Discussion Guides Discussion Thread.

[Jammin]

In light of some recent things that have come up in the story I wanted to start a discussion about guides. What they are. How they work. What they should do versus what they actually do. What we think of them as a concept. And what their limitations are.

Guides are, of course, beings who can see paths in the tower and using this intuition to assist others in the tower in getting to where they want or need to go. This ability extends seeing or sensing the future. This however does not apply to Rachel and is unknown if it applies to any other irregulars.

There are two known types.

Red Witches (Such as Hwa Ryun)
Whose specialty is seeing "fate".

Grey Dwarves (Such as Evan)
Whose specialty is seeing "crossroads"

Both have the ability to find hidden things in the tower, natural ability to navigate mazes and traps, possess some ability so foresee their own future, and a general strong sense of intuition.

We have seen however that these abilities have limitations. As Hwa Ryun for example was misled by Rachel using Emily to distort information. Establishing them as fallible. The floor of death was also a location that made their abilities unusable suggesting a possibly connection between their abilities and guardians; as the primary difference between the floor of death and a regular floor is that the guardian is dead.

My take:

Guides are an odd thing to me and somewhat worrisome from a storytelling perspective as they're role is often paradoxical in how they operate. To explain what I mean think of when Hwa Ryun brought Baam to the Hell Train. This was characterized as her showing him "his path" but in reality he never would have went there if she hadn't told him to go there. This is a type of self fulfilling prophecy. Where a prediction starts out as false then through the action of making the prediction causes itself to become true. As a result, what you often end up with isn't a realization of destiny but instead the manipulation of the plot by a character. Which tends to leave a bad taste as it undermines character agency.

So what do you think about guides?

 

[kkck]

Easy there, research on guides is forbidden by the great king of the tower Zahard.
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Anyways,I don't specifically remember hwa ryun guiding bam to the hell train as her showing him his path. Wasn't it more like she showed her "a path" that led to what bam wanted? Hwa ryun has been making the point that bam is following his own path.

My take on paths is that in context they are more like... possibilities. So bam asks hwa ryun how to get something done and hwa ryun gets to peek at multiple possibilities and provides the best alternative she can. Of course, hwa ryun can choose how helpful she is.

As far as evan goes, I am not sure of what he is supposed to do. What does seeing crossroads mean? All of the stuff I can think about makes this sounds nigh worthless.

Another thing to consider here is how it all plays out with what SIU said regarding fate in TUS. That the past is fixed and thus limits the future. That the biggest aspect to consider regarding fate is axis. Free will not being that much of a thing. Guides being a thing and being shown possibilities of the future even though they can in reality barely impact it seems a bit like a joke.

 

[Jammin]

Easy there, research on guides is forbidden by the great king of the tower Zahard.
.
.
.
.

Anyways,I don't specifically remember hwa ryun guiding bam to the hell train as her showing him his path. Wasn't it more like she showed her "a path" that led to what bam wanted? Hwa ryun has been making the point that bam is following his own path.

My take on paths is that in context they are more like... possibilities. So bam asks hwa ryun how to get something done and hwa ryun gets to peek at multiple possibilities and provides the best alternative she can. Of course, hwa ryun can choose how helpful she is.

As far as evan goes, I am not sure of what he is supposed to do. What does seeing crossroads mean? All of the stuff I can think about makes this sounds nigh worthless.

Another thing to consider here is how it all plays out with what SIU said regarding fate in TUS. That the past is fixed and thus limits the future. That the biggest aspect to consider regarding fate is axis. Free will not being that much of a thing. Guides being a thing and being shown possibilities of the future even though they can in reality barely impact it seems a bit like a joke.

Well, one could say she used Rachel to lure him to the hell train. Either way it's not a place he would have ever gone if she hadn't told him to go there. So it wasn't a possible "fate" until she made is so. Just look at the situation approaching the final station. She actually said "Just trust me and do what I say". That's taking away Baam's character agency because she's leading him along.

In the greater sense I doubt the future is fixed because, as the Matrix trilogy spectacularly demonstrated, nothing can ruin a story quite like fatalism or determinism. Because both suggest that choice is an illusion. And therefor negate the value of choices and undermine the story. So even if that was the original intent I doubt Tower of God would go down that road. So I expect we're going to learn guides are more limited. Like perhaps a function of the tower used to control events. That kind of thing.

And I think we've already seen that whatever system is in place is imperfect. Hwa Ryun's foresight for example is flawed. It's failed her at least twice. Once due to Emily creating variables she couldn't predict. Again on the floor of death. It was also somehow interfered with on the hell train.

If it was a true ability to read fate in a fatalistic or deterministic way then interfering with it shouldn't be possible. And shouldn't be effected by location or surroundings.

 

[Ripcord]

Quite a good thread. There had been some suspicion before the last chapter that Red Witches and Silver Dwarfs were different and I’ll start there.

My take on the difference is this: Red Witches are good at seeing the ends of a path though to them the means are more murky. They are far-sighted. They guess what path to take based on the end they want to achieve - for example if Hwaryun sees a fate with Bam alive and with the second thorn and Boro is there she will tell Boro to be in that group, though what Boro will do no one really can tell.

For silver dwarfs they can see near-term choices one would have to make: stay still so the eel eats you then stab it and live vs run and then die - in this case Evan seeing Bam on the Floor of Tests with the Black March is unlikely, whereas Hwaryun would have seen that (knowing Bam would use the Black March to survive) but not necessarily known Bam had to stand still to defeat the eel.

So basically Red Witches need to use deductive reasoning and Silver Dwarfs use inductive reasoning and in a sense they’re both flying by the seat of their pants to get where they want to go.

Ignore in brackets if your head explodes [in physics there is an equation called a wave function that contains all the information about an object. In principle if you know the wave function for an object and it’s environment completely you know where it’s been and exactly where it’s going. However, no one can solve such a thing for anything bigger than a hydrogen atom, computers are too slow].

The way I see it, guides see the flow of shinsoo in the Tower (if it’s predicable when a guardian is present) and can conclude what will happen to everything and everyone connected to it. I find Evan’s ability more palatable and plausible (as he would be reading shinsoo close to him) than Hwaryun who seems to read shinsoo that could be even floors away from where she is (for example knowing exactly how she will die).

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2018 ---

I would also add that irregulars cause a proble with reading fate or choices because irregulars are not bound by normal flows of shinsoo as limited by contracts. If they act outside of those contracts then reading the path would become more difficult/impossible. Since Emily is a synthetic being she is also outside of these contracts it seems and can affect the flow of shinsoo in unpredictable ways. Why Flux is incapable of this I don’t know.

 

[shaheer]

All i know is Evan is the most useless existence so far. Hwya ryun has been manipulating half of the moves the guys do, Evans introspection so far meant zilch given he had no introspection.
Whatever cross roads he sees apparently doesnt even occur during a hefty long train ride from 44 th floor to 52. That is being super useless as a guide.
His Enna core ability and other items are quite cool but lets face it if you are a high ranker of somewhere around 200 rank these are the least you should have.
Given his Rank which i believe he got due to his Guide abilities you would expect he would run the show not Hwya Ryun

 

[Ripcord]

All i know is Evan is the most useless existence so far. Hwya ryun has been manipulating half of the moves the guys do, Evans introspection so far meant zilch given he had no introspection.
Whatever cross roads he sees apparently doesnt even occur during a hefty long train ride from 44 th floor to 52. That is being super useless as a guide.
His Enna core ability and other items are quite cool but lets face it if you are a high ranker of somewhere around 200 rank these are the least you should have.
Given his Rank which i believe he got due to his Guide abilities you would expect he would run the show not Hwya Ryun

Whoa whoa whoa

I think you’re being way to harsh on Evan and too forgiving to Hwaryun. Your perspective is like getting upset at a fork because it doesn’t cut your meat like a knife does. Now we know Evan is a different kind of guide so we should judge them accordingly. You want to say you find a Red Witch type of guide more appealing, I can accept that, although I would bet that it’s hard to control an agenda when working with one. Yuri likes to be more in control so a Silver Dwarf makes more sense for her (and the Zahard empire at large for that matter).

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 4, 2018 ---

We also know that guide abilities didn’t work well on the train - Hwaryun stated that for herself, I am sure it applied to Evan also.

Regarding Evan’s successes, he got Yuri to meet up with Anak and Androssi (saving them and retrieving the two 13 months), he got Yuri to rescue Bam and company from the acid, and he was quite capable to protect Regulars from Karaka and Yuri, which I might add is a moment that Hwaryun would be completely useless.

My guess is that the two kinds of guides work against one another quite a bit. Red Witches see the long game and Silver Dwarfs see close up, so one can mess with the other. Also I would add that I don’t know what Evan’s task as a guide really is - is it to help Bam and Co climb or just help Yuri? I doubt his goals are the same as Hwaryun so comparing his effectiveness there isn’t fair either.

 

[shaheer]

You want to say you find a Red Witch type of guide more appealing, I can accept that, although I would bet that it’s hard to control an agenda when working with one

What does a Silver Dwarf guide do apart from asking a Red Witch what is going to happen? Even HR saw that Yuri is coming through that acid pit and made others go to that area, So what ever silver dwarfs do Red witch can do and they can do something extra. As far as Karkara is involved he is a High Ranker Hwya Ryun isnt strong she got done in by Refeljo but she is a dam* good guide in the sense she can tell what others are going to do like sharingan and plan the whole situation knowing ahead that Zahard is going to try to kill off people in the train and what not.

 

[Ripcord]

What does a Silver Dwarf guide do apart from asking a Red Witch what is going to happen? Even HR saw that Yuri is coming through that acid pit and made others go to that area, So what ever silver dwarfs do Red witch can do and they can do something extra. As far as Karkara is involved he is a High Ranker Hwya Ryun isnt strong she got done in by Refeljo but she is a dam* good guide in the sense she can tell what others are going to do like sharingan and plan the whole situation knowing ahead that Zahard is going to try to kill off people in the train and what not.

Ok first off it seems you didn’t read my description about the differences in how Evan and Hwaryun see paths. I’ll say it again.

Hwaryun can see outcomes far away in time. For example, before they all got on the Hell Train she saw that Bam would be in a situation where he’d have to get rid of companions so she told him to find throwaways (funny that some of them are the best riders on the Hell Train...). Basically she has to plan all of her moves in advance like chess and try to stay ahead of everyone else.

Evan can’t see things far away, but he is good at seeing up close choices. For example he knew what Bam should do to beat the Steel Eel, whereas Hwaryun wouldn’t have know that Bam should stand still and be eaten.

It’s been established CANNON by Evan that the two guides see things differently, meaning that Evan can do things Hwaryun can’t and vice versa. In terms of the acid pit, perhaps Hwaryun saw a fate where Bam was rescued by Yuri through acid so when that moment came it appeared she could see the path but she’d already seen that moment before. However, she is unable to see all the steps that Bam needed to take to get there.

Someone who can see fates may seem more in control than they actually are.

 

[kkck]

What does a Silver Dwarf guide do apart from asking a Red Witch what is going to happen? Even HR saw that Yuri is coming through that acid pit and made others go to that area, So what ever silver dwarfs do Red witch can do and they can do something extra. As far as Karkara is involved he is a High Ranker Hwya Ryun isnt strong she got done in by Refeljo but she is a dam* good guide in the sense she can tell what others are going to do like sharingan and plan the whole situation knowing ahead that Zahard is going to try to kill off people in the train and what not.

I've been giving this a bit of thought and tried to remember times when we have seen their guide voodoo in actions. Here is what I am thinking regarding evan:

There are three instances that I recall where evan has clearly used his guide voodoo. The first is when bam took the test at headon's floor. Evan saw the path involving bam stabbing the shineiu's mouth or whatever. The second is when yuri got into the train. It was repelista that tipped them off regarding the train but IIRC correctly it was with evan's guidance that they managed to do it. And then finally when evan told yuri to ride the acid tube or something to where bam is.

Now, seeing those cases (though I might be wrong regarding the entering the train bit), evan seeing crossroads means he can see "how" to do stuff. As in, you are presented with an scenario and evan can tell you the specific way to accomplish a given goal with the best chance of success. Meanwhile hwa ryun cannot see "how" to do stuff. She sees further into the future so to speak. Maybe even multiple scenarios. But she does not see "how" to accomplish given stuff. In most cases I would think hwa ryun's thing is preferable of course because you can see further into the future and act accordingly but if it works like I suggest then there are situation's where evan's guiding would be preferable because it allows you to deal with more immediate situations on the spot.

 

[shaheer]

Evan can’t see things far away, but he is good at seeing up close choices. For example he knew what Bam should do to beat the Steel Eel, whereas Hwaryun wouldn’t have know that Bam should stand still and be eaten.

I did read what you wrote fam, i just didnt buy it. If Hwya Ryun didnt see things up close how is she helping Androssi to fight White? She is basically reading his moves and telling her what to do according to White. And that bit of help is making Androssi stand her ground against him.
I agree that in Canon Silver Dwarf is a Guide but in the plot so far Evans active use has been to either be sth like a scout or be a person with a wide array of items and a guy who knows fancy light house tricks. As a Guide his achievement is zilch compared to HR.

In most cases I would think hwa ryun's thing is preferable of course because you can see further into the future and act accordingly but if it works like I suggest then there are situation's where evan's guiding would be preferable because it allows you to deal with more immediate situations on the spot.

I hope SIU fleshes out Evan because if he gives him a rank of 200 and then shows him out to be a fodder for Yuris mood tantrum and then going around asking HR on what to do this is just pathetic imho

 

[kkck]

I hope SIU fleshes out Evan because if he gives him a rank of 200 and then shows him out to be a fodder for Yuris mood tantrum and then going around asking HR on what to do this is just pathetic imho

We have seen where evan stands fighting wise quite a few times though. He is most likely well stronger than karaka, to the point where he doesn't even view him as a threat. And yet yuri exceeds him easily in spite of having a lower rank. Ultimately evan seems to be more of a support type. And his guide abilities are optimal for combat, more so than hwa ryun's.

 

[shaheer]

We have seen where evan stands fighting wise quite a few times though. He is most likely well stronger than karaka, to the point where he doesn't even view him as a threat. And yet yuri exceeds him easily in spite of having a lower rank. Ultimately evan seems to be more of a support type. And his guide abilities are optimal for combat, more so than hwa ryun's.

It will be good to see that in action. So far we saw next to nothing and even in this case where zahards army is trying to do them in it was HR who got the news and spreaded it around tried to make plans.
What i am saying is Given his rank we should see something good from him . Expect great things like Enna core being one. But as of yet all of the Guide magic we get that is of worth comes from HR thats very off-putting.
Just scroll down to where Evan is talking with Kurudan in this page. Thats how i expect Evan to be, He is ranked super high his power and hold and usefulness should be incredible, not asking around what to do and then acting on others plans.
I m not hating on him as a character i m just mighty disappointed

 

[Ripcord]

Enna Core is a light bearer skill and as far as we know Evan doesn’t use lighthouses so he won’t be using it.

Still I expect we will see the other abilities of that Frog finger.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 5, 2018 ---

I would also add that SIU doesn’t spend a whole lot of time on the “how” a character did something, much less so than Kishimoto did in Naruto (particularly in Part 2 of ToG), and as such I would expect Evan’s type of guide to be highlighted far less often than Hwaryun, at least until Yuri takes a more prominant role and we were told that wouldn’t be until later on in ToG.

 

[Demonspeed]

Evan was said to be as strong as Yuri IIRC.

As for the difference between the two races, Red Witches seem to see far in the future but only the main points while Silver Dwarves seem to be able see in the heat of the moment.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

There is such a thing in martial arts as predicting the future. Its from Ninjutsu. Basically it works in two manners:

1- you hype your paranoia to the point where It exposes all possible outcomes, and then leash It again, narrowing down these possibilities to the ones most likely. This way you can be ready for the outcomes ahead of what's noticeable, like in a chess game irl.

2- to focus your Senses in every minimum detail the environment gives you, enough to create a Very accurate map in your Head of things, people and even their likely emotions and intentions. Its a more imediate prediction and involves less possible outcomes to be ready for.

I think both are mixed in Red Witches and Silver Dwarves. While Evan works with possibilities and imediate outcomes, Red Witches seem to be the ones to gauge the 'essence' of each character and what's going to happen If they follow "their script".

Emily blurred Hwaryun's sight because she enables Rachel, an Irregular, to influence people to act, and since irregulars are not bound to the Tower, you cannot know in advance what they Will do. Everything done by a Tower bound person is likely predictable since, like someone above mentioned, the Tower is such a Big enough computer to predict How each of known components Will act and hint the current outcome to a Red Witch. However, Irregulars are unpredictable for not being known to the Tower, and RWs fail.

Evan on the other hand did bring Yuri to first Floor on the exact moment Bam and Rachel appeared. Unwilingly and unknowingly, his Guiding skills are still useful because it manages the unknown (possibilities). Despite not believing Bam would make It, Evan still predicted correctly the good version outcome of Steel Eel faceoff. Hwaryun on the other hand didn't even consider Bam could use Shinsoo and cut her eye. She cannot see him at all. Evan sees It, but finds unlikely. Evan could in theory foresee even a fight between Family Heads, which is the reason I think Silver Dwarves are highly regarded by the Status Quo.