Discussion Maschenny Wants Baam to Fight Traumerei

[Cinera]

At the beginning of the Nest, Maschenny wondered to herself what Baam was capable of:

Spoiler

An alternate translation from Adios:

I wonder what the Irregular can even do here.

So one of her chief motivations when coming to the Nest was to see what Baam was truly capable of.


She then goes on to express the desire for Baam to become a vast wave of anger like the Tower has never seen before:

Spoiler

An alternate translation from Adios:

Come as a raging wave hitherto unseen.

So whatever Maschenny hopes for Baam to accomplish, it's something that's completely unprecedented. Something unimaginable. Something that would rewrite the very history of the Tower. On a completely different scale from a Regular besting a Ranker, something that has never once happened in all recorded history of the Tower.


She mentions that the scale of the story became much bigger than she expected and that people not even she can handle (the Family Leaders) became involved, so she kidnapped Jinsung and brought him to the Nest. Because he was like a breakwater for Baam and an important member of the Ha Family:

Spoiler

Later on, she declares Traumerei to be the "real enemy" of the story:

Spoiler

(Baam is of course, naturally the hero of said story).

It's important to note that Maschenny used Jinsung specifically in response to the involvement of the Family Leaders. That is, she sought to use Jinsung to manipulate Baam because a Family Leader had gotten involved.


Traumerei being the real enemy that Maschenny spoke of heavily suggests that she wants Baam to face Traumerei (why else would she seek to move him when Traumerei became involved?).



Furthermore, after Baam defeats White, she wonders to herself if Baam would truly be capable of satisfying her expectations:

Spoiler

In response, Jinsung warns Baam about Traumerei:

Spoiler

This IMO is strong confirmation that what Maschenny wants of Baam involves a confrontation with Traumerei.


Yet, it doesn't end there. Maschenny sends Baam and his friends into the Suspendium to get whatever is stored inside there:

Spoiler

Baam then hears a voice within the Suspendium:

Spoiler

The Voice tells Baam that he is "qualified" that he can "accept" it, and that it will lend him its power to take revenge on Lo Po Bia.


AA later says that there is a very high likelihood that the voice Baam heard is connected to what Maschenny wanted. Furthermore, even though Maschenny said that she didn't know what was stored inside the Suspendium, it looked to him like she was certain about it:

Spoiler

And subsequently foreshadows that the Voice might be a countermeasure to the Lo Po Bia Family Leader:

Spoiler

So this suggests a few things:

1. Maschenny knows what's stored inside the Suspendium.
2. What Maschenny wanted Baam to get was the Voice.
3. The Voice is a countermeasure to Traumerei.

We later learn a bit more information about the Voice:

• It wants revenge on Lo Po Bia Traumerei.
• It offers to give Baam its power.
• It can only be wielded by Irregulars.
  • It says that Baam is "qualified" to "accept" its power.
  • Only Irregulars could hear its voice.
• It's something that is extremely dangerous.
• It wants to see if Baam can defeat Traumerei.
  • Literally "drag Traumerei down into the Abyss".

So we're in a situation where:

1. Maschenny knows what the Voice is and that it can only be wielded by Irregulars.
   • I.e. Maschenny cannot wield it herself.
2. Maschenny sent Baam to get the Voice.

It seems as if rather than trying to retrieve an item from the Suspendium, she was trying to deliver the Voice to Baam. Considering the Voice's own grudge against Traumerei, it further reinforces the notion that she was trying to boost Baam in preparation for his impending confrontation with Traumerei.


Of course, the question of what exactly she expects of him in that confrontation has not yet been determined, but it does seem appear like she intends for them to fight.

 

[lazybum]

Baam renacting Baam vs Urek, where Viole somehow injured Urek. Baam will be spanked like a kid, but will somehow draw Rei's blood. Something shocking that violate current "rules" : FHs being invincible gods, eternal.

 

[Cinera]

Baam renacting Baam vs Urek, where Viole somehow injured Urek. Baam will be spanked like a kid, but will somehow draw Rei's blood. Something shocking that violate current "rules" : FHs being invincible gods, eternal.

Current Baam is a million times stronger than the Baam that fought Urek. Merely reenacting Baam vs Urek would be extremely disappointing.

FHs being invincible gods, eternal.

I don't believe it's impossible for the likes of Adori to injure the Family Leaders, so yeah, something that's just on the calibre of injuring them doesn't work.

Maybe (permanently) scarring or maiming Traumerei might work. A significant injury that even despite his ultra regeneration and immortality contract that Traumerei cannot recover from.

 

[lazybum]

Current Baam is a million times stronger than the Baam that fought Urek. Merely reenacting Baam vs Urek would be extremely disappointing.

Urek was looking down on Baam then. Also to readers it would be disappointing yes as it was done before, but that only is true for us readers. To the onlookers in the Nest, that's shocking.

I don't believe it's impossible for the likes of Adori to injure the Family Leaders, so yeah, something that's just on the calibre of injuring them doesn't work.

Dunno, perhaps Adori never tried so the rule of Zahard/FH invincible to others is not tested and so remain true for the moment.

Maybe (permanently) scarring or maiming Traumerei might work. A significant injury that even despite his ultra regeneration and immortality contract that Traumerei cannot recover from.

That would be fine. Another fun thing which will upset Rei greatly is Baam somehow steal Rei's shinheuh and Rei can't control it back. Not sure if this is possible, but it would piss Rei off and that is funny to me.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Working, so I'll have to admit I glossed through the OP. Will go back, but 2 questions:

a) wasn't it said somewhere that Maschenny was shocked or taken aback that there was a power on the way that even she couldn't control? Do you have that panel, and where does that play in all along if she planned to pit them against each other all along?

b) we know that only irregulars can hear it - from this we deduce with a bit of assumption that only irregulars can WIELD it - which may or may not be true. Probably, only an irregular can UNSEAL it, and hear it in doing so until it is unsealed. From that point, can anyone wield it, irregular or not? Maschenny does say to bring it back to her. So, either she knows what it is and thinks she's qualified to use it (right or wrong), or she has an idea what it is and thinks it COULD be used by her, but may in fact find out that her assumption is incorrect if indeed only an irregular can use it. Certainly only an irregular can use it to its full potential, because that's just how the story operates. But, maybe Mas can use it to a lesser extent in theory - much like NN could 'use' Acrinak (rather the opposite, that Acrinak could use his power to only some extent) but a better host would provide a better outcome for Acrinak's attacks.



I also am suspect that Mas truly knows what to expect. This *seems* to be something that Rei is/was handling solo, and his shame that he couldn't control. Although you never know where the intel came from - maybe a contractor working on the Nest for Rei lol.

 

[kkck]

Working, so I'll have to admit I glossed through the OP. Will go back, but 2 questions:

a) wasn't it said somewhere that Maschenny was shocked or taken aback that there was a power on the way that even she couldn't control? Do you have that panel, and where does that play in all along if she planned to pit them against each other all along?

b) we know that only irregulars can hear it - from this we deduce with a bit of assumption that only irregulars can WIELD it - which may or may not be true. Probably, only an irregular can UNSEAL it, and hear it in doing so until it is unsealed. From that point, can anyone wield it, irregular or not? Maschenny does say to bring it back to her. So, either she knows what it is and thinks she's qualified to use it (right or wrong), or she has an idea what it is and thinks it COULD be used by her, but may in fact find out that her assumption is incorrect if indeed only an irregular can use it. Certainly only an irregular can use it to its full potential, because that's just how the story operates. But, maybe Mas can use it to a lesser extent in theory - much like NN could 'use' Acrinak (rather the opposite, that Acrinak could use his power to only some extent) but a better host would provide a better outcome for Acrinak's attacks.



I also am suspect that Mas truly knows what to expect. This *seems* to be something that Rei is/was handling solo, and his shame that he couldn't control. Although you never know where the intel came from - maybe a contractor working on the Nest for Rei lol.

a.- Yeah, I remember something of the sort as well. Overall it feels like right now mascheny is sort of adjusting her plan to traumerei showing up. Her overall goal was almost clearly to make the following war as big as humanly possible though we lack information regarding the specifics of her plan, let alone what it looked like without traumerei getting involved. We also don't know who else might be backing her here. It's a stretch that the army wants to take a loss at the nest of course but on the other hand a massive war would appear to suit zahard (who issued the 3 orders) and adori (who is willing to carry them out).

Looking at the arc, if the objective is a massive war then a plain victory for zahard's army would actually be to mascheny's detriment. When mascheny an jinsung met she mentioned she wanted a war and to wake up the ancient powers that have been sleeping for however long. I think that what mascheny is aiming for is... hope. As of now the empire built around the great warriors is basically an invincible force. Tower residents have exactly zero chance of victory and they know it. So mascheny wants this war to end in such a way that even without a hard victory fug and the entire tower have hope that the inmutable invincibility of the empire has finally been shaken.

b.- To me this point read weird. As in, only an irregular could wield the power to its full potential. Whatever the voice is it's extremely likely its a tower resident and like every tower resident it has zero chance at victory against a great warrior. But it probably roamed around in the past being able to use its power to its full potential. And if that was the case then assuming the power can be granted it could be wielded to its full potential by other tower residents. The advantage of an irregular of course is that an irregular could conceivably strike at a family head anyways.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

a.- Yeah, I remember something of the sort as well. Overall it feels like right now mascheny is sort of adjusting her plan to traumerei showing up. Her overall goal was almost clearly to make the following war as big as humanly possible though we lack information regarding the specifics of her plan, let alone what it looked like without traumerei getting involved. We also don't know who else might be backing her here. It's a stretch that the army wants to take a loss at the nest of course but on the other hand a massive war would appear to suit zahard (who issued the 3 orders) and adori (who is willing to carry them out).

Looking at the arc, if the objective is a massive war then a plain victory for zahard's army would actually be to mascheny's detriment. When mascheny an jinsung met she mentioned she wanted a war and to wake up the ancient powers that have been sleeping for however long. I think that what mascheny is aiming for is... hope. As of now the empire built around the great warriors is basically an invincible force. Tower residents have exactly zero chance of victory and they know it. So mascheny wants this war to end in such a way that even without a hard victory fug and the entire tower have hope that the inmutable invincibility of the empire has finally been shaken.

I do have to wonder if Rei's arrival puts Mas into damage-control, or a backup plan. Until I find that panel (I'm certain Cin has it and can cite it by heart) it's hard to say, and even then who knows.

I doubt she'll end up burned here, or burning a bridge with Zahard. It FEELS too soon for that, but shit could pop off now that you have FH's moving and going to war. It's hard to say.

It does seem with my hazy recollection of her alluding to Rei that things are getting out of hand, even for her machinations at this point.

b.- To me this point read weird. As in, only an irregular could wield the power to its full potential. Whatever the voice is it's extremely likely its a tower resident and like every tower resident it has zero chance at victory against a great warrior. But it probably roamed around in the past being able to use its power to its full potential. And if that was the case then assuming the power can be granted it could be wielded to its full potential by other tower residents. The advantage of an irregular of course is that an irregular could conceivably strike at a family head anyways.

So, we DO know that Rei was stuffing SOMETHING into that seal, we see him talking about doing just that with Kirin in the flashback. Also, as noted multiple times, that is indeed his family crest. And, he's the resident mind-control FH.

So, some think it's a beast along the lines of your typical shinheuh, just one he couldn't control.

IF that's the case, it's not likely that Baam can control it at this point even (says a lot about the desire of it to be controlled though), and if Rei can't certainly Mas can't - at least against its will.

Traditional shinheuh also have to be controlled by, you know, being an anima. We know that Rei qualifies as the best in the tower, and again if he can't then no one can. We also know per SIU you can't just 'learn' to be an anima, you have to have the talent innately. Does this apply to Baam, probably as he gets all the things. But, it *probably* doesn't apply to Mas.

So, if Mas just thinks it's a shinheuh that any anima can control that makes little sense. In part that the greatest shinheuh couldn't, Rei, and in part because she's probably not an anima.

So if she DOES know what's in the box, then it's almost certainly not just some giant standard-ass shinheuh.



The other option is an ancient power, in the same vein as Khel and EVK's giants (or NN and Acrinak for that matter). You don't seem to need to be an anima, though they ARE shinheuh as creatures in the tower, just ancient ones with elemental powers. Maybe because the host functions as the 'bowl' or maybe that relationship between normal creatures and bowls is exempt with ancients. Them needing actual beings as bowls I like though.

Anyways, if it's an ancient power, anyone sufficiently strong enough could carry it around - I doubt EVK and Khel and NN were anima. It was more about them as individuals. Mas should then in theory be able to play host.

But then, why cannot anyone hear it but irregulars? I still think that has more to do with it being behind an irregular seal paywall than who can hear it AFTER it is unsealed. I'm sure after it's out it can interact with others that aren't irregulars as well, but that's just a hunch at this point.



But then it could just be a 13mo (though I think not likely) or something else entirely - though it is at least sentient and it was referred to as a beast/animal by Kirin in the FB.

 

[kkck]

I do have to wonder if Rei's arrival puts Mas into damage-control, or a backup plan. Until I find that panel (I'm certain Cin has it and can cite it by heart) it's hard to say, and even then who knows.

I doubt she'll end up burned here, or burning a bridge with Zahard. It FEELS too soon for that, but shit could pop off now that you have FH's moving and going to war. It's hard to say.

It does seem with my hazy recollection of her alluding to Rei that things are getting out of hand, even for her machinations at this point.



So, we DO know that Rei was stuffing SOMETHING into that seal, we see him talking about doing just that with Kirin in the flashback. Also, as noted multiple times, that is indeed his family crest. And, he's the resident mind-control FH.

So, some think it's a beast along the lines of your typical shinheuh, just one he couldn't control.

IF that's the case, it's not likely that Baam can control it at this point even (says a lot about the desire of it to be controlled though), and if Rei can't certainly Mas can't - at least against its will.

Traditional shinheuh also have to be controlled by, you know, being an anima. We know that Rei qualifies as the best in the tower, and again if he can't then no one can. We also know per SIU you can't just 'learn' to be an anima, you have to have the talent innately. Does this apply to Baam, probably as he gets all the things. But, it *probably* doesn't apply to Mas.

So, if Mas just thinks it's a shinheuh that any anima can control that makes little sense. In part that the greatest shinheuh couldn't, Rei, and in part because she's probably not an anima.

So if she DOES know what's in the box, then it's almost certainly not just some giant standard-ass shinheuh.



The other option is an ancient power, in the same vein as Khel and EVK's giants (or NN and Acrinak for that matter). You don't seem to need to be an anima, though they ARE shinheuh as creatures in the tower, just ancient ones with elemental powers. Maybe because the host functions as the 'bowl' or maybe that relationship between normal creatures and bowls is exempt with ancients. Them needing actual beings as bowls I like though.

Anyways, if it's an ancient power, anyone sufficiently strong enough could carry it around - I doubt EVK and Khel and NN were anima. It was more about them as individuals. Mas should then in theory be able to play host.

But then, why cannot anyone hear it but irregulars? I still think that has more to do with it being behind an irregular seal paywall than who can hear it AFTER it is unsealed. I'm sure after it's out it can interact with others that aren't irregulars as well, but that's just a hunch at this point.



But then it could just be a 13mo (though I think not likely) or something else entirely - though it is at least sentient and it was referred to as a beast/animal by Kirin in the FB.

Yeah, mascheny is definitely getting her way here. To me its a hard sell that she gets her war but doesn't get to participate in it. She even told jinsung she wanted to fight those ancient monsters.

I don't think it will be a shineuh. Shineuh are animals within the tower, they are not intelligent. I suppose this could change now but it'd be weird. An ancient species would make sense but it's probably something different from what we have seen. Even acrinak didn't seem to interest traumerei. Given that traumerei was seemingly trying to dominate it it's probably not going to be something that "needs" a host though. Though it might end up wanting bam to host it and get devoured instead. Since we know traumerei tried and failed to dominate this creature then its unlikely its a 13 month series.

Maybe its not that only irregulars can hear it, rather it's only speaking to bam?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Another thought, it could be the disembodied SOUL of a creature/beast/giant/whathaveyou... and as such only an irregular can be a receptacle for it to settle in (possibly to start regenerating). Souls, resurrections, beast souls... all these things are canon and with precedent in the series.

There's something about it existing in the very air/shinso around Baam and inside the cavity of the crystal as well.

a) this could certainly be in reference to how a soul sealed in a room - everywhere and anywhere as it has no corporeal shell
b) I think more likely is this is what a native one power looks like - they are elemental creatures. we have water and crystal left, and, hello, this is a crystalline structure. A crystal element existing all throughout and sealed into a crystal prison would make sense. It would be like the fire elephant existing inside every portion of a giant fire in the tower, or the earth minotaur existing inside a giant tree/forest. if it's a water element, well, it's a missed opportunity to have the crystal element in a giant crystal, but, water vapor works as well.
c) not unrelated to a and b, the actual suspendium itself could work as a 'bowl'... that's what a prison for shinheuh is anyways

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2022 ---

Yeah, mascheny is definitely getting her way here. To me its a hard sell that she gets her war but doesn't get to participate in it. She even told jinsung she wanted to fight those ancient monsters.

Sounds like biting off more than she can chew, but like King Midas she may get what she asks for. I always though she was just an instigator, a pot-stirrer, a catalyst that will set things on fire and watch like an arsonist rather than someone that wants to jump in the fray. I mean, what does she expect if she references FH's that she can't control/that pose a risk even to her, and then helps create a scenario to involve them in the first place? Unless, of course, she has no intent on doing the dirty work herself, referencing the OP.

I don't think it will be a shineuh. Shineuh are animals within the tower, they are not intelligent. I suppose this could change now but it'd be weird.

Yeah, 'just' another dumb species of giant fish or something would be a huge letdown, and not in line with the other clues. 'Oh, great, whoopee - Baam got a giant clownfish. Yayyyy....' says no one from the future.

THAT SAID - the 'thing' references throwing Rei into the abyss. Now, that's OBVIOUSLY a euphemism for defeating/killing/sealing or whatever Rei. But, there are aquatic sea-life that exist in the abyss as well.... so, yeah. Another sea reference by a possible sea creature. Note the word choice: it's not like it said 'to send that bastard to hell!'

An ancient species would make sense but it's probably something different from what we have seen. Even acrinak didn't seem to interest traumerei.

I think maybe Acrinak would have another opinion entirely if Rei had forced it into captivity for unknown thousands of years lol. It seemed more preoccupied with 'life finding a way' (Jurassic Park) in seeing how WW and his progeny could be a key to the hybrid bastardizations made by the experiments overcoming captivity though (something WW turned out to be an abysmal failure at) - instead allowing himself to be taken up to follow that interest of his.

On another note, I'm almost certain that Rei could not control Acrinak if he tried (certainly not everyone is in agreement). It's odd that he sent a huge force and just let it slip away from him, possibly thinking he killed it, if he had the possibility to make it a pokemon he can control, which we know he did want considering the effort to get it in the first place. Even Zahard wanted to make sure it was captured. Seems silly to just be ambivalent about capturing it then when it was right in front of him...

All that combined with Acrinak's own ability - to control the mind to some extent. Meaning I don't think a mind-controller could have its mind controlled - not even by Rei. And the very FB that shows the Acrinak also just so happens to show Rei is a failure at controlling everything, even though he claims he can.

Wild theory - it is said that Rei developed the ability to control beasts AFTER he entered the tower. What if he hosted an Acrinak (while still 'good' as one of the 13 adventurers) wayyyy back in the day, thus giving him that ability? We do know that Ancient One DD's did climb with the adventurers for a time, before Zahard betrayed them.

Given that traumerei was seemingly trying to dominate it it's probably not going to be something that "needs" a host though.

Which we keep going back to the native beasts and other ancients though. From Acrinak to EVK/Khel's beasts, those ancients seem to need a host. Female Acrinak?

Though it might end up wanting bam to host it and get devoured instead.

Yeah, we're all kind of talking like it's just going to go quietly into Baam's internal cave. The reference to it being so dangerous could mean Baam has to best it first. Maybe that itself will be yet another struggle before we can clear up the mystery.

Since we know traumerei tried and failed to dominate this creature then its unlikely its a 13 month series.

Almost certainly not a 13mo at this point. That and referring to it as a beast/animal. And his whole existence is focused on beasts anyways.

Maybe its not that only irregulars can hear it, rather it's only speaking to bam?

I thought it was clear that Baam is the first since the FH's to be able to hear it's voice? That's just irregulars by that comment, no?

 

[kkck]

Sounds like biting off more than she can chew, but like King Midas she may get what she asks for. I always though she was just an instigator, a pot-stirrer, a catalyst that will set things on fire and watch like an arsonist rather than someone that wants to jump in the fray. I mean, what does she expect if she references FH's that she can't control/that pose a risk even to her, and then helps create a scenario to involve them in the first place? Unless, of course, she has no intent on doing the dirty work herself, referencing the OP.

Yeah, 'just' another dumb species of giant fish or something would be a huge letdown, and not in line with the other clues. 'Oh, great, whoopee - Baam got a giant clownfish. Yayyyy....' says no one from the future.

THAT SAID - the 'thing' references throwing Rei into the abyss. Now, that's OBVIOUSLY a euphemism for defeating/killing/sealing or whatever Rei. But, there are aquatic sea-life that exist in the abyss as well.... so, yeah. Another sea reference by a possible sea creature. Note the word choice: it's not like it said 'to send that bastard to hell!'

I think maybe Acrinak would have another opinion entirely if Rei had forced it into captivity for unknown thousands of years lol. It seemed more preoccupied with 'life finding a way' (Jurassic Park) in seeing how WW and his progeny could be a key to the hybrid bastardizations made by the experiments overcoming captivity though (something WW turned out to be an abysmal failure at) - instead allowing himself to be taken up to follow that interest of his.

On another note, I'm almost certain that Rei could not control Acrinak if he tried (certainly not everyone is in agreement). It's odd that he sent a huge force and just let it slip away from him, possibly thinking he killed it, if he had the possibility to make it a pokemon he can control, which we know he did want considering the effort to get it in the first place. Even Zahard wanted to make sure it was captured. Seems silly to just be ambivalent about capturing it then when it was right in front of him...

All that combined with Acrinak's own ability - to control the mind to some extent. Meaning I don't think a mind-controller could have its mind controlled - not even by Rei. And the very FB that shows the Acrinak also just so happens to show Rei is a failure at controlling everything, even though he claims he can.

Wild theory - it is said that Rei developed the ability to control beasts AFTER he entered the tower. What if he hosted an Acrinak (while still 'good' as one of the 13 adventurers) wayyyy back in the day, thus giving him that ability? We do know that Ancient One DD's did climb with the adventurers for a time, before Zahard betrayed them.

Which we keep going back to the native beasts and other ancients though. From Acrinak to EVK/Khel's beasts, those ancients seem to need a host. Female Acrinak?

Yeah, we're all kind of talking like it's just going to go quietly into Baam's internal cave. The reference to it being so dangerous could mean Baam has to best it first. Maybe that itself will be yet another struggle before we can clear up the mystery.

Almost certainly not a 13mo at this point. That and referring to it as a beast/animal. And his whole existence is focused on beasts anyways.

I thought it was clear that Baam is the first since the FH's to be able to hear it's voice? That's just irregulars by that comment, no?

It... depends? If mascheny is anything like she was at the hidden floor then dying while having fun fighting is as good an ending as any. A war that engulfs the tower is always going to be too much for any one resident (though not irregulars).

That's pretty common though. Shinsoo means divine water, shineuh means divine fish... The tower has been referred to as a fishbowl and character nicknames usually come from big ass fish. It could be a sort of sentient fish but the water body imagery is pretty common in the tower.

No idea if traumerei could control acrinak... Traumerei barely seemed to acknowledge it beyond throwing a pokemon at it. I am curious as to what traumerei thinks of beings that need a host to survive... Maybe those are anima proof?

To me it makes sense that anima abilities could come from some ancient species. Though I find it unlikely that it will be a native one like rak or the elephant.

Ah, gonna reread the chapter then. I didn't remember the bit with it saying only bam could hear him.

 

[Cinera]

Urek was looking down on Baam then. Also to readers it would be disappointing yes as it was done before, but that only is true for us readers. To the onlookers in the Nest, that's shocking.

But the onlookers aren't relevant. Baam defeating a Ranker rewrote the history of the Tower but Maschenny was not impressed by it.

I don't think Baam merely replicating the Urek accomplishment on Traumerei will satisfy the expectations that Maschenny has of Baam.

And as for the Voice, it explicitly wants Baam to "drag Traumerei down into the Abyss".

Dunno, perhaps Adori never tried so the rule of Zahard/FH invincible to others is not tested and so remain true for the moment.

I mean nothing suggests that the Great Warriors cannot be injured by Regulars. On the contrary, there's quite a lot suggesting that the Top 20 Regulars can give them challenging fights:

• Molic One P. GR was a warrior that not even Zahard could take lightly.
• Enne Zahard's strength was acknowledged by the Family Leaders.
• Luslec acting is said to require a response from a Family Leader and result in all out war.
• Baek Ryun is said to be the most talented Wave Controller in the Tower.
  • 3 of the Great Warriors are Wave Controllers.
• Adori Zahard was said to be capable of annihilating the Po Bidau Family.

The Great Warriors can merely never be defeated by the Regulars, but they are immortal, so it's not clear how much of that is a sheer power gap between them. There isn't anything suggesting that they can never be challenged in combat by the Regulars (and there's quite a lot suggesting that they can and have been).


So I completely reject the core premise (that Baam managing to injure Traumerei would be unprecedented).

That would be fine. Another fun thing which will upset Rei greatly is Baam somehow steal Rei's shinheuh and Rei can't control it back. Not sure if this is possible, but it would piss Rei off and that is funny to me.

I'd hate it. Baam is not an Anima. He should not surpass one of the Family Leaders in their core position when he doesn't even have that position himself.

 

[Arjuna]

I think Maschenny really wants to see what is the potential of Baam so I agree with your post.

Also like Maschenny I am also curious how far Baam may go against Traumerai at this point.Can he impress him with his strength or actually defeats him?I want to see it.


Oh btw Cinera i posted a question in your signature post in profile.I think you missed it.

 

[Cinera]

a) wasn't it said somewhere that Maschenny was shocked or taken aback that there was a power on the way that even she couldn't control? Do you have that panel, and where does that play in all along if she planned to pit them against each other all along?

Actually, you're just misrecalling the scene. Here's the panel:

Spoiler

Maschenny is saying that the Family Leaders got involved in the "story", and that's why she kept Jinsung alive and brought him to the Nest. Given the reference to Jinsung, she's obviously referring to before the Nest.

But, she explicitly says that she kidnapped Jinsung because the Family Leaders became involved. That isn't evidence against Maschenny trying to pit them against each other, but rather, evidence in favour of it.

She thereafter says that the "real villain" of the story had not yet arrived:

Spoiler

(The above is obviously a reference to Traumerei).

b) we know that only irregulars can hear it - from this we deduce with a bit of assumption that only irregulars can WIELD it - which may or may not be true. Probably, only an irregular can UNSEAL it, and hear it in doing so until it is unsealed. From that point, can anyone wield it, irregular or not? Maschenny does say to bring it back to her. So, either she knows what it is and thinks she's qualified to use it (right or wrong), or she has an idea what it is and thinks it COULD be used by her, but may in fact find out that her assumption is incorrect if indeed only an irregular can use it. Certainly only an irregular can use it to its full potential, because that's just how the story operates. But, maybe Mas can use it to a lesser extent in theory - much like NN could 'use' Acrinak (rather the opposite, that Acrinak could use his power to only some extent) but a better host would provide a better outcome for Acrinak's attacks.

Or Maschenny never truly wanted the item for herself and merely wanted to deliver it to Baam.

I also am suspect that Mas truly knows what to expect. This *seems* to be something that Rei is/was handling solo, and his shame that he couldn't control. Although you never know where the intel came from - maybe a contractor working on the Nest for Rei lol.

AA says otherwise:

Spoiler

He says that:
A. The Voice is what Maschenny sent Baam for.

Then there is a high possibility that this is related to the thing she mentioned.

B. Maschenny knows that the Voice is.

But it looked to me that she had some kind of a certitude.

AA is rarely ever wrong about these kinds of things, so I'm inclined to trust his judgement here.


Also, not to be rude, but please do read the entire OP. I feel like I already addressed some of these points adequately in it.

 

[Shadowlord123]

It seems to be her intention, yes. Unless the expectations she was talking about were just about bringing her what's inside the Suspendium after successfully escaping there (something that even she doesn't really know how to do).

 

[Cinera]

a.- Yeah, I remember something of the sort as well. Overall it feels like right now mascheny is sort of adjusting her plan to traumerei showing up. Her overall goal was almost clearly to make the following war as big as humanly possible though we lack information regarding the specifics of her plan, let alone what it looked like without traumerei getting involved. We also don't know who else might be backing her here. It's a stretch that the army wants to take a loss at the nest of course but on the other hand a massive war would appear to suit zahard (who issued the 3 orders) and adori (who is willing to carry them out).

No, you're misrecalling the scene.

Maschenny brought Jinsung to the Nest specifically because the Family Leaders (including Traumerei became involved in the story):

Spoiler

So it's impossible for her to be adjusting her current plans to Traumerei showing up. She only decided to bring Jinsung to the Nest because Traumerei was now involved.

b.- To me this point read weird. As in, only an irregular could wield the power to its full potential. Whatever the voice is it's extremely likely its a tower resident and like every tower resident it has zero chance at victory against a great warrior. But it probably roamed around in the past being able to use its power to its full potential. And if that was the case then assuming the power can be granted it could be wielded to its full potential by other tower residents. The advantage of an irregular of course is that an irregular could conceivably strike at a family head anyways.

No, only an Irregular can hear its voice. Only Irregulars are qualified to wield it:

Spoiler

This headcanon of yours is a flat out contradiction of the Webtoon.

I do have to wonder if Rei's arrival puts Mas into damage-control, or a backup plan. Until I find that panel (I'm certain Cin has it and can cite it by heart) it's hard to say, and even then who knows.

I doubt she'll end up burned here, or burning a bridge with Zahard. It FEELS too soon for that, but shit could pop off now that you have FH's moving and going to war. It's hard to say.

It does seem with my hazy recollection of her alluding to Rei that things are getting out of hand, even for her machinations at this point.

As I addressed above, things did get out of hand, but that was before the Nest. Keeping Jinsung alive and bringing him to the Nest was specifically because the Family Leaders became involved.

So, we DO know that Rei was stuffing SOMETHING into that seal, we see him talking about doing just that with Kirin in the flashback. Also, as noted multiple times, that is indeed his family crest. And, he's the resident mind-control FH.

So, some think it's a beast along the lines of your typical shinheuh, just one he couldn't control.

IF that's the case, it's not likely that Baam can control it at this point even (says a lot about the desire of it to be controlled though), and if Rei can't certainly Mas can't - at least against its will.

Traditional shinheuh also have to be controlled by, you know, being an anima. We know that Rei qualifies as the best in the tower, and again if he can't then no one can. We also know per SIU you can't just 'learn' to be an anima, you have to have the talent innately. Does this apply to Baam, probably as he gets all the things. But, it *probably* doesn't apply to Mas.

So, if Mas just thinks it's a shinheuh that any anima can control that makes little sense. In part that the greatest shinheuh couldn't, Rei, and in part because she's probably not an anima.

So if she DOES know what's in the box, then it's almost certainly not just some giant standard-ass shinheuh.

The Voice says that Baam is "qualified":

Spoiler

That he is capable of "accepting" it, and that it will lend Baam its power to take revenge on Traumerei:

Spoiler

Rather than a Shinheuh to be controlled by an Anima, it sounds more like something that needs a host to utilise its power. Perhaps a Demon, Thryssa or Ancient Species.

The Voice wondering if Baam can be the one to defeat Traumerei (despite it clearly desiring to take revenge on Traumerei in its own right) reinforces the notion that it's something that needs a host to function. It is not capable of combating Traumerei by itself. So it's wondering if its next host/vessel (Baam) would be capable of fulfilling its vendetta.

The other option is an ancient power, in the same vein as Khel and EVK's giants (or NN and Acrinak for that matter). You don't seem to need to be an anima, though they ARE shinheuh as creatures in the tower, just ancient ones with elemental powers. Maybe because the host functions as the 'bowl' or maybe that relationship between normal creatures and bowls is exempt with ancients. Them needing actual beings as bowls I like though.

Anyways, if it's an ancient power, anyone sufficiently strong enough could carry it around - I doubt EVK and Khel and NN were anima. It was more about them as individuals. Mas should then in theory be able to play host.

But then, why cannot anyone hear it but irregulars? I still think that has more to do with it being behind an irregular seal paywall than who can hear it AFTER it is unsealed. I'm sure after it's out it can interact with others that aren't irregulars as well, but that's just a hunch at this point.

I think that:

1. It's something that needs a host to function.
2. It can only be wielded by Irregulars.
3. Maschenny wanted to deliver it to Baam.
   • Asking Baam to collect it was merely a ruse to convince him to accept it.
   • It's something that is "extremely dangerous" is she told Baam to take it in, he may have refused to do so.
   • She also hasn't revealed to Baam that she intends for him to fight Traumerei.

But then it could just be a 13mo (though I think not likely)

It can't be a 13 Month Weapon:

1. Princesses are qualified to accept the 13 Month Weapons.
2. Princesses can hear the voice of the 13 Month Weapons.
3. The 13 Month Weapons would not have a vendetta against Traumerei.

and it was referred to as a beast/animal by Kirin in the FB.

It is likely — though not confirmed — that the Voice is the animal that Kirin spoke of. I am however not convinced that it is.

Rei called that animal a "trifle". Meanwhile, Baam calls the Voice "extremely dangerous".

 

[Shadowlord123]

There's a very good chance that this animal/trifle that Traumerei and Kirin spoke of is the voice calling for Baam right now. Traumerei visited the Nest personally to see it and it made him feel an emotion he didn't expect to feel from a trifle.Whether Maschenny has a solid idea of it or not, we don't know for sure.

Also @Cinera , stop asking me to filler you in in this thread, I'm running out of ideas

 

[Cinera]

She even told jinsung she wanted to fight those ancient monsters.

No, she did not say this.

She said that the powers of the Tower that have been maintaining a delicate balance for aeons have finally begun to move against each other:

Spoiler

She merely listed the Ancient Beasts as one of those powers.

It's merely echoing the same sentiment put forward by Gustang:

Spoiler

And then by the Narrator:

Spoiler

That a rift had begun to form between massive powers that became too big to coexist.

Maybe its not that only irregulars can hear it, rather it's only speaking to bam?

It outright said that only the 10 Family Leaders could hear its Voice. That finally someone else who can hear its Voice has entered the Tower. Only Irregulars enter the Tower.

Can you please stop ignoring the Webtoon? A lot of your statements about the Voice basically ignore the sparse information that we have about it to date. It's very frustrating.

Another thought, it could be the disembodied SOUL of a creature/beast/giant/whathaveyou... and as such only an irregular can be a receptacle for it to settle in (possibly to start regenerating). Souls, resurrections, beast souls... all these things are canon and with precedent in the series.

There's something about it existing in the very air/shinso around Baam and inside the cavity of the crystal as well.

a) this could certainly be in reference to how a soul sealed in a room - everywhere and anywhere as it has no corporeal shell
b) I think more likely is this is what a native one power looks like - they are elemental creatures. we have water and crystal left, and, hello, this is a crystalline structure. A crystal element existing all throughout and sealed into a crystal prison would make sense. It would be like the fire elephant existing inside every portion of a giant fire in the tower, or the earth minotaur existing inside a giant tree/forest. if it's a water element, well, it's a missed opportunity to have the crystal element in a giant crystal, but, water vapor works as well.
c) not unrelated to a and b, the actual suspendium itself could work as a 'bowl'... that's what a prison for shinheuh is anyways

C. seems to be the most likely to me. That the entire Suspendium is its "bowl".

Sounds like biting off more than she can chew, but like King Midas she may get what she asks for. I always though she was just an instigator, a pot-stirrer, a catalyst that will set things on fire and watch like an arsonist rather than someone that wants to jump in the fray. I mean, what does she expect if she references FH's that she can't control/that pose a risk even to her, and then helps create a scenario to involve them in the first place? Unless, of course, she has no intent on doing the dirty work herself, referencing the OP.

I mean this entire affair (kidnapping Jinsung, bringing him to the Nest, sending Baam into the Suspendium) was borne of Maschenny's investment in Baam's story:

Spoiler

She wants to see that story become more interesting.

I think maybe Acrinak would have another opinion entirely if Rei had forced it into captivity for unknown thousands of years lol. It seemed more preoccupied with 'life finding a way' (Jurassic Park) in seeing how WW and his progeny could be a key to the hybrid bastardizations made by the experiments overcoming captivity though (something WW turned out to be an abysmal failure at) - instead allowing himself to be taken up to follow that interest of his.

On another note, I'm almost certain that Rei could not control Acrinak if he tried (certainly not everyone is in agreement). It's odd that he sent a huge force and just let it slip away from him, possibly thinking he killed it, if he had the possibility to make it a pokemon he can control, which we know he did want considering the effort to get it in the first place. Even Zahard wanted to make sure it was captured. Seems silly to just be ambivalent about capturing it then when it was right in front of him...

All that combined with Acrinak's own ability - to control the mind to some extent. Meaning I don't think a mind-controller could have its mind controlled - not even by Rei. And the very FB that shows the Acrinak also just so happens to show Rei is a failure at controlling everything, even though he claims he can.

Wild theory - it is said that Rei developed the ability to control beasts AFTER he entered the tower. What if he hosted an Acrinak (while still 'good' as one of the 13 adventurers) wayyyy back in the day, thus giving him that ability? We do know that Ancient One DD's did climb with the adventurers for a time, before Zahard betrayed them.

I disagree because:

1. Traumerei told Neneya that he can control all the trifles in the Tower after she brought out Acrinak.
2. Traumerei said that death to him is something he grants to things that have lost the value to be dominated.
   • That is, he tried to kill her because she was not worth dominating.

Traumerei clearly implies that he thinks that he can dominate Acrinak.

Yeah, we're all kind of talking like it's just going to go quietly into Baam's internal cave. The reference to it being so dangerous could mean Baam has to best it first. Maybe that itself will be yet another struggle before we can clear up the mystery.

It said that it will lend Baam its power to take revenge on Traumerei. It sounds like it's going to be fully compliant with Baam (at least until they escape the Nest).

 

[Arjuna]

.



It said that it will lend Baam its power to take revenge on Traumerei. It sounds like it's going to be fully compliant with Baam (at least until they escape the Nest).

I don't think SIU will ever take away any powerup he gives to Baam,maybe Baam will be able to use it only under extraordinary circumstances or it will have some side-effects but i think the powerup that he is going to get will remain.

 

[Cinera]

I don't think SIU will ever take away any powerup he gives to Baam,maybe Baam will be able to use it only under extraordinary circumstances or it will have some side-effects but i think the powerup that he is going to get will remain.

I agree with this.

 

[King Dryst]

I don't think SIU will ever take away any powerup he gives to Baam,maybe Baam will be able to use it only under extraordinary circumstances or it will have some side-effects but i think the powerup that he is going to get will remain.

Honestly he's probably just going to consume it. This being doesn't seem to quite know what it's signing up for in going into Baam.