Canon Vergo vs Sanji with Raid Suit

[Grandmaster Woro]

Judge beat Sanji by using bait, not being stronger than Sanji. Sanji was quite obviously stronger than Judge, and that’s pre raid suit.

were you referring to the human wall? First, human wall is not bait. The clones are part of his creation, after all. I would say they are similar to cracker soldiers or doflamingo string clone. Not to mention sanji actually was not caught off guard since he attempted to block the attack, although the block attempt failed because judge overwhelmed sanji

Second, even when we are being generous towards sanji side and considered that as "cheating", the fight is a one-sided win for judge

All of these are before the human wall scene

 

[Crimson Ice]

were you referring to the human wall? First, human wall is not bait. The clones are part of his creation, after all. I would say they are similar to cracker soldiers or doflamingo string clone. Not to mention sanji actually was not caught off guard since he attempted to block the attack, although the block attempt failed because judge overwhelmed sanji

Second, even when we are being generous towards sanji side and considered that as "cheating", the fight is a one-sided win for judge

All of these are before the human wall scene

The clones are not his battle strength and the clones led to Sanji withholding his attack. Judge is not stronger than Sanji. Sanji was caught off guard as he abruptly stopped his attack, if he saw the human wall coming he wouldn’t have been soo surprised.

Judge struggled to block a base Sanji kick, Sanji easily parried his next attack and no sold two hits from Judge. Reiju even notes how sturdy Sanji is because he came away from the fight with just a small scratch above one of his eyebrows. Sanji’s head wasn’t even complete in the fight as he’s having flashbacks throughout it, yet Judge barely damages Sanji even while cheating. Sanji is superior to Judge without the raid suit, with it Sanji stomps Judge.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

The clones are not his battle strength and the clones led to Sanji withholding his attack. Judge is not stronger than Sanji. Sanji was caught off guard as he abruptly stopped his attack, if he saw the human wall coming he wouldn’t have been soo surprised.

Judge struggled to block a base Sanji kick, Sanji easily parried his next attack and no sold two hits from Judge. Reiju even notes how sturdy Sanji is because he came away from the fight with just a small scratch above one of his eyebrows. Sanji’s head wasn’t even complete in the fight as he’s having flashbacks throughout it, yet Judge barely damages Sanji even while cheating. Sanji is superior to Judge without the raid suit, with it Sanji stomps Judge.

sanji stopped his attack, but he also still attempted to block the attack. And judge overwhelmed him with EM shaft.

can you tell me when judge struggled to block him? Because the manga pictures showed different thing. Sanji was brought to his knee in the ground fight and was knocked down in the aerial fight. The flashback thing is irrelevant to sanji fight. That's like saying luffy lost to kaido because he was worried about his crewmates. That's just a headcanon.

Judge beat sanji in both ground fight and aerial fight.

 

[M3J]

I could answer this just be posting again exactly what you're quoting.

What do you mean "Given Sanji kept fighting until both chose to abandon the fight" if the fight only lasted one more page? The fight stopped almost immediately after the leg fracture.

It makes no sense how people keep insisting Sanji had a good chance of winning that fight despite everything the manga shows.

One panel showed multiple kicks be exchanged?

Because the manga did not show Sanji would have lost. It showed he had a chance of winning, but as many have pointed out, it wouldn't have been a good chance by Sanji's own admission. He'd have either been severely damaged if he won or would have lost. Despite what you think, I'm not ignoring what Sanji said, only thing I'm doing is not restricting the meaning to what I want. It's open-ended in that in best case scenario, Sanji would win but take too much damage.

 

[King Moe]

One panel showed multiple kicks be exchanged?

Because the manga did not show Sanji would have lost. It showed he had a chance of winning, but as many have pointed out, it wouldn't have been a good chance by Sanji's own admission. He'd have either been severely damaged if he won or would have lost. Despite what you think, I'm not ignoring what Sanji said, only thing I'm doing is not restricting the meaning to what I want. It's open-ended in that in best case scenario, Sanji would win but take too much damage.

Let's be honest here, when has Oda indicated with even your bones or flesh damage from damage bones or piercing wounds does it means you lose a fight? Look at Usopp after getting his skull cracked open by Mr. 4, Harjudan when Machivise crushed his most of his body bones, Luffy getting pierce through his ribs by Katakuri, etc, but did they all lost their fights? No they didn't. They actually won them all in the end, so if Oda is pushing them to beat someone even through injuries like those, Sanji beating Vergo is likely to happen given he was adjusting back to his body and didn't use his full arsenal in the fight. Also argument with Rayleigh says that harder the fight, the stronger you get, so same applies to Sanji if the fight went further. Given leg issue never both him later, shows Sanji can keep fighting if it went on, just that fight would be difficult just same case with Luffy doubting himself with Katakuri and still won in the end.

 

[Crimson Ice]

sanji stopped his attack, but he also still attempted to block the attack. And judge overwhelmed him with EM shaft.

can you tell me when judge struggled to block him? Because the manga pictures showed different thing. Sanji was brought to his knee in the ground fight and was knocked down in the aerial fight. The flashback thing is irrelevant to sanji fight. That's like saying luffy lost to kaido because he was worried about his crewmates. That's just a headcanon.

Judge beat sanji in both ground fight and aerial fight.

Sanji tried to block last minute because he was caught off guard by the human shield, you didn’t prove anything by saying that. Sanji was doing a full blown kick but had to switch it up mid attack, not to mention, Sanji no sold that EM shaft.

Judge struggled to block when he blocked and his arm was bruised, Sanji didn’t get bruised from direct shot from Judge, yet a blocked base kick from Sanji bruised Judge? Getting knocked down with zero damage isn’t losing the ‘fight’, not to mention, IM NOT DEBATING WHO WON OR LOST! My first reply was stating Sanji lost the skirmish because of the human shield, not because he was weaker.

That’s a stupid comparison, if we were shown Luffy actively flashing back to his crew mates you would have made a valid comparison. Judge even calls out Sanji for reminiscing mid fight, your Luffy comparison was a false equivalence.

All this fight proved it that Judge’s firepower is lacking. Niji without the raid suit did more damage to Sanji in one hit than Judge did the entire fight.

 

[Nie Li]

One panel showed multiple kicks be exchanged?

Because the manga did not show Sanji would have lost. It showed he had a chance of winning, but as many have pointed out, it wouldn't have been a good chance by Sanji's own admission. He'd have either been severely damaged if he won or would have lost. Despite what you think, I'm not ignoring what Sanji said, only thing I'm doing is not restricting the meaning to what I want. It's open-ended in that in best case scenario, Sanji would win but take too much damage.

"In the best case scenario", but it's a too far-fetched scenario for how the things were going. There's the thing about Sanji admitting it would have been bad if the fight had gone on and being relieved that Vergo had to leave, but also, it was still like five seconds of fighting at most (and I'm being generous) after the leg broke. Sanji only fights with his legs. It's to be expected that if the leg is broken, it was a matter of time that the wound would have been much worse if the fight had gone on. Both his kicking power and his defense (since he only blocks with his leg) and even his stability would have gone down.

On one hand, using techniques like Diable Jambe wouldn't have changed much; its only logical that its power would have also gone down the same way every other kick would have. On the other hand, Vergo didn't have any major injury and still had his "full body super armament haki" and his bamboo stick.

Of course, since the fight was stopped, perhaps Sanji could have eventually won, you could say that about any fight that's stopped mid-way. but it's far-fetched and it's not what the scene was hinting at, not even before Vergo later showed his real abilities on Smoker and Law.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Sanji tried to block last minute because he was caught off guard by the human shield, you didn’t prove anything by saying that. Sanji was doing a full blown kick but had to switch it up mid attack, not to mention, Sanji no sold that EM shaft.

Judge struggled to block when he blocked and his arm was bruised, Sanji didn’t get bruised from direct shot from Judge, yet a blocked base kick from Sanji bruised Judge? Getting knocked down with zero damage isn’t losing the ‘fight’, not to mention, IM NOT DEBATING WHO WON OR LOST! My first reply was stating Sanji lost the skirmish because of the human shield, not because he was weaker.

That’s a stupid comparison, if we were shown Luffy actively flashing back to his crew mates you would have made a valid comparison. Judge even calls out Sanji for reminiscing mid fight, your Luffy comparison was a false equivalence.

All this fight proved it that Judge’s firepower is lacking. Niji without the raid suit did more damage to Sanji in one hit than Judge did the entire fight.

sanji already lost the skirmish even before the human shield. I already showed you the picture from the manga. Judge knocked down sanji in the aerial fight.
How is that somehow zero damage on sanji, while judge "was bruised" wasn't zero damage? Stop making headcanon. Judge clearly can still move well after "the bruise".

How does reminiscing affect the fight when sanji can still react to anything judge did. The flashback thing doesn't affect the fight since sanji still managed to block the attack anyway. That is just your headcanon.

 

[King Moe]

Welp latest chapters just show Sanji easily tanking King's attack in Full Zoan, so Sanji at this point would easily washed away Vergo unless 'certain few' want push Vergo is YC lvl over them all by some headcannon nonsense XD.

Sanji defeats Vergo at ease at his current power and still getting stronger as the series progress.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Welp latest chapters just show Sanji easily tanking King's attack in Full Zoan, so Sanji at this point would easily washed away Vergo unless 'certain few' want push Vergo is YC lvl over them all by some headcannon nonsense XD.

Sanji defeats Vergo at ease at his current power and still getting stronger as the series progress.

easily tanked? Sanji was panicking when king attacked him. That's not how a person who can easily tank attack would react.
Sanji just managed to survive due to RS (and ofc because oda doesn't want a SHP to die easily like that)

Vergo had strong CoA that easily wrecked sanji legs before. At worst, vergo would only just need to use his bamboo weapon to beat sanji. Sanji still lost here

 

[King Moe]

easily tanked? Sanji was panicking when king attacked him. That's not how a person who can easily tank attack would react.
Sanji just managed to survive due to RS (and ofc because oda doesn't want a SHP to die easily like that)

Vergo had strong CoA that easily wrecked sanji legs before. At worst, vergo would only just need to use his bamboo weapon to beat sanji. Sanji still lost here

Where he was panicking? He was nonchalant about it after rising up and kept on walking and pay King not much mind when rescuing Momo. What are you on now? Anyone can see Sanji was fine after the attack and nothing Vergo has is anything above King. Now your pushing imagination to say Vergo can still do same even in that state when King couldn't split him in half like he was intending XD.

Sanji even nerf was able to damage Vergo, so at this state he could beat Vergo without and with RS no problem.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Where he was panicking?

doesn't seem like a guy who was "nonchalant" about it

What are you on now? Anyone can see Sanji was fine after the attack and nothing Vergo has is anything above King. Now your pushing imagination to say Vergo can still do same even in that state when King couldn't split him in half like he was intending XD.

Sanji even nerf was able to damage Vergo, so at this state he could beat Vergo without and with RS no problem.

not a headcanon, and you need to stop saying that anything that was against you as "headcanon". Bring proper counterargument rather than just denying things without proper proof. Just helping you to be better here

Sanji clearly lost hard against vergo in PH. Vergo wasn't minding sanji seriously for a while, and he easily fractured sanji's legs easily when he bothered to fight him more seriously. Sanji even said to himself that it would be bad for him if the fight continued longer. Vergo didn't even use his bamboo weapon yet (which he used against smoker and law) or full body armament. Sanji was no match for vergo in haki feats.

I don't have anything against sanji, sanji is actually one of my favorite characters, but i know sanji isn't the toughest fighter and i am not distorted enough to think that sanji ever had any hope to win against vergo

 

[King Moe]

doesn't seem like a guy who was "nonchalant" about it


not a headcanon, and you need to stop saying that anything that was against you as "headcanon". Bring proper counterargument rather than just denying things without proper proof. Just helping you to be better here

Sanji clearly lost hard against vergo in PH. Vergo wasn't minding sanji seriously for a while, and he easily fractured sanji's legs easily when he bothered to fight him more seriously. Sanji even said to himself that it would be bad for him if the fight continued longer. Vergo didn't even use his bamboo weapon yet (which he used against smoker and law) or full body armament. Sanji was no match for vergo in haki feats.

I don't have anything against sanji, sanji is actually one of my favorite characters, but i know sanji isn't the toughest fighter and i am not distorted enough to think that sanji ever had any hope to win against vergo

Japanese translation stated he was joking around same when Kizaru 'panicked' when he was going to get hurt by Marco or afraid of Ben Beckman. Sanji came out of that fine and not even scared of being in front of King again. It is in your imagination if your trying to push that along with how Vergo is able to do damage when King couldn't even hurt him.

Nah, Sanji bested him better even nerf and hurt while Vergo couldn't finish his job that Doffy told him. If the fight went on longer, Sanji would win and defeat him and plus Sanji wasn't even going all out in the fight to boot, so nothing you can state to say he was using his full power when he wasn't. Sanji easily defeats him without much problem at this point and pushing Vergo > King is illogical no matter how you want to spin your fantasy.

Dude, you do as we seen your post around. Your penname even gives it away on who you see as your favorite character. It's ok to dislike a character, but don't be blind in attempts to downplay them just because Zoro is having his own issues in his own durability and stamina shown on him.

 

[Takuan]

What's the point of that thread anyway? Can we stop this nonsense for a second?

A Vergo vs Sanji thread before Dressrosa would make sense. A current Sanji vs Vergo is already hard to debate, but Sanji with Raid Suit, losing to Vergo? Really?
People need to stop undermining certain characters.

 

[King Moe]

What's the point of that thread anyway? Can we stop this nonsense for a second?

A Vergo vs Sanji thread before Dressrosa would make sense. A current Sanji vs Vergo is already hard to debate, but Sanji with Raid Suit, losing to Vergo? Really?
People need to stop undermining certain characters.

Unless you want say Vergo somehow is stronger than King who couldn't even damage RS himself, then nothing backs anything on Vergo being strnoegr than YC lvl enemy when even Doffy himself was afraid to face Kaido and his own people being YC lvl threat.

Honestly this thread feels more like a bait than actual concrete debate like you said. We should close it off at this point like certain threads around.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Japanese translation stated he was joking around same when Kizaru 'panicked' when he was going to get hurt by Marco or afraid of Ben Beckman. Sanji came out of that fine and not even scared of being in front of King again. It is in your imagination if your trying to push that along with how Vergo is able to do damage when King couldn't even hurt him.

Nah, Sanji bested him better even nerf and hurt while Vergo couldn't finish his job that Doffy told him. If the fight went on longer, Sanji would win and defeat him and plus Sanji wasn't even going all out in the fight to boot, so nothing you can state to say he was using his full power when he wasn't. Sanji easily defeats him without much problem at this point and pushing Vergo > King is illogical no matter how you want to spin your fantasy.

Dude, you do as we seen your post around. Your penname even gives it away on who you see as your favorite character. It's ok to dislike a character, but don't be blind in attempts to downplay them just because Zoro is having his own issues in his own durability and stamina shown on him.

Doesn't look like the face of a guy joking around. The attack definitely is fatal for sanji if he wasn't wearing his RS.

Sanji already went all out against vergo, he already used his diable jambe. Yet, vergo took the attacks like it's nothing and easily wrecked sanji even without using full hardening or his signature weapon. Vergo stomped sanji hard.
When did i say vergo > king? Stop accusing other people for things they never said. If you don't understand what i am saying, just ask me to clarify, don't just misinterpret it.

lmao when did i say zoro isn't my favorite? I said sanji is one of my favorites, not the most favorite. But as i said, i am not distorted to think that sanji could win against vergo at PH
Don't derail the topic by bringing zoro here to bash at him.

 

[King Moe]

Doesn't look like the face of a guy joking around. The attack definitely is fatal for sanji if he wasn't wearing his RS.

Sanji already went all out against vergo, he already used his diable jambe. Yet, vergo took the attacks like it's nothing and easily wrecked sanji even without using full hardening or his signature weapon. Vergo stomped sanji hard.
When did i say vergo > king? Stop accusing other people for things they never said. If you don't understand what i am saying, just ask me to clarify, don't just misinterpret it.

lmao when did i say zoro isn't my favorite? I said sanji is one of my favorites, not the most favorite. But as i said, i am not distorted to think that sanji could win against vergo at PH
Don't derail the topic by bringing zoro here to bash at him.

Again he came out of that unscathed and he didn't have no problem being in front of King and even mention him along with flying DF users. Your imagination is running wild again if you think Sanji wasn't joking there in his fight with King.

Lol, so your really sticking Vergo is above King as if King couldn't hurt him, somehow Vergo still can? You have zero prove on the matter even more about if Sanji went all out as he never did. Him using DJ is like Luffy using his Gears effortlessly without drawbacks, nothing supports that just because they like using them at the start as that isn't their full power. He didn't even use one of Hell Memories moves in the fight to begin with, but even nerf wsa abale to damage him badly to bleed and push him back twice. Vergo not going all out doesn't change that he couldn't take out an man who was nerf going into the fight. He choose to leave instead of finishing his job, so it pushes Vergo couldn't take him in the long-run if he thought he could get through.

He isn't your favorite, we seen you around bashing him when someone praising him. Don't denied that over your love for Zoro if you can't be truthful. Your penname and avatar is too much of a give away.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Again he came out of that unscathed and he didn't have no problem being in front of King and even mention him along with flying DF users. Your imagination is running wild again if you think Sanji wasn't joking there in his fight with King.

Lol, so your really sticking Vergo is above King as if King couldn't hurt him, somehow Vergo still can? You have zero prove on the matter even more about if Sanji went all out as he never did. Him using DJ is like Luffy using his Gears effortlessly without drawbacks, nothing supports that just because they like using them at the start as that isn't their full power. He didn't even use one of Hell Memories moves in the fight to begin with, but even nerf wsa abale to damage him badly to bleed and push him back twice. Vergo not going all out doesn't change that he couldn't take out an man who was nerf going into the fight. He choose to leave instead of finishing his job, so it pushes Vergo couldn't take him in the long-run if he thought he could get through.

He isn't your favorite, we seen you around bashing him when someone praising him. Don't denied that over your love for Zoro if you can't be truthful. Your penname and avatar is too much of a give away.

If sanji was joking around, why does his face seem distressed in the panel i showed?

when did i say vergo is above king? Stop lying. Hell memories is no match for full hardened vergo with bamboo weapon, especially since casual vergo broke sanji legs with one hit. Not to mention vergo can just wreck sanji in his head anyway since it's not protected with raid suit. Sanji lost here

nah i am not bashing at sanji, just telling the truth when sanji would lose a battle.

 

[M3J]

"In the best case scenario", but it's a too far-fetched scenario for how the things were going. There's the thing about Sanji admitting it would have been bad if the fight had gone on and being relieved that Vergo had to leave, but also, it was still like five seconds of fighting at most (and I'm being generous) after the leg broke. Sanji only fights with his legs. It's to be expected that if the leg is broken, it was a matter of time that the wound would have been much worse if the fight had gone on. Both his kicking power and his defense (since he only blocks with his leg) and even his stability would have gone down.

On one hand, using techniques like Diable Jambe wouldn't have changed much; its only logical that its power would have also gone down the same way every other kick would have. On the other hand, Vergo didn't have any major injury and still had his "full body super armament haki" and his bamboo stick.

Of course, since the fight was stopped, perhaps Sanji could have eventually won, you could say that about any fight that's stopped mid-way. but it's far-fetched and it's not what the scene was hinting at, not even before Vergo later showed his real abilities on Smoker and Law.

It's not far-fetched at all, since as I've said, Sanji was still fighting and still moving with his leg still working and supporting him. Sanji was still exerting himself after the fight ended and didn't experience any issue after the first pain. There literally is no reason to believe he couldn't have continued against Vergo and even won. It'd be a different thing if he was limping until the end of the arc or showing issues with that leg, but not even an acknowledgement again.

Vergo used his real abilities on a Smoker who let himself get beaten, apparently, while he lost to Law. And you can't really say that about any fight - if Luffy vs. Aokiji was stopped midway, you know Luffy would lose anyway given how Aokiji dealing with him effortlessly. Here Sanji was dealing some damage to Vergo and didn't even collapse despite the fracture.




All I see here are attempts to troll Sanji and his fan/s, not actual arguments.

 

[Nie Li]

It's not far-fetched at all, since as I've said, Sanji was still fighting and still moving with his leg still working and supporting him. Sanji was still exerting himself after the fight ended and didn't experience any issue after the first pain. There literally is no reason to believe he couldn't have continued against Vergo and even won. It'd be a different thing if he was limping until the end of the arc or showing issues with that leg, but not even an acknowledgement again.

Vergo used his real abilities on a Smoker who let himself get beaten, apparently, while he lost to Law. And you can't really say that about any fight - if Luffy vs. Aokiji was stopped midway, you know Luffy would lose anyway given how Aokiji dealing with him effortlessly. Here Sanji was dealing some damage to Vergo and didn't even collapse despite the fracture.




All I see here are attempts to troll Sanji and his fan/s, not actual arguments.

Sanji was able to hold the pain and keep fighting fodder for some minutes, sure. That's a very good argument to say he could also have kept fighting against the man who fractured his leg with a single kick.

Sanji wasn't dealing much damage. He kicked Vergo twice in the face, one of them with diable jambe, and Vergo didn't even move nor coat himself with haki. If Vergo would have felt menaced by those kicks or thought he couldn't dodge them or take them, he would have then activated his fullbody hardening (according to his vibre card, his "fullbody SUPERhardening") to make sure Sanji "wouldn't deal more significant damage to him", but he didn't, because he didn't felt menaced at all. Instead, he rushed Sanji and fractured his leg with a single kick. A fractured leg is easy to break in two had the fight gone on, and Vergo still had to even get serious, draw his weapon or use his signature fullbody haki, while he had already experienced a diable jambe kick, Sanji's strongest form at the time.

After all that, and Sanji commented how bad it would have been for himself if the fight had continued, it's far-fetched to talk about he had chances of winning. It's not what was hinted in the fight, and the Vergo vs Smoker is more than enough proof of how easy Vergo was still going on Sanji.







All I see here are excuses to say your favorite character would win a fight despite everything in the manga hinting he was going to lose, not actual arguments. I don't wanna keep going in circles here.