Voting Round 2 Urek Mazino vs. Son Goku

[Valhalla]

You mean this one

 

[Demonspeed]

You mean this one

If Goku had dodged this, maybe the world would have ended .

 

[Blakestnight666]

If Goku had dodged this, maybe the world would have ended .

Oh my base goku who had suppressed his power to the limits so that he doesn't kill those thugs somehow got a little bump on skin is suddenly having low durability lol. try something else man

 

[Jammin]

Going with Urek here.

I see Goku as the like the personification of raw power. Which is great and super strong but with Urek I just don't think that enough. He has that kind of power in addition to hax abilities the upper limits of we really don't have much of an idea about. This does make him somewhat vague but given what shinsoo does in ToG and how much mastery of it Urek has. Seems to me like he's be able to take care of Goku that way.

Espeically since Goku.. well. How to say this diplomatically? Has a potato where his brain should be.

 

[Blakestnight666]

Going with Urek here.

I see Goku as the like the personification of raw power. Which is great and super strong but with Urek I just don't think that enough. He has that kind of power in addition to hax abilities the upper limits of we really don't have much of an idea about. This does make him somewhat vague but given what shinsoo does in ToG and how much mastery of it Urek has. Seems to me like he's be able to take care of Goku that way.

Espeically since Goku.. well. How to say this diplomatically? Has a potato where his brain should be.

He is martial arts expert. His personality is only goofball when he isn't fighting. And as i said urek has no answer to his speed,strength or durability . Goku can literally one shot the verse

 

[Arjuna]

He is martial arts expert. His personality is only goofball when he isn't fighting. And as i said urek has no answer to his speed,strength or durability . Goku can literally one shot the verse

There is a character named Phantaminum you know in Tower of God,he is basically like an "Author" as stated by SIU,there is no way Goku is soloing the verse.

 

[Blakestnight666]

There is a character named Phantaminum you know in Tower of God,he is basically like an "Author" as stated by SIU,there is no way Goku is soloing the verse.

Tower of God's tower is a size of a large planet due to having continent sized dimensions in it. Phateminium can destroy the tower through reality warping so he is large planet level whereas goku can destroy entire galaxies to universe. The power gap is too huge

 

[Arjuna]

Tower of God's tower is a size of a large planet due to having continent sized dimensions in it. Phateminium can destroy the tower through reality warping so he is large planet level whereas goku can destroy entire galaxies to universe. The power gap is too huge

I am not talking about size or power level, Phantaminum is an "Author" something similar to "The Writer" in DC or Featherine in Umineko or Law of Identity in Demon King Daimao.

In their stories their powers are absolute,only higher authors can override it.Even if Goku is stronger in their stories the author can make him die just by writing the story like this.

 

[Demonspeed]

Oh my base goku who had suppressed his power to the limits so that he doesn't kill those thugs somehow got a little bump on skin is suddenly having low durability lol. try something else man

Who had suppressed what? They shot at him, he blocked the bullet and this is what happened. Where did that "Suppressed" his powers come from?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2021 ---

Tower of God's tower is a size of a large planet due to having continent sized dimensions in it. Phateminium can destroy the tower through reality warping so he is large planet level whereas goku can destroy entire galaxies to universe. The power gap is too huge

The Tower itself is bigger than Earth. SIU said he can erase the world of Tower of God, he never said only the planet or stuff like that.

Also, Goku getting hurt by these bullets happens in both the anime and the manga. So that's definitely in Toriyama's script.

Spoiler

 

[Blakestnight666]

Who had suppressed what? They shot at him, he blocked the bullet and this is what happened. Where did that "Suppressed" his powers come from?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2021 ---

The Tower itself is bigger than Earth. SIU said he can erase the world of Tower of God, he never said only the planet or stuff like that.

Also, Goku getting hurt by these bullets happens in both the anime and the manga. So that's definitely in Toriyama's script.

Spoiler

Dude it seems you don't understand what it means. Goku was in base form and he was going easy on the thugs because they are humans. You speak as if goku only has bullet level durability when this dude has multiple transformations which increases his power and durability.

The tower itself is large planet in size and an axis like phanteminum can erase it. And the tower exists in a world as we already know that people can enter/exit the tower.

And dude you are exaggerating the word 'HURT'. He was only scratched and he wasn't even in powered up state. Nowhere does it says that he is hurt.

The same goku who was fighting inside lava can somehow be HuRt by a bullet.

or the goku wgo friggn punched away a planet busting energy sphere.

 

[Demonspeed]

Dude it seems you don't understand what it means. Goku was in base form and he was going easy on the thugs because they are humans. So he was going easy on them. You speak as if goku only has bullet level durability when this dude has multiple transformations which increases his power and durability.

The tower itself is large planet in size and an axis like phanteminum can erase it. And the tower exists in a world as we already know that people can enter/exit the tower.

And dude you are exaggerating the word 'HURT'. He was only scratched and he wasn't even in powered up state. Nowhere does it says that he is hurt.

You said Goku suppressed his powers, he didn't. There is a difference between going easy on someone and suppressing your powers. The Tower is on an unknown planet, the ToG verse itself is part of the TUS(Urek and Phanta for example aren't from the same world as Zahard and co). I repeat, SIU is a meticulous person. If it was "Phantaminum" can just erase the Tower he would have said it.

Do you think it makes sense to say that "Goku is multiversal whatever" and defend the fact that a bullet managed to damage his body? In the first chapter of Dragon Ball, Kid Goku took a bullet and I think he was even less affected by them. When I posted the pics of Roshi dodging Jiren's attacks, you didn't say anything too.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2021 ---

Shouldn't Base Goku be Planet Level+ or whatever? Being in base is no excuse.

 

[Nie Li]

The bullet thing is not only a hit to his durability. It's also a hit to his reaction speed.

 

[Valhalla]

Goku has universal raw power, but power alone wont get Goku far against Phantaminum. A fictional character from a story cant beat an author. No matter how weak an Axis is, he/she can only be beaten by another axis.

 

[Blakestnight666]

You said Goku suppressed his powers, he didn't. There is a difference between going easy on someone and suppressing your powers. The Tower is on an unknown planet, the ToG verse itself is part of the TUS(Urek and Phanta for example aren't from the same world as Zahard and co). I repeat, SIU is a meticulous person. If it was "Phantaminum" can just erase the Tower he would have said it.

Do you think it makes sense to say that "Goku is multiversal whatever" and defend the fact that a bullet managed to damage his body? In the first chapter of Dragon Ball, Kid Goku took a bullet and I think he was even less affected by them. When I posted the pics of Roshi dodging Jiren's attacks, you didn't say anything too.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2021 ---

Shouldn't Base Goku be Planet Level+ or whatever? Being in base is no excuse.

Goku always has his power suppressed when not fighting and its a known fact. If you even knew anything about ki then you wouldn't have said so.

And lol i debunked you right there and then when i posted goku surviving in lava and punching a planet busting orb out of namek's atmosphere.

Show us the scan where it says that phanteminum can erase the entire T. O. G verse.

Does it make sense that goku was in base and his power suppressed and not any transformed state.And why are you exaggerating the scratch as if goku was injured severely and dying. Goku wasn't even serious. So don't understand why the fck you bring these things.

Oh jiren was going easy on master roshi. Even beerus and whis was impressed by him. And once jiren became serious he one shotted him. So why you even bring this here doesnt make sense.

And as i said you don't know what ki control is.

''Ki control

Most beings cannot freely control their ki, but many who can manipulate it also learn to control the flow of ki within their bodies, allowing them to channel larger or smaller amounts of their ki reserves. In essence, they can adjust their strength to match the situation, and generate attacks which contain larger concentrations of ki than they are normally capable of."

I think you can read the upper sentence right. It clearly means that a character can adjust their ki to their situation. And in that thugs'situation goku had to lower his ki so that he doesn't kill them.

And you know what's funny, i checked the episode and the chapter just now and it was clearly shown that goku had his guards down and was looking away. And before you say anything i will clear what guard is;

''Defense/Guard

Ki, once mastered at a basic level, carries more than just offensive and tactical power. While the durability of one's flesh and bones carry an obvious limit (even for races such as Saiyans, Namekians and deities) the extent of a fighter's ki does not carry these limits. As a result, fighters can increase their endurance by raising their guard to deflect ki attacks, although this obviously does drain energy. Lowering one's guard can result in much higher damage taken from attacks, even comparatively weak attacks such as scrapes, cuts, and bullets.''

I think now you understand what ki guard or ki control is right.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2021 ---

Goku has universal raw power, but power alone wont get Goku far against Phantaminum. A fictional character from a story cant beat an author. No matter how weak an Axis is, he/she can only be beaten by another axis.

Goku isn't part of T. O. G. So it doesn't matter if axis are writer or not

 

[Demonspeed]

Goku always having his power suppressed when he isn't fighting is not true at all. It has never been stated in the series AFAIR. It's something you came up with probably because it makes you feel better when you see stuff like this. Plus, he was fighting these guys. The very fact that he said that it was due to him getting rusty is more than enough to counter what you said too.

I can't show you pics of Phanta erasing the ToG-verse. SIU said he can, that's all that matters. My source aren't just the pictures.

Ki control in Dragon Ball has never been particularly fleshed out. I am a DB fan too, I have seen what Goku can do, but ignoring the "embarrassing" feats, don't change the fact that they exist.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2021 ---

Roshi being able to dodge Jiren's moves, even when he is holding back, is absolutely ridiculous. And it was not just once.

 

[Blakestnight666]

Goku always having his power suppressed when he isn't fighting is not true at all. It has never been stated in the series AFAIR. It's something you came up with probably because it makes you feel better when you see stuff like this. Plus, he was fighting these guys. The very fact that he said that it was due to him getting rusty is more than enough to counter what you said too.

I can't show you pics of Phanta erasing the ToG-verse. SIU said he can, that's all that matters. My source aren't just the pictures.

Ki control in Dragon Ball has never been particularly fleshed out. I am a DB fan too, I have seen what Goku can do, but ignoring the "embarrassing" feats, don't change the fact that they exist.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2021 ---

Roshi being able to dodge Jiren's moves, even when he is holding back, is absolutely ridiculous. And it was not just once.

It's clear he suppressing theses guys. And as i proved he Had lowered his guards and was looking at a different direction.

So you can't post scans of SIU saying he can do that ooooookkkkkkkkkk niceeee

Ki control has been pretty fleshed out. It isn't embarrassing when he was in base and was lowering his guards.

As i said that's roshi's feat. Even beerus and whis were impressed by him. So i have no idea why you even bring it

 

[Valhalla]

Goku isn't part of T. O. G. So it doesn't matter if axis are writer or not

Thats not how these crossover vs battles work. If we went by this logic than most of the characters wouldnt even be able to fight each other.
Example; there is no shinsu outside the Tower. Does that mean that in whatever place Goku and Urek are fighting, Urek wont be able to use Shinsu. Or if they are fighting in the Tower, Goku would have a hard time moving because he does not have Shinsu resistance. You have to look at these battles somewhere in the middle with each character having all their abilities and at their best. Some powers you also have to translate into other similiar powers or make parallels with other known powers and abilities.

Either way T.O.G is just one story in the universe. Phantaminum's reach goes outside the tower.

And about the stated godly power of Phantaminum and what he could do, its all in SIU's blogs and interviews. I could try finding it, but i wont because there are just to many blog posts and they are in korean, plus this aint my fight, im just here enjoying the discussions. Quite a battle i must say. Probably the most enjoyable in this batch.

 

[lakhan220]

About Urek's upper limit, it is unknown. Because we never saw his full power, but we have some feats in the story, statements by the author and can scale what he can do compared to other characters who are weaker than him. Unlike Toriyama, SIU is particular about feats and world building. I said it in the previous thread, but casually destroying a floor isn't an issue for Urek, Guardians and the Family Heads. SIU lets him do amazing stuff once in a while when he is fooling around and tease us about his full power.

A floor is at least as big as North America, the wikia says that it makes the Tower at least 11 times bigger than earth. A character weaker than Urek can destroy half of the Tower simply by decompressing one of his spears so do the maths there. The character card about him having LS attacks have been there for more than a decade and as we advance, we do see that there is no reason to doubt any of that.

Ok, I will up tht for you even more. Urek has destructive ability of sun - a star & Sun = 1.3 millions earth ...Is tht ok ? Let's say he can even compress to tht level.
Once again Goku's energy = capable of destroying whole galaxy .
A galaxy = at least 100 million stars and several stars 10s of 100s of times of sun exists too.
Goku is compressed to amoeba = still capable of destryoing several solar systems with his energy...can generate tht much.

Let me make it easier for you even again. I m bringing down goku's pl 100 times down= still 1 million stars. At size of amoeba still able to generate tht much energy

Now let's compare . A blast tht can span several solar systems vs a compression technique which can at best do sun (and tht is me being really generous giving 1.3 million times his ability or anything portrayed in the series.) - so battle starts, goku releases tht level blast vs urek uses compression...sorry man, but urek is dying no matter what here. Goku even at size of amoeba nerfed can still annihilate urek.

Now tht brings me to durability. So if u can say his durability is only gun bullet level in base mode, let's not forget tht very same goku was hurt by stone in supersaiyan mode by krillin
But tht very same goku in supersaiyan endured the blow of kid buu, which was increased by velocity and acceleration after rotating several times across planet kai and fell like a meteor which shaped entire planet by pure raw power without receiving any significant damage....so, there u also have to take into acct tht. Not just tht, other feats during dbs too.

First of all, explain to me how compression works in ToG.
Is it like brandish in FT or like bijuudama + chibaku tensei - relies on gravity ? Depending on both, only one can compress Goku then.

But like i said...u can compress goku to amoeba levels, nerf his strength , still u absolutely have no answer to the amt of energy he can generate which can blast multiple solar systems.

As for tht other character being discussed, tht is author syndrome character. means not suitable for tournament like zeno is.

 

[Demonspeed]

It's clear he suppressing theses guys. And as i proved he Had lowered his guards and was looking at a different direction.

So you can't post scans of SIU saying he can do that ooooookkkkkkkkkk niceeee

Ki control has been pretty fleshed out. It isn't embarrassing when he was in base and was lowering his guards.

As i said that's roshi's feat. Even beerus and whis were impressed by him. So i have no idea why you even bring it

So, everything is clear for Goku but when I mention something I always need to post proofs? It's embarrassing yes because:

1. You claim that Base Goku is universal, mutiversal or something, he still got scratched by bullet. But you find this acceptable.
2. Ki control has never been fleshed out in Dragon Ball.
3. Looking at another direction? Did you miss this? And if that's enough to deal with such a martial artist, yes, it should be embarrassing.
4. You want Phanta's feats, pics even, but you want Roshi's feat to be ignored in this battle. Of course, because it doesn't make DB looks as mighty as you want.

What I said never changed. I said that Goku would get compressed by Urek, nerfing his abilities and so he would be easily outclassed by Urek. IT could allow him to avoid sealing potentially, but not defeating Urek when he would be probably even smaller than an ant. You claimed that DB characters can't be affected by hax, it has been proven wrong. Even the fact that UI can't be hit has been proven in this thread. Toriyama isn't that serious. You are the first one who mentioned feats of different characters. As of now, I still don't see how Goku could avoid being defeated by compression. A miniature Goku is certainly not going to defeat him.

 

[lakhan220]

So, everything is clear for Goku but when I mention something I always need to post proofs? It's embarassing yes because:

1. You claim that Base Goku is universal, mutiversal or something, he still got scratched by bullet. But you find this acceptable.
2. Ki control has never been fleshed out in Dragon Ball.
3. Looking at another direction? Did you miss this? And if that's enough to deal with such a martial artist, yes, it should be embarrassing.
4. You want Phanta's feats, pics even, but you want Roshi's feat to be ignored in this battle.

What I said never changed. I said that Goku would get compressed by Urek, nerfing his abilities and so he would be easily outclassed by Urek. IT could allow him to avoid sealing potentially, but not defeating Urek when he would be probably even smaller than an ant. You claimed that DB characters can't be affected by hax, it has been proven wrong. Even the fact that UI can't be hit has been proven in this thread. Toriyama isn't that serious. You are the first one who mentioned feats of different characters. As of now, I still don't see how Goku could avoid being defeated by compression. A miniature Goku is certainly not going to defeat him.

Sorry man, but goku won't be defeated even at size of amoeba, much less ant. he just has to release omni directional blast. simple as tht.
And one thing i noticed is all urek's feats is based on he achieves compression.
Imo, even with compression, he won't be able to do tht.
First of all, like i said...how and when will he get time to activate and use compression. Battle starts - both release omni directional blasts. And be it quality or quantity, urek is outclassed in all departments by amoeba goku , much less a full sized saiyan one.


Btw i haven't even started on what after compressed state because size reduction also increases other advantages for him like candy vegito. So, let's first solve this basics.

1-How is he gonna get time to activate compression, which not only reduces blast released by goku, also compress him too at the same time ?
2-How much nerfed do u think he will be ? A person of tht amt of energy ?
3-Where does it state tht other than physical state and staistics, internal ki energy can be reduced too by compression ? or something along the lines..basically affecting the inner structure and reducing aura.

Because from where i see it, this is not captain ginyuu's body change tht u can deprive him of energy....at best nerf it like u r stating.....but being able to nerf enough to be at a level stronger than amoeba goku ? No, i don't see tht yet here.

We r also assuming tht urek has reaction speed of goku here too, not transport speed let me clarify.