Discussion Who is stronger than Luffy?

[Azuma]

Young? If I'm not mistaken he is 36 years old... So I don't know if he can be called young. In my opinion he should be middle-aged at least.

A 36 year old is somewhat young in my eyes.

 

[Ninomiya]

There is a reason why there is no young VA… Marine is an organisation and joining it is followed by giving a certain rank (cadet for youngsters I guess) and then training…. In training they are trained in an organised way from 1 level to another… and there is no jumps… like we do in school… And that kind of things are not applicable for pirate .. they can train however and whatever pace they want to .. they are not limited by laws of any organisation… no boundations…

No.
There ARE Jumps.
Coby has jumped ranks.
As far as we know, Smoker went from Commodore to Vice Admiral since there was no mention of him being a Rear Admiral.
Helmeppo skipped 3-4 ranks to get to his current rank of Lieutenant Commander.
Actually the names of the ranks you start are either Chore Boy- 19th rank.
Or Seaman Recruit - 18th rank.

No one is saying that young people can equate to middle aged younkous or admirals… The point was that the young pirates exist who are stronger than Vice admirals who are middle aged or old… that means pirates growth is faster than marines…

But this isn't a point. His point was also that VA's were weak. Something that isn't true.

In this series, the strongest people are the middle-aged and the elderly. Fact.
While its true the Youth have a faster growth rate, that's common sense since that's how life works. Even with this fast growth rate, there is no youth who can stand a chance against those known as the strongest in the series.
A Young VA who has a fast rate of growth makes no impact on the issue of VA's being weak.

Considering Issho may have had the rank of VA prior to being Admiral, or he was a Marine who was far too strong for the rank of VA and just had his own specific rank outside of the Rank system like Inspector or Instructor like Sengoku and Zephyr.

A 36 year old is somewhat young in my eyes.

Smoker is very close in age to Red-Haired Shanks. only 3 years separate them iirc.

Young is Luffy. Like I said, 19 years and 20 years old cannot be in the same category as 36.
Nowhere in the world are 36 year olds viewed as the youth of the nation.
36 is much more middle aged than "young".

In Soccer, Basketball and most Sports, 36 is a retirement age. It isn't young.

 

[Azuma]

There's a difference between somewhat young and young. You simply chose to ignore 'somewhat'. Someone that's younger than 30 is young. A 35-36 year old is somewhat young. It's because you're 'only' 17 years old that you see 36 as middle-aged. I can understand that.

 

[Tonix]

No.
There ARE Jumps.
Coby has jumped ranks.
As far as we know, Smoker went from Commodore to Vice Admiral since there was no mention of him being a Rear Admiral.
Helmeppo skipped 3-4 ranks to get to his current rank of Lieutenant Commander.
Actually the names of the ranks you start are either Chore Boy- 19th rank.
Or Seaman Recruit - 18th rank.



Considering Issho may have had the rank of VA prior to being Admiral, or he was a Marine who was far too strong for the rank of VA and just had his own specific rank outside of the Rank system like Inspector or Instructor like Sengoku and Zephyr.

Do we have proof that Coby and Helmeppo actually 'jumped' ranks, instead of them just being promoted while the story was focused on the Straw Hats?

And the bold part seems like something you pulled out of... someplace smelly... when you remember that Garp (who fought with Roger) was never considered 'too strong' for VA rank. I liked all the other stuff you said though

 

[Ninomiya]

There's a difference between somewhat young and young. You simply chose to ignore 'somewhat'. Someone that's younger than 30 is young. A 35-36 year old is somewhat young. It's because you're 'only' 17 years old that you see 36 as middle-aged. I can understand that.

No. Don't bring a condescending attitude since my age has nothing to do with what I've said.
There is somewhat young, and there is "in your youth".

When I say "Youth", it includes 26 year old Law, 23 year old Kid, 27 year old Killer,

In what country is somebody at the age of 36 grouped together with part of the youth?
Cut the 35-36 crap since he is 36, 36 just isn't what people call youth.

The term youth generally describes those between 16-24 but commonly extends to early 30s.
36 isn't early 30s.
Your idea of "somewhat" young is like you say, only in your eyes.
In sport the common retirement age is around 36 too.

Bottom line, Smoker isn't really in his Youth anymore.
Your argument is invalid since Franky is the same age as Smoker and has been refered to as uncle in the series and is noted to not be particularly young.

And the bold part seems like something you pulled out of... someplace smelly... when you remember that Garp (who fought with Roger) was never considered 'too strong' for VA rank. I liked all the other stuff you said though

Considering we have no mention of Issho being a VA, I didn't pull anything out of the place you're referring to
Its a fact we don't know what rank Issho had before becoming an Admiral so it was a fair statement hahaha.

Do we have proof that Coby and Helmeppo actually 'jumped' ranks, instead of them just being promoted while the story was focused on the Straw Hats?

Well... see this.
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Vice_Admiral#Chore_Boy

They did a jump early on the series.

 

[Schabrak]

There's a difference between somewhat young and young. You simply chose to ignore 'somewhat'. Someone that's younger than 30 is young. A 35-36 year old is somewhat young. It's because you're 'only' 17 years old that you see 36 as middle-aged. I can understand that.

Seems to be the median age for a big part of the world, let's stop this ridiculous discussion, as there is nothing to discuss. 36 is not young by every standard exclusing immortals, which do not exist. With 36 many people have their kids in high school already, can hardly be called young.

 

[Azuma]

Seems to be the median age for a big part of the world, let's stop this ridiculous discussion, as there is nothing to discuss. 36 is not young by every standard exclusing immortals, which do not exist. With 36 many people have their kids in high school already, can hardly be called young.

I'd still consider them somewhat young. I know a handful of 30 year olds and neither of them would consider themselves to be middle-aged. Why do you care so much about it anyway? Kizaru is like 56 years old and still considered middle-aged.

 

[Schabrak]

I'm not worked up, I'm just giving you a portion of reality. Look at the median age of african countries? There, you are old as fuck with 40. 36 is just not young anymore, it doesn't matter what your colleagues like to think in that regard. By their definition and your opinion maybe, but not in OP and neither one earth excluding a couple first world countries like japan, german, sweden etc. With 36 many people will have lived half their life's, have spend as much time as an adult as a child, how can that be young?

Wikipedia on middle age :

According to Collins Dictionary, this is "... usually considered to occur approximately between the ages of 40 and 60".[1] The current edition of the Oxford English Dictionary gives a similar definition but with a shorter span: "The period of life between young adulthood and old age, now usually regarded as between about forty-five and sixty." The US Census lists middle age as including both the age categories 35 to 44 and 45 to 54, while prominent psychologist Erik Erikson saw it ending a little later and defines middle adulthood as between 40 and 65. TheDiagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the standard diagnostic manual of theAmerican Psychiatric Association, used to define middle age as 40–60, but as of Edition IV (1994) revised the definition upwards to 45–65.

 

[zelllogan]

Launching a two-pages discussion just by telling "give me a young VA", I'm the master troll.

 

[kkck]

kkck

Spoiler

Well, when we last saw Coby (before timeskip) he was even more useless than any of weak Trio from Mugivaras, so I seriously doubt that after just two years he would grow tha much.
When I learned about Coby's new rank I was actually surprised, since I believe it's too much for him. I seriously doubt he is stronger than minimum Captain.

You have to considering that coby and helmepo have been trained by garp though. That is just about the same situation as luffy being trained by Rayleigh or Zoro being trained by mihawk. And even in part 1 coby went from being beneath average in terms of strength when compared to a normal human to being someone capable of performing at least zoru and earn a place among the marines fighting at marineford. To put in in perspective perhaps he would not be much of a match for luffy at the time of the war but perhaps he would be able to at least hold his ground against luffy at the start of the manga (who was magnitudes of strength beneath luffy at the time of the war). 2 years under garp and mastery of haki could easily make coby and helmepo into a force worth fearing among the marines. Its unlikey either of them would actually win against luffy but I don't think an scenario where they are not at the bare minimum proficient haki and rokushiki users capable of surviving on their own in the new world makes sense. His growth by the time we last saw him was already ridiculous so to speak, 2 more years worth of that would make them a threat for quite a few strawhats at least.

 

[Ninomiya]

Launching a two-pages discussion just by telling "give me a young VA", I'm the master troll.

You sir, are talented haha.

 

[Jorge D. Dragon]

kkck
Well, until Coby shows more than he showed in one of the last movie (some Soru and some other Rokushiki moves and breaking a metal plate) I can't see him beeing capable of taking down any of the Strawhats, especially after what they showed on Fishman Island and during Punk Hazard Arc. Even anyone from Weak Trio are too much for him individually for now until he actually shows otherwise. Not even talking about stronger members of Mugivara crew. Well Coby and Helmeppo can take down anyone from the Weak Trio, but I also doubt they have any chance against Brook, Franky or Robin after what they showed after timeskip.

P.S. We still have to see one new Admiral and maybe even one or more Vice Admirals, so it might be interesting if another Admiral is the one promoted from previos Vice Admirals or he is a completely new one like Fujitora.

 

[Ninomiya]

kkck
Well, until Coby shows more than he showed in one of the last movie (some Soru and some other Rokushiki moves and breaking a metal plate) I can't see him beeing capable of taking down any of the Strawhats, especially after what they showed on Fishman Island and during Punk Hazard Arc. Even anyone from Weak Trio are too much for him individually for now until he actually shows otherwise. Not even talking about stronger members of Mugivara crew. Well Coby and Helmeppo can take down anyone from the Weak Trio, but I also doubt they have any chance against Brook, Franky or Robin after what they showed after timeskip.

I get your point, but remember Monkey D. Garp quit the Marines Pre time-skip and set up a brand new Marine branch (probably 200+th lol) and was asked to become an instructor entirely for strengthening recruits).

So he would have been giving Coby & Helmeppo 2 years of training with even more focus than the months he had been with them pre-timesip since he had Marine duties.
Considering Coby learned Rokushiki moves in months with Garp, 2 years with a lot of Garp's attention, should result in somebody genuinely strong like even fighting on par with the Luffy that reached Enies Lobby.

P.S. We still have to see one new Admiral and maybe even one or more Vice Admirals, so it might be interesting if another Admiral is the one promoted from previos Vice Admirals or he is a completely new one like Fujitora.

Going by the war, despite Onigumo, Dalmatian and Momonga standing out as extremely strong, considering Issho the new Admiral has immediately appeared as ridiculously strong like the original 3 Admirals, I doubt they will be from the Vice-Admirals that we saw at Marineford but just Marine members we haven't seen yet like you say.

 

[David Rose]

I read this today:

Spoiler

Oda mentioned in a SBS that Shanks could have knocked out all 100,000 pirates and fishmen opposing the Straw Hats during the Fishman Island Arc with his Haoushoku Haki (Luffy managed to overwhelm 50,000).[25]

Well at first it only says, that Shanks Haki has roughly the double power, if not more. But since the King's disposition measures the willpower (or what else you like to call it) it may be Oda's way of telling us that Luffy has about half the strengh of the current Yonkous.

I don't know if this was mentioned before. I just happened to find it today, without double checking. Confirmation would be nice tho :P

 

[Sproumfch]

@David Rose :
Yeah that's a very interesting fact. But remember, you can see Jinbei saying "To think he'd go that far in only two years". Also, we know that's the King Disposition must be trained.
So it all makes sense. Shanks is a maybe 40 years old pirate, using his king's disposition for longer than Luffy has. But I don't see Shanks knocking out 50 000 guys back in his 20th (maybe he could, I don't know).
But I'm not sure it means that Luffy has half the stenght of a Yonkou. Well now the world (us & in OP universe) that Luffy is far weaker than a Yonkou. When 1, then 2, then 3 will get beaten by Luffy, everyone will acknoledge his streng. Let us have this conversation in one year, I think we may know a lot more about King's Disposition and Luffy's strenght.
But I still think that Rubber + Pure Strenght is the key to deliver the strongest fists here.

 

[David Rose]

I actually think that the 50% are some good value. Since Luffy always gets a huge power up during importan fights and he still got a lot fighting to do, before even facing the first Yonkou, his current strengh would still be huge, but leave a comfortable place for improvement.

But I still think that Rubber + Pure Strenght is the key to deliver the strongest fists here.

I really like that concept of Devil Fruits. It shows the power balance throughout the storyline. At first Logias are the most powerful fruits in any possible case. Now, further into the story the balance shifts.
In the end i would bet on parameica fruits, that alter your physical attacks, to be the strongest. Excluding Earthquakes in this matter, Luffy, Bellamy, even Miss Doublefinger have some pretty potent abilities. In a 1v1 match-up everything that boosts your raw physical strengh counts most, if you have a strong Haki.

Zoans are pretty good to, but i would rather consider them midclass, since they do increase your power, but not in an unnatural way like parameicas do. The possible multiplier is not that high in my opinion.

 

[dannyjayes1]

Characters who are still stronger than Luffy: the admirals, the emperors, the emperors's lieutenants, garp, mihawk, rayleigh, marco, kong, sengoku, dragon.

I also do not think that the other supernovas are on par with Luffy, even before the timeskip Luffy was already stronger than all of them and the only reason why Kidd
had a slightly higher bounty than him was because he was hurting civilians, and while they were splitting their time between training and exploring the new world
luffy was focusing all of his attention on training so the obvious conclusion is that luffy is stronger than the supernovas by quite a margin, not that they are weak.
The same thing is valid for Smoker, he was only beating Luffy because the later was unable to land a hit on his logia body, but now not only did he gain the ability
to hit logia users he also improved his devil fruits powers and gained haki of observation, luffy is definitely stronger than Smoker.
Lucci and Luffy were almost on par before the timeskip but now it's clear that Luffy is much stronger than him, you can't except every person that luffy has fought
in the past to have the same growth rate as he does otherwise everyone will become admiral-level by the end of the serie
Ivankov is also not stronger than luffy, we've seen his fight with Magellan and he didn't really have more luck than luffy did, they were probably on the same level back then, now luffy is stronger.
Also the emperors are do not hold that title just because they have large territories and soldiers, it's also because they are exceedinly powerful, look at Shanks, Whitebeard, Blackbeard
you can't expect the soldiers, especially pirates to follow someone who is weaker than the are, and we all know that in OP massive numbers of fighters isn't what determines
the outcome of a battle, it's the strength of the top fighters, the strawhats vs the fishermen is a good example of how 10 people defeated an entire army and it wasn't that hard for them to do so,
and the argument that in the NW the pirates are stronger than the ones in the first part of the grand line isn't valid, we've all seen these pirates fight in the war of the best, besides their captains who were
probably each on par with a vice admiral(remember that before the timeskip luffy could defeat multiple vice admirals by himself) they weren't that strong, and i know that the pirates that were present
were only a few crews of all the ones in the NW but it was explicitly said that they were veterans of the NW, they still lost consciousness to Luffy's haki even before
he gained control over it so my guess is, in the NW there is more top tiers pirates but the foot soldiers level is still not high enough to pose a threat.

The admirals are not stronger than luffy. Luffy can probably beat them if he goes all out. Otherwise they are probably equal. The proof for that is from the movie "Z" In this movie he figthts an guy stronger than the admirals, or at least equal with them. He does not beat the guy, but does not lose to the guy. and that is because he got a lot of his power drained when destroying the guys weapon that contains sea stone. Meaning if he fought that guy and won, he can beat admirals, but not the fleet admiral.
Now, the emperors are unknown. We have not seen any of them fight except for whitebeard, but he was called the strongest man in the world. So this is unknown. But from the looks of it now, in this saga he is going to fight "Big mama" and from how we know one piece he will probably win, but will be at the verge of death.
The emperors lieutendants are not as strong as luffy. It would not make sense for the saga to be about defeating big mam, if he even cant defeat her lieutendants. but the other emperors are probably stronger than luffy.
Mihawk is kinda unknown, but from the battle vs the navy, when you see him fighting luffy, so luffy was could fight bak, and hurt him. When you look at pre-timeskip strawhats, it took all of them to damage the pacifista a bit. After the timeskip, luffy defeated one with one punch. If you look at that, luffy can probably defeat mihawk, but it would be a close call.
The rest of the people you listed are stronger than luffy.

 

[Uriel]

Movies are not canon and older guys tend to drop in power so comparison if it's not actual can't be measurable and reliable.

IMHO.

 

[desin24]

The admirals are not stronger than luffy. Luffy can probably beat them if he goes all out. Otherwise they are probably equal. The proof for that is from the movie "Z" In this movie he figthts an guy stronger than the admirals, or at least equal with them. He does not beat the guy, but does not lose to the guy. and that is because he got a lot of his power drained when destroying the guys weapon that contains sea stone. Meaning if he fought that guy and won, he can beat admirals, but not the fleet admiral.
Now, the emperors are unknown. We have not seen any of them fight except for whitebeard, but he was called the strongest man in the world. So this is unknown. But from the looks of it now, in this saga he is going to fight "Big mama" and from how we know one piece he will probably win, but will be at the verge of death.
The emperors lieutendants are not as strong as luffy. It would not make sense for the saga to be about defeating big mam, if he even cant defeat her lieutendants. but the other emperors are probably stronger than luffy.
Mihawk is kinda unknown, but from the battle vs the navy, when you see him fighting luffy, so luffy was could fight bak, and hurt him. When you look at pre-timeskip strawhats, it took all of them to damage the pacifista a bit. After the timeskip, luffy defeated one with one punch. If you look at that, luffy can probably defeat mihawk, but it would be a close call.
The rest of the people you listed are stronger than luffy.

The current admirals would wreck a Zephyr far past his prime. He wasn't just old but sick too. Not even to mention that the movie isn't even canon.
Luffy defeating Mihawk? Best swordsman+Sharpest Sword vs A rubber man whose Haki couldn't protect him from Hody's bite?
Luffy currently facing a more powerful enemy than himself for the first time since the timeskip. The time-skip would have killed most of his growth, powerwise,if Luffy was on Admiral tier already(which in my eyes is the highest tier)

 

[Oathencrantz]

Magellan (he's about the same level as the Admirals imo, he's right up there)
Garp and Sengoku the Funky Buddha
ALL the Admirals obviously
Doflamingo, Mihawk, Kuma, and I still think Crocodile is stronger (2-1 in Croco-boy's favour)
Jozu and Marco
Shanks and Rayleigh
Blackbeard
Vergo maybe?
Pekoms seems like he would be hell to fight

2 years of SOLID ass training (excellent training at that) in preparation for the Grand Line and New World doesn't suddenly make you stronger than people who have been top tier or near enough, since before you were born imho.