Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

Jack Van Burace

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@ Uriel: I suppose Zeno's dragon doesn't require Conjuration, aura can push things without being solid, like Gon's Rock and Paper do. Franklin's Nen bullets likely pierce objects without the need of Materialization, so I suppose one could stand on Zeno's dragon just for the sake of it.
 

Tombadgerlock

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@ Uriel: I suppose Zeno's dragon doesn't require Conjuration, aura can push things without being solid, like Gon's Rock and Paper do. Franklin's Nen bullets likely pierce objects without the need of Materialization, so I suppose one could stand on Zeno's dragon just for the sake of it.
There is a difference between 'damage' and solid. They aren't always mutual, and in the case of nen, we know you can walk through it. It's more 'heavy' than anything.
 

Uriel

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@ Uriel: I suppose Zeno's dragon doesn't require Conjuration, aura can push things without being solid, like Gon's Rock and Paper do. Franklin's Nen bullets likely pierce objects without the need of Materialization, so I suppose one could stand on Zeno's dragon just for the sake of it.
Thing is that Killua wouldn't be able to decipher the dragon shapeand just know that his grandpa makes something powerful. He knew it was a dragon, so Materialization IS a clear part of Zeno's Technique.
 

kkck

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To be honest I get the impression killua knowing zeno's technique was more of a mistake rather than proof that it was materialized. When killua was at that tower with gon fighting for money, he made it perfectly clear he was utterly ignorant of nen. He knew there was a force to what illumi did but he never had a clue as to what it was. If he had actually seen the dragon materialized in mid air he would have at least guessed his grandpa was capable of some sort of magic at least, he could not have possibly been ignorant of nen or at least some magic in that case. Seriously, how would it make sense for kilua to see his grandfather create 1, let alone thousands, of dragons and not know about the existence of nen? This could possibly be the one and only plot hole in the series. In any case, zeno's dragons don't look very material for them to be materialized. They seem to be made of nen rather than being real creatures. In fact, when we see zeno using it against kuroro it does not even seem different from his aura.
 

NoFreakingWay

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'Scuse me for butting in but I agree with kkck. The dragons are a clear part of his aura.

http://www.mangareader.net/207-14280-4/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-271.html

If anything the Dragon projectiles are Emitted Transformation Aura than Materialization.

If we're talking about form:

Transformation < Emission < Materialization.

If the dragons were Materialized they'd look sharper, like Kurapika's chains.

These 'dragons' are fuzzy-looking and are worse-looking than Razor's puppets. Looks like they're only aura molded into a dragon-like shape.
 

Uriel

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I actually was thinking on a technique based on
Emission > Manipulation > Materialization.

Why Transformation would be up in the mix? >_>

---------- Post added at 02:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 AM ----------

BTW, I knew Senritsu was Emission. :D
 

kkck

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Remember the numbers bisk made of nen? The dragon is pretty much like that. Giving form to nen always requires some level of transformation. Basically, zeno gives the shape of a dragon to his aura (transformation) then he releases it from his body (emission) and controls it as he wants (manipulation). The technique seems simple but in reality is pretty complicated. Materialization would actually altogether remove emission from the equation as the dragon would be an independent creature which could sustain itself. Anyways, the dragon is too clearly part of zeno's aura.
 

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Materialization removing Emission from the equation is iffy. It *should*, because it becomes a physical construct, but OTOH, it can still be recognized as 'made from nen', so it's one of those points we don't really know.

Also, manipulation isn't needed to control Aura- it's needed to control physical things.
 

Uriel

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BTW, I understand the point about Zeno dragon but it's very likely then that there is a plothole. The same as the revission of Genei Ryodan Strength after ants :P
Also, manipulation isn't needed to control Aura- it's needed to control physical things.
Hmmm, I think there was somewhere in the manga in which it's explained that it's to control everything.


(BTW, it's Transformation what Biscuit uses to give the shape to the numbers? I always thought it was Materialization)
 

Tombadgerlock

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BTW, I understand the point about Zeno dragon but it's very likely then that there is a plothole. The same as the revission of Genei Ryodan Strength after ants :P

Hmmm, I think there was somewhere in the manga in which it's explained that it's to control everything.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090327182127/hunterxhunter/images/4/42/Chart.jpg Only material things, not aura.
(BTW, it's Transformation what Biscuit uses to give the shape to the numbers? I always thought it was Materialization)
It's transformation. She flat out says 'transformation exercise, level one'. You see it when Killua is out of greed island, the couple of chapters where nen-eraser comes and say hi.
 

kkck

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BTW, I understand the point about Zeno dragon but it's very likely then that there is a plothole. The same as the revission of Genei Ryodan Strength after ants :P

Hmmm, I think there was somewhere in the manga in which it's explained that it's to control everything.


(BTW, it's Transformation what Biscuit uses to give the shape to the numbers? I always thought it was Materialization)
Nah, that was definitely transmutation. It was specifically called transmutation training. Kurapica was the one who described how he materialized his chains and it really had little to do with actual nen training lol.

There was a revision of the strength of the ginei ryodan? Not sure what you are talking about.
 

Uriel

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Oh, I saw it. Then it's right, it's Transformation before than Materialization.
There was a revision of the strength of the ginei ryodan? Not sure what you are talking about.
They were somewhat "defeated" or equaled by rookies in their arc. The fight against the ants was to adjust their level as high leveled fighters. Even if it's subtle, they acted a bit rookish about Nen and that couldn't substain if they're doing this for long. The best example was Kuroro and Gyo warnings, Zetsu completely fooling them and even if they fighting power are not as good they should have reacted instantly with Ten when the light went off the time Kuroro got captured.

They made newbie mistakes in Nen World and that was proved lately with Biscuit and basic Nen fights teachings. So when the ants were introduced, Togashi did a revision in which they show they're not newbies and just had memory loss xD
 

Phantron

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Kurapika was never a rookie. The Spiders always considered him a credible threat that requires multiple people to take down after he defeated Ubogin. When Kuroro was captured, the Spiders said that Kurapika has another pro Hunter (Senretsu) as ally so they can't just chase after him with 2 or 3 guys and need to wait for the rest of the team to get there.

Regarding the mistake regarding In, I'd say the Spiders are the victim of In being phased out as a viable battle tactic. Up until this point, we see the being able to counter In seems like a pretty big deal, but this is a dead end because In is way too strong. Imagine a hypothetical Spiders versus Razor arc involving In, it could go like this:

Kuroro: "Everyone watch out, this guy is strong!"
someone's face blows up
Phinks: "What's going on?"
Kuroro: "I figured it out! He's using In on his projectiles!"

As ridiculous as this scene is, it'd be a perfectly possible scenario if In cannot be trivially countered. Then you got to ask the question how does anyone even survive their first battle to the death against anyone with some Emission/Materialize abilities, let alone reach the notoriety level of the Spiders.
 

Uriel

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Errr. Broken ribs from a kick. From a rookie. From Gon. They're more than pro's. Say whatever you want, but even Kurapika was a rookie regarding Nen. Even if He's smart enough to overcome that distance. Genei Ryodan made newbie mistakes, revised later to avoid misunderstandings.
 

Phantron

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Errr. Broken ribs from a kick. From a rookie. From Gon. They're more than pro's. Say whatever you want, but even Kurapika was a rookie regarding Nen. Even if He's smart enough to overcome that distance. Genei Ryodan made newbie mistakes, revised later to avoid misunderstandings.
Just because you're a pro doesn't mean getting kicked in the ribs won't break it. Pakunoda was physically weaker than Gon to begin with (she's below Shizuku in arm wrestling).

Kurapika was never treated as a newbie by anybody. Why would Hisoka count on a newbie to help him get Kuroro solo? Hisoka is well aware that if his betrayal was caught then it's pretty much certain death (if he can even put up a fight against rest of the Spiders at once he would never need help to get Kuroro solo). Sure Hisoka probably doesn't care much for his safety, but you think he's going to just risk his life on a random newbie? He was willing to kill Killua to preserve his cover, but he's going to risk his life for another similar newbie?
 

Uriel

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Just because you're a pro doesn't mean getting kicked in the ribs won't break it. Pakunoda was physically weaker than Gon to begin with (she's below Shizuku in arm wrestling).

Kurapika was never treated as a newbie by anybody. Why would Hisoka count on a newbie to help him get Kuroro solo? Hisoka is well aware that if his betrayal was caught then it's pretty much certain death (if he can even put up a fight against rest of the Spiders at once he would never need help to get Kuroro solo). Sure Hisoka probably doesn't care much for his safety, but you think he's going to just risk his life on a random newbie? He was willing to kill Killua to preserve his cover, but he's going to risk his life for another similar newbie?
Protect your body with Ten. :/ Gon did not used Nen in that kick. And Hisoka counted on the hatred, which is different.
And that doesn't hide the fact that they DID newbie mistakes. (Indicated above)

Anyway, we're getting offtopic.
 

Jack Van Burace

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Guys, this might be late into the discussion already, but I don't think Ubo made a newbie mistake, I think he was led towards making a mistake. When Kurapica mentions he makes it seem like he's a manipulator, that implies no Gyo will be needed as the chain is a real one being manipulated, and all Nen will be required to deal with it. In other words, what you get is what you see, so why bother with In? It's not like a manipulator will throw Nen bullets or conjure anything, it's not their ability.

Whenever Kurapica convinced Ubo he was a manipulator, that's when he won that fight. Otherwise Ubo would have noticed the chain in In and all his plans would have gone down the drain. It was a necessary part of the plan in order to trick Ubo into overlooking In.
 

kkck

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Pakunoda was a non fighting member of the ryodan, I don't think that really was a newbie mistake. Its not like gon did not break illumi's arm before too (illumi certainly did not use nen though). I don't think the ryodan not being flawless in their actions means they made newby mistakes.

Also, what does their reaction when the lights went off have to do with anything? Its not like they were actually attacked and taken down. They had physics against them (their eyes one way or another needed a second to get used to the dark) and kurapika's chain would have neutralized all nen. And zetsu is supposed to fool people, there is not reason for it otherwise. Gon and killua should be considered pros at that much at least, heck, gon was able to fool hisoka without even using zetsu (and the guy is able to detect the presence of someone under a perfect zetsu).
 

Phantron

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Guys, this might be late into the discussion already, but I don't think Ubo made a newbie mistake, I think he was led towards making a mistake. When Kurapica mentions he makes it seem like he's a manipulator, that implies no Gyo will be needed as the chain is a real one being manipulated, and all Nen will be required to deal with it. In other words, what you get is what you see, so why bother with In? It's not like a manipulator will throw Nen bullets or conjure anything, it's not their ability.

Whenever Kurapica convinced Ubo he was a manipulator, that's when he won that fight. Otherwise Ubo would have noticed the chain in In and all his plans would have gone down the drain. It was a necessary part of the plan in order to trick Ubo into overlooking In.
That's the official explanation which make sense until you realize every Emission technique can be hidden by In as well.

If people aren't used dealing with In, you'd literally die the first time you face against anyone who has decent Emission attacks that knows how to use In. It'd be common to see random guys have their face blown off by Emission + In combos. So if you managed to survive even a couple of to-the-death battle, you should have Gyo on permanently just to deal with Emission. By the way, Manipulate is only one school away from Emission. Pufu is shown to be capable of using very powerful aura blast attacks. So even though everything Kurapika said about pretending to Manipulate make sense, it wouldn't have mattered because anyone who managed to survive even one fight in HXH would've realized you got to know how to deal with In or you'd immediately die to any Emission techniques.

Ubogin's problem is because he was the last guy who participated in a fight before In got phased out as a valid tactic.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------

Pakunoda was a non fighting member of the ryodan, I don't think that really was a newbie mistake. Its not like gon did not break illumi's arm before too (illumi certainly did not use nen though). I don't think the ryodan not being flawless in their actions means they made newby mistakes.

Also, what does their reaction when the lights went off have to do with anything? Its not like they were actually attacked and taken down. They had physics against them (their eyes one way or another needed a second to get used to the dark) and kurapika's chain would have neutralized all nen. And zetsu is supposed to fool people, there is not reason for it otherwise. Gon and killua should be considered pros at that much at least, heck, gon was able to fool hisoka without even using zetsu (and the guy is able to detect the presence of someone under a perfect zetsu).
Zetsu is comparable to being really sneaky, just like having extremely good perception is comparable to using En (Hisoka detected Kalluto using Zetsu with just his senses alone).

As an aside, Machi's defense in the dark shows a lot of skill. She guarded her head because that's more vulnerable than say, her heart, which is protected by a layer of muscle. Although the Spiders may be battle-tested, there's no reason why they shouldn't panic for at least a moment when they're basically completely blinded. I see no reason why they'd be imprevious to attacks from Gon or Killua at that point, and the fact that they only broke a few ribs while totally surprised should be viewed as a plus, not a minus.

Kurapika estimated that it takes at least 1 second for the Spiders to get used to the darkness, and that's actually a very long time in HXH so it's reasonable to expect them to take significant damage in this period.
 
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