Discussion The Football/Soccer Thread

[Leen]

^
Two

The Champions League and the Premier League

 

[Mendes]

Actually, Man U won the Community Shield too over Chelsea. No doubt Man U was the team of the year whether you like them or not. The future's bright for them as well, as Anderson is yet to show the overwhelming potential he has. Believe me, I know. He played in FC Porto for a short time (he was injured by 6 months the only season he played for us) but he was something else. Nani seems to have evolved alot too. I think Man U should focus on a right side back, like Daniel Alves, Rafinha or Behrami. Lets also see how the Ronaldo novel goes on. I'm not convinced with Real Madrid giving up on the portuguese winger.

I'm already surprised with such agitated market even before the Euro Cup!

 

[rtyd1]

Thats the way it is these days, mid table sides have £30-50 million budgets and since every one else is buying they have to do the same to keep up. There is not going to be another Ajax who won the CL with nearly all the players they developed themselves if the transfer market keeps expanding. The closest side to the Ajax team is Wenger's Arsenal but as Mourinho (i think) said he takes diamonds and polishes them. Most of his talent is bought between 16-21 and then furthur developed.

I could see Anderson taking over PS role in midfield for Man U, the only dissapointing thing i can think of is his lack of goals. If he is to become world class he going to have to improve his shooting so he can get 15-20 goals a season from a midfield role

 

[Mendes]

Thats the way it is these days, mid table sides have £30-50 million budgets and since every one else is buying they have to do the same to keep up. There is not going to be another Ajax who won the CL with nearly all the players they developed themselves if the transfer market keeps expanding. The closest side to the Ajax team is Wenger's Arsenal but as Mourinho (i think) said he takes diamonds and polishes them. Most of his talent is bought between 16-21 and then furthur developed.

I could see Anderson taking over PS role in midfield for Man U, the only dissapointing thing i can think of is his lack of goals. If he is to become world class he going to have to improve his shooting so he can get 15-20 goals a season from a midfield role

Yeah Anderson's finishing is poor. He scored a few goals for Porto but nothing impressive and he's yet to score for Man U. I guess its not a quality of his, but I dont think a player has to score goals to porve his worth. Of course that helps... proof is Ronaldo. He's scoring goals impressively but his assists are dropping. When Nistelrooy was around Ronaldo assisted much more, specially in crosses. I guess having a center forward with less hight like Tevez lowers Ronaldo's capability of assist in comparison of what he did with the legendary flying dutchman around

 

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

How many title did Man U take this year?

two. EPL and UEFA championship.

 

[Imperium]

Lol Queiroz lost a huge opportunity to shut up imo.
As for France not selecting Flamini... that's nonsense. He plays more and better than Diarra, Vieira, Makelele and probably Toulalan. Its great news for me. I'm done with loosing against France in these cups...

Flamini does have a higher work rate then those players but i wont even try to guess whats going on in domenech head. I think he is opting for a more experienced approach. Vieira couldnt be left out, and even at his age Makelele is still one of the best defensive midfielders in the game. So i wouldnt be surprised if Diarra or Toulalan dont even get a lot of games.

I was watching England vs USA in the 1st half, but it was boring. England seems to be testing some formations, which is understandable. The 4.4.2 with Beckham and Gerrard in the wings isnt bad at all. Ashley Cole is in great shape and he can cover for Gerrards nature of searching interior areas. Still, its not a formation I enjoy. The 4.3.3 is usually more attractive and it could work with Rooney and Beckham in the wings.
The 1-0 was scored by Terry, who couldnt have scored in a better time, after his nightmare night 1 week ago. Beckham's cross in the FK was as terrific as ever. It seems like a FK awarded to England is almost like a penalty when Beck's around

It was a dire match, so im not surprised you only watched half of it. I think we waited about 20minutes before their was even a shot on goal, and even that wasnt on target! Lampard was invisible for large parts of the match. Hargreaves on the other hand was playing really well, much more dynamic as a central midfielder than a fullback. I hope he plays more games to try and cement a spot in midfield. God knows Lampard and Gerrard need more competition. Another impressive performance though, by gerrard who was playing on the wings. Which was surprising since he didnt really do good on the wings for liverpool against Arsenal in the CL. He did do good their, but i dont see him playing their in the future. Since Joe cole is waiting in line and i think he would bring more to the wings just how gerrard would bring more to the midfield. Terry's header was well taken from a beauty of a freekick by beckham, who does want to let go of that right wing role so easily. Bentley who later came on for him wasnt bad, but didnt have a huge impact on the match. The match started to pick up pace after Lampard was taken off for Barry. Who was another impressive performer, playing a nice ball for gerrard to tap in for the second goal. I hope we get to see more of hargreaves/barry midfield because as much as lampard is impressive for chelsea he needs more competition for his role with england or (like today) is more than likely to just sit back and not bother. Overall the match was rubbish and to be honest it was against a weak american side who probably should never play without Landon Donovan's name on the Starting XI. =/

Btw, did anybody see the recent craze on youtube over beckhams 70 yard goal? He hit a empty (!) net from his own half...

I think that Real Madrid still plays mediocre football, but now Barcelona (and Valencia) is even worse than them, so they don't have much competition. Villareal getting the second place is a clear indication of that. Capello did make the team a little more balanced, I'll give him that, but it's more of a drop in their rivals performance rather than a dramatic improvement of their own the cause of their victories in la liga.

Yea, your right with madrid being really poor this season. And it showed when they played roma in the CL who beat them in both legs. But i read about somebody from real boasting about the young age of the squad (Something like out of the big clubs in europe they have the second smallest average age), which i guess means they have a future in which they want to build on. The squad in itself is not bad but i think if they want to succede in the CL maybe they should get add a more ruthless and physical side to their game. Something the spanish clubs lacked this season.

Its curious we've been talking about summer transfers and we've completely forgot Zaragoza's relegation that will cost them the loss of lots of superb players. Among others, I can see Ayala, Juanfran, Luccin, Aimar and Diego Milito as candidates to leave the club.

Ayala is getting old and i heard he retired for international football so i really wouldnt be surprised if he follows Oliveira and decides to stay. As for Sergio Garcia, Aimar and the others. I guess some spanish clubs will snatch them or maybe one or two will go abroad.

Yeah Anderson's finishing is poor. He scored a few goals for Porto but nothing impressive and he's yet to score for Man U. I guess its not a quality of his, but I dont think a player has to score goals to porve his worth. Of course that helps... proof is Ronaldo. He's scoring goals impressively but his assists are dropping. When Nistelrooy was around Ronaldo assisted much more, specially in crosses. I guess having a center forward with less hight like Tevez lowers Ronaldo's capability of assist in comparison of what he did with the legendary flying dutchman around

I was surprised when i heard Anderson was a attacking midfielder by nature. I always saw him as the Davids type who just runs up and down. Maybe its the hair....He does have a lot of potential and i wont be surprised to see him starting more games next season, instead of coming off the bench. As for ronaldo's assists, they indeed are dropping. Last season they it was really high, but i suppose you cant score and assist at the same time.

 

[Lelo]

England beat U.S., thats about all the action I will see cuz they aint going to Euro, this sucks, Englands got a solid team too

 

[sk.nite]

Despite having big name players in their squad, England's teamwork is poor and their attack power is quite low. Not to mention that they haven't found a decent keeper in ages, which would make a defensive style a viable strategy.

 

[Mendes]

Btw, did anybody see the recent craze on youtube over beckhams 70 yard goal? He hit a empty (!) net from his own half...

Yeah, but its different when its beckham... sadly

I was surprised when i heard Anderson was a attacking midfielder by nature. I always saw him as the Davids type who just runs up and down. Maybe its the hair....He does have a lot of potential and i wont be surprised to see him starting more games next season, instead of coming off the bench. As for ronaldo's assists, they indeed are dropping. Last season they it was really high, but i suppose you cant score and assist at the same time.

I was surprised as well when I saw Anderson's defensive skill on Man U. He was a typical attacking midfielder in Porto with a low number of defensive actions demanded. In MU he played as defensive midfielder and very effectively. I guess that explains part of his lack of scored goals this season.

Quaresma is being linked with Inter, according to the press, for a 30M deal. Its not been confirmed, but its very possible. Porto's defensive midfielder, Paulo Assunção, is leaving the club as well, since he used the Webster Law in his favor. Its still unknown his next club, but whoever it is, its a lucky club. He was one of the most (or The most) important players for us this season and its another loss for us. Now lets just sit back and wait for the next player to leave to a bigger club. I bet on Lucho Gonzalez

 

[sk.nite]

Quaresma is being linked with Inter, according to the press, for a 30M deal. Its not been confirmed, but its very possible. Porto's defensive midfielder, Paulo Assunção, is leaving the club as well, since he used the Webster Law in his favor. Its still unknown his next club, but whoever it is, its a lucky club. He was one of the most (or The most) important players for us this season and its another loss for us. Now lets just sit back and wait for the next player to leave to a bigger club. I bet on Lucho Gonzalez

What's this Webster law about?

I bet that if you saw Lucho Gonzalez playing for Argentina you wouldn't mind him leaving so much. XD

 

[Imperium]

What's this Webster law about?

Its when a player under 28 terminates their contract with the club after playing for them for at least three years. They terminate it, by buying out the contract. So basically any player (under 28) can leave a club after three years just by buying out the contract. Its named after some dude who used it to go to wigan (which didnt do him a lot of good...karma?)

 

[Mendes]

What's this Webster law about?

I bet that if you saw Lucho Gonzalez playing for Argentina you wouldn't mind him leaving so much. XD

I think he feels the pressure of playing for Argentina. Its way different when he's in a squad full of amazing players for his spot. In Porto he's brilliant and I think he has what it takes to play for a huge team. I hope he doesnt leave tough...

The Webster Law can be applied when a player has under 27 years old and his contract was signed 3 years before. He can leave the club of his own will as long as he compensates the club with the value of his remaining contract salaries.
In this particular situation, Paulo Assunção had a 4 year contract and 3 of them had already passed, so he decided to leave the club and his future club will certainly cover for his remaining year of salaries, which is a ridiculous quantity comparing to what it would be if he was involved in a normal transfer.

Its not pretty, but I think Assunção left because he was threatened by a fan a few weeks ago. At least it helped...

---

Its when a player under 28 terminates their contract with the club after playing for them for at least three years. They terminate it, by buying out the contract. So basically any player (under 28) can leave a club after three years just by buying out the contract. Its named after some dude who used it to go to wigan (which didnt do him a lot of good...karma?)

lol you beat me to it, but I didnt knew of the player who named the law

 

[sk.nite]

The Webster Law can be applied when a player has under 27 years old and his contract was signed 3 years before. He can leave the club of his own will as long as he compensates the club with the value of his remaining contract salaries.
In this particular situation, Paulo Assunção had a 4 year contract and 3 of them had already passed, so he decided to leave the club and his future club will certainly cover for his remaining year of salaries, which is a ridiculous quantity comparing to what it would be if he was involved in a normal transfer.

Its not pretty, but I think Assunção left because he was threatened by a fan a few weeks ago. At least it helped...

Hmm, it seems a bit unfair for the clubs imo. I knew about the Bosman law, but not about this one. Since when has this law been around?

 

[rtyd1]

Hmm, it seems a bit unfair for the clubs imo. I knew about the Bosman law, but not about this one. Since when has this law been around?

Webster's transfer to Wigan Athletic was ratified by FIFA on September 4, 2006, seemingly creating a legal precedent for the conduction of international football transfers, since the 30th of January 2008 it become official i believe for all players,

Summary here

Spoiler

[edit] Webster ruling

Wigan was the first club to take advantage of this new ruling as they signed Andy Webster from Hearts in August of 2006. Initially Hearts were slow to react to the signing, but when Webster was loaned to Hearts' rival Rangers, Hearts took legal action. Hearts believed that the £625,000 either Andy Webster or Wigan should pay was not adequate compensation. It was well short of the four million pound transfer Hearts wanted. This amount was based on the so-called 'going rate' in the transfer market of a player of his calibre. FIFPRO, the global players’ football union, supported both Webster's and Wigan's case because of the implications of a ruling in the player's favour.
The case was finally brought before the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in Switzerland to clarify the wording and legality of Article 17. The court ruled on 30 January 2008 that Webster was free to sign with another club from a different national league and that, according to Article 17, he need only pay £150,000 for leaving the club for Wigan with a year remaining on his contract. This amount is generally cited as being the amount that Hearts would have owed him had he remained with the club.
This ruling in fact has established an addendum to Article 17 allowing a player who is between the ages of 23 and 28 to move in the final year of a four or five year contract provided he hands in a request to the club no more than 15 days after the end of the previous season. The club would be entitled to compensation, but only equalling the amount of the final year's wages as per the contract. In most cases that would be far less than an agreed transfer fee. In addition, the player would have to move to a club that was not in the same association as his current club. Players who are older then 28 are only required to fulfill two years on a contract no matter the length of the contract. At such a point they can opt out of the rest of their contract by paying the remainder owed to them to the club they are under contract to.

[edit] Implications of Webster ruling

It is initially unclear how quickly this ruling will affect the transfer market in international football. The January 2008 market included no Webster-like transfers and fees continued to be in millions of pounds. The summer of 2008 does contain a few test cases that could demonstrate the new transfer market, but most of those involved are so tied to their clubs that it would be unlikely that they would jump their club for one in another nation (Frank Lampard of Chelsea, a fixture to the West London club's starting eleven, is one regularly cited test case, and Michael Owen who currently is with Newcastle is another). Dimitar Berbatov, who currently plays for Tottenham, is also often cited, but he does not turn 28 until the spring of 2009.(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article3279498.ece)
It has been suggested that the top 25% of players would most benefit from the ruling, but if the results of free agency in American sports are any indication of the future changes such a ruling could bring to European football, spectators should see a growing wealth in the younger players who have promise and the middle class footballer who can play after age 28 as well. Growth of the minimal salary and the salaries of players who have more than five years of service in American sport increased twentyfold in the first ten years of free agency.
What is clear is that there could be a challenge to smaller clubs. If international scouting continues at its current pace, these clubs could be looking at losing young stars prematurely to foreign clubs. Because of this, smaller clubs may unload younger stars sooner than they had wanted, and thus get less for these diamonds in the rough, because of the threat of losing a player to an international rival. It may be that small clubs will find themselves less likely to be able to support themselves with transfer fees and may have to revert to pre-1995 ways of keeping their club afloat.
Of concern is the implication for clubs in non-European markets which have a combination of good talent and weak local currencies. For instance the African Nations Cup overlaps the European transfer window. A talented African player can be induced to terminate his contract without cause and the benefiting European Club could acquire an excellent player for a pittance. Such was the case of Essam Al Hadari who was the first African based player to attempt to use this clause to join FC Sion of Switzerland after helping Egypt win the African Nations Cup. His attempt to terminate his contract failed on a technicality since he did not give his club the required 15 day notice. Articles 17 may thus pose grave consequences for South American and Africa clubs.

 

[Lelo]

Despite having big name players in their squad, England's teamwork is poor and their attack power is quite low. Not to mention that they haven't found a decent keeper in ages, which would make a defensive style a viable strategy.

when I first started watching soccer they had David Seaman who still till this day was my favorite goalie. He really knew how to rock that mustache

---

Flamini does have a higher work rate then those players but i wont even try to guess whats going on in domenech head. I think he is opting for a more experienced approach. Vieira couldnt be left out, and even at his age Makelele is still one of the best defensive midfielders in the game. So i wouldnt be surprised if Diarra or Toulalan dont even get a lot of games.

It was a dire match, so im not surprised you only watched half of it. I think we waited about 20minutes before their was even a shot on goal, and even that wasnt on target! Lampard was invisible for large parts of the match. Hargreaves on the other hand was playing really well, much more dynamic as a central midfielder than a fullback. I hope he plays more games to try and cement a spot in midfield. God knows Lampard and Gerrard need more competition. Another impressive performance though, by gerrard who was playing on the wings. Which was surprising since he didnt really do good on the wings for liverpool against Arsenal in the CL. He did do good their, but i dont see him playing their in the future. Since Joe cole is waiting in line and i think he would bring more to the wings just how gerrard would bring more to the midfield. Terry's header was well taken from a beauty of a freekick by beckham, who does want to let go of that right wing role so easily. Bentley who later came on for him wasnt bad, but didnt have a huge impact on the match. The match started to pick up pace after Lampard was taken off for Barry. Who was another impressive performer, playing a nice ball for gerrard to tap in for the second goal. I hope we get to see more of hargreaves/barry midfield because as much as lampard is impressive for chelsea he needs more competition for his role with england or (like today) is more than likely to just sit back and not bother. Overall the match was rubbish and to be honest it was against a weak american side who probably should never play without Landon Donovan's name on the Starting XI. =/

Btw, did anybody see the recent craze on youtube over beckhams 70 yard goal? He hit a empty (!) net from his own half...
Yea, your right with madrid being really poor this season. And it showed when they played roma in the CL who beat them in both legs. But i read about somebody from real boasting about the young age of the squad (Something like out of the big clubs in europe they have the second smallest average age), which i guess means they have a future in which they want to build on. The squad in itself is not bad but i think if they want to succede in the CL maybe they should get add a more ruthless and physical side to their game. Something the spanish clubs lacked this season.

Ayala is getting old and i heard he retired for international football so i really wouldnt be surprised if he follows Oliveira and decides to stay. As for Sergio Garcia, Aimar and the others. I guess some spanish clubs will snatch them or maybe one or two will go abroad.


I was surprised when i heard Anderson was a attacking midfielder by nature. I always saw him as the Davids type who just runs up and down. Maybe its the hair....He does have a lot of potential and i wont be surprised to see him starting more games next season, instead of coming off the bench. As for ronaldo's assists, they indeed are dropping. Last season they it was really high, but i suppose you cant score and assist at the same time.

yeah, that shit was pretty nice. I just saw it today. Even though it was an empty net I still give him credit for making it

 

[sk.nite]

Webster's transfer to Wigan Athletic was ratified by FIFA on September 4, 2006, seemingly creating a legal precedent for the conduction of international football transfers, since the 30th of January 2008 it become official i believe for all players,

Summary here

Spoiler

[edit] Webster ruling

Wigan was the first club to take advantage of this new ruling as they signed Andy Webster from Hearts in August of 2006. Initially Hearts were slow to react to the signing, but when Webster was loaned to Hearts' rival Rangers, Hearts took legal action. Hearts believed that the £625,000 either Andy Webster or Wigan should pay was not adequate compensation. It was well short of the four million pound transfer Hearts wanted. This amount was based on the so-called 'going rate' in the transfer market of a player of his calibre. FIFPRO, the global players’ football union, supported both Webster's and Wigan's case because of the implications of a ruling in the player's favour.
The case was finally brought before the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in Switzerland to clarify the wording and legality of Article 17. The court ruled on 30 January 2008 that Webster was free to sign with another club from a different national league and that, according to Article 17, he need only pay £150,000 for leaving the club for Wigan with a year remaining on his contract. This amount is generally cited as being the amount that Hearts would have owed him had he remained with the club.
This ruling in fact has established an addendum to Article 17 allowing a player who is between the ages of 23 and 28 to move in the final year of a four or five year contract provided he hands in a request to the club no more than 15 days after the end of the previous season. The club would be entitled to compensation, but only equalling the amount of the final year's wages as per the contract. In most cases that would be far less than an agreed transfer fee. In addition, the player would have to move to a club that was not in the same association as his current club. Players who are older then 28 are only required to fulfill two years on a contract no matter the length of the contract. At such a point they can opt out of the rest of their contract by paying the remainder owed to them to the club they are under contract to.

[edit] Implications of Webster ruling

It is initially unclear how quickly this ruling will affect the transfer market in international football. The January 2008 market included no Webster-like transfers and fees continued to be in millions of pounds. The summer of 2008 does contain a few test cases that could demonstrate the new transfer market, but most of those involved are so tied to their clubs that it would be unlikely that they would jump their club for one in another nation (Frank Lampard of Chelsea, a fixture to the West London club's starting eleven, is one regularly cited test case, and Michael Owen who currently is with Newcastle is another). Dimitar Berbatov, who currently plays for Tottenham, is also often cited, but he does not turn 28 until the spring of 2009.(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article3279498.ece)
It has been suggested that the top 25% of players would most benefit from the ruling, but if the results of free agency in American sports are any indication of the future changes such a ruling could bring to European football, spectators should see a growing wealth in the younger players who have promise and the middle class footballer who can play after age 28 as well. Growth of the minimal salary and the salaries of players who have more than five years of service in American sport increased twentyfold in the first ten years of free agency.
What is clear is that there could be a challenge to smaller clubs. If international scouting continues at its current pace, these clubs could be looking at losing young stars prematurely to foreign clubs. Because of this, smaller clubs may unload younger stars sooner than they had wanted, and thus get less for these diamonds in the rough, because of the threat of losing a player to an international rival. It may be that small clubs will find themselves less likely to be able to support themselves with transfer fees and may have to revert to pre-1995 ways of keeping their club afloat.
Of concern is the implication for clubs in non-European markets which have a combination of good talent and weak local currencies. For instance the African Nations Cup overlaps the European transfer window. A talented African player can be induced to terminate his contract without cause and the benefiting European Club could acquire an excellent player for a pittance. Such was the case of Essam Al Hadari who was the first African based player to attempt to use this clause to join FC Sion of Switzerland after helping Egypt win the African Nations Cup. His attempt to terminate his contract failed on a technicality since he did not give his club the required 15 day notice. Articles 17 may thus pose grave consequences for South American and Africa clubs.

It's pretty disturbing that regions with talented players and poor clubs will be pressed even harder to sell their players before the age of 23. Although here in Argentina, in practical cases, it wouldn't have a great effect. Really talented players are sold at a very young age, 19 or 20. Some leave the country without even playing a single pro match (take Messi for example). But I don't think it would be possible for a player to leave the club with that law, the fans would burn his house and lynch him on the street...well, maybe they wouldn't go that far, but they certainly wouldn't give him a kind farewell.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

 

[rtyd1]

That kind of thing has happened in Brazil too, I remember Robinho's mum was kidnapped when he was thinking of moving to Real Madrid from Santos

Just when you thought it was over Marca continue the saga,

Spoiler

Following on from the Red Devils' public statement about Madrid's conduct, this personal letter appears to be a step further.

Allegedly signed by David Gill, the Old Trafford CEO, it states that not only are United unwilling to sell Ronaldo at present, but that they will not do so even if Cristiano Ronaldo publicly asks for a move.

Furthermore, Gill requests that Madrid publicly renounce their desire to land the Portuguese ace.

To Marca, of course, this betrays nervousness on the part of the English side.

The Godfather

Meanwhile, Marca claims that Ronaldo's godfather, one Fernao Sousa, has said that Cristiano is on the verge of deciding that the time is right for a move.

He said, "Cristiano must seize this opportunity to go to Real Madrid.

"I think that he's already decided to do so, but he'll wait until after the Euros before saying anything.

"His main goal is to win everything. That's what he wants - the Champions League in particular, but also going all the way with Portugal at Euro 2008."

 

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

Who are you guys gonna support in the Euro, me? Portugal.

 

[ibra87]

Italy. Italy all the way for me!

 

[Lelo]

Who are you guys gonna support in the Euro, me? Portugal.

Portugal? They took out England in the World Cup, shouldnt you hate them. Me, I dont really care who wins but if I have to choose it would be Italy

---

That kind of thing has happened in Brazil too, I remember Robinho's mum was kidnapped when he was thinking of moving to Real Madrid from Santos

Just when you thought it was over Marca continue the saga,

Spoiler

Following on from the Red Devils' public statement about Madrid's conduct, this personal letter appears to be a step further.

Allegedly signed by David Gill, the Old Trafford CEO, it states that not only are United unwilling to sell Ronaldo at present, but that they will not do so even if Cristiano Ronaldo publicly asks for a move.

Furthermore, Gill requests that Madrid publicly renounce their desire to land the Portuguese ace.

To Marca, of course, this betrays nervousness on the part of the English side.

The Godfather

Meanwhile, Marca claims that Ronaldo's godfather, one Fernao Sousa, has said that Cristiano is on the verge of deciding that the time is right for a move.

He said, "Cristiano must seize this opportunity to go to Real Madrid.

"I think that he's already decided to do so, but he'll wait until after the Euros before saying anything.

"His main goal is to win everything. That's what he wants - the Champions League in particular, but also going all the way with Portugal at Euro 2008."

what ended up happening to his mom