Enel vs Kizaru

[kkck]

Enel had reasonable mastery over his fruit and moderate physical capacities however what made him dangerous was the specific abilities of his fruit. Electricity is something in itself difficult to deal with mostly due to it being a logia. There necessarily wasn't a difference in skill between enel and the monster trio, it was just that at their current level neither zoro or sanji had it in them to go up against a logia. Luffy in turn could handle the intangibility hence why he could go up against enel. In that regard, kizaru should have no more dificulty with enel than what he did against the strawhats or the supernova as his mastery of his fruit and haki appear to be greater than enel's to say the least. Enel has a hell of a fruit but against an admiral he would be as much of fodder as luffy or the other supernova were. Well, perhaps enel might be more capable of random destruction but that is about it.

 

[mattiaildivino]

kizaru is faster,and he is surely stronger!

 

[hyper_megaman]

CoO/mantra isn't exactly a danger sense. "Color of Observation: Haki", I believe, is an enhancement to observation i.e. perception that comes from the haki (or willpower/determination/conviction etc.) of the person that allows him/her to predict the mental state of the target(s). It's used mostly to predict what a person is thinking. We've seen it used as a radar by Enel to count how many people are still on Skypea as well as by Rayleigh to measure how many creatures on the island he trained Luffy on were stronger than Luffy, as well as where those creatures were. We also saw that Gan Fall had his house at a place far enough away from the Vearth that he was outside of Enel's mantra range to detect. We also saw that if the person being read using CoO were not thinking anything, then that person's actions cannot be predicted (Gomu Gomu no Baka: Chapter 281, page 13 & 14 and Gomu Gomu no Octopus Rampage: page 15 & 16 same chapter). CoO isn't like Sharingan or Byakugan in Naruto where you can see everything around you and predict what's going to happen. It can only predict living things by what's on their minds.

That said, the point I was making was that as Enel said in Chapter 278, page 2, his devil fruit gives him a bonus/enhancement that allows him to use CoO at an extended range that allows him to pinpoint anyone within his mantra range and use "God's Judgement" i.e. El Thor on them. This is an ability only he has because of the relationship between his use of devil fruit and his use of mantra (something Kizaru cannot do). If Enel is outside of Kizaru's CoO range, he cannot "see" Enel's attack no matter how fast he is. The only counter-argument I can think of right now for this is just to say that El Thor takes a while to charge up and Kizaru can easily turn elemental when he sees the beam of light forming over him . But if Kizaru doesn't physically see the attacks coming and prepare for them, Enel can attack him from outside of his CoO range and keep avoiding Kizaru because Kizaru will not know where Enel is attacking from.



That would be an interesting match up to see and I'm curious how Oda would play out such a battle since soru isn't exactly as fast as electricity and Lucci hasn't shown any signs of CoA haki. Anyways, it'd be nice if you could give some reference just for verification .

yea i never said it was a danger sense. I just compared it with spiderman, and now that i think about it, the sharingan

being able to see it/perceive it does not guarantee success in dodging. those are two different elements


also, lucci is capable of soru and geppou and a combination of both, given they both approach the fight in full knowledge of each other's powers i highly doubt enel would be able to hit lucci dashing around. this is contentious though, given the capability of enel's AOE, but from what i've seen even his widest AOEs are just limited to single specific hits/bolts that have to hit the target.

now carry that over to kizaru and it's likely kizaru, if he were trying to fight enel seriously, would use soru a lot combined with his light powers (assuming admirals are all masters of rokushiki). and as logias, they're both intangible to hits unless supported with haki, and kizaru is the only guy with COA haki here

your hypothetical situation of enel staying out of range would be moot, as even if out of range, kizaru could just phase out and stay in light mode and be immune to attacks, while firing laser beams i assume could be endowed with haki


in the long run, kizaru would win imho, just from assuming electricity can't affect light


p.s. i can't seem to find the enel v lucci fight thing on google though. think i remembered wrongly.

---------- Post added at 11:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ----------

Enel had reasonable mastery over his fruit and moderate physical capacities however what made him dangerous was the specific abilities of his fruit. Electricity is something in itself difficult to deal with mostly due to it being a logia. There necessarily wasn't a difference in skill between enel and the monster trio, it was just that at their current level neither zoro or sanji had it in them to go up against a logia. Luffy in turn could handle the intangibility hence why he could go up against enel. In that regard, kizaru should have no more dificulty with enel than what he did against the strawhats or the supernova as his mastery of his fruit and haki appear to be greater than enel's to say the least. Enel has a hell of a fruit but against an admiral he would be as much of fodder as luffy or the other supernova were. Well, perhaps enel might be more capable of random destruction but that is about it.

agreed

even if enel goes on a destructive rampage, all he would do is destroy his own footing, and kizaru knows geppou and could probably not even care about whether there's ground to stand on

rokushiki covers up a lot of dependency weaknesses, and coupled with kizaru's logia intangibility, and seeing as kizaru is the only person of the two logias to even know coa haki, i don't see how enel could win.

physically enel was athletic at best. kizaru is very likely superhuman

 

[Kyodai Senkan Mora]

I am convinced that most people on this thread are really underestimating Enel's devil's fruit.The goro goro no mi is one of the strongest devil's fruit.period. Even Robin commented on its reputation of being Invincible.The Fruit very likely naturally superior to Kizaru's pika pika no mi and this would give Enel a huge advantage over Kizaru in addition to his superior(implied) COO(mantra) skills.Really the only major advantage Kizaru has is COA and I should note here Luffy defeated the Boa sisters without Haki despite the fact that they are about the strongest Kuja(after Hancock) when they themselves were using COA.COA is not the magic bullet evryone is making it out to be.Sure it's useful but like everything else it can be beaten

 

[Wisshard]

When Robin commented that Goro fruit was one of those fruits who were reputed to be invincible, I'm pretty sure that she were referring to logia fruits. Besides, I don't think anyone is underestimating the immense power of the Goro fruit (I personally consider it the best ability), but an hax ability can only take you so far. Kizaru is simply miles and miles above Enel: the lightning man wouldn't even be able to register Kizaru's movements, let alone be able to put up a fight against Kizaru's top tier combat ability.

^Not that it would have any impact on this match-up, but why would the Goro fruit hold an inherent superiority over the Pika fruit?

 

[hyper_megaman]

I am convinced that most people on this thread are really underestimating Enel's devil's fruit.The goro goro no mi is one of the strongest devil's fruit.period. Even Robin commented on its reputation of being Invincible.The Fruit very likely naturally superior to Kizaru's pika pika no mi and this would give Enel a huge advantage over Kizaru in addition to his superior(implied) COO(mantra) skills.Really the only major advantage Kizaru has is COA and I should note here Luffy defeated the Boa sisters without Haki despite the fact that they are about the strongest Kuja(after Hancock) when they themselves were using COA.COA is not the magic bullet evryone is making it out to be.Sure it's useful but like everything else it can be beaten

yea but these are logias we're talking about

luffy couldn't even scratch the logias without using haki, if we ignore natural weaknesses

using the snake sisters as a comparison is totally devoid of logic, as the main point now is 2 logias fighting each other

enel couldn't hurt kizaru, kizaru would be able to hurt enel. from this point alone, without discussing anything else, it's pretty obvious kizaru takes it

 

[Anduren]

your hypothetical situation of enel staying out of range would be moot, as even if out of range, kizaru could just phase out and stay in light mode and be immune to attacks, while firing laser beams i assume could be endowed with haki


in the long run, kizaru would win imho, just from assuming electricity can't affect light

Yeah... the hypothetical situation was an extremely long range battle case where it wouldn't go anywhere except be a draw just like you said assuming they both had their guard up ready for battle. In a short range battle case, Enel would be knocked out before he can turn his head just like Wisshard said. But like in every One Piece battle situation, the surroundings and situation of the battle can determine the winner. For example, even though light is faster than electricity, it can only travel in a straight line and bounce off of reflective surfaces, whereas electricity can travel along any conducting surface (depending on surface electrical resistance).

We also can't discount Kizaru being able to use Rokushiki even though we haven't once seen him use it, because vice admirals have been seen using it. I'm also a bit curious about the capacity of Kizaru to use CoA haki because, even though he was seen using (most probably) CoA haki with the other two admirals guarding against whitebeard's ability on the iron wall, we haven't once seen him using it to the extent of Aokiji or Akainu in actual combat. I may be forgetting some scenes from the war so correct me if I'm wrong but the way I remember, his attacks weren't often, if ever, reinforced with CoA haki (like vs. Marco). According to what Coby said in chater 594, page 6, and what Rayleigh said chapter 597, page 16, it's hard to guess which type of haki Kizaru specializes in because as his name (yellow monkey) implies, he's yet to take a battle seriously or use his full potential (Rokushiki or haki). All we know is that he's supposed to be able to use both of them to some proficiency even though we haven't seen him use them.

What we can be sure of is that Enel is not able to use CoA haki at all which means there's no way he can damage Kizaru because his element of electricity doesn't have a suppressive relationship with the element of light.

About the goro goro fruit being one of the most powerful abilities, the reason it was compared to godly power is because historically, lightning has been associated with gods (Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, etc) A good example of this is how Enel used names of gods from different regions of the world as his attacks. This doesn't necessarily mean that as an element it's greater than other elements specifically. Like I said earlier, electricity vs light is similar to flame vs smoke (Ace vs Smoker battle in Arabasta) which is a draw in terms of elements leaving out haki.

 

[Kyodai Senkan Mora]

yea but these are logias we're talking about

luffy couldn't even scratch the logias without using haki, if we ignore natural weaknesses

using the snake sisters as a comparison is totally devoid of logic, as the main point now is 2 logias fighting each other

enel couldn't hurt kizaru, kizaru would be able to hurt enel. from this point alone, without discussing anything else, it's pretty obvious kizaru takes it

If we ignore natural weaknesses?.....well sir, when i posted that I DID NOT ignore natural weaknesses hence voila! logic!!! A natural weakness trumps the logia defence(Ace,Crocodile,Enel)...leaving only COA and natural fighting skills....and COA can be beaten(Boa sisters) hence the logic in the post

---------- Post added at 03:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------

a bolt of lightning can travel at speeds of 220,000 km/h (140,000 mph)(admittedly slower than light but much faster than oh..say rayleigh who managed to hold kizaru in a fight with no DF/p.s if we assume COO helped him keep up then Enel should as well seeing as he had monstrous COO capabilities in conjunction with his DF), and can reach temperatures approaching 30,000 °C (54,000 °F)[compare to surface of the sun(6000°C) or magma(1000-1500°C)-----very relevant as Enel had heating attacks like "Kaminari Yakin Gurōmu Padoringu"] and can strike 10 miles away from a thunderstorm(Remember "Kami no Sabaki El Thor"),produces anywhere from 100mil to a billion volts of elec. and has billions of watts......oh by the way am making a case for superiority here if anybody is wondering....Really Enel may or may not win this,but he is not the underdog most of you are making him out to be!!!

 

[hyper_megaman]

If we ignore natural weaknesses?.....well sir, when i posted that I DID NOT ignore natural weaknesses hence voila! logic!!! A natural weakness trumps the logia defence(Ace,Crocodile,Enel)...leaving only COA and natural fighting skills....and COA can be beaten(Boa sisters) hence the logic in the post

---------- Post added at 03:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------

a bolt of lightning can travel at speeds of 220,000 km/h (140,000 mph)(admittedly slower than light but much faster than oh..say rayleigh who managed to hold kizaru in a fight with no DF/p.s if we assume COO helped him keep up then Enel should as well seeing as he had monstrous COO capabilities in conjunction with his DF), and can reach temperatures approaching 30,000 °C (54,000 °F)[compare to surface of the sun(6000°C) or magma(1000-1500°C)-----very relevant as Enel had heating attacks like "Kaminari Yakin Gurōmu Padoringu"] and can strike 10 miles away from a thunderstorm(Remember "Kami no Sabaki El Thor"),produces anywhere from 100mil to a billion volts of elec. and has billions of watts......oh by the way am making a case for superiority here if anybody is wondering....Really Enel may or may not win this,but he is not the underdog most of you are making him out to be!!!

and there is no evidence kizaru has any natural weakness, and even if he does that enel has access to it at all


underdog is a relative term. whitebeard vs roger, whitebeard would be the underdog. it does not in any way imply whitebeard is weak

enel vs kizaru, enel IS the underdog, like it or not. it's indisputable with the facts we've seen for now, not without conclusive evidence of kizaru having an actual elemental weakness enel can exploit easily

 

[kulugo]

what if, let's say enel trained for 2 years. reaching same status, power, haki with kizaru.
so basically they're even in terms of haki, fighting ability, physical strength, what else..
the only battle would be between their devil fruits. who would win?

 

[Uriel]

what if, let's say enel trained for 2 years. reaching same status, power, haki with kizaru.
so basically they're even in terms of haki, fighting ability, physical strength, what else..
the only battle would be between their devil fruits. who would win?

The thing is that Kizaru wouldn't be quiet in those two years and probably get stronger too.

Still, I think that Light is stronger than Lighting. Why? Because Light is faster.

 

[hyper_megaman]

what if, let's say enel trained for 2 years. reaching same status, power, haki with kizaru.
so basically they're even in terms of haki, fighting ability, physical strength, what else..
the only battle would be between their devil fruits. who would win?

that is a very good question

without devil fruit specifics, we wouldn't know

this is assuming they both know rokushiki too right?

i'm inclined to choose enel in this case, his attacks have a slightly greater AOE advantage. just SLIGHTLY but that could turn the tide of battle. and his enhanced COO would be epic

---------- Post added at 11:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 PM ----------

The thing is that Kizaru wouldn't be quiet in those two years and probably get stronger too.

Still, I think that Light is stronger than Lighting. Why? Because Light is faster.

i think he just wants a hypothetical scenario where two people of identical physical capability have each fruit and duke it out

in that sense, both of them are fast (soru), it doesn't matter how fast light can move because kizaru's reaction time isn't gonna be fast enough to utilise it anyway, and that bottleneck will make soru pretty much still useful. if u've analysed kizaru's speed travels, they aren't equivalent to the flash or quicksilver where they have increased reaction times. he has to think, then fire in a specific direction before he travels there. in that process, a soru user would have already dodged it


so it all comes down to AoE, whoever has the larger AoE has the greatest likelihood of hitting. not to mention COO mantra, anduren's hypothetical strategy comes back into play. I can see enel spamming lightning from a storm cloud from a great distance, and if kizaru attempts to close in, he could AoE cage shield himself and soru away and attack from the darkness again.

kizaru wouldn't be able to snipe from a distance as his COO is very very powerful, and if kizaru were to be within his range in the first place his attacks would be detected

 

[zelllogan]

The result would be the same as the fight Akainu vs Ace ... Similar devil fruits but one is simply much stronger than the other.
You add haki & experience to the equation ...

Kizaru vs Enel ... Why not Mihawk vs Brook ?

 

[kulugo]

like hyper_megaman said, its a hypothetical scenario but you'd never know, kizaru might have been fighting fodder pirates or been eating a lot of donuts the past 2 years that he has gotten weak or did not improvement at all. while enel might have rigorous training same as luffy.

one thing i noticed about kizaru's DF is that he travels straight or can't turn. right?

 

[hyper_megaman]

like hyper_megaman said, its a hypothetical scenario but you'd never know, kizaru might have been fighting fodder pirates or been eating a lot of donuts the past 2 years that he has gotten weak or did not improvement at all. while enel might have rigorous training same as luffy.

one thing i noticed about kizaru's DF is that he travels straight or can't turn. right?

there is no evidence to suggest enel can shift his position either d uring travelling

when we're at that stage of physical capability, i highly doubt either of them would over rely on their logia powers as well

like i said, they might as well use soru+geppou in a lot of situations

 

[Uriel]

i think he just wants a hypothetical scenario where two people of identical physical capability have each fruit and duke it out

in that sense, both of them are fast (soru), it doesn't matter how fast light can move because kizaru's reaction time isn't gonna be fast enough to utilise it anyway, and that bottleneck will make soru pretty much still useful. if u've analysed kizaru's speed travels, they aren't equivalent to the flash or quicksilver where they have increased reaction times. he has to think, then fire in a specific direction before he travels there. in that process, a soru user would have already dodged it

Thing is that it then wouldn't be a fight between Enel versus Kizaru, but Goro Goro versus Pika Pika devils fruit. Which is not the same.

Both them are not FAST, remember that Luffy caught Enel with HIS speed when He still did not learned Soru. I'll assume also that your speed increase with your practice, so it's safe to assume that there is still a gap between speed in which Kizaru has the advantage.

Also, we have never seen Kizaru true speed, since He seems to travels faster than anyone (Shabondy proved that)

 

[hyper_megaman]

Thing is that it then wouldn't be a fight between Enel versus Kizaru, but Goro Goro versus Pika Pika devils fruit. Which is not the same.

Both them are not FAST, remember that Luffy caught Enel with HIS speed when He still did not learned Soru. I'll assume also that your speed increase with your practice, so it's safe to assume that there is still a gap between speed in which Kizaru has the advantage.

Also, we have never seen Kizaru true speed, since He seems to travels faster than anyone (Shabondy proved that)

it's not purely fruit v fruit though


if u think about it, an athletic person with the pika pika and another with the goro goro would be waaay different from two rokushiki superhumans with each

in the first sense, pika and goro would be the main difference, then it comes down to fruit weaknesses

in the second sense, you have rokushiki, coa coming into play. like u said, luffy caught up easily with goro without using soru. i'm pretty sure soru is gonna be better to use in such a rapid fight. the bottleneck here would be their human reaction speeds. it's like giving 2 guys fast cars. no matter how fast the car, how much the guys train, the cars will always be limited by their users' reaction times.

so i reckon it comes back down to AoE capabilities. though both of them seem to be limited to single bolts, enel is capable of shooting out variations of bolts and spamming bolts, while there is nothing to suggest kizaru can do anything beyond his lasers

enel is more likely to hit in that sense, and his COO would help in his hiding (2 soru users would be able to hide from each other pretty easily)

 

[Kazu-Sama]

The Admiral wins this. WIthout Haki, it would be a lot closer. But Enel has shown no knowledge of Haki (or anything outside his own little world) whereas his opponent can use it. So it's one-sided

 

[kulugo]

enel have haki, they call it mantra.

the battle i see would be, enel using he's long range haki predicting kizaru's movement while kizaru moves at super speed. enel would be dodging a lot.

 

[Uriel]

it's not purely fruit v fruit though

Which was my point. o.O

so i reckon it comes back down to AoE capabilities. though both of them seem to be limited to single bolts, enel is capable of shooting out variations of bolts and spamming bolts, while there is nothing to suggest kizaru can do anything beyond his lasers. enel is more likely to hit in that sense, and his COO would help in his hiding (2 soru users would be able to hide from each other pretty easily)

In in this regard, we disagree. It's not AoE since they're both Logia, which means that closed fight is the only way of dealing each other. If we remember, Logia can turn into the element, a great way to avoid AoE damage (And the most effective) so everything reduces to fighting ability and experience. In which Kizaru has the upper hand.