[Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

[-Ken-]

Actually, I didn't give anyone the "evolution bonus" i think it's crap (anyone can evolve into anything, It's just Konomi's decition).

Why would I read it again? If Ryoma is gonna win every single match JUST BECAUSE HE'S FREAKING ECHIZEN, then this tournament is useless and I'm wasting my time answering this.

I already see some other team getting a free match win with this logic, so I figure Echizen deserve some, too. You know, to be fair.

 

[Phantron]

Copied moves are still subject to your original strength. It's obvious Kintaro has way higher physical strength (his max output in national semi final is above Hado 108) so if Ryoma copied a power-based move it'd be less effective. How less effective? Nobody knows the answer to that but we can see that whenever Ryoma copied Big Bang it doesn't bust the racket of whoever he's playing against. It's probably a combination of both his opponent tend to be pretty strong and that he has much lower strength. For the most part it looksl ike his opponents (Atobe and Yukimura) didn't even need anything beyond a normal hit to return it. One can argue their tech might be so high it's built into a normal rally but I got the feeling it's saying they can simply return it with sheer strength due to the fact that Ryoma has a lowish strength rating.

I don't see BJK busting Ryoma's racket but it'll at least put him in a disadvantageous situation. It's common to see someone return something but end up having to lob it and then the other guy smash it. Of course Ryoma has own share of moves to use too, but none of those seem to be anything that'd bother a 10 baller (Samurai Drive would be totally useless against a 10 baller). Just BJK does not seem sufficient looking at the move matchup but since Oni's been revealed to have power above the BJK while Ryoma has not yet been shown with any move that'd be considered high tier in the 10-baller level, Oni has the advantage here.

I do not think it's fair to say "well if it happened in the manga then Ryoma always wins because he's the main character" because then the discussion is entirely meaningless. Of course Ryoma won't lose in the manga but that's just because of the story. It's actually pretty ironic since to fully realize TnK you got to be able to accept that fact that you can get spanked since the 'have fun' criteria comes ahead of winning, so in theory the fact that Ryoma never loses should prevent him from ever learning TnK since he certainly does everything to avoid losing, which is missing the point that 'have fun' is the most important part in realizing TnK.

 

[ashore]

well unless ryoma get to use muga, he stand no chance.

Oni is near the level of tokugawa and the #2 of Genius 10.

And I dont think ryoma can even play at the same level as tokugawa or oni , again unless he has muga.

 

[Phantron]

well unless ryoma get to use muga, he stand no chance.

Oni is near the level of tokugawa and the #2 of Genius 10.

And I dont think ryoma can even play at the same level as tokugawa or oni , again unless he has muga.

I thought he just can't use TnK?

Regular Muga is useless because unless Ryoma went and watched some games from G1-4 whatever move he use is just going to fail by the virtue of being an inferior move against the G5. Muga is subject to your original strength so even if he copied Duke Homerun there's no way he can blow Oni away. Muga might enhance your stats in some way but it doesn't turn a guy who is never known for his strength into Duke. I guess Shuuji or Ryoga might have some super awesome moves that's not dependent on strength but that's purely speculation at this point. Of course if you do that just go watch a game of pro playing live in the world of POT and then you should be able to spank everyone below the pro level.

Door #1 can be defeated by normal rallies (there's nothing meaningful to double on a regular hit). Can he do a double return on BJK? Maybe, maybe not, but Oni has BJK+ level power so he should be able to return a double BJK. From the Tezuka versus Kabaji game we can see that the doubling effect doesn't go on forever (otherwise whenever either of them misses a rally the ball will have 2^(number of rallies) power and that should easily be able to kill everyone), and that Tezuka was losing due to Kabaji having superior endurance/strength. That implies as long as the enemy can return the double powered shot, the physically weaker player eventually takes damage from the stronger player's power shots. It's pretty obvious Oni's strength is high enough to cause damage to Ryoma. Maybe not just outright bust his racket since Ryoma has improved, but it'd play out like Tezuka versus Kabaji which would be:

Oni uses BJK
Ryoma double return
Oni hits the double BJK back
Ryoma can only return this normally at this point, and returning this shot would cause damage as double BJK level is way above his strength (this is based on the fact that Kabaji versus Tezuka stopped at 4X power, rather than 2^(number of rallies) power)

Door #2 is kind of useless against superior opponents because you'd just see a lot of different ways you're about to get owned.

 

[Fayte]

Echizen lost to Kazuya, who is either equal or worse than Oni. Oni wins.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Echizen lost to Kazuya, who is either equal or worse than Oni. Oni wins.

Fayte, you do have to remember that Echizen didn't even have 5 at Once at the time, let alone the 10 at Once he possesses now, so that result can just be thrown out of the window...

I'm inclined to agree with Kaoz that Echizen no longer uses Muga and he may not even possess Hyakuren or Saiki anymore.

The way I see the match is that, going by Mifune's speech, Echizen can return BJK as he has 10 at Once, but Echizen's lack of any useful techniques at this stage ultimately means that Oni will outlast him and if Oni pulls out a new tech, such as Black Tomahawk, he will eventually overwhelm Echizen at this point in the game.

Oni wins 6-3.

 

[Phantron]

Ryoma is a relatively new face to the 10-ball club so there's no reason to assume he has better base stats than a long established member of the 10-ball club, Oni.

Now in POT special moves trump pretty much everything else if your special move is good enough, but we know Ryoma's existing moves are pretty much all garbage tier (he's always borrowing other people's moves). Samurai Drive is vastly inferior to even 5-ball let alone 10-ball.

I'm inclined to say he still has all the Muga and doors minus TnK which is more like a plot device power. But regular Muga is useless because Muga cannot copy power (he's not going to turn into Duke just because he uses Duke Homerun), and nobody ranked above Oni has ever shown a non power move. Any existing moves he can use with Muga will obviously just be totally useless against Oni.

I went back and checked the Tezuka vs Kabaji game, it seems to imply you can only apply the double effect once, because the rallies always look like:

Kabaji hits something at 1X Kabaji power
Tezuka returns it at 2X Kabaji power
Kabaji returns it at 4X Kabaji power

After that, we see no further detail, but we know Tezuka started dropping games and we see various people saying this is going to be bad for Tezuka if they continue like this. So it's clear you can't just keep on apply more doubling effects on the ball (otherwise there's no reason why Tezuka would drop any games in this state). Now Ryoma has improved but his inability to return power moves is fairly well-chronicled (in terms of per move basis, Big Bang scored more points off Ryoma than any other move), so you'd assume Black Jack Knife ought to put him in a difficult position if he attempted to return it normally. So if Oni can return 2X his own power then he has no chance of losing, because Ryoma will not be able to put the doubling effect on the 2X BJK. In fact given the difference in strength between the two, you'd think Oni can just hit like 60% power BJK, which Ryoma still needs to return with a doubler, and then he can just hit it back at 1.2X power and Ryoma will have to drop that point as he used up as free return and he clearly lacks the power to return it outright.

The revised info showing Oni can go above BJK power level really helps him a lot. Without it, we don't really know if Oni can return >100% BJK level power since that could be his limit. Note the numbers are actually quite tight, because Oni consistently said '60% is enough for middle schoolers', which puts the maximum doubling power to 120% of whatever move Oni uses (presumably he always opens with BJK), and since he can go above BJK level, this is something he should be able to manage.

My guess is eventually it'll be revealed that Ryoma's basic moves magically works on the top tier characters again after he can hit 10-ball, but until this information is available, Ryoma just can't win due to his basic moves are far too inferior to be of use.

 

[Kaoz]

Muga is definitely fair game. I don't think it will do him any good, but edited it in.

 

[LetalHawk]

I think Hyakuren's moveable aura plus double return would be a problem for Oni. Echizen could handle Oni's next level of BJK after some games, I just don't see Ryoma losing this match. He is the kind of guy who constantly evolves in every match, against the stronger opponents and in critical situations. He doesn't stand a chance at the start of Shin, but right now he can hold his ground and probably defeat Oni, don't forget about POT, Ryoma won't give up and evolve.

Echizen will win this no matter what, 6-4 or 7-5, even if Oni becomes serious, Echizen with Hyakuren, Saiki, plus his improvements we have yet to see from Mountain training wins.

 

[Ninomiya]

Is this an official match we're talking? If so, Ryoma. Hands down.
If its an unofficial one, but they are going all-out like Ryoma VS Tokugawa, then Oni.


If you understand PoT, you will understand why I have said two results.

 

[Kaoz]

We don't have a plot, so neither.

 

[LetalHawk]

We don't have a plot, so neither.

Echizen won't lose again. Hyakuren and Saiki, nothing prevents him from activating them. Also, I think he learned some new technique from mountain training, and Echizen is the only one who constantly evolves dramatically in matches, so Echizen will win in the end.

 

[Ninomiya]

We don't have a plot, so neither.

So it's a head-to-head with improvement being factored in?

Ryoma it is then.

 

[TheShiraishi]

As I said earlier, I think the moveable Hyakuren aura that we saw against Yukimura will be effective against Oni. No other Muga door will work other than that one.

Edit: The Saigaku plot power has to be factored in as well

 

[Phantron]

The moveable Hyakuren aura is dangerous close to TnK. Inui believes TnK is basically just a more powerful version of the moveable aura + tech immunity and his guess is as good as anyone else's, and it certainly looks reasonable. As Yukimura pointed out, the weakness of the Hyakuren aura is that is that you HAVE to put all your aura on a single location (usually hand) which makes you slower, so only Tezuka can use it effectively because he can use Tezuka Zone to cover for lack of speed. Once you can move the aura then it's pretty much a flawless technique. Given Tezuka has never been able to move the aura and he mastered it far before anyone else did, I'm inclined to say the only reason Ryoma was able to move it is because he's about to get TnK. Note that Yukimura cannot handle the moveable aura without his yips technique. It's pretty clear that predictions made while the moveable aura is supposed to be work if not for the fact Ryoma suddenly lost his sense of touch.

At any rate the moveable aura is really just another stat upgrade in terms of functionality (faster speed, ambidexterity, etc) and 10-ball is another basic stat upgrade (pretty clear the more balls you can hit at once the higher your base stat is) so I think you're supposed to just take the highest level of stat upgrade and use that (which has to be 10-ball) instead of taking all the stat upgrade you may have had in the past, especially when it's MS versus HS because HS characters are assumed to have way higher base stats. On that token, the mountain training is clearly less than 10-ball (plenty of people completed it without being able to do 10-ball), so anyone who can already hit 10-ball gets no additional bonus points on stat.

 

[ashore]

@airgrimes
whether this is an official match or not, it shouldn't affect ryoma's win , because this tournament is out of the storyline. it uses data from the story line, but ultimately by popular vote someone wins. people have already decided and cast their vote, and defend their position in discussion. some discussion may change a few votes or 2 , but over all the max voters is like around 15 +/- 3 voters.

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------

@phantron
As far as judging the strength of Muga No kyouchi. Ryoma was able to use rai. is the strength, speed, or intensity the same as sanadas?
I bet phantron would say no. since he is using perhaps real life logic and physics to support his claim. if what phantron says is true, evidenced by manga sources or PP (puri pair data books) then i'll conceede.

how was ryoma able to use rai? because sanada showed it to him. how many times does it take for echizen to see a move to copy it ? unknown. I assume only once. since he saw kintaro's mountain storm only once. again the intensity, strength, and speed of the executed special move is in question.

so ryoma has already seen BJK once. it doesn't mean he has to return it, although theoretically he can use other chars special moves to return it or even use BJK to cancel it out.

i believe since ryoma has a stronger control of muga no kyochii, he should be able to use Hyaryuken and Saiki.. the reason is because ryoma has evolved so he wont get exhausted by muga's effects, and has evolved mugato use hyakuren (refer to pot1 finals match of echizen vs yuki) , and distribute his aura.

this is the progression and evolution of echizen's ability to use and control muga, so it should be apart of his skill set.

if this is an unofficial match, i imagine it would be the same vs tokugawa, that ryoma wont use these muga tricks on any of the G10.

---------- Post added at 11:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

EDIT: if you compare yukimura's stats vs oni's.

i think most would agree that Oni's maybe higher or close than yukimura's.
Also one can argue.. that oni can only return all shots of special techniques he seen once before or used on him once before? its unproven but just a theory. If oni cant return all moves he see's then he'll suffer a major disadvantage.
pepole keep talking about BJK, what about RAI? can oni return rai?

echizen's muga history shows:
vs atobe , regular muga is usless ( due to atobe's skill or insight? not sure)
vs yukimura, regular muga is useless ( yuki's skill too good, or that's his skill to return all special moves)
vs sanda regionals, sealed sanada's special moves and added pressure
vs oni? either useless or puts pressure on him. ( based on public opinion)

muga doens't mean auto win though, it will probably be tough.
teh question is vs ONI is muga useless?

the win will have to come down to not special moves but overall base tennis skills. if muga just seals an opponent's special technique since it can be used against them. I assume that the G10 have special chakra powers that makes their moves uncopyable since their techniques come with extra special sources , perhaps chakra. although momo copied BJK so that nullifies that theory.

 

[Phantron]

Whenever Ryoma copied Big Bang it never has the intended effect (blow racket away).

Although part of it is because the ones he used Big Bang on are all top tier players (Atobe/Yukimura), I think it's at least implied that his own lack of strength is part of it. Ryoma's lack of physical strength is well chronicled in POT.

We know Muga can copy tech and speed, so copying Rai's speed and tech is fine. It shouldn't have the same power as Sanada using Rai, though in this case I'm sure even with Sanada's strength you wouldn't be able to bust Oni's racket.

I think Muga can't copy power because power in some sense is the bane of tech. In the game against Gin, Kawamura was said to be the only person who can match up against Gin, despite Tezuka was available for S2. While we don't expect Tezuka to actually lose to Gin, it can be interpreted that for all Tezuka's crazy tech, he can't really risk screwing up on one rally and accidentally get hit by a Hado X. Kawamura also returned the ordinary Hado ball in the game against Fudomine for Fuji, which again suggest that another top tier tech character has problem if forced to return a pure power shot. Even though power and tech are subsituteable in POT, I think power has a huge advantage over tech in the sense that if the power guys screws up he loses a point, while the tech guy is likely to have broken body parts and/or coughing blood if he screwed up. The power guy can screw up at least 24 times against the tech guy, while the tech guy can usually only screw up once.

So if Muga can copy power, and power has a tendency to trump tech, you'd end up just copying Duke Homerun or Hado 108 or whatever the most powerful pure power move you've seen so far, and yet Muga is obviously meant to be a 'tech' based move. The whole point of Muga is that you can use a ton of different moves to confuse the opponent. If Ryoma just copies Rai over and over (which would make a lot of sense), then why not just have Sanada play Oni instead?

As an aside I assume BJK would be a 'difficult to return' move versus 10-ball Ryoma, like those shots you see people end up lobbing the ball over. I don't see him returning it like a normal rally because his lack of strength is well-known. He either has to use a tech to return it comfortably, or risk setting up a bad shot to return it normally.

 

[ashore]

I get your points and respect your reasoning and decisions. As far as blow one's racket away, i think that doesn't apply to all situations. I mean if tanishi or Kite did a big bang on Duke, i dont the racket will " AUTO" be blown away. it just blown away on comparative weak strength ed people like echizen.
I mean didn't kite use big bang on tezuka in quarter finals nationals? it didn't blow racket away. I'm just saying you are using the BIgbang's supposedly blown racket away to reason the Muga's inabiliity to copy strength , which blowing the racket away is not a good example to prove your point imo

 

[Phantron]

I get your points and respect your reasoning and decisions. As far as blow one's racket away, i think that doesn't apply to all situations. I mean if tanishi or Kite did a big bang on Duke, i dont the racket will " AUTO" be blown away. it just blown away on comparative weak strength ed people like echizen.
I mean didn't kite use big bang on tezuka in quarter finals nationals? it didn't blow racket away. I'm just saying you are using the BIgbang's supposedly blown racket away to reason the Muga's inabiliity to copy strength , which blowing the racket away is not a good example to prove your point imo

Tezuka returned the Big Bang with a tech (Hyakuren) which seems to imply if he didn't use a tech, then he'd have got his racket blown away. Or he could have just done it to be cool, but Tezuka never strikes me as someone who does something just for the sake of being cool. His moves all seem to be based on necessity as he's pretty much the most serious guy on the court.

If Tanishi tried to use Big Bang on Duke I'm sure it'd just have no effect because Duke is so far the physically strongest guy in the series, just like Kawamura's Hado ball normally blows other people's racket away but has no effect on Gin, who starts out with higher strength than Kawamura. Racket busting effects, the way I see it, is a comparison of the user's strength + tech strength versus defender's strength + tech strength.

There's two things here: tech strength and user strength. Muga can copy tech strength. For example we can say Black Jack Knife is unconditionally a better move than Jack Knife, so copying Black Jack Knife gets you better speed/power/whatever than just copying Jack Knife. That's perfectly fine.

But copying Black Jack Knife doesn't get you Oni's strength. Just like Oni's BJK must be more powerful than Momoshiro's BJK, if Ryoma copied BJK it'd be even weaker than Momoshiro's BJK because his base strength is lower. Otherwise, you should just go to talk to Duke and ask him to do some moves, and boom, you get Duke's strength! Copying Duke Homerun would instantly make you top 5 amongst all characters NPOT if you can copy the user's power.

Muga normally copies all-or-nothing moves. For example the ZSS does exactly one thing. There's no 'stronger' or 'weaker' version of ZSS. If you can do ZSS the ball just stops rolling when it hits the ground. Even if Nanjirou did ZSS, it's not going to have any more effect than merely dropping and stopping because there's nothing to add to the tech.

Right now we have a rather unique problem in that there are NO tech moves that can overcome a 10-baller tier character. While Ryoga and Shuuji almost certainly possess such moves, they've yet to show anything so there's nothing to be copied. The only moves that might even have an effect on a 10-baller tier at the moment would be:

1. Zero serve (might be copyable, but its side effect is well-known).
2. Phantom (doubtful it'll work, but Phantom is an extension of Tezuka Zone which specifically cannot be copied)
3. Atobe Kingdom (this appears to only be possible due to Atobe's superhuman eyesight. World of Ice has not been copied either)

So copying tech moves is useless until Shuuji and Ryoga shows their moves (they strike me as the tech-type player), and I assume you cannot copy the user's power. That'd leave Ryoma with no useful moves against Oni.

 

[ashore]

whats our opinion on rai or super mountain ultra mega storm?

how did you arrive to this: Right now we have a rather unique problem in that there are NO tech moves that can overcome a 10-baller tier character.

is it because they are highly skilled and able to return all tech moves ( assumed?)