Chapter Mokushiroku no Yonkishi Chapter 258 Spoilers & Discussion

[kkck]

Hmm, one of the things that makes sequels to stories awful is when rather than build on what happened previously they simply undo everything. When this manga started it sort didn't seem to fall into that trap. But with pantscelot now it really seems like the story is simply moving to undo every victory the gang had in NNT. I suppose deathpierce would be thriller about this?

And zeldris now dies gleefully at pantscelot's hands and tells him to save himself? Why would pantscelot want to live after this? He already murdered a number of people at camelot, including jericho. Thanks to zeldris demonkind's genocide was narrowly avoided and that if he doesn't pursue them to the abyss. Next he is most likely heading for the goddess realm where his goal will be the same, murder everyone. Even if the same scenario repeats the best case scenario appears to be a permanent separation of all races. On top of that pantscelot appears to be on collision course with the prediction about him murdering ban.

This is silly. This is too far. Saving his waifu does not justify this much indiscriminate murder. Like, I can buy the development itself but it's just nonsense that there's any redemption beyond it. Why would pantscelot want to live after ruining everyone's lives? Why would gwen want to be with someone with that much innocent blood in his hands? Pantscelot just doesn't come out of this being who he was. There's also the alternative that due to time travel shenanigans other races just left britania for a couple decades to preserve the timeline but that's not a good development. Pantscelot destroying britania isn't a good development. What is this manga?

 

[Mountain-Photo-165]

Hmm, one of the things that makes sequels to stories awful is when rather than build on what happened previously they simply undo everything. When this manga started it sort didn't seem to fall into that trap. But with pantscelot now it really seems like the story is simply moving to undo every victory the gang had in NNT. I suppose deathpierce would be thriller about this?

And zeldris now dies gleefully at pantscelot's hands and tells him to save himself? Why would pantscelot want to live after this? He already murdered a number of people at camelot, including jericho. Thanks to zeldris demonkind's genocide was narrowly avoided and that if he doesn't pursue them to the abyss. Next he is most likely heading for the goddess realm where his goal will be the same, murder everyone. Even if the same scenario repeats the best case scenario appears to be a permanent separation of all races. On top of that pantscelot appears to be on collision course with the prediction about him murdering ban.

This is silly. This is too far. Saving his waifu does not justify this much indiscriminate murder. Like, I can buy the development itself but it's just nonsense that there's any redemption beyond it. Why would pantscelot want to live after ruining everyone's lives? Why would gwen want to be with someone with that much innocent blood in his hands? Pantscelot just doesn't come out of this being who he was. There's also the alternative that due to time travel shenanigans other races just left britania for a couple decades to preserve the timeline but that's not a good development. Pantscelot destroying britania isn't a good development. What is this manga?

Lancelot's treason because of Guinevere is a famous concept in Arthurian mythology, so Nakaba had to adapt it—that’s the whole point.

Furthermore, I don't really think the future the Knights of The Holy Grail came from is normal; it seems artificially manufactured by some reality-warping power (Chaos).

The people involved treat this subject as a "taboo" and refuse to talk about it, which is incredibly strange.

In that timeline, Tristan is dead, which is also suspicious. He is the only one who possesses both light and dark powers, much like Chaos itself.

If this reality is indeed manufactured by Chaos, it makes perfect sense why he is dead—he likely broke free from the brainwashing.

 

[Demonspeed]

Shit. So Ludo only? There go my chances of ever seeing Tarmiel again.

They have their Graces so they will come back too.

 

[kkck]

Lancelot's treason because of Guinevere is a famous concept in Arthurian mythology, so Nakaba had to adapt it—that’s the whole point.

Furthermore, I don't really think the future the Knights of The Holy Grail came from is normal; it seems artificially manufactured by some reality-warping power (Chaos).

The people involved treat this subject as a "taboo" and refuse to talk about it, which is incredibly strange.

In that timeline, Tristan is dead, which is also suspicious. He is the only one who possesses both light and dark powers, much like Chaos itself.

If this reality is indeed manufactured by Chaos, it makes perfect sense why he is dead—he likely broke free from the brainwashing.

If the assumption is that the entire future that has been alluded to is BS and pantscelot is basically dooming himself... Then sure, the story works somewhat better. Though I am not sure that is what nakaba is going for. Nakaba has a terrible cake eating/having ledger.

The people involved in this not talking about it is definitely not strange. We are talking time travel shenanigans. The most likely reason they didn't say anything is that they didn't want the holy grail knights to say anything. Even if you make a case it's strange for the cast, it's not strange at all for readers. It's time travel 101.

As for reality being manufactured by chaos... I mean, chaos is basically god in the story. The totality of everything is manufactured by chaos. I don't think there's any insinuation in the story that the future the grail knights come from is in some capacity fake.

 

[Zezu1995]

tbh i find it odd we havnt seen mael... before FKOA happened there was a pre sketch of mael talking about teaching gawain about the grace

 

[tdtd1234]

Now that the fight is over I don't think it needed 3 chapters + 1 set up.

 

[Capalot98]

Lancelot's treason because of Guinevere is a famous concept in Arthurian mythology, so Nakaba had to adapt it—that’s the whole point.

Furthermore, I don't really think the future the Knights of The Holy Grail came from is normal; it seems artificially manufactured by some reality-warping power (Chaos).

The people involved treat this subject as a "taboo" and refuse to talk about it, which is incredibly strange.

In that timeline, Tristan is dead, which is also suspicious. He is the only one who possesses both light and dark powers, much like Chaos itself.

If this reality is indeed manufactured by Chaos, it makes perfect sense why he is dead—he likely broke free from the brainwashing.

They never said Tristan was dead in the future, that’s only what we assumed based on how Ysaie talked about him. His dialogue about him made it sound like Tristan was never in his life or he was to young to remember him but then after fighting him we found out he actually does know Tristan and was raised by him.
Even after multiple chapters pass and Ysaie now realizes he’s in the past he never says anything about Tristan being dead in the future

If he really was dead I’m sure he would’ve said something or tried to warn him since the holy grail knights don’t care about telling them about the future since they already told them the other clans aren’t around in their time. To me nothing about their future is strange or abnormal as of yet it just seems that way to y'all because we’re missing a lot of context but the way Nakaba is writing implies their future is where the story inevitably leads

If the assumption is that the entire future that has been alluded to is BS and pantscelot is basically dooming himself... Then sure, the story works somewhat better. Though I am not sure that is what nakaba is going for. Nakaba has a terrible cake eating/having ledger.

The people involved in this not talking about it is definitely not strange. We are talking time travel shenanigans. The most likely reason they didn't say anything is that they didn't want the holy grail knights to say anything. Even if you make a case it's strange for the cast, it's not strange at all for readers. It's time travel 101.

As for reality being manufactured by chaos... I mean, chaos is basically god in the story. The totality of everything is manufactured by chaos. I don't think there's any insinuation in the story that the future the grail knights come from is in some capacity fake.

I agree, I see a lot of people here and in the fandom in general want so badly for this be a branching timeline type of future story where nothing is set in stone but the writing Nakaba has shown us thus far says the opposite imo. This is more than likely a linear type of time travel mechanic he’s using and despite what some may think to me it seems clear that the future the holy grail knights come from is where the story will end.

Like you said nobody telling the grail knights what happened with this incident isn’t strange it most likely has to do with the 4 knights themselves knowing that they would eventually go to the past and be apart of this so they didn’t want them having prior information on what happens as it could’ve changed the outcome.

 

[Demonspeed]

Did anyone even mention Mael by name in this series? I know he is alive and must be the SD but it's kinda funny to see Ludo's name first when Archangels never got mentioned before and his little brother is the only one alive.

 

[kkck]

Did anyone even mention Mael by name in this series? I know he is alive and must be the SD but it's kinda funny to see Ludo's name first when Archangels never got mentioned before and his little brother is the only one alive.

The only time he was shown IIRC was prior to cath invading liones and was alluded to being one of the people the gang could count on.

--- Double Post Merged, Yesterday at 7:43 PM, Original Post Date: Yesterday at 7:38 PM ---

Hmm, I wonder how the goddess realm works. The demon realm is a place that is covered in a deadly miasma that makes it deadly to other races. Imagine if the goddess realm is a place with weird cosmology and it's always bathed in light. Always noon, never night. I think the gawain reveals could imply she doesn't actually have the sunshine grace and it's been with mael the whole time. So we might be heading for a direction confrontation between an unrestrained sunshine empowered mael and pantscelot. Only for mael to get unceremoniously one shot.

 

[Covers]

lmaoo they caught ludo lacking... which means this happened after he fought deri and monspeet. since he didnt know about indura till then

Goddess clan can't stop taking Ls.

Demon Clan have Original demon, Indura, 10C, Behemoth, Six demon fodders?

While Goddess clan just the 4 Archangels.

I guess they're some other strong ones like Nanashi.

--- Double Post Merged, Yesterday at 7:54 PM, Original Post Date: Yesterday at 7:51 PM ---

I wonder if Mael gonna gives Gawain the grace in this arc? That would amp her?

--- Double Post Merged, Yesterday at 7:56 PM ---

Can't wait for Mel reaction to Zeldris potential death.

 

[Mountain-Photo-165]

If the assumption is that the entire future that has been alluded to is BS and pantscelot is basically dooming himself... Then sure, the story works somewhat better. Though I am not sure that is what nakaba is going for. Nakaba has a terrible cake eating/having ledger.

The people involved in this not talking about it is definitely not strange. We are talking time travel shenanigans. The most likely reason they didn't say anything is that they didn't want the holy grail knights to say anything. Even if you make a case it's strange for the cast, it's not strange at all for readers. It's time travel 101.

As for reality being manufactured by chaos... I mean, chaos is basically god in the story. The totality of everything is manufactured by chaos. I don't think there's any insinuation in the story that the future the grail knights come from is in some capacity fake.

I think the idea that other races and the Seven Deadly Sins themselves are considered a bunch of fairy tales in the future strongly implies that the future the Knights of The Holy Grail came from is artificially manufactured by some reality-warping powers.

After all, these events didn't happen 1,000 years ago—it has been less than 25 years. It simply hasn't been long enough for their existence to pass into myth.

There is clearly someone who warped reality to brainwash humanity and erase every trace of non-humans, including the Seven Deadly Sins themselves.

Are you suggesting this is a closed loop?

As in, the children traveled back in time to meet their parents, so the parents already knew their kids would eventually do so, which is why they treat the matter as a taboo to not alert their children of what's gonna happen ?

But a loop has to start somewhere. The loop would have initiated with the children traveling to the past, meaning the parents wouldn't have known about it beforehand in the original timeline. Therefore, it makes little sense for them to keep silent just to protect the timeline.

They never said Tristan was dead in the future, that’s only what we assumed based on how Ysaie talked about him. His dialogue about him made it sound like Tristan was never in his life or he was to young to remember him but then after fighting him we found out he actually does know Tristan and was raised by him.
Even after multiple chapters pass and Ysaie now realizes he’s in the past he never says anything about Tristan being dead in the future

If he really was dead I’m sure he would’ve said something or tried to warn him since the holy grail knights don’t care about telling them about the future since they already told them the other clans aren’t around in their time. To me nothing about their future is strange or abnormal as of yet it just seems that way to y'all because we’re missing a lot of context but the way Nakaba is writing implies their future is where the story inevitably leads

Ysaye met Tristan in the past and started crying as if he hadn't seen him in a long time. That scene basically says: 'Tristan is dead in the future.'

Also, how could you say the future isn't abnormal or strange? It seems like you haven't been paying attention.

The existence of non-humans, as well as the Seven Deadly Sins themselves, has become a fairy tale, a myth, and something unbelievable.

Keep in mind we're talking about 25 years into the future, not 1,000 years.

How could all of this become a mere myth so quickly? There is clearly something wrong with reality.

 

[Mighty Escanor]

A wild chapter with a brutal ending. Canceloth just butchered Zel into pieces. I could never see that coming! And I believed Nakaba wouldn't let Chaos Lance to go full berserk! Now that's a disaster. The other three were no match for him, and are currently trained by the perils! The gap is too huge. The unpredictability is refreshing. I like it tbh.

I don't know if a mention of AAs is actually a foreshadowing or simply a mean to humiliate them even more. An indura who could seal them for 100 days by itself, a true demonstration of GC's uselessness!

About the indura, Nakaba isn't doing a great thing imo. They are heavily focused on protecting the DR and its inhabitants. No rampage, no damages! So why treat them as mindless dangerous beast to hype then, while in battlefield, they act as loyal soldiers?!!!

 

[Rey151203]

But then again, animals don't possess souls, right? So what's the difference?

Animals have souls.

 

[Tristan]

See @Rey151203? There is no "power-level" there!! As @FKS mentioned, you need the actual Power of the DK and SD to seal Chaos, and that was totally expected, given the nature of Chaos.

 

[Mountain-Photo-165]

What are the chances that the Knights of the Holy Grail were brought to the past by 'Fate' itself?

Because Cath kept using Guinevere's power to mess up the timeline—even though Guinevere warned him not to resist fate or face the consequences—he didn't listen.

Gloxinia once said that only tiny changes are allowed to happen to Fate. If you make drastic changes, Fate is structured so that history is revised to force the world back to its original state.

We know Gloxinia and Drole sent King and Diane to the past inside their own bodies, but what brought them back to the present wasn't simply that the spell ended.

It was Fate itself that sent them back, meaning Fate has the ability to suddenly pull you into any point in time to fix it.

As for how Cath seemed to know of their coming, I think it's quite possible he received a prophecy from some oracle in Camelot.

This could be the exact same prophecy that King Bartra had, because let's not forget that Camelot also had the 4KOTA prophecy.

Cath just didn't know the details of their specific identities until they revealed them like idiots.

 

[kkck]

I think the idea that other races and the Seven Deadly Sins themselves are considered a bunch of fairy tales in the future strongly implies that the future the Knights of The Holy Grail came from is artificially manufactured by some reality-warping powers.

After all, these events didn't happen 1,000 years ago—it has been less than 25 years. It simply hasn't been long enough for their existence to pass into myth.

There is clearly someone who warped reality to brainwash humanity and erase every trace of non-humans, including the Seven Deadly Sins themselves.

Are you suggesting this is a closed loop?

As in, the children traveled back in time to meet their parents, so the parents already knew their kids would eventually do so, which is why they treat the matter as a taboo to not alert their children of what's gonna happen ?

But a loop has to start somewhere. The loop would have initiated with the children traveling to the past, meaning the parents wouldn't have known about it beforehand in the original timeline. Therefore, it makes little sense for them to keep silent just to protect the timeline.

A loop doesn't necessarily have to start anywhere. Causality being thrown out the window is one of those things that can make a time travel story annoying. Then again nakaba threw causality out the window well before time travel was a thing here.

I appreciate the theorizing into a better story but I just don't see how any of that is likely. There's just too many ifs at play for this to make any sense. A chaos entity creating a fake future filled with people with fake memories that sent kids with fake memories to meel the gang? I agree in that it is weird everyone 25 years from now will just not know about what happened. IIRC the grail knights did say their parents don't talk much about the past which definitely sounds like they are intentionally withholding information.

 

[Capalot98]

Are you suggesting this is a closed loop?

As in, the children traveled back in time to meet their parents, so the parents already knew their kids would eventually do so, which is why they treat the matter as a taboo to not alert their children of what's gonna happen ?

But a loop has to start somewhere. The loop would have initiated with the children traveling to the past, meaning the parents wouldn't have known about it beforehand in the original timeline. Therefore, it makes little sense for them to keep silent just to protect the timeline.



Ysaye met Tristan in the past and started crying as if he hadn't seen him in a long time. That scene basically says: 'Tristan is dead in the future.'

Also, how could you say the future isn't abnormal or strange? It seems like you haven't been paying attention.

The existence of non-humans, as well as the Seven Deadly Sins themselves, has become a fairy tale, a myth, and something unbelievable.

Keep in mind we're talking about 25 years into the future, not 1,000 years.

How could all of this become a mere myth so quickly? There is clearly something wrong with reality.

A closed loop doesn’t need a start point that’s literally the whole point of it. A closed loop just means every action inside the loop was always part of the timeline. Meaning the people that time travel don’t change history they just do things that lead to the future they came from. AOT is a perfect example of a closed loop since the mc Eren Yeager puts his younger self on the path that leads to his future but his younger self doesn’t do that without being influenced by the future so therefore there is not starting point just a never ending circle of cause and effect which is a closed loop

As for Tristan, Ysaie crying doesn’t automatically means he’s dead it could just indicate he hasn’t seen him a long period of time or maybe Tristan is away on a mission but death isn’t a forgone conclusion. And like I mentioned in my first comment if Tristan is dead then explain why Ysaie doesn’t say anything or try to warn his dad about what might happen to him. The holy grail knights don’t seem to care about telling the 4 knights future information so I’m sure warning Tristan that he’s gonna die is something he would’ve brought up by now

Going back to my first comment nothing is strange about the holy grail knights future we’re just missing context on what happened and what lead to their future. The clans not being there in the future could mean many things and just because they don’t know what happened to them doesn’t mean their parents don’t and their just keeping the information from them because again this is a closed loop

 

[Zezu1995]

Goddess clan can't stop taking Ls.

Demon Clan have Original demon, Indura, 10C, Behemoth, Six demon fodders?

While Goddess clan just the 4 Archangels.

I guess they're some other strong ones like Nanashi.

--- Double Post Merged, Yesterday at 7:54 PM, Original Post Date: Yesterday at 7:51 PM ---

I wonder if Mael gonna gives Gawain the grace in this arc? That would amp her?

--- Double Post Merged, Yesterday at 7:56 PM ---

Can't wait for Mel reaction to Zeldris potential death.

the goddess clan would be more powerful if they used their innate magic powers cuz some of them jenna , her sister, nerobasa all have innate magic which means other goddess does also yet all they do is spam ark

 

[tdtd1234]

What are the chances that the Knights of the Holy Grail were brought to the past by 'Fate' itself?

Because Cath kept using Guinevere's power to mess up the timeline—even though Guinevere warned him not to resist fate or face the consequences—he didn't listen.

Gloxinia once said that only tiny changes are allowed to happen to Fate. If you make drastic changes, Fate is structured so that history is revised to force the world back to its original state.

We know Gloxinia and Drole sent King and Diane to the past inside their own bodies, but what brought them back to the present wasn't simply that the spell ended.

It was Fate itself that sent them back, meaning Fate has the ability to suddenly pull you into any point in time to fix it.

As for how Cath seemed to know of their coming, I think it's quite possible he received a prophecy from some oracle in Camelot.

This could be the exact same prophecy that King Bartra had, because let's not forget that Camelot also had the 4KOTA prophecy.

Cath just didn't know the details of their specific identities until they revealed them like idiots.

I realy like the theory that they showed up due to Cath messing with fate, because the so called consequences weren't a big deal before.

But are we sure Cath knew they were coming? To me it looked like he just took advantage of the situation.

 

[Mountain-Photo-165]

I realy like the theory that they showed up due to Cath messing with fate, because the so called consequences weren't a big deal before.

But are we sure Cath knew they were coming? To me it looked like he just took advantage of the situation.

When Cath saw them , he said : Oh , it's you...

This implies that he knew of their coming but this doesn't imply that he knew their identities or that they're from the future.

The Idiots simply revealed who they were before him , Cath didn't know who they were but he certainly took advantage of the situation.