Voting Round 1 Reinhard van Astrea vs. Miyamoto Musashi

[Lambu]

Well if Day 1 was me convincing you he can be damaged then that's a start. A wise man once said "if it bleeds it can be killed", so don't be so gung-ho with assuming your boy's victory is guaranteed.

As you read, Musashi's Heavenly Demonic Thundering Eye allows her to see through her opponent's defensive actions, and demolish them. This skill is legitimate because in the FGO game she pierces through invincibility with it, damaging her opponents as she wishes as well as the ability reducing her opponent's defences. You said that this skill convinced you she might be able to damage Reinhard, well I say given what it does it's a guarantee she can damage him and by extension, kill him.

A battle is only ever settled when someone loses or they forfeit and I'm not about to do either so settle down Reinhard has these magical blessings for sure, but have we discussed the possibility of Musashi not severing them from him but sealing them? I am referring to her 2nd noble phantasm, Ganryū-jima: I Was Told There Would Be Magic Sword-Busting! This Noble Phantasm is one she uses against any sword-wielding opponent who doesn't just rely on their skill with the blade, with this Noble Phantasm breaking their blade and sealing their skills. This is yet another asset she has that can turn the tide of the battle, and as someone who fights up close, if Reinhard suddenly loses his blade to defend himself then the Heavenly Demonic Thundering Eye not only guarantees Musashi can hurt him but gives her an optimal chance to kill him. I still contest that she can incorporate the Swirl of the Root to damage his connection to Od Lugana and switch off Reinhard's blessings, so a sword attack using the swirl of the root should be the end of Reinhard.

She is a far better fighter than you give her credit for...

Im having trouble believing what Fate fans are saying in this event, cause so far most of what they claimed ended up being false when reading the wikia or an impossible stretch of their abilities BUT I will check the wikia again (for the upteenth time) to see if its true later, will take your claims at face value now.


The reason I said Musashi would be able to damage him is because the technique you talked about ignores physical defenses, and Reinhard was damaged by an opponent that reduces any kind of defence to absolute zero (Regulus).

He is capable of resisting a thing like that tho, thanks to the Blessing of Spirits that makes him instantly heal fatal injuries before they kill him (what Julius has but on steroids, he cannot speak with the spirits like Julius does tho because there are too many and their wills are only centered on protecting him).
Thanks to this he was capable of grabbing Regulus for short periods of time or punch/kick him without vaporizing himself in the act, but he still took damage from doing it... Which made him bleed... which made him stronger...

The second NP you talk about wouldn't work either since his swordsmanship is at the absolute peak without blessings, on pair with Reid, who could do that Musashi's attack that ignores any defence with chopsticks (Reinhard can replicate it with the Dragon Sword).
Yet on top of that he has the "Blessing of the Sword Saint" which maximizes the user's martial prowess to their maximum possible limit (see above), allows them mastery of any weapon as long as it can be wielded (a stick, a whip, a spoon...) and allows them to draw the Dragon Sword from its sheath but only if the sword finds the opponent worthy.

Finally if she's capable of cutting his connection to Od Laguna it will instantly repair itself. Musashi would need to eliminate Od Laguna for the connection to be severed completely, which is the same as destroying the Universe.
On top of that, excuse me if I highly doubt she can do that, since if she could all she would do to defeat any servant is severe connections to the Root and have them disappear, which would make her NP... EX+ maybe?

But hey, Im taking your claims at face value, still she cant do it. I agree she's strong btw, would defeat a lot of nominees imo but Rein is just too much.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Im having trouble believing what Fate fans are saying in this event, cause so far modt of what they claimed ended up being false when reading the wikia or an impossible stretch of their abilities BUT I will check the wikia again (for the upteenth time) to see if its true later, will take your claims at face value now.

I'm offended that you think I'm bullshitting here, I literally no-life the game with Musashi so I know what the skills do even without needing to rely on the wikia @Jammin has my back here that I play a lot of FGO and keep up with it a lot. The stuff about Heavenly Demonic Thundering Eye is in her wikia page near the bottom, under the Berserker version so you can find it

The reason I said Musashi would be able to damage him is because the technique you talked about ignores physical defenses, and Reinhard was damaged by an opponent that reduces any kind of defence to absolute zero (Regulus).

He is capable of resisting a thing like that tho, thanks to the Blessing of Spirits that makes him instantly heal fatal injuries before they kill him (what Julius has but on steroids, he cannot speak with the spirits like Julius does tho because there are too many and their wills are only centered on protecting him).
Thanks to this he was capable of grabbing Regulus for short periods of time or punch/kick him without vaporizing himself in the act, but he still took damage from doing it... Which made him bleed... which made him stronger...

The second NP you talk about wouldn't work either since his swordsmanship is at the absolute peak without blessings, on pair with Reid, who could do that Musashi's attack that ignores any defence with chopsticks (Reinhard can replicate it with the Dragon Sword).
Yet on top of that he has the "Blessing of the Sword Saint" which maximizes the user's martial prowess to their maximum possible limit (see above), allows them mastery of any weapon as long as it can be wielded (a stick, a whip, a spoon...) and allows them to draw the Dragon Sword from its sheath but only if the sword finds the opponent worthy.

Finally if she's capable of cutting his connection to Od Laguna it will instantly repair itself. Musashi would need to eliminate Od Laguna for the connection to be severed completely, which is the same as destroying the Universe.
On top of that, excuse me if I highly doubt she can do that, since if she could all she would do to defeat any servant is severe connections to the Root and have them disappear, which would make her NP... EX+ maybe?

But hey, Im taking your claims at face value, still she cant do it. I agree she's strong btw, would defeat a lot of nominees imo but Rein is just too much.

I see where you're coming from but I don't agree. Yes he's exceptional but Musashi is literally someone who makes a living of fighting the strongest swordsmasters and coming out on top.

Regarding the 2nd NP, yes Reinhard has all of those but they don't say she can't use her ability on him. Maybe you don't believe it'd work but again you don't know Fate like I do so I can see your scepticism. Yes, Reinhard is amazing but let me put it like this: both of Musashi's eye abilities IN-GAME piece Invincibility and allow her to damage and kill her opponents as she desires; the 2nd eye skill (Heavenly Demonic Thundering Eye) has the other effect of her lowering her opponent's defences thus doing more damage to them. Ganryu-jima is an EX rank Noble Phantasm, so from that you know this is a serious technique that utilises a "special saint graph which mercilessly insults, degrades, and crushes swordsmen" that rely on more than their own skill with the blade; in this case his Divine Protections. I contest that this Noble Phantasm which is able to crush an opponent and seal away their abilities is just one way Musashi can neuter Reinhard and get the victory in combination with her other skills.

Will probably sleep soon, but I'll look forward to your thoughts

 

[Jammin]

Yeah, my understanding of what Musashi does form FGO is pretty much in lock step with Sam. I think he may be splitting hairs in that several separate incarnation's abilities are being treated as one to some degree. But since the rules are

"There will be no additional restrictions. A character will have access to all of his/her abilities according to the lore. "

So I guess that's ok.

Let me address a couple things to you, Lambu.

The first is that you have to understand why Fate characters are this way. In Fate, reality warping is commonplace. That's what grails do much of the time. ReZero seems to work on concrete absolute concepts. But in Fate it's characters destroy absolute concepts all the time, as they fight reality warpers. They do things like "inscribe the concept of death onto something that can't die". Quite frequently battles are concept versus concept. This is why Musashi is sort of a pain in the ass for Reinhard. Her base concept as a character is someone who cuts anything. There are limits on it, but that is her basic skill set which grows as her character arc goes along.

Now you're also working a couple points here that just aren't strong in my opinion. Like comparing speed, swordsmanship and such. Those are subjective points at best, since they don't come from the same universe. And more people are probably going to believe in Musashi over Reinhard because, seriously, what non-ReZero fan is going to believe some ikemen guy is the peer of a superpowered Musashi Miyamoto that wanders dimensions fighting god tier stuff? Not me for one.

Your more persuasive argument, in my opinion, is durability. Because, while Musashi can deal with that via cutting protections away most likely, Reinhard isn't just going to stand there and let her do it. And she does not have those god teir durabilty skills. The fact that his primary weapon is a sword is a disadvantage to him but she's going to have to cut him a lot more times than he'd have to cut her to bring him down.

 

[Lambu]

Yeah, my understanding of what Musashi does form FGO is pretty much in lock step with Sam. I think he may be splitting hairs in that several separate incarnation's abilities are being treated as one to some degree. But since the rules are

"There will be no additional restrictions. A character will have access to all of his/her abilities according to the lore. "

So I guess that's ok.

Let me address a couple things to you, Lambu.

The first is that you have to understand why Fate characters are this way. In Fate, reality warping is commonplace. That's what grails do much of the time. ReZero seems to work on concrete absolute concepts. But in Fate it's characters destroy absolute concepts all the time, as they fight reality warpers. They do things like "inscribe the concept of death onto something that can't die". Quite frequently battles are concept versus concept. This is why Musashi is sort of a pain in the ass for Reinhard. Her base concept as a character is someone who cuts anything. There are limits on it, but that is her basic skill set which grows as her character arc goes along.

Now you're also working a couple points here that just aren't strong in my opinion. Like comparing speed, swordsmanship and such. Those are subjective points at best, since they don't come from the same universe. And more people are probably going to believe in Musashi over Reinhard because, seriously, what non-ReZero fan is going to believe some ikemen guy is the peer of a superpowered Musashi Miyamoto that wanders dimensions fighting god tier stuff? Not me for one.

Your more persuasive argument, in my opinion, is durability. Because, while Musashi can deal with that via cutting protections away most likely, Reinhard isn't just going to stand there and let her do it. And she does not have those god teir durabilty skills. The fact that his primary weapon is a sword is a disadvantage to him but she's going to have to cut him a lot more times than he'd have to cut her to bring him down.

I figured as much, I wanted Sam to clarify he was being tricky on purpose first tho.

Using skills from different versions of Musashi that they dont share is not allowed. This is because theres no version of Musashi that holds all those cards, we went from looking at a "Character vs Character" to a "Character vs Concept Character" that doesnt exist.

Very disappointed

 

[Jammin]

I figured as much, I wanted Sam to clarify he was being tricky on purpose first tho.

Using skills from different versions of Musashi that they dont share is not allowed. This is because theres no version of Musashi that holds all those cards, we went from looking at a "Character vs Character" to a "Character vs Concept Character" that doesnt exist.

Very disappointed

It's not that he's using all of them. More like he's switching between which one he's picking. Which I think he is allowed to do. They are all Musashi after all. They're just different spirit origins.

 

[Nie Li]

It's not that he's using all of them. More like he's switching between which one he's picking. Which I think he is allowed to do.

Only a version of the character should be contending, though. Whichever version is the strongest.

 

[Jammin]

Only a version of the character should be contending, though. Whichever version is the strongest.

It's not that simple. There isn't a strongest. They're just different.

 

[Lambu]

It's not that he's using all of them. More like he's switching between which one he's picking. Which I think he is allowed to do. They are all Musashi after all. They're just different spirit origins.

BS, you either pick one or the other, not combine the two. That fusion of the two doesn't exist in Fate Universe.

 

[SirSamuel016]

I figured as much, I wanted Sam to clarify he was being tricky on purpose first tho.

Using skills from different versions of Musashi that they dont share is not allowed. This is because theres no version of Musashi that holds all those cards, we went from looking at a "Character vs Character" to a "Character vs Concept Character" that doesnt exist.

Very disappointed

Why isn't it allowed to make arguments for Miyamoto Musashi using different skills from different forms? I'll remind you of this golden nugget from the very first post in this thread which has the rules:

There will be no additional restrictions. A character will have access to all of his/her abilities according to the lore.

It's still the same Miyamoto Musashi, and as per the tournament rules she has access to all of the abilities belonging to her. This means for this tournament event, I have every right to make arguments utilizing every one of her assets because regardless of some changes to her spirit origin it is still the same Miyamoto Musashi and all of these skills belong to her.

 

[Copy Panda]

hwat is going on here

 

[Sky]

hwat is going on here

What has been lacking from our wars as of lately. Salt.

 

[Copy Panda]

when it comes to this girl, Sam will be your canary in the salt mine

 

[Lambu]

Why isn't it allowed to make arguments for Miyamoto Musashi using different skills from different forms? I'll remind you of this golden nugget from the very first post in this thread which has the rules:



It's still the same Miyamoto Musashi, and as per the tournament rules she has access to all of the abilities belonging to her. This means for this tournament event, I have every right to make arguments utilizing every one of her assets because regardless of some changes to her spirit origin it is still the same Miyamoto Musashi and all of these skills belong to her.

You said it, a character, not a concept character that is a mix of both. Musashi 1 is a character, Musashi 2 is also a character, but Musashi 1+2 is not a character, you just made it yourself.

Its like I put Goku and I say he's inmortal because another version of Goku (Black) is inmortal lmao.

 

[Copy Panda]

 

[SirSamuel016]

You said it, a character, not a concept character that is a mix of both. Musashi 1 is a character, Musashi 2 is also a character, but Musashi 1+2 is not a character, you just made it yourself.

Its like I put Goku and I say he's inmortal because another version of Goku (Black) is inmortal lmao.

You're FACTUALLY wrong on this one, these Musashi are one and the same. Lore-wise, she gains her new abilities after cooking food in and eating food out of a Holy Grail she found So by lore AND the tournament rules, she absolutely should and DOES have access to all of her abilities. If you've decided to focus on this as your means of disputing Musashi beating Reinhard then I'm sorry but you should drop the whinge because it's kinda cringe

Musashi beats Reinhard, admit it...

​

 

[Lambu]

This man, I cant even get annoyed

 

[Copy Panda]

Also

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Mar 26, 2021 ---

oh hey lambs I just now finishing reading episode 7 of umi

positively mindfucked

 

[SirSamuel016]

This man, I cant even get annoyed

Also

Arigathanks! Glad you're enjoying the and the good Musashi vibes~ Because I'm nice, here's some more art

 

[Lambu]

oh hey lambs I just now finishing reading episode 7 of umi

positively mindfucked

The last 3 chapters are pretty much Mindfuck: the manga.

One day I will play the VN, theres no way I miss it.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Mar 26, 2021 ---

Anyway Sam, lets make it so Reinhard goes serious, because she's absolutely amazing and happens to be a threat so big that the Dragon Sword jumped out of its scabbard (... no weird meaning behind that).

So Reinhard raises his sword and with a single unavoidable strike erases her from existence along with the world. From the very same strike he creates a replica of said world without Musashi and all traces of her being there.

Yeah, its a canon ability of Reinhard and yes even Re:Zero fans hate him for that... but hey, Musashi made him do it, congratulations.

 

[Arjuna]

Reinhard is beyond Mushashi's level yeah so I am voting for Reinhard