High Tier Singles Final - Yamato Yuudai vs Tachibana Kippei

[Hardy]

GUYU is more effective on tezuka because he does all those predictions at a higher level than most other players, not that others dont also do it too.

How do you know that? We've only seen GUYU once, and the explanation we had back then wasn't the one you're giving

 

[-Ken-]

How do you know that? We've only seen GUYU once, and the explanation we had back then wasn't the one you're giving

Because he's cheering for Tachibana, and the only hope Tachibana had at winning this match is that GUYU doesn't work against him?

 

[ashore]

Because he's cheering for Tachibana, and the only hope Tachibana had at winning this match is that GUYU doesn't work against him?

I'm only cheering for tachibana, because I have a low opinion of Yamato. I dont think Yamato should have defeated shiraishi in the tournament last round.
Everyone's opinion on yamato's skill is based on how he used a GUYU on tezuka.

when even yamato in the manga he stated that even while doing his best, tezuka was owning him hard, until he used GUYU. And despite GUYU, tezuka was going to win yamato by using tezuka phantom, so if you are going to determine the skill level of a player based on their opponent being unable to return the ball or win points, then tezuka still beats yamato and yamato is not at tezuka's level since he cant counter phantom.

but not worries, I'm sounding like a broken record. I can accept that my views may be wrong and that my views are not in the majority.

---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

How do you know that? We've only seen GUYU once, and the explanation we had back then wasn't the one you're giving

I dont know for a fact or do I have the manga chapter to show as evidence.

I would have to use common sense that everyone's level of predictability are at different levels. Recall kikumaru and echizen 's have a natural ability to see fast balls or something to that effect. Other players can probably see fast balls as well but not as well as those 2 characters at the time the manga stated that.

I hope we can we agree that all player's visual and cognitive abilities are not the same and
if not at least we can agree each player has different stats.

But based on my logic/opinion of tezuka having a higher predictibility ability, that yamato 's GUYU
affects him more. vs a person (or other players) who has a lower level or ability of predictability.

and yes, I'm also basing my reasoning on the anime, which isn't cannon.

So the conclusion is this: Komoni sensei really messed up

in the Manga based on the majority's view of Yamato, he's an ultra good player that is on par with tezuka, but
in the anime he isn't because it supports that GUYU works due to tezuka's natural predictability skills

do we want to say konomi messed up? or do we want to say he forgot to add details in teh manga,
stretching a player from being really good in one canon and really crappy in another canon.

unless we have puri pair data on GUYU,

its like saying a certain shin pot char is bad azz, but dont worry , in the anime he sucks azz.

 

[Phantron]

Even on the manga Yamato said GUYU is especially effective on Tezuka because he has exceptional abilities. It's clear that its effect would be diminished on normal people. You can't play mind games against an opponent who doesn't think. If anything the wild aura would be a strong counter to GUYU because 'wild' anything would imply he's playing by instinct.

Even if Tezuka Zone just magically does this 'pulls ball to center of court' spin, it doesn't explain the fact that why didn't someone accidentally hit the ball out only to have it saved by Tezuka Zone due to sheer accident. In the Kaidoh versus Tezuka tiebreaker it's clearly not showing how Tezuka Zone occasionally has a drawback of saving balls that would've gone out of bounds. If Tezuka actually had to use Zone the whole time (no reason he'd need to), Kaidoh's reaction should be 'whew got lucky there'. Based on Kaidoh's reaction it's clear Tezuka was only using Zone on the balls that would've gone out, which implies he already knows which ball is going to go out since he has to put on spin on the ball first.

---------- Post added at 12:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------

in the Manga based on the majority's view of Yamato, he's an ultra good player, but
in the anime he isn't because it supports that GUYU works due to tezuka's natural predictability skills

do we want to say konomi messed up? or do we want to say he forgot to add details in teh manga,
stretching a player from being really good in one canon and really crappy in another canon.

unless we have puri pair data on GUYU,

its like saying a certain shin pot char is bad azz, but dont worry , in the anime he sucks azz.

Of course Yamato is a screwed up character. He was supposed to retire after playing Tezuka presumably because he has some career threatening arm injury, and then he was selected to play the G10 amongst the 2nd stringers which means he was also playing 5 games a day for 10 days in the round robin. I got the feeling if he wasn't injuried he's supposed to be a top player, except he's basically permenantly injuried, which is why the game against Tezuka was supposed to be his last game.

 

[Kaoz]

@ashore
Would you mind using less bold and underline tags in your posts. I believe you can make your point clear without them.

Based on Kaidoh's reaction it's clear Tezuka was only using Zone on the balls that would've gone out, which implies he already knows which ball is going to go out since he has to put on spin on the ball first.

Well, this much I can agree with, but wouldn't you say that this is a significantly easier call to make compared to knowing the exact spot the ball would go to?

I got the feeling if he wasn't injuried he's supposed to be a top player, except he's basically permenantly injuried, which is why the game against Tezuka was supposed to be his last game.

I don't think he's injured anymore? From what we've seen, he got a surgery and went through the rehabilitation. Afterwards he started playing differently and probably didn't suffer injury again.

 

[Ninomiya]

Even on the manga Yamato said GUYU is especially effective on Tezuka because he has exceptional abilities. It's clear that its effect would be diminished on normal people.

Nope. The manga never said this. It never said it "especially effective" on Tezuka.
He just said this is working because Tezuka is predicting the next shot. At NO point did it say only Tezuka can do this.
This is your problem here. You won't accept this small point. It was never said it works more on Tezuka.

At no point in the series has it been said Tezuka has natural amazing prediction abilities. Tezuka was always at the top end of the tier but because of pure Technique. Not things like prediction.
So everything you're saying he won't really be valid.

You can't play mind games against an opponent who doesn't think. If anything the wild aura would be a strong counter to GUYU because 'wild' anything would imply he's playing by instinct.

WTF?
Tachibana doesn't think? He spent an entire match avoiding Chitose's blind spot whilst using his Abare Jishi style, and in Mojuu no Aura.
I apologize but nothing suggests GUYU would be less effective.

 

[Hardy]

Nope. The manga never said this. It never said it "especially effective" on Tezuka.

Not only that, the tech was praised by the Hs . IIRC, Irie said something like "to think that scrub like Yamato was hiding such a tech...". Why would he say something like that about a tech that only works against 1 person?

 

[floman]

Not only that, the tech was praised by the Hs . IIRC, Irie said something like "to think that scrub like Yamato was hiding such a tech...". Why would he say something like that about a tech that only works against 1 person?

The question isn't whether it will only work on Tezuka, it is whether it will work on Tachibana.

I don't think that it will. His play is not based on prediction. I think Phantrons right. His style may be predictable (which is why the second door worked) but he doesn't play based on prediction.

 

[Hardy]

K, that's true. GUYU is effective against players that rely on prediction. Tachibana doesn't, at all.

Also, GUYU is weak against lions ( http://www.mangareader.net/343-58158-4/new-prince-of-tennis/chapter-37.html ) so I'm giving this to Tachibana

 

[Phantron]

Just because everyone talks smack about how good their predicative abilities are doesn't mean they're actually any good at it. If they are, you'd see more games like Yanagi's game against the G20, where the guy lobbed a ball and he didn't chase after it because he knows he can't reach it on time. When Atobe played Ryoma, they spent a long time thinking about what's going to happen but clearly only one guy can be right, and in fact there's no particular to reason to believe that Atobe foresaw everything too even though he won the point. For all we know he could just be good enough to react to something on time to salvage a point, but most certainly the guy who lost the point didn't predict correctly.

Now how good is Tezuka at predicting? We have never seen a time where Tezuka Zone accidentally saved a ball going out of bounds. We've never seen Tezuka Zone used when someone hit the ball directly down the middle. Depending on whether Zone is a 'to center' or just a directional spin, it'd either be ineffective or counterproductive against such a shot. At best, Tezuka would've wasted his energy doing Zone if the opponent was going to hit down the middle anyway. But again we've never seen anyone citing this as a weakness in Zone. It's clear that he only uses Zone when it is necessary, and even if that doesn't involve knowing the exact position of the ball, he must have an extremely high confidence on where the ball goes. This is even more so if Zone is a directional spin as opposed to an 'attract to center of court' spin. Tezuka has to put the spin on the ball even before the opponent hits back, so to not waste Zone means he must be able to predict his opponent's return with extremely high confidence BEFORE they even hit the ball.

Compare this to say Shiraishi's prediction on Fuji. He predicts them AFTER Fuji hits the ball, and is reasonable good at doing so based on his observations. But Tezuka is predicting at least one rally ahead of time as his prediction happens before the opponent hits the ball, while Shiraishi's prediction happens after the opponent hits the ball.

For Yamato, he said he was going to play his last game against Tezuka and quit. Unless he suddenly got bored with tennis, I take this to mean that his injury is preventing him from playing at a high level consistently which is why he's quitting the game for good. Of course it turned out he didn't quit anyway but I thought the implication was Yamato played way above his level because that was meant to be the last game of tennis he played.