of much consequence in the story. But Rhaena Targaryen spent her later years ruling Harrenhal so the idea that Dreamfyre could have laid eggs there isn't farfetched.

Dammit, I completely missed that the point of those was to shield Ormund from the plebeian stench. Made me check the scene on youtube. The guy still has more restrain than I thought he did.

What throws me off is that in theory dragons at some point existed in nature (though technically it's not impossible some valyrian magic or breeding created the). In my headcanon it makes more sense that magic weakened in the world as a result of dragons disappearing if they were already just part of the world. This makes less sense if they were breed or magic-ed into existence by valyrians with magic. Of course with magic and with GRRM making overt efforts to keep things as nebulous as possible anything could go. Blood magic is something valyrians were familiar with though I am not sure of what Danny did which counted as such. Technically mas... mirri... durr or whatever her name was used blood magic prior but this was merely in proximity to the eggs, not even used on them. And then Danny went into the flames with drogo's corpse and the witch and the dragons hatched. It also looks like targaryens could hatch dragons by the time time of the dance and it doesn't look like they were skilled with blood or any magic. At this point I think dragons stopped hatching simply because their numbers were reduced enough that there wasn't enough magic for them to hatch until danny accidentally stumbled into a mass of it or something.

The bit with Farman sounds like a pretty strong theory. It definitely looks like Alys and her dragon will be somewhat prominent in the tv show at least. Lots of focus on her and aemond.

 

[xi0]

What throws me off is that in theory dragons at some point existed in nature (though technically it's not impossible some valyrian magic or breeding created the). In my headcanon it makes more sense that magic weakened in the world as a result of dragons disappearing if they were already just part of the world. This makes less sense if they were breed or magic-ed into existence by valyrians with magic. Of course with magic and with GRRM making overt efforts to keep things as nebulous as possible anything could go. Blood magic is something valyrians were familiar with though I am not sure of what Danny did which counted as such. Technically mas... mirri... durr or whatever her name was used blood magic prior but this was merely in proximity to the eggs, not even used on them. And then Danny went into the flames with drogo's corpse and the witch and the dragons hatched. It also looks like targaryens could hatch dragons by the time time of the dance and it doesn't look like they were skilled with blood or any magic. At this point I think dragons stopped hatching simply because their numbers were reduced enough that there wasn't enough magic for them to hatch until danny accidentally stumbled into a mass of it or something.

Yes, what is said in the source material The World of Ice and Fire is that dragons come from the east, like far, far east like the shadowlands. There's all kinds of crazy shit said about places the further they are from Westeros. This is the area with Asshai-by-the-shadow, a city where no children live and not too far from the city of winged men (which was referenced in the show this season by Daemon iirc lol). Basically dragonlords became a thing during the Great Empire of the Dawn, a vast mythical empire that existed well before any others. The formation of Valyria happened well after this. There's also tales of dragons being in Westeros centuries before the Targaryens or any other Valyrians were said to have visited. The characteristic of some First Men houses are closer to Valyrians than they are to the Andals, like the Daynes. There's fused, black stone that was famous in the Valyrian places and outposts all over Westeros as well. Basically the history that people think they know in-universe is at best very incomplete. In my opinion and many others, ASOIAF is actually a post-apocalyptic story. There's just too many structures and things in the story that have existed since the distant past that make no sense given the kinds of medieval technologies we know are present. The Wall is the best example of this, as well as the way in which Storm's End is constructed. There's no way either of those things are built by anyone living in the present story. The people in-universe explain those things as "magic", but that sort of thing is often a stand-in for science or technologies people do not understand. GRRM's background as a science fiction writer first solidifies this idea even further IMO.

In any case we know that Valyrians were obsessed with genetics, and it's theorized that the magic involved in hatching dragons might be genetically inherited. There's a long-held theory that it is a female-recessive gene. If you also go along with the theory that the Maesters and the Citadel are very much anti-magic and anti-dragon and had a hand in the demise of dragons (hinted at enough in HoTD, especially earlier on), the resistance Westeros has put up against female Targaryen rulers is multi-faceted. Dreamfyre Rhaena was the first female heir that was passed over and she also happened to own the she-dragon Dreamfyre which is the most prolific female dragon we know of. Rhaenys, the Queen That Never Was, was also passed over in favor of her cousin Viserys I, who only rode Balerion once before the old dragon died. Rhaenys is a descendant of Aegon the Conqueror's younger sister Rhaenys just like Dreamfyre Rhaena was, so it's possible they had the same recessive genetic trait. The same could be said of Dany even though it's further down the line. We also know the Tragedy At Summerhall is rumored to have happened because Aegon V tried invoking magic to hatch dragons, and it's possible it was a failure because he did not possess the genes necessary since he was male. As an aside the whole gene thing is not out of left field when it comes to GRRM, it's something that is all throughout his bibliography, that's why it's suggested so much.

I think people assume blood magic was involved with Dany's hatching of her dragons because it's what Mirri Maz Duur used to "heal" Drogo, the witch took Dany's unborn child Rhaego in return. "Only death can pay for life". The Red Comet that shows up in the first book/season is said to enhance magic in general, and Dany then sacrificed the witch along with whatever was left of Drogo and hatched her dragons as a result.

The bit with Farman sounds like a pretty strong theory. It definitely looks like Alys and her dragon will be somewhat prominent in the tv show at least. Lots of focus on her and aemond.

Not sure, we only have one season left so the idea that those eggs will mean anything in the actual story of the show is pretty low. At least I hope they don't, as that would go against much of what is established. We don't know what happened to Alys in the source material, tons of rumors. I think the eggs exist to solidify her motives a bit more since we don't really know much about her in the source. Otherwise they're easter egg material IMO.

 

[kkck]

Yes, what is said in the source material The World of Ice and Fire is that dragons come from the east, like far, far east like the shadowlands. There's all kinds of crazy shit said about places the further they are from Westeros. This is the area with Asshai-by-the-shadow, a city where no children live and not too far from the city of winged men (which was referenced in the show this season by Daemon iirc lol). Basically dragonlords became a thing during the Great Empire of the Dawn, a vast mythical empire that existed well before any others. The formation of Valyria happened well after this. There's also tales of dragons being in Westeros centuries before the Targaryens or any other Valyrians were said to have visited. The characteristic of some First Men houses are closer to Valyrians than they are to the Andals, like the Daynes. There's fused, black stone that was famous in the Valyrian places and outposts all over Westeros as well. Basically the history that people think they know in-universe is at best very incomplete. In my opinion and many others, ASOIAF is actually a post-apocalyptic story. There's just too many structures and things in the story that have existed since the distant past that make no sense given the kinds of medieval technologies we know are present. The Wall is the best example of this, as well as the way in which Storm's End is constructed. There's no way either of those things are built by anyone living in the present story. The people in-universe explain those things as "magic", but that sort of thing is often a stand-in for science or technologies people do not understand. GRRM's background as a science fiction writer first solidifies this idea even further IMO.

In any case we know that Valyrians were obsessed with genetics, and it's theorized that the magic involved in hatching dragons might be genetically inherited. There's a long-held theory that it is a female-recessive gene. If you also go along with the theory that the Maesters and the Citadel are very much anti-magic and anti-dragon and had a hand in the demise of dragons (hinted at enough in HoTD, especially earlier on), the resistance Westeros has put up against female Targaryen rulers is multi-faceted. Dreamfyre Rhaena was the first female heir that was passed over and she also happened to own the she-dragon Dreamfyre which is the most prolific female dragon we know of. Rhaenys, the Queen That Never Was, was also passed over in favor of her cousin Viserys I, who only rode Balerion once before the old dragon died. Rhaenys is a descendant of Aegon the Conqueror's younger sister Rhaenys just like Dreamfyre Rhaena was, so it's possible they had the same recessive genetic trait. The same could be said of Dany even though it's further down the line. We also know the Tragedy At Summerhall is rumored to have happened because Aegon V tried invoking magic to hatch dragons, and it's possible it was a failure because he did not possess the genes necessary since he was male. As an aside the whole gene thing is not out of left field when it comes to GRRM, it's something that is all throughout his bibliography, that's why it's suggested so much.

I think people assume blood magic was involved with Dany's hatching of her dragons because it's what Mirri Maz Duur used to "heal" Drogo, the witch took Dany's unborn child Rhaego in return. "Only death can pay for life". The Red Comet that shows up in the first book/season is said to enhance magic in general, and Dany then sacrificed the witch along with whatever was left of Drogo and hatched her dragons as a result.



Not sure, we only have one season left so the idea that those eggs will mean anything in the actual story of the show is pretty low. At least I hope they don't, as that would go against much of what is established. We don't know what happened to Alys in the source material, tons of rumors. I think the eggs exist to solidify her motives a bit more since we don't really know much about her in the source. Otherwise they're easter egg material IMO.

I suppose there's a fun irony in maesters being anti magic and anti dragon if it turns out this stuff is simply science too advanced too understand. Though fitting if this went from "lets get rid of nuclear weapons" to "lets get rid of magic" over thousands of years. Not that dragons should be the most dangerous thing in a setting where absurdly advanced tech is at play. I don't give vhagar good odds against an F-35. There's room for the sci fi angle though though even if there is technology around that's so advanced it looks like magic even to readers there still has to be some element of magic at play. Resurrecting the dead, dragons existing making wildfire stronger, the three eyed raven being able to use trees to look to the past, greenseeing, transferring your soul to animals sound beyond the scope of science unless we go into x-men territory. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that GRRM has done the magical comet thing before as well (can't remember if we talked about that here years ago). There was a theory about the red comet being the same that appeared in some other work.

I get the impression Alys got way too much screentime for an easter egg. The plot already has her in a poorly executed and gross love triangle with aemond and allicent. I suppose there's room for it to end abruptly and without further elaboration but otherwise it looks like her using her feminine wiles and witchy ways to climb the social ladder is a medium to big plot point.

 

[xi0]

I suppose there's a fun irony in maesters being anti magic and anti dragon if it turns out this stuff is simply science too advanced too understand. Though fitting if this went from "lets get rid of nuclear weapons" to "lets get rid of magic" over thousands of years. Not that dragons should be the most dangerous thing in a setting where absurdly advanced tech is at play. I don't give vhagar good odds against an F-35. There's room for the sci fi angle though though even if there is technology around that's so advanced it looks like magic even to readers there still has to be some element of magic at play. Resurrecting the dead, dragons existing making wildfire stronger, the three eyed raven being able to use trees to look to the past, greenseeing, transferring your soul to animals sound beyond the scope of science unless we go into x-men territory. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that GRRM has done the magical comet thing before as well (can't remember if we talked about that here years ago). There was a theory about the red comet being the same that appeared in some other work.

There are certain things that seem less explicable by scientific means but I don't know if that's the case with Bloodraven or even resurrecting the dead since that wades into the realm of telepathy/telekinesis. Which is of course not a real thing but also isn't necessarily "magic" either in a scifi setting

I think the magical comet thing is something from his Thousand Worlds universe established with Tuf Voyaging, yeah. There's even some notions that Planetos exists in the same universe as Thousand Worlds.

I get the impression Alys got way too much screentime for an easter egg. The plot already has her in a poorly executed and gross love triangle with aemond and allicent. I suppose there's room for it to end abruptly and without further elaboration but otherwise it looks like her using her feminine wiles and witchy ways to climb the social ladder is a medium to big plot point.

Not Alys herself, but the dragon eggs being a nod to her having a dragon being easter egg-level. That's just my opinion though, even if the final season is granted 10 episodes to have more breathing room for finishing the story, unless there's some sort of epilogue episode I don't see how the dragon will be relevant. There's this whole inconsistency with dragon growth in the series because Dany's seem to grow far faster than the dragons that existed in the earlier Targaryen dynasty. Some blame that on Dany being far far away from the Maesters and whatever they were doing, some just blame it on GRRM having less consistency on this aspect because Dany's dragons were written about the earliest, before he fleshed most of the history out. I think it's the latter as it's the simplest explanation, but it's still interesting to think about how GRRM would explain it using an in-universe justification. The notion that dragon's just kept growing as long as there environment allowed it and what not is something he has written too. But a dragon growing as quickly as Drogon did in the main series is simply not seen elsewhere in what he has written, so Alys managing to hatch those eggs and making use of them seems unlikely to me.

The producer including Alicent in the "love triangle: talk was just bizarre...

 

[Faust]

@xi0, Did you read any of GRRM's other works besides ASOIAF?

 

[kkck]

Wait, what about the producers?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2026, Original Post Date: Aug 6, 2026 ---

Wait, what about the producers?

 

[xi0]

Wait, what about the producers?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2026, Original Post Date: Aug 6, 2026 ---

Wait, what about the producers?

I"m referencing whatever the fuck this is.

To correct myself idk who this person is offhand, so might be someone at HBO but not involved in the actual show.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2026 ---

Okay, seems like it's the director of the episode, Nina Lopez-Corrado


I get what is being implied there obviously but describing it that way is just so bizarre

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2026 ---

@xi0, Did you read any of GRRM's other works besides ASOIAF?

Some short stories, yes. Why?

 

[kkck]

I"m referencing whatever the fuck this is.

To correct myself idk who this person is offhand, so might be someone at HBO but not involved in the actual show.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2026 ---

Okay, seems like it's the director of the episode, Nina Lopez-Corrado


I get what is being implied there obviously but describing it that way is just so bizarre

FFS lol. For what it's worth I didn't watch the director's commentary. The episode wasn't exactly subtle about what was going on in Aemond's head.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2026 ---

There are certain things that seem less explicable by scientific means but I don't know if that's the case with Bloodraven or even resurrecting the dead since that wades into the realm of telepathy/telekinesis. Which is of course not a real thing but also isn't necessarily "magic" either in a scifi setting

I think the magical comet thing is something from his Thousand Worlds universe established with Tuf Voyaging, yeah. There's even some notions that Planetos exists in the same universe as Thousand Worlds.


Not Alys herself, but the dragon eggs being a nod to her having a dragon being easter egg-level. That's just my opinion though, even if the final season is granted 10 episodes to have more breathing room for finishing the story, unless there's some sort of epilogue episode I don't see how the dragon will be relevant. There's this whole inconsistency with dragon growth in the series because Dany's seem to grow far faster than the dragons that existed in the earlier Targaryen dynasty. Some blame that on Dany being far far away from the Maesters and whatever they were doing, some just blame it on GRRM having less consistency on this aspect because Dany's dragons were written about the earliest, before he fleshed most of the history out. I think it's the latter as it's the simplest explanation, but it's still interesting to think about how GRRM would explain it using an in-universe justification. The notion that dragon's just kept growing as long as there environment allowed it and what not is something he has written too. But a dragon growing as quickly as Drogon did in the main series is simply not seen elsewhere in what he has written, so Alys managing to hatch those eggs and making use of them seems unlikely to me.

The producer including Alicent in the "love triangle: talk was just bizarre...

Yeah, if it leans sufficiently into the fi in scifi then yeah, anything can be science. Even Melisandre birthing a shadow assassin could just be rogue nanobots. I suppose there's not much to go on here but to me it'd sort of diminish the story's mystique if that makes sense. Or at least make me rethink of how I think of magic and gods in the series.

How are the books regarding the size of the dragons at the dance? Vhagar as far as I know is simply the largest, going as far as giving godzilla vibes but dreamfyre is smaller in spite of being over a century old according to google. According to google several dragons in the civil war are close in size to vaghar.

 

[xi0]

FFS lol. For what it's worth I didn't watch the director's commentary. The episode wasn't exactly subtle about what was going on in Aemond's head.

I haven't really sought it out with HotD because I don't want to annoy myself further with some of their choices lol. I've had a general issue with how HBO markets this series, seems like it was made worse with S2 and the whole Team Black vs Team Green thing. It's just idiotic and misses the point of the story, especially given that the source material is almost entirely anti-Black by nature. I love the work Matt Smith has done as Daemon but he's just so cartoonishly evil in the show at times that it doesn't feel genuine to the source sometimes. It's like the version we got of him is the worst version of what people said about him historically but then even moreso without much nuance.

Yeah, if it leans sufficiently into the fi in scifi then yeah, anything can be science. Even Melisandre birthing a shadow assassin could just be rogue nanobots. I suppose there's not much to go on here but to me it'd sort of diminish the story's mystique if that makes sense. Or at least make me rethink of how I think of magic and gods in the series.

Actually the shadow assassin stuff might be one of the aspects of magic in the series that I haven't seen a sufficient "scientific" explanation for, or I might just be forgetting. My stab at it right now might just be something hallucinogenic in nature. We only have Cat's viewpoint of it and Brienne's thoughts on it longer after the fact. Stannis isn't a viewpoint character so we don't know whether he actually has any memory of him killing Renly or not.

How are the books regarding the size of the dragons at the dance? Vhagar as far as I know is simply the largest, going as far as giving godzilla vibes but dreamfyre is smaller in spite of being over a century old according to google. According to google several dragons in the civil war are close in size to vaghar.

100 years isn't a ton when it comes to age, remember that Vhagar is nearly as old as Balerion and hatched on Dragonstone before Aegon's conquest. The next biggest claimed dragon is probably Vermithor, Hugh's dragon. Dreamfyre is a few years older but I don't think she's described as being as large. I think Cannibal is described as being closer in age to Vhagar (250ish) so his size should have been somewhat comparable, assuming the claim that he was on Dragonstone before the Targaryens moved there is true.

I'm not sure the sources claiming about several dragons being close in size. I think the show might have embellished Vhagar's size in relation to the rest of the dragons to some degree, but Vhagar is still definitely the largest living dragon in the source material and none are really described as being that close. I think a notion is that given space and age dragon's never stop growing. We're not sure if that's confirmed fact or not, it seemed to be true with Balerion but he's the only attested example of a dragon dying of old age...well, if the accounts are to be believed. There's a whole notion that Maesters were fucking with them and their reproduction as soon as they had enough influence. And people at the Citadel clearly don't want specific information about dragons being readily available.

 

[kkck]

I haven't really sought it out with HotD because I don't want to annoy myself further with some of their choices lol. I've had a general issue with how HBO markets this series, seems like it was made worse with S2 and the whole Team Black vs Team Green thing. It's just idiotic and misses the point of the story, especially given that the source material is almost entirely anti-Black by nature. I love the work Matt Smith has done as Daemon but he's just so cartoonishly evil in the show at times that it doesn't feel genuine to the source sometimes. It's like the version we got of him is the worst version of what people said about him historically but then even moreso without much nuance.



Actually the shadow assassin stuff might be one of the aspects of magic in the series that I haven't seen a sufficient "scientific" explanation for, or I might just be forgetting. My stab at it right now might just be something hallucinogenic in nature. We only have Cat's viewpoint of it and Brienne's thoughts on it longer after the fact. Stannis isn't a viewpoint character so we don't know whether he actually has any memory of him killing Renly or not.



100 years isn't a ton when it comes to age, remember that Vhagar is nearly as old as Balerion and hatched on Dragonstone before Aegon's conquest. The next biggest claimed dragon is probably Vermithor, Hugh's dragon. Dreamfyre is a few years older but I don't think she's described as being as large. I think Cannibal is described as being closer in age to Vhagar (250ish) so his size should have been somewhat comparable, assuming the claim that he was on Dragonstone before the Targaryens moved there is true.

I'm not sure the sources claiming about several dragons being close in size. I think the show might have embellished Vhagar's size in relation to the rest of the dragons to some degree, but Vhagar is still definitely the largest living dragon in the source material and none are really described as being that close. I think a notion is that given space and age dragon's never stop growing. We're not sure if that's confirmed fact or not, it seemed to be true with Balerion but he's the only attested example of a dragon dying of old age...well, if the accounts are to be believed. There's a whole notion that Maesters were fucking with them and their reproduction as soon as they had enough influence. And people at the Citadel clearly don't want specific information about dragons being readily available.

Matt Smith has grown on me as Daemond, specially considering in season 1 I simply couldn't take him seriously. Since his marriage to Rhaenyra he went from evil rogue to... loyal but misunderstood rogue? I think it's a good dynamic that he acts with her interests in mind but people just assume he is out for some powergrab. Rhaenyra struggling over how to deal with Daemond keeping Sheeptealer's rider a secret was also a good moment (until it turned into a pointless sexual encounter).

How would that even work as hallucination? Who would be hallucinating? Davos when he saw Melisandre birth the shadow, or Cat or Brienne when they saw the shadow kill Renly? And would the hallucination be either cat or brinne killing renly or renly doing himself? The shadow may have some psychic link to Stannis though. Or maybe it straight up is his shadow (gecko moria style) rather than the shadow merely being stannis shaped. Though there's an implication that the shadows are actual sons of melissadre and stannis...

I've been reading more on the maester conspiracy theory but I am somewhat ambivalent about it. Maesters are a knowledgeable group of course but I am not sure that GRRM has made them to be that grand and competent. That said, the theory as a whole is entirely feasible at least.

 

[xi0]

Matt Smith has grown on me as Daemond, specially considering in season 1 I simply couldn't take him seriously. Since his marriage to Rhaenyra he went from evil rogue to... loyal but misunderstood rogue? I think it's a good dynamic that he acts with her interests in mind but people just assume he is out for some powergrab. Rhaenyra struggling over how to deal with Daemond keeping Sheeptealer's rider a secret was also a good moment (until it turned into a pointless sexual encounter).

My issue is the show took the worst version of Daemon from the source material when it was plainly obvious that the stories told were written by someone who sensationalized Rhaenyra and the Black's side of things. So this version of Daemon existing at the same time the version of Alicent we've gotten is somewhat nonsensical, as this versions writing is immensely charitable to her and her actions but basically not at all to Daemon.

The issue with the Sheepstealer thing and Rhaena is the fear that Rhaenyra would hold her responsible, yet Rhaenyra had her own kingsguard committing suicide over listening to Jace's commands of locking her up. Daemon could easily reason with her and explain that Rhaena had nothing to do with the choices Jace and Baela made rather than her being in fear of Rhaenyra's reaction to any of it. Plus, Rhaenyra could clearly see Rhaena and her dragon as the asset it is rather than freakout fuel. On the one hand we're supposed to view Rhaenyra as a pragmatic person who doesn't murder children, but then her own grooming/gaslighting husband is afraid of being honest with her? It doesn't make much sense to me. And never mind that it's all shit-tier compared to Nettles....meh

How would that even work as hallucination? Who would be hallucinating? Davos when he saw Melisandre birth the shadow, or Cat or Brienne when they saw the shadow kill Renly? And would the hallucination be either cat or brinne killing renly or renly doing himself? The shadow may have some psychic link to Stannis though. Or maybe it straight up is his shadow (gecko moria style) rather than the shadow merely being stannis shaped. Though there's an implication that the shadows are actual sons of melissadre and stannis...

The people who witness the murder were hallucinating it and it was Stannis himself the entire time, etc. It's obviously farfetched with so many witnesses and first-person accounts of what happened but we also exist in a story where glamour exists as well as whatever version of that the Faceless Men use and it's not exactly clear how either of those things work either.

I've been reading more on the maester conspiracy theory but I am somewhat ambivalent about it. Maesters are a knowledgeable group of course but I am not sure that GRRM has made them to be that grand and competent. That said, the theory as a whole is entirely feasible at least.

That's part of the genius of his writing IMO, he creates environments in his story where this sort of thing is plausible

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2026, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2026 ---

Again, so many stupid/nonsensical things in this episode but I'm not going to lie and say I wasn't entertained by this finale

 

[kkck]

My issue is the show took the worst version of Daemon from the source material when it was plainly obvious that the stories told were written by someone who sensationalized Rhaenyra and the Black's side of things. So this version of Daemon existing at the same time the version of Alicent we've gotten is somewhat nonsensical, as this versions writing is immensely charitable to her and her actions but basically not at all to Daemon.

The issue with the Sheepstealer thing and Rhaena is the fear that Rhaenyra would hold her responsible, yet Rhaenyra had her own kingsguard committing suicide over listening to Jace's commands of locking her up. Daemon could easily reason with her and explain that Rhaena had nothing to do with the choices Jace and Baela made rather than her being in fear of Rhaenyra's reaction to any of it. Plus, Rhaenyra could clearly see Rhaena and her dragon as the asset it is rather than freakout fuel. On the one hand we're supposed to view Rhaenyra as a pragmatic person who doesn't murder children, but then her own grooming/gaslighting husband is afraid of being honest with her? It doesn't make much sense to me. And never mind that it's all shit-tier compared to Nettles....meh




The people who witness the murder were hallucinating it and it was Stannis himself the entire time, etc. It's obviously farfetched with so many witnesses and first-person accounts of what happened but we also exist in a story where glamour exists as well as whatever version of that the Faceless Men use and it's not exactly clear how either of those things work either.



That's part of the genius of his writing IMO, he creates environments in his story where this sort of thing is plausible

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2026, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2026 ---

Again, so many stupid/nonsensical things in this episode but I'm not going to lie and say I wasn't entertained by this finale

Hmm, without reading the book I can't say how much I can forgive about this. I still feel like daemond works better this season than the earlier seasons. Maybe like how i sort of forgive some of the ways in which stannis was changed. Obviously not the burning his daughter part but I don't think if he was the asperger brick he is in the books he would have been half as entertaining.

Are wild dragons as uncontrollable in the books as they are in the tv show? It doesn't look like sheepstealer can be close to anyone in the show. I suppose it can be used to bluff or just nuke villages from existence but still is wildly unreliable. At least non wild dragons seem to be only as reliable as their riders.

This was easily the best episode of the season. And probably the best war episode in the series. No random corpse walls like at the battle of the bastards and we could actually see shit this time around.

The bit that really caught me off guard was ulf. It took very little to get him to turn on ormund. Too little even. Either they should have shown him having some other argument with ormund or maybe show him being drunker. It honestly would have made more sense if he was simply to drunk to aim his dragon.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 11, 2026 ---

Also, please no one show daemon aria's fight with briene. He'd die of shame if he saw all 80 pounds of her easily parrying a broadsword and here he struggles with some asshole in heavy armor.

 

[xi0]

Hmm, without reading the book I can't say how much I can forgive about this. I still feel like daemond works better this season than the earlier seasons. Maybe like how i sort of forgive some of the ways in which stannis was changed. Obviously not the burning his daughter part but I don't think if he was the asperger brick he is in the books he would have been half as entertaining.

I guess I shouldn't be implying that it is the "wrong" choice in how they adapted him, only that I read his character differently. The Maesters that wrote the material in Fire & Blood are pretty much established as being anti-Rhaenyra and Blacks, so I just found it odd that Condal and the showrunners basically chose the worst version of him in every sense - him killing his first wife, him burning an innocent Velaryon to stand in for Laenor's body, him doing the same with who he claimed was Sheepstealer's rider, him going around calling Viserys' baby son who died "king for a day". The book leaves you to decide how bad someone like Daemon is, and since the authors have a rooting interest in painting Daemon in a poor light, it's reasonable to assume that he isn't the full-blown scoundrel. There's still nuance to who Daemon is in the show, but he is more on the cartoonish side. Perhaps that's because Matt Smith is so good at being that character, and I'm not saying it doesn't work for who Daemon is in the show's story....but I digress

The only thing they did wrong with Stannis was the burning of Shireen. It just wasn't earned in the show. Shireen might burn in the books but it'll probably be Mel who does it.

Are wild dragons as uncontrollable in the books as they are in the tv show? It doesn't look like sheepstealer can be close to anyone in the show. I suppose it can be used to bluff or just nuke villages from existence but still is wildly unreliable. At least non wild dragons seem to be only as reliable as their riders.

Well, Sheepstealer is the only wild dragon we know of that has been tamed. I don't really remember specifics of how violent he is AFTER being tamed, but prior to Nettles doing so Sheepstealer injured other riders trying to mount him, including Alyn of Hull. He stays in the Dragonpit in King's Landing, so I'm assuming they made him wilder in the show for the sake of conflict. The Cannibal earned his named for a reason so I'm assuming he was never a real option. We know the least about Grey Ghost.

The bit that really caught me off guard was ulf. It took very little to get him to turn on ormund. Too little even. Either they should have shown him having some other argument with ormund or maybe show him being drunker. It honestly would have made more sense if he was simply to drunk to aim his dragon.

I guess because it was the same treatment he got from Daemon? Or he was still drunk? Idk, it's definitely a departure from the book and doesn't make much sense.

Also, please no one show daemon aria's fight with briene. He'd die of shame if he saw all 80 pounds of her easily parrying a broadsword and here he struggles with some asshole in heavy armor.

There's way too much Daemon slander because Jon Roxton fought him pretty evenly. They're saying he lost to Cole and now "nobody" Roxton. They ignore that Roxton is wielding Valyrian steel and that Bold Jon Roxton isn't some slouch either. Him losing to Cole and fighting Roxton evenly suddenly makes him a shit swordsman. Not that the series is one where power level discussions make any sort of sense but Twitter continues to contribute to the enshittification of discourse..... I guess it's less stupid than the manner of Ormund's death being "homophobic"....lmao

 

[kkck]

I guess I shouldn't be implying that it is the "wrong" choice in how they adapted him, only that I read his character differently. The Maesters that wrote the material in Fire & Blood are pretty much established as being anti-Rhaenyra and Blacks, so I just found it odd that Condal and the showrunners basically chose the worst version of him in every sense - him killing his first wife, him burning an innocent Velaryon to stand in for Laenor's body, him doing the same with who he claimed was Sheepstealer's rider, him going around calling Viserys' baby son who died "king for a day". The book leaves you to decide how bad someone like Daemon is, and since the authors have a rooting interest in painting Daemon in a poor light, it's reasonable to assume that he isn't the full-blown scoundrel. There's still nuance to who Daemon is in the show, but he is more on the cartoonish side. Perhaps that's because Matt Smith is so good at being that character, and I'm not saying it doesn't work for who Daemon is in the show's story....but I digress

The only thing they did wrong with Stannis was the burning of Shireen. It just wasn't earned in the show. Shireen might burn in the books but it'll probably be Mel who does it.

Well, Sheepstealer is the only wild dragon we know of that has been tamed. I don't really remember specifics of how violent he is AFTER being tamed, but prior to Nettles doing so Sheepstealer injured other riders trying to mount him, including Alyn of Hull. He stays in the Dragonpit in King's Landing, so I'm assuming they made him wilder in the show for the sake of conflict. The Cannibal earned his named for a reason so I'm assuming he was never a real option. We know the least about Grey Ghost.

I guess because it was the same treatment he got from Daemon? Or he was still drunk? Idk, it's definitely a departure from the book and doesn't make much sense.

There's way too much Daemon slander because Jon Roxton fought him pretty evenly. They're saying he lost to Cole and now "nobody" Roxton. They ignore that Roxton is wielding Valyrian steel and that Bold Jon Roxton isn't some slouch either. Him losing to Cole and fighting Roxton evenly suddenly makes him a shit swordsman. Not that the series is one where power level discussions make any sort of sense but Twitter continues to contribute to the enshittification of discourse..... I guess it's less stupid than the manner of Ormund's death being "homophobic"....lmao

The worst version of daemon definitely has more tv appeal I suppose. I don't think the show necessarily frames Daemon as all bad. He isn't good of course but I think the goal there is to present him as relatively rehabilitated in that he is genuinely loyal to Rhaenerys.

Hmm, to me stannis in the book isn't half as cool stannis in the show. By which I don't mean I dislike book stannis, just that the show made an effort to make him likeable to viewers which sort of clashes with how in the books he was framed as so damn unlikeable and friendless that people swore to renly instead. Renly's absurd claim to the throne was pretty much that people liked him better.

That said, I'd be fairly disappointed if book stannis ends up burning his daughter. Melissandre could do it though in that case it's a hard sell that stannis wouldn't put her to the sword. I suppose the plot could evolve to eventually match the show but it'd have to work at lot to earn it.

Nah, I don't mind that someone could put up a fight to Daemon, legendary as he is. I am sure there's medieval combat nerds on the internet that could find a thousand faults with the way the fight played out but to me it was pretty good at least. My comment was more like... I really hate the arya-brienne fight for how stupid it is. And on one end we have that very stupid looking fight with the show pretending her silly ice pick is supposed to be doing anything to brienne but on the other we have this fight where there's real weight to the fight (literally and figuratively).

Not gonna lie, I wasn't expecting Ormund to be a legendary fighter or anything but the way he did die caught me entirely off guard. It took me way too many seconds to realize what roderick did to him. When watching the winter wolves scenes it felt like they had fun filming them. Completely unhinged bunch and every second was gold.

 

[xi0]

The worst version of daemon definitely has more tv appeal I suppose. I don't think the show necessarily frames Daemon as all bad. He isn't good of course but I think the goal there is to present him as relatively rehabilitated in that he is genuinely loyal to Rhaenerys.

There's still nuance, but I meant in regards to most of the events in the source being left up to interpretation, the show chooses to say he's guilty of all of them. Which I don't think is all that convincing personally, especially since the in-world writers of the source material have a rooting interest in the reader thinking he's guilty of all of it. It's propaganda, in a sense.

Hmm, to me stannis in the book isn't half as cool stannis in the show. By which I don't mean I dislike book stannis, just that the show made an effort to make him likeable to viewers which sort of clashes with how in the books he was framed as so damn unlikeable and friendless that people swore to renly instead. Renly's absurd claim to the throne was pretty much that people liked him better.

That said, I'd be fairly disappointed if book stannis ends up burning his daughter. Melissandre could do it though in that case it's a hard sell that stannis wouldn't put her to the sword. I suppose the plot could evolve to eventually match the show but it'd have to work at lot to earn it.

Dillane had more charisma than Stannis was supposed to have, but I still think he was playing a character true to who the book character is. There are things that are admirable about Stannis regardless.

I think the most popular theory involves Melisandre burning Shireen in sacrifice for beneficial weather for Stannis' efforts. Most expect him to not live very long either way, so it will most likely not do anything in the end. Melisandre will be punished for it regardless.

Nah, I don't mind that someone could put up a fight to Daemon, legendary as he is. I am sure there's medieval combat nerds on the internet that could find a thousand faults with the way the fight played out but to me it was pretty good at least. My comment was more like... I really hate the arya-brienne fight for how stupid it is. And on one end we have that very stupid looking fight with the show pretending her silly ice pick is supposed to be doing anything to brienne but on the other we have this fight where there's real weight to the fight (literally and figuratively).

Not gonna lie, I wasn't expecting Ormund to be a legendary fighter or anything but the way he did die caught me entirely off guard. It took me way too many seconds to realize what roderick did to him. When watching the winter wolves scenes it felt like they had fun filming them. Completely unhinged bunch and every second was gold.

TBH I've seem to blot details of the fight between Arya and Brienne out of my mind. By that point show Arya had just became someone's fanfiction version of the character that somehow entirely misses the point of her character.

I guess Ormund's death is a good TV shirt quote but I found it kinda goofy. The Winter Wolves in the source material aren't necessarily fleshed out into anything though, so I guess it mostly worked.

 

[kkck]

There's still nuance, but I meant in regards to most of the events in the source being left up to interpretation, the show chooses to say he's guilty of all of them. Which I don't think is all that convincing personally, especially since the in-world writers of the source material have a rooting interest in the reader thinking he's guilty of all of it. It's propaganda, in a sense.



Dillane had more charisma than Stannis was supposed to have, but I still think he was playing a character true to who the book character is. There are things that are admirable about Stannis regardless.

I think the most popular theory involves Melisandre burning Shireen in sacrifice for beneficial weather for Stannis' efforts. Most expect him to not live very long either way, so it will most likely not do anything in the end. Melisandre will be punished for it regardless.



TBH I've seem to blot details of the fight between Arya and Brienne out of my mind. By that point show Arya had just became someone's fanfiction version of the character that somehow entirely misses the point of her character.

I guess Ormund's death is a good TV shirt quote but I found it kinda goofy. The Winter Wolves in the source material aren't necessarily fleshed out into anything though, so I guess it mostly worked.

Hmm, ok, I get your point. He can't be all the bad things he was framed as but have the end result sort of be as if he didn't. Hmm, maybe I'll rewatch season 1 later because I don't think I remember all that well the more evil things he did early on in the show.

Don't get me wrong, I love show stannis. It's just hard to make sense of Stannis canonically being so weird and friendless that people pretty much broke oaths to avoid him and swore to renly but then you have the rest of the show portray him as outright epic (I love the Stannis the Mannis meme). It's a really hard sell to me that westeros lords wouldn't follow show Stannis to battle or elsewhere (up to when he burned his daughter). I don't expect perfect cake making-eating ledgers but I think this one gets a bit too weird if looked close enough. It bothers me is what I am saying.

It's absolutely goofy. Maybe probably unearned considering the comeuppance feel the scene had to it even though comeuppance doesn't fit with anything. Unless you really take a hard black or green stance which shouldn't be the point I think.

 

[xi0]

Hmm, ok, I get your point. He can't be all the bad things he was framed as but have the end result sort of be as if he didn't. Hmm, maybe I'll rewatch season 1 later because I don't think I remember all that well the more evil things he did early on in the show.

The earliest one is his involvement with his first wife's death. In the source material he is away in the Stepstones, so the notion is that he flew his dragon into the Vale covertly and killed her, or he paid someone to do it for him. It just doesnt seem likely at all.

The next one I think is him insulting his brother's dead son in public. They don't show him doing it in the show iirc but Daemon doesn't deny it either. IMO it just doesn't line up with who Daemon is or his relationship with Viserys.

The third is probably the whole Laenor thing. In the books Qarl Correy actually kills him, but one source outright blames Daemon for hiring Correy to do it. Whereas in the show the event is staged in order for Laenor to be gay and free in Essos and Daemon burns some Velaryon servant as a body double. Both versions of this make Daemon look terrible obviously and the result in both is "beneficial" to Daemon, but there's simply no evidence that Daemon paid Correy to kill him and it was more likely a lover's quarrel.

Those are just some examples offhand that I can remember

Don't get me wrong, I love show stannis. It's just hard to make sense of Stannis canonically being so weird and friendless that people pretty much broke oaths to avoid him and swore to renly but then you have the rest of the show portray him as outright epic (I love the Stannis the Mannis meme). It's a really hard sell to me that westeros lords wouldn't follow show Stannis to battle or elsewhere (up to when he burned his daughter). I don't expect perfect cake making-eating ledgers but I think this one gets a bit too weird if looked close enough. It bothers me is what I am saying.

I think you sort of make a good point for the origin of the conflict that led to the war of the five kings though, but it has less to do with Stannis as a person or ruler and more to do with the rest of the kingdom. I think there's two lines of thinking -

1. You refuse to believe Robert's children are his heir and support Stannis over simple male primogeniture lines. You could even argue Stannis is best suited to be regent even if you believe Joffrey is Robert's heir. That would never happen because of who Stannis and Tywin were, but I digress.

2. Robert was a usurper, regardless of whether his reasons were just, so the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms has functionally broken off from the Targaryen dynasty (only mostly true because House Baratheon was founded by a Aegon the Conqueror's bastard brother, and Targs also married into the Baratheons afterwards). This is less about Stannis being unpopular and more about Westerosi nobility deciding who their ruler shall be instead of male primogeniture.

I think it's probably more realistic that Stannis should have had the support of most major houses. His character and behavior is simply not "weird" enough to warrant people risking going against him. The other factor at play here is the instability caused by Robert's death and the things said about Cersei's children. If Robert simply died with zero male children Stannis becames king 99.9999%, there's simply nothing the Lannisters could have done about that.

It's worth noting that the heroic and epic aspects of Stannis are mostly after he failed at Blackwater Bay and went north, so his deeds didn't matter a ton in regards to what support he had.

 

[kkck]

I think you sort of make a good point for the origin of the conflict that led to the war of the five kings though, but it has less to do with Stannis as a person or ruler and more to do with the rest of the kingdom. I think there's two lines of thinking -

1. You refuse to believe Robert's children are his heir and support Stannis over simple male primogeniture lines. You could even argue Stannis is best suited to be regent even if you believe Joffrey is Robert's heir. That would never happen because of who Stannis and Tywin were, but I digress.

2. Robert was a usurper, regardless of whether his reasons were just, so the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms has functionally broken off from the Targaryen dynasty (only mostly true because House Baratheon was founded by a Aegon the Conqueror's bastard brother, and Targs also married into the Baratheons afterwards). This is less about Stannis being unpopular and more about Westerosi nobility deciding who their ruler shall be instead of male primogeniture.

I think it's probably more realistic that Stannis should have had the support of most major houses. His character and behavior is simply not "weird" enough to warrant people risking going against him. The other factor at play here is the instability caused by Robert's death and the things said about Cersei's children. If Robert simply died with zero male children Stannis becames king 99.9999%, there's simply nothing the Lannisters could have done about that.

It's worth noting that the heroic and epic aspects of Stannis are mostly after he failed at Blackwater Bay and went north, so his deeds didn't matter a ton in regards to what support he had.

I'd say that Renly's train of thought in regards to his claim to the throne is flexible enough that he could have applied it in pretty much any scenario. Though I suppose without the chaos caused by the bastard accusations it's far more likely Renly's buffoonery wouldn't have gotten any traction and almost certainly gotten him beheaded immediately.

I think that's a bit unfair to Stannis. In the main story his baddasery was emphasized following his catastrophic defeat at blackwater bay. But prior to that he participated in Robert's rebellion and proved himself a capable commander, warrior and leader. But following that he just didn't keep any relations with anyone. From the get go his relationship to his brothers was strained and he certainly didn't have friends among other lords.

 

[xi0]

I'd say that Renly's train of thought in regards to his claim to the throne is flexible enough that he could have applied it in pretty much any scenario. Though I suppose without the chaos caused by the bastard accusations it's far more likely Renly's buffoonery wouldn't have gotten any traction and almost certainly gotten him beheaded immediately.

I think that's a bit unfair to Stannis. In the main story his baddasery was emphasized following his catastrophic defeat at blackwater bay. But prior to that he participated in Robert's rebellion and proved himself a capable commander, warrior and leader. But following that he just didn't keep any relations with anyone. From the get go his relationship to his brothers was strained and he certainly didn't have friends among other lords.

Renly's train of thought would still apply, sure. But my point is that he wouldn't have had the same kind of support that he had, and nor should he. Renly may have been a charismatic lord and had many friends, but he has no deeds to inspire anyone to follow him as a usurper. He may have had support from some smaller houses, but the major houses would have never supported him without the chaos after Robert's death.

To be more specific, his most recognized deeds are probably during the Greyjoy Rebellion. The whole issue of holding Storm's End during Robert's rebellion is a source of anger for Stannis. Given that he held it faithfully for Robert and then it was given to Renly instead by Robert and Stannis was given Dragonstone as his heir, as Targaryens would do.


BTW since we were speaking about show changes, here's a really good video breaking down most of them



I don't necessarily agree that every change made was for the worse or that Condal shouldn't have changed anything at all, but it's a very comprehensive breakdown of them and the issues with adapting Fire & Blood in general.

 

[Rikudou King]

Finally managed to catch up and finish the series, and I can see why people are disappointed in it. Probably give a deeper review later, but for now it feels like they should have just ignored the canonical stuff and did their own thing, because clearly they have their own story they want to tell and the canon events are just getting in their way. My biggest issue, especially during this latest season, is that none of the characters are acting like their fighting against enemies with dragons... Like the Septon threatening Rhaenyra, even though he should know full well Oldtown surrounded twice to the Targaryen's to avoid their dragons easily burning the city and sept, or Ormund thinking the other lords turning against her would be that major of a threat when she would easily be able to threaten them back in line.

Don't get me wrong, I love show stannis. It's just hard to make sense of Stannis canonically being so weird and friendless that people pretty much broke oaths to avoid him and swore to renly but then you have the rest of the show portray him as outright epic (I love the Stannis the Mannis meme). It's a really hard sell to me that westeros lords wouldn't follow show Stannis to battle or elsewhere (up to when he burned his daughter). I don't expect perfect cake making-eating ledgers but I think this one gets a bit too weird if looked close enough. It bothers me is what I am saying.

Did people break oaths against him? The Stormlords sided with Renly, their lord, and most of the Reach joined Renly due to the Tyrells, their lord. Outside of the supposed duty to obey primogeniture, but that was already messy given the whole incest thing wasn't public, everyone did seem to be following who they were supposed to be. The only people I remember disliking Stannis was Renly and Littlefinger, and even in the latter case I'm not sure if he truly cared.