Semifinal Reinhard van Astrea vs. Vegeta

[GrySun]

Strictly taken, he should be allowed to feel gokus ki even in context, since he is fighting at the same time against akemi in the other thread.

I didn‘t expect to see the arguments get as far as the other semifinal match. Let‘s just make it a 2v2 at this point.

 

[Blakestnight666]

At least provide a source of that nonsense.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2021 ---

Like, I gave you one of Tori saying Super is a continuation of the manga, hence THAT'S the canon.

man first answer my question. Then i will answer yours.

He never said that

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2021 ---

Bro you are literally reading whatever you want to fit your narrative. Absurdly annoying.

Not pride, he can't. He didn't learn it. In any case, your reason remains, he won't get character development for this tournament.

He said maybe. Maybe not. And then the manga confirmed they can't. Done.

Dunno why you guys argue like this, I have no idea how Lambu lasted this long.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2021, Original Post Date: May 1, 2021 ---

I'm aware of this and addressed it. Again, annoying.

Vegeta literally uses it to teleport. He clearly says that he won't steal goku's technique. He never said that he couldn't use it. Stop twisting things according to your convenience.

 

[Jammin]

Oh you ignored the point in which I adressed how Reinhard is inmune to seduction, cute.


As for inmortality again, you are playing semantics. Its not a lie that Reinhard cannot die until he wants to, the only thing thats mortal is his body.


Anyway for Od Laguna here's some direct quotes from the WN, end of Arc 4. Sadly they didnt make it into the anime.

Spoiler

------------
Roswaal: “Make sure you don't misunderstand. This possibility is present because it is her. There is no way to bring back lives that have met a conventional death. The Od Laguna would never permit such convenient magic as resurrection.”

Subaru: “Od Laguna?”

Subaru scrunches his face at the new word.

Roswaal: “Od Laguna is... how to say, a stockpile of mana in the fount of the world... No, supposing that the world itself was a living creature, then it would be its Nexus and the Od of the World. Though we can only imagine as to its exact location, and whether it is sentient or not.”
-----------


Roswaal proceeds to explain the origin of magic and how the Greatest Magicians of old pursued godhood and forms to shape the world. As mana is the life force and main sustaint of anything, manipulating mana through magic allows to play with the rules.

Until they decided to access the root of all mana (Od Laguna), going insane when witnessing its scale. Its not just the physical realm but the spiritual. All souls and memories are born from and return to the nexus and its explored in Arc 6 later with the Hall of Memories.

Also lol at that wikia putting Od Laguna as a "crystal" at the core of the "planet" (Re Zero world is flat) when no one knows its location, everything is a "refraction" of it.


-----------
Roswaal: “Just as humans fear injury or disease, the World rejects those liable to shake its foundations. Is what some first started saying about Od Laguna.
The true common point between those whose minds were broken by witnessing Od Laguna, was that they reached new heights of magic that would have rewritten the practice's history.”
--------------


Basically, those who accessed Od Laguna managed to trascend the limits of the magic allowed by that "God" like Resurrection, Time manipulation, Travelling through universes, etc...
But they are forbidden and corrected by Od Laguna itself. Only Authorities manage to challenge it successfully.

It really isn't that hard to understand when you are familiar with stuff like "The Root" in Fate.


-------------
Roswaal: “One theory states that Od Laguna is the consciousness that rules over everything in the World. And though it warrants scepticism, perhaps Od Laguna could be the one bestowing people with BLESSINGS—is the nonsense that people have come up with.”
--------------

^Theory confirmed by the Author himself.

And more gets explored in Arc 6 and the Pleiades Watchtower.

Ok, couple things here. That was actually pretty informative, and I appreciate that. But there are couple things I'm going to have to ask you to clarify. And you seem quite tired of doing that. Oh well.

First. When you cite a source you need to reference where it's from. If it's a web novel just mark down the chapter. If it's a LN a volume and page number. The point being so that I, or anybody else, can look it up.

Second. The snippets of dialogue your quoting there don't actually support what your saying. I don't see anything in there that supports your statements about the nature of Od Laguna and a scope of his dragon sword attack.

Quote 1: Soul of world. Got it.
Quote 2: People go insane if they see it but it takes their magic to another level beyond what Od Laguna is cool with. Got it.
Quote 3: Od Laguna is the consciousness that rules over everything in the ReZero world. Got it.

None of this points to destroying it being the same as destroying the universe. Or even that it's exists independently of one planet? The text of the Roswaal quote you said the author confirmed specifically says "world". I don't know how big the ReZero universe is but I'm not sure how to even write a fraction small enough to express what one world would be in the scope of a universe. Just one galaxy can have like 100 billion stars in it.

Is there something that says it extends to all of reality somewhere? I understand that there is some dimensional travel going on or something from somebody since Subaru was Isekai'd and jumps timelines or travels through time. Even if destroying Od Laguna destroys all version of that world it doesn't necessarily destroy the universe. Small ripple in a big pond.



Sidenote but this made me laugh...

Roswaal: “Make sure you don't misunderstand. This possibility is present because it is her. There is no way to bring back lives that have met a conventional death. The Od Laguna would never permit such convenient magic as resurrection.”

That is an impressively ironic statement after discussing Reinhard. Poor Roswaal is in for a shock someday.

 

[Blakestnight666]

Ok, couple things here. That was actually pretty informative, and I appreciate that. But there are couple things I'm going to have to ask you to clarify. And you seem quite tired of doing that. Oh well.

First. When you cite a source you need to reference where it's from. If it's a web novel just mark down the chapter. If it's a LN a volume and page number. The point being so that I, or anybody else, can look it up.

Second. The snippets of dialogue your quoting there don't actually support what your saying. I don't see anything in there that supports your statements about the nature of Od Laguna and a scope of his dragon sword attack.

Quote 1: Soul of world. Got it.
Qoute 2: People go insane if they see it but take there magic to another level beyond what Od Laguna is cool with. Got it.
Quote 3: Od Laguna is the consciousness that rules over everything in the ReZero world. Got it.

None of this points to destroying it being the same as destroying the universe. Or even that it's exists independently of one planet? The text of the Roswaal quote you said the author confirmed specifically says "world". I don't know how big the ReZero universe is but I'm not sure how to even write a fraction small enough to express what one world would be in the scope of a universe. Just one galaxy can have like 100 billion stars in it.

Is there something that says it extends to all of reality somewhere? I understand that there is some dimensional travel going on or something from somebody since Subaru was Isekai'd and jumps timelines or travels through time. Even if destroying Od Laguna destroys all version of that world it doesn't necessarily destroy the universe. Small ripple in a big pond.



Sidenote but this made me laugh...

Roswaal: “Make sure you don't misunderstand. This possibility is present because it is her. There is no way to bring back lives that have met a conventional death. The Od Laguna would never permit such convenient magic as resurrection.”

That is an impressively ironic statement after discussing Reinhard. Poor Roswaal is in for a shock someday.

Actually I did some research and found out that its not a planet but a floating continent.

Here is the map of re zero world;

 

[Static]

Actually I did some research and found out that its not a planet but a floating continent.

Here is the map of re zero world;

That map is completely fanmade. Although it is true that the Re Zero world is a flat supercontinent afaik.

 

[Blakestnight666]

That map is completely fanmade. Although it is true that the Re Zero world is a flat supercontinent afaik.

Even though it's fanmade. It's made with all the information from the sources. The author himself has confirmed that re zero world has no oceans, seas or islands. It's a floating super continent in space

 

[Jammin]

Actually I did some research and found out that its not a planet but a floating continent.

Here is the map of re zero world;

The LN text Lambu quoted in earlier did describe the destruction of a world as I recall. That is interesting to look at though. I love maps of fictional worlds. I'm one of those weirdos.

 

[Static]

Even though it's fanmade. It's made with all the information from the sources. The author himself has confirmed that re zero world has no oceans, seas or islands. It's a floating super continent in space

It doesn't have seas or oceans yes, but it does have islands. You can even see the gladiator islands at the bottom of the map and also floating islands on the Great Waterfall. :P

On the topic of Od Laguna, I do disagree with the Lambu's claim that it's the source of the whole universe as nothing like that has ever been said anywhere but saying destroying the Re Zero 'planet' would deprive Reinhard of his blessings is false. The Od Laguna is not a physical object or creature and doesn't have a material form.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2021, Original Post Date: May 1, 2021 ---

The LN text Lambu quoted in earlier did describe the destruction of a world as I recall. That is interesting to look at though. I maps of fictional worlds. I'm one of those weirdos.

Me too tbh. I love looking at fictional world maps, don't know why but it stimulates my imagination.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Just a little hint, since i remembered that some semantics were brought up with the term "core. Even a flatplanet has a "core".

 

[Static]

Just a little hint, since i remembered that some semantics were brought up with the term "core. Even a flatplanet has a "core".

Well, yes, but again, Od Laguna is not a physical core. It's an immaterial entity.

That said, despite being one of the few Re Zero novel readers on this forum, I really don't know who to vote for lol.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2021, Original Post Date: May 1, 2021 ---

By the way, a bit off topic here but I wouldn't really advise using the author's Questions and Answers as arguments against or for Reinhard unless the answer is actually very explicit. Tappei has a habit of trolling or straight up lying in the Q/As lol. A lot of the times they're really vague answers as well. Best to use only the source material.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Well, yes, but again, Od Laguna is not a physical core. It's an immaterial entity.

That said, despite being one of the few Re Zero novel readers on this forum, I really don't know who to vote for lol.

That may be, since i didnt read it. Just for the one point with the core.

Why dont you know who to vote for? There must be one thing why you dont say to yourself "reinhard got this ".

 

[Jammin]

Anyway I should probably explain the thought process behind why I'm so focused on the Dragon Sword and the scope of it's destructive capabilities.

Vegeta is tough. I don't read DBZS. But I did watch DBZ back in the day. So my impression of Vegeta, and all non-mob character Saiyans really. Is that they are practically "can tank a supernova" level of toughness. And evading something planet destruction scale is pretty doable for them.

If the Dragon Sword really can snuff out all of reality. That can probably get the job done.

Sevens earlier brought up the few anime scenes where Reinhard has fought and how that compares against the scenes were Vegeta has fought. Now I don't like comparing speed or strength or any of that across series because each fictional universe has it's own rules. I said this before and I meant it. But the scale there is... very different to my eye.

---------------------

I guess the question I'm asking myself is "where is the cutoff".

Because Shaltear is fast and strong in Overlord. But when she came up against Jin Mori. I recognized that the scale of what he can do is different than what she can do. She could only really have a chance through cheap tactics because I've seen what both of them can do. Granted the hype level for Reinhard is infinitely higher but I think there is a similar level of difference between Vegeta and Reinhard in terms of things we've seen them do.

He's got his evasion hax. But that only triggers if he can dodge. Is Vegeta that much faster than him? He might be.

Putting aside the resurrection debate. He can't actually fly in space. What does he do if Vegeta grabs him and throws into void of space. He might still be alive. But he will have lost the fight, a human comet, that would die of old age eventually. Killing is not a condition for victory that I'm aware of anyway.

 

[Static]

That may be, since i didnt read it. Just for the one point with the core.

Why dont you know who to vote for? There must be one thing why you dont say to yourself "reinhard got this ".

Because IMO it all depends on if Vegeta is capable of destroying Od Laguna or not in order to defeat Reinhard. There's simply not enough information on the Od Laguna, such as what exactly is it, how does it function, what are it's capabilities etc it is a mystery even now. Although one thing that we do know about it in arc 6 is that at the very least it transcends the space-time of the Re Zero world since Subaru resets the world every time he dies or creates alternate timelines yet despite that the Od Laguna has recorded every single death of his, which shows that it isn't affected by Subaru literally reversing time or creating new timelines, within the Hall of Memories (the Hall of Memories is an isolated space within the "cradle" of Od Laguna where the lives and deaths of every living person is recorded from their birth to death. And also where souls are refreshed and reincarnated.)

 

[Arjuna]

He might still be alive. But he will have lost the fight, a human comet, that would die of old age eventually. Killing is not a condition for victory that I'm aware of anyway.

At some point of time Reinhard eventually stops thinking.

 

[Static]

Anyway I should probably explain the thought process behind why I'm so focused on the Dragon Sword and the scope of it's destructive capabilities.

Vegeta is tough. I don't read DBZS. But I did watch DBZ back in the day. So my impression of Vegeta, and all non-mob character Saiyans really. Is that they are practically "can tank supernova" level of toughness. And evading something planet destruction scale is pretty doable for them.

If the Dragon Sword really can snuff out all of reality. That can probably get the job done.

Sevens earlier brought up the few anime scenes where Reinhard has fought and how that compares against the scenes were Vegeta has fought. Now I don't like comparing speed or strength or any of that across series because each fictional universe has it's own rules. I said this before and I meant it. But the scale there is... very different to my eye.

---------------------

I guess the question I'm asking myself is "where is the cutoff".

Because Shaltear is fast and strong in Overlord. But when she came up against Jin Mori. I recognized that the scale of what he can do is different than what she can do. She could only really have a chance through cheap tactics. Granted the hype level for Reinhard is infinitely higher but I think there is a similar level of difference between Vegeta and Reinhard in terms of things we've seen them do.

He's got his evasion hax. But that only triggers if he can dodge. Is Vegeta that much faster than him? He might be.

Putting aside the resurrection debate. He can't actually fly in space. What does he do if Vegeta grabs him and throws into void of space. He might still be alive. But he will have lost the fight, a human comet, that would die of old age eventually. Killing is not a condition for victory that I'm aware of anyway.

Even I don't think that the Dragon Sword can erase the whole universe but it is still undeniably a weapon that can 'cut' through concepts (as nonsensical as that sounds lol) although obviously there has to be a limit.

 

[Arjuna]

Even I don't think that the Dragon Sword can erase the whole universe but it is still undeniably a weapon that can 'cut' through concepts (as nonsensical as that sounds lol) although obviously there has to be a limit.

Cutting through concepts or rather conceptual erasure is present in many medium though.Anime,Visual novels etc.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Lets try another approach. Could the Od Laguna be described as a being? Or just a powersource?

 

[Arjuna]

Lets try another approach. Could the Od Laguna be described as a being? Or just a powersource?

As far as i know it is a crystal.

 

[Static]

Lets try another approach. Could the Od Laguna be described as a being? Or just a powersource?

Again, we don't know what it exactly is, whether it's even a living being or not. Even the most knowledgeable of characters in universe such as Echidna, Roswaal etc don't know. It's been deliberately kept as a mystery. Which is why it's hard for me to gauge whether Vegeta can truly destroy it or not. If he can, he beats Reinhard. If he can't, he doesn't.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2021, Original Post Date: May 1, 2021 ---

As far as i know it is a crystal.

It is not a crystal. No where is anything like that ever said lol.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2021 ---

Cutting through concepts or rather conceptual erasure is present in many medium though.Anime,Visual novels etc.

Well yes lol but we're discussing Reinhard vs Vegeta here and Reinhard can do that with the Dragon Sword whereas Vegeta can't afaik (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Arjuna]

Again, we don't know what it exactly is, whether it's even a living being or not. Even the most knowledgeable of characters in universe such as Echidna, Roswaal etc don't know. It's been deliberately kept as a mystery. Which is why it's hard for me to gauge whether Vegeta can truly destroy it or not. If he can, he beats Reinhard. If he can't, he doesn't.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2021, Original Post Date: May 1, 2021 ---

It is not a crystal. No where is anything like that ever said lol.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2021 ---

Well yes lol but we're discussing Reinhard vs Vegeta here and Reinhard can do that with the Dragon Sword whereas Vegeta can't afaik (correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't follow Re Zero so whatever i found about Od Laguna is from Here