Discussion Ryodan's strength

mousiehamster

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I think there are only four conclusions that could be drawn from the Chrollo v Zeno/Silva fight. Since the only way to defeat Chrollo was to sacrifice Zeno, it follows that:

1.) Chrollo is close to being equal to Zeno and Silva in overall fighting prowess.
2.) Chrollo is not close to being equal to Zeno and/or Silva but fighting defensively in HxH is far easier than fighting offensively i.e. by not exposing yourself, you can hold off for a long period of time against superior opponents.
3.) It was a bluff to prevent Chrollo from being too aggressive in his counterattacks.
4.) Togashi fucked up.
 

Phantron

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I think there are only four conclusions that could be drawn from the Chrollo v Zeno/Silva fight. Since the only way to defeat Chrollo was to sacrifice Zeno, it follows that:

1.) Chrollo is close to being equal to Zeno and Silva in overall fighting prowess.
2.) Chrollo is not close to being equal to Zeno and/or Silva but fighting defensively in HxH is far easier than fighting offensively i.e. by not exposing yourself, you can hold off for a long period of time against superior opponents.
3.) It was a bluff to prevent Chrollo from being too aggressive in his counterattacks.
4.) Togashi fucked up.
Of course it's easy to fight defensively in HXH. Otherwise why would you need to even train yourself to have Ken that lasts 3 hours? Even someone like Gon, who is said to be terribly inefficient, can last about 1/10 the time in actual combat compared to training, so he'd have enough aura to last 18 minutes defensively. Obviously anyone who is actually well trained can get close to their practice time in actual combat. Biscuit said that two guys of comparable strength both using just Ken is pretty much a guaranteed stalemate. If you're the stronger guy you have no reason to use your special moves first because you'll eventually wear the other guy down so no need to expose yourself. But even if you're the weaker guy, using your special move is risky and you usually want to hope for a better opportunity. It certainly isn't smart for the weaker guy to simply use his special move immediately.

So if people actually fought the way they're supposed to, fighting in HXH would be very boring as you'd just have people use Ken and beat on each other for 2 hours until the loser finally makes a move. Pretty much all fights in HXH have just the 'two guys use Ken and beat on each other for a long time' completely cut out since nobody would possibly be interested in that stuff. In light of the fact that Ilumi has a competing contract and other Spiders are presumably scattered in the city, taking an hour or two to slowly chip down Kuroro's health safely is simply not an option for Silva and Zeno.
 

mousiehamster

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Of course it's easy to fight defensively in HXH. Otherwise why would you need to even train yourself to have Ken that lasts 3 hours? Even someone like Gon, who is said to be terribly inefficient, can last about 1/10 the time in actual combat compared to training, so he'd have enough aura to last 18 minutes defensively. Obviously anyone who is actually well trained can get close to their practice time in actual combat. Biscuit said that two guys of comparable strength both using just Ken is pretty much a guaranteed stalemate. If you're the stronger guy you have no reason to use your special moves first because you'll eventually wear the other guy down so no need to expose yourself. But even if you're the weaker guy, using your special move is risky and you usually want to hope for a better opportunity. It certainly isn't smart for the weaker guy to simply use his special move immediately.
Keeping up your Ken is nice and all but surely that would be a bad idea against two master assassins, one of which is reinforcement while you yourself is conjuration-specialization? Thing is Chrollo dodged attacks from both guys so aura wasn't even in the equation; and he tanked a punch from Silva as well as a nen blast from Zeno (from the back!). So this defensive / evasive fighting style somehow allowed him to stave off the Zs (for a while anyway).

So if people actually fought the way they're supposed to, fighting in HXH would be very boring as you'd just have people use Ken and beat on each other for 2 hours until the loser finally makes a move. Pretty much all fights in HXH have just the 'two guys use Ken and beat on each other for a long time' completely cut out since nobody would possibly be interested in that stuff. In light of the fact that Ilumi has a competing contract and other Spiders are presumably scattered in the city, taking an hour or two to slowly chip down Kuroro's health safely is simply not an option for Silva and Zeno.
Is it correct to say that they are competing contracts? They are competing against each other's time not because of any inherent condition in the contract itself but because the completion of one contract would prevent the receipt of payment of another. So if these guys are just fulfilling mutually exclusive contracts as a matter of principle, then they may just be performing them without taking into account the obviating factor (completion of one = breach of the other). This is in contrast to a true competing contract where the Z's were simultaneously hired to protect and assassinate the same target, they would take each other's conduct into account. Or maybe i'm just thinking too much.
 

Phantron

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Keeping up your Ken is nice and all but surely that would be a bad idea against two master assassins, one of which is reinforcement while you yourself is conjuration-specialization? Thing is Chrollo dodged attacks from both guys so aura wasn't even in the equation; and he tanked a punch from Silva as well as a nen blast from Zeno (from the back!). So this defensive / evasive fighting style somehow allowed him to stave off the Zs (for a while anyway).



Is it correct to say that they are competing contracts? They are competing against each other's time not because of any inherent condition in the contract itself but because the completion of one contract would prevent the receipt of payment of another. So if these guys are just fulfilling mutually exclusive contracts as a matter of principle, then they may just be performing them without taking into account the obviating factor (completion of one = breach of the other). This is in contrast to a true competing contract where the Z's were simultaneously hired to protect and assassinate the same target, they would take each other's conduct into account. Or maybe i'm just thinking too much.
Ken guards everywhere, so why wouldn't you use it if you're stalling for time? The amount of time you can use Ken is basically an upper bound of how long you can fight defensively in a fight since once Ken runs out you're obviously not going to be able to defend anymore meaningfully. As we can see in the later chapters that is a very long time. Another way to think about it is that Knuckles needs around 4 minutes for Gon to go bankrupt. If fights normally end in 4 minutes then there's really no point to have this ability (he certainly can avoid attacks for 4 minutes). I mean, the whole point of Ken is that it's the best defense against unexpected attacks because it guards everywhere, so getting hit from behind generally implies you have Ken up, or you'd likely be knocked out from that blow.

I'd think Zeno and Silva have some pride in that they don't want to just take their time and say, "Oops took too long guess we're going home". You can also argue that since other Spiders are around, perhaps taking a long time would've made things even more dangerous since any additional Spider arriving could've significantly altered the outcome. Although we often see Zeno and Silva whining about how this job doesn't pay enough, you can be pretty sure they always do whatever it takes to finish the job even if they're not paid enough (the only exception is if they're being paid nothing because the guy who hired them is dead). If they didn't do that, their family wouldn't be nearly as feared as they are right now.
 

yangsoon

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Then that mean Kuroro know he have no chance of winning vs those 2, so he hired their family to killed off the one who hired those 2, hmmm good thinking
 

Phantron

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Then that mean Kuroro know he have no chance of winning vs those 2, so he hired their family to killed off the one who hired those 2, hmmm good thinking
I'm guessing Ilumi likely tipped him off the fact since Ilumi has connections with Kuroro, not to mention that means more money for him. There's no way Kuroro can know this will work for sure, because he doesn't know what kind of people Silva and Zeno are. But his alternatives would be either flee from Yorknew (which would be rather embarrassing), or gather all the Spiders to try to confront Silva and Zeno. In that case, the likely outcome would be Silva and Zeno dies (they won't run away either because otherwise their family's reputation gets trashed), but takes out 5 or so of the weaker guys before dying since they are, after all, significantly stronger than the average Spider (Silva killed one of them before and Spiders never contemplated revenge against him). On the other hand if Kuroro dies along with Zeno, it's reasonable to expect the rest of the Spiders to be able to eventually fend off Silva given their significant number superiority. Since Kuroro does not value his life as more valuable than the rest of the members, it makes sense for him to sacrifice himself to stop the threat as opposed to sacrificing multiple weaker members to protect himself.

I notice that because the fearless guys are usually backed up by plot immunity this seems to make them seem smarter than they really are. Kuroro himself was surprised that Zeno chose to not kill him. Hisoka can obviously take any risk he wants and he's still never going to get killed by anyone just due to his status in the story. Gon probably tops both of them with his share of death-defying feats. That doesn't mean they're omniscient or even necessarily super smart. If Zeno and Silva's personality are more like Ilumi (and that's a perfectly reasonable assumption) Kuroro would've definitely died since Ilumi is fairly bloodthiristy and nothing like Zeno, who has never killed anyone without getting paid. Of course Kuroro's thought process is quite reasonable and probably the best decision he could've made given what he knows. Contrast that with Gon who tried to chase a bunch of ruthless murderers (Spiders), get captured, and miraculously gets out unharmed. While both are backed by plot immunity, Kuroro acts as if he doesn't really have plot immunity, while someone like Gon always have Togashi on the hotline telling him that it's totally safe to charge after a bunch of super powerful guys without any plan whatsoever because Togashi has his back.
 
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Django

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In that case, the likely outcome would be Silva and Zeno dies (they won't run away either because otherwise their family's reputation gets trashed), but takes out 5 or so of the weaker guys before dying since they are, after all, significantly stronger than the average Spider (Silva killed one of them before and Spiders never contemplated revenge against him). On the other hand if Kuroro dies along with Zeno, it's reasonable to expect the rest of the Spiders to be able to eventually fend off Silva given their significant number superiority. Since Kuroro does not value his life as more valuable than the rest of the members, it makes sense for him to sacrifice himself to stop the threat as opposed to sacrificing multiple weaker members to protect himself.
No, the likely outcome would have been : Silva and Zeno die, the Spiders go back at the hideout and celebrate. I mean, if Silva and Zeno have trouble with Chrollo alone (they definitely were winning, but it was no easy fight), how the hell could they fight Chrollo AND ten other guys without being completely crushed ? Actually, they wouldn't even need everyone : the weaker/"support" members (Korutopi, Shizuku, Pakunoda, Sharnalk) could stay out of it, while Franklin, Phinx, Feitan, Machi and Bonolenov (and Hisoka, if he cares to) take on Silva and Zeno. The Zoldycks would have been utterly destroyed, and there would have been no casualties on the Troupe's side.

When you say Silva killed a member of the Spiders and the others never contemplated revenge, you forget three important things : 1) We know Silva and Zeno fought in the past. It may or may not be Chrollo trying to avenge his fallen comrade. 2) The Spiders value the safety of the group more than avenging one member. Together, the Spiders could easily kill Silva alone, but then they may have to deal with the entire Zoldyck family + all their butlers, which could result in the end of the Spider. 3) Silva said it was no easy task, and instructed his sons never to touch the Troupe. Overall, Silva and Zeno are probably stronger than most Spiders, but they're certainly not leagues above them.
 
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mousiehamster

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Well presumably since it was an assassination the Z's didn't take on everyone. Probably picked one off separately, and i imagine that if they were tasked to take out the Spiders they would use the same strategy if possible. No way they'd go up against all 10 at once.

The disparity between Chrollo's level and the other Spiders is also a question to be resolved. I get the feeling that he's by and far the strongest of the group.
 

Phantron

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The Zs might be assassins but they always have extreme pride. Let's say instead of just Kuroro being in the building, it's all the Spiders just charged in the front. Do you really think Zeno and Silva will be like 'oh no there are 12 of them we better hide until they split up'? No you'd still have the exact scene, i.e. Zeno will say, 'leave this to the professionals'. They may very well die but they're not going to wimp out of their contract. If they're the kind of guys who would back away from just fighting the entire Spiders at the same time, then Zeno must have gone off the deep end to take a mission to fight the Ants who possess 4 guys who are on par if not stronger than Netero, whom Zeno knows can own him pretty much anytime he wanted to. Yes Silva stressed patience and waiting for opportunity, but the contract still takes precedence over everything else. I'm sure when the Mafia called them they let Silva know they're expected to get the job done really fast, not 3 years from now.

Also people overlooked the fact that Zeno had to sacrifice himself is because he knows he cannot figure out Kuroro's ability since his ability is stealing. That means you can't figure out the moves based on Kuroro's personality (because the stolen moves aren't his moves) or school/type, so there's no point to try to second guess him at this point. If you're talking about the standard 1-2 special moves per person scenario, it's clear that Zeno and Silva are both experienced enough to figure out almost immediately what a move's strengths/weaknesses are. Heck, Zeno can figure out how many criterias is needed to trigger the stealing condition. But even as experienced as he is, there's no way he can possibly figure out what abilities Kuroro have already stolen, which is why he didn't bother trying because he's experienced enough to know that it'd be a waste of time. If you're talking about guys with fairly straightforward moves like the rest of the Spiders, it's likely Zeno immediately sees through their weakness. For example against Shalunark he'd definitely notice that he's carrying an antenne and either knock that away or destroy it as fast as possible, and then Shalunark will be useless. Against Phinx he's going to attack as soon as Phinx starts spinning his arms because he'd definitely know that's a charge-type move.

---------- Post added at 01:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------

Actually, the fact that Kuroro faked his death says that the Spiders, as a whole, isn't overwhelming more powerful than the Mafia. Kuroro planned on using the bodies to make the Mafia think they've won, and if the Mafia are no threat to him, why even bother? When Kuroro first told everyone they're going to take all the auction goods and Ubogin says that means they'll have to fight the Mafia of the world, and Kuroro asked if Ubogin was afraid. Now of course no one in the Spiders is afraid, but this implies that it is okay to expect some people have reservation against the 'take everything' approach. Prior to the announcement Machi and Feitan discussed what they'll be stealing this time, with Machi thinking it's books and Feitan thinking it's GI. If they're supposed to be overwhelming more powerful, they wouldn't need to have this discussion because the answer would just be 'take everything'. Machi informed Hisoka that the gathering in Yorknew went from optional to mandatory and basically threatened Hisoka to show up, so we can see that Kuroro is taking this mission rather seriously.

Now ask yourself would the Z family be at all concerned with the Mafia? Zodiac? Ants? Obviously not. While the Spiders skirt the law, these entities are above the law.
 

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Now ask yourself would the Z family be at all concerned with the Mafia? Zodiac? Ants? Obviously not. While the Spiders skirt the law, these entities are above the law.
Now ask yourself : would the Spiders still be around if they were so weak ? The organization was created ten years before the start of the series. During these ten years, they commited many heinous crimes, including genocide. Of course, that should put them in the radar of every single Blacklist Hunter in the world. Yet nobody was able to capture/kill them. They're pretty much above the law. And you can't say "they're so irrelevant that no strong Hunter would waste his time trying to catch them", because in that case, nobody would have hired Silva Zoldyck, one of the world's best assassins, to kill one of them, they would have hired someone cheaper. Said assassination was the only consequence they ever faced (until Kurapika came along of course). Silva said it was no easy job and instructed his sons never to touch the Troupe.

Now, to answer your question : yes, the Zodiacs and the Zoldycks would be concerned with the Mafia. Maybe not overly concerned, but the Spiders weren't overly concerned either. You don't just ignore an organisation as powerful as the Mafia, which can organize an entire undergroud auction and have the police of an entire city in it's pockets. As for the Ants, of course Meruem and the Royal Guards wouldn't be concerned, but they're leagues above everyone else anyway. Less powerful Ants would be concerned (unless they are blinded by their arrogance).

And Chrollo didn't plan the fake bodies scheme because he was afraid of the Mafia. He only left a few bodies, and the Mafia could have tried to track down the rest of them if they had cared to (now, you might argue Chrollo had predicted the Mafia would analyze the bodies, understand they came from Meteor City and decide to leave them alone as a result, but it was no sure thing. The Spiders had killed thousans of mafiosi : the mob bosses might have decided to avenge themselves no matter what). No, he did it because he wanted the Mafia bosses to feel confident and finally start the auction, so as to steal everything.
 

nfinitfx

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In the hunter x hunter world we know- this is where the spiders would rank as an organisation

1. Hunter Association (Mainly because of Jing)
2. Beyond Netoro Organisation
3. Killua's family
4. Spiders 4a. Gon's crew (Next arc- Gon/Killua can fight against or beat weaker members of the spiders as they are now, but would still lose to feitan. Killua can beat his sister/bro that joined spider. Just looked at how he ONE SHOT Killed one of the Ant's guy who got Nen )
5. The rest, mafia's, police, other world organisation
 

TheAmericandream

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I'm just reminded of Morel's quote about you cannot be sure of a winner in a battle of Nen. I think its hard to say just how strong the Spiders are only that they are individually weaker then the King and the royal guards (but basically every character is) I would argue we still don't know enough about the characters from the newer arcs to say where the Spiders fall, I think their acts in Yorknew are still pretty impressive though, there are way too many variables in Nen to deduce much more detail then that. So no matter how strong they are or are not, I think they still pose a threat to the world of Hunters and could give them some serious problems as Hisoka has. I am really curious how Killua will be handled in the future because despite how powerful he seems, if he beat Hisoka or even nearly beat him I might stop reading the manga. He's 10 years too early for that and Gon would cry so much. Power level threads for HxH are always really fascinating because I don't think anyone can accurately depict whats going to happen, despite their being a very logical and solid system in place for fighting unlike most shonen manga. Ultimately whatever Togashi wants to happen, happens and he's generally talented enough to pull it off most times. What makes it so interesting is that Nen has enough wiggle room in terms of what you can/can't do that it to allow for Togashi to still do almost whatever he wants.
 
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Phantron

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I swear people are always misinterpreting Morel's quote. Immediately after he said that, Killua added that he doesn't consider 1% chance to win as something to go for. Just because certain characters in HXH are backed by plot immunity and ends up winning 100% of the time when they only have 1% chance to win doesn't mean power level is irrelevent. Feitan is significantly weaker than Zanza, and Zanza basically stood still while Feitan is charging up his special move while every other member have enough time to run away. This can only be explained as plot immunity as it'd be pretty stupid if the Spiders got wiped out by an irrelevent Ant.

There is no indication that popular like characters like Hisoka or Spiders are any more skilled or experienced than the established old guard. In the 3 on 1 against Razor, both Biscuit and Razor said the most skilled person out of the 3 was Killua, not Gon or Hisoka. Plot immunity is not the basis of strength. Certain popular characters will always get these unlikely breaks that allowed them to defeat a superior opponent, but like Killua said, you should never assume you're supposed to get those breaks that will allow you to win a battle where you only have 1% chance of winning. Even Gon, the king of lucky breaks, said that he needs to be stronger to the point where he can defeat his opponent without knowing their ability is, because you can't expect to fight with such a huge advantage (you'll rarely know what your enemy's ability is), even though he's someone who is literally a walking plot bailout.

In the power chart Biscuit draw, I think it was E who has the highest power and Biscuit said even then, the 3 weaker guys still could beat E. But that doesn't mean E is at a disadvantage against any of the 3 weaker guys. She's saying you can't be like Killua who is already thinking about running away when he faces an opponent like the hypothetical 'E' (e.g. clearly way stronger by any observeable method). That doesn't mean you have a 50/50 shot at beating this hypothetical 'E' guy.

The point of Morel's quote is that you can't be worried about odds and stuff because you can't change them anyway, and worrying too much means you'd lose whatever chance of winning you might have had. If the opponent is significantly stronger you're not going to be able to escape anyway, so it's even more important that you remain confident so that you can seize what little chance you have at winning. It doesn't mean just because you're fearless you have somehow improved your odds. He's saying fear will further diminish what little odds you have so you must fight with the confidence as if you have 100% chance to win.

In fact, in the Ant arc we see examples of emotions greatly changing the outcome of a fight. Pufu, for example, was crying about his jealousy over Komugi, and this is the only reason why Morel was able to sneak up on him to set up the Smoke Jail. There is no doubt that Morel can definitely see that Pufu is much stronger than he is, but that's precisely why he has no time to worry about these things. If he's like Killua prior to removing the needle, he'd be thinking like 'OMG this guy is so strong! He's not doing anything, could this be a trap?" And in the time you're worrying about that stuff, you'd have lost the only chance you've at trapping Pufu, as we know as soon as Pufu recovered from his mental trauma, there's pretty much no way any human can beat him in open ground given his ridiculous regeneration/splitting abilities. Pufu said that Morel have maybe 10% chance of beating him, and Morel was only able to even have a 10% chance because he seized an incredibly lucky opening. And when Pufu did escape because Morel screwed up, Morel told himself that he can't obsess over these things as that'd only make him fight even worse. In HXH you can't cry over spilled milk. If you see a guy is 99% certain to win, you still got to take your 1% chance to win because you sure won't be escaping against a guy that much stronger, so that's why you should be fearless, but being fearless itself doesn't make you more likely to win.
 
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Demonspeed

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Nobody said power level is irrelevant but your ability and your determination can make the difference. I don't know why you say that Feitan is significantly weaker than Zazan, he was clearly matching with her and he is clearly better than that because he was out of shape ( you can say that he was arrogant but it was clearly pointed out by the other spiders and also Morau's condition was one of the reason why their invasion was not as successful, he would have been even more impressive).

They didn't say that he was the most skilled but that the task he did was the most difficult job, Gon and Hisoka's tasks were way easier than what he did. You can't judge their talents with that. Killua disagreed with Morau but Killua has a pessimistic point of view, he thought like an assassin. Don't say me that Cheetu with his useless Hatsu would have beaten Gon or Killua even if he was way stronger than them( well, maybe but the odds are low).

Morau knew that Pouf was way stronger than him because of Colt. He also fought with all his might against Yupi despite the HUGE difference of power and he was very impressive because of the versatility of Deep Purple, Knuckle too, Shoot was crushed but Knuckle's ability was the most fearsome, with an ability like that he could even beat the King and it's one of the reason why he was struggling with Yupi. But because of the huge gap of power he would have been destroyed without any help because of Yupi's massive aura. When Yupi evolved and learnt to use Nen better, Knuckle was screwed. Also I don't think you should invoke "plot armor" when you are trying to explain the facts of the manga logically.
 

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I just don't think you can definitely say who can or can't defeat the Ryodan characters outside of the 4 top ants and Netero, there isn't enough information to draw much conclusion beyond that. They are strongish, I really don't see how anyone can think Morel is all that strong (but it's hard to say one way or another), I adore his character but he himself doesn't even think much of his strength and defines himself as a support fighter.
 

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Feitan hit Zanza with Ko but failed to even do damage. That is game over there if not for plot bailout. Here's where HXH's subtlety ends up biting itself on the head. Most people don't seem to realize Ko is the MOST powerful move any normal person has access to. HXH's moves are all about risk + conditions. What are the risks for Ko? If you get hit while charging it, you usually die. If you get hit anywhere besides the spot you charged Ko on, you usually die. After you used Ko, if you get hit at all, you usually die. This is because Ko forces you to be Zetsu everywhere else, and presumably after delivering a hit with Ko you're in Zetsu everywhere (since whatever energy you gathered has now dissapiated). These are some seriously crippling restrictions, so by the way HXH moves work, it must have an insane payoff or you'd be crazy to use this move at all. Again, people need to separate plot immunity from logic. We know that if you're in a state of Zetsu you're basically dead meat in HXH. Even Yupi, who is more than ten times stronger than than the guys he was fighting, could've been defeated if they forced him into Zetsu. Pitou, who believes he can kill Gon any time he wanted to, still cannot beat Gon while he's in Zetsu due to his ability requirement (Dr. Blythe forces him into Zetsu while it's active). Unless the point of Ko is that this is a move that can get you needlessly killed for no reason, its power output must easily exceed even the strongest moves because of its insane risk.

We're too used to seeing Gon use Ko and completing whiffing with only minor injuries. This is because he's the main character. If Ko works like how it is said to, he misses a Ko and then he dies and that'd be the end of HXH. That's why nobody else besides him uses Ko on a regular basis, because they're not as crazy nor do they have unconditional plot immunity. Knuckles didn't even use Ko to defend against Jajaken (if he did that'd mean he's way weaker than Gon, which makes no sense). Why? Because he's afraid if he misjudge where to block, he'd die instantly so he took his chances with Ken instead. In fact, Feitan is the only example of someone using Ko correctly. He did found a moment where his enemy is completely vulnerable, and if Zanza didn't turn out to have some insane physical defense, it'd be the only example of HXH of someone correctly used Ko. Instead Zanza tanked a Ko which led to even more crazy plot bailouts. I mean Pain Packer's power comes from the fact that Feitan has to take damage. How does that even compare to the risk you've to use for Ko, where any error is likely to get you killed? If Ko is weaker than Pain Packer, then is the point that Feitan is just insane for using a move that can very well get him killed instantly when he has a much more powerful move that certainly doesn't require him to risk getting instantly killed? In general HXH's handling of Ko is absolutely absurd and I do think Feitan should be saluted for being the only person who used it correctly in the series thus far.

---------- Post added at 03:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 AM ----------

On the subject of Morel, he, like Killua, got a massive nerf after the Ants arc. He is supposed to be one of the most powerful Hunters in the Hunter's Association and by the time the Election Arc comes around he's pretty much nobody important in terms of fighting ability, despite his contribution in the Ant arc alone put him in consideration to become a Triple Star Hunter. I mean really, Netero was going to just pick a weak guy as his right hand man in a battle to fight for humanity's survival where he had to bring along a nuke too? If he's supposed to be weaker than say, Hisoka, what you're saying is that Netero can't even find a guy as strong as Hisoka (whom he paid no attention to during the exam) to support him in a fight where he's forced to strap on a nuke? Honestly the whole notion of Netero having problem pulling the most powerful Hunters but apparently just found a nuke from the storage room is absurd. Whoever gave Netero the Rose is clearly far more powerful as an orgnaization, and obviously those guys would still prefer if Netero didn't have to use the Rose. So Netero's backers could easily squashed any internal dissidents within the Hunter's Association as any entity that can provide Netero with the Rose is far more powerful than the entire Hunter's Association from a political point of view.

Now you could make an argument that Morel's ability is not really something designed to kill, so maybe it's not as potent compared to the average ability of the Spiders that are all fighting oriented. That'd work except Hisoka's ability is obviously no way an ability designed to kill and he kills just fine, and Morel has shown far more creativity with his smoke compared to Hisoka's ability, so that theory cannot hold. Honestly, if Togashi doesn't have some obsession to make bubblegum seem like one of the most poweful killing powers you can learn, we wouldn't have this mess with Morel. He should be someone who is very powerful but has a relatively harmless ability (smoke), which is fine as his role is only supposed to stall for time for Netero. But since in the world of HXH we have bubblegum being an extremely potent killing power, that means there's pretty much no such thing as an ability that's not suited for killing if you can kill people with bubblegum.
 

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Feitan hit Zanza with Ko but failed to even do damage. That is game over there if not for plot bailout. Here's where HXH's subtlety ends up biting itself on the head. Most people don't seem to realize Ko is the MOST powerful move any normal person has access to. HXH's moves are all about risk + conditions. What are the risks for Ko? If you get hit while charging it, you usually die. If you get hit anywhere besides the spot you charged Ko on, you usually die. After you used Ko, if you get hit at all, you usually die. This is because Ko forces you to be Zetsu everywhere else, and presumably after delivering a hit with Ko you're in Zetsu everywhere (since whatever energy you gathered has now dissapiated). These are some seriously crippling restrictions, so by the way HXH moves work, it must have an insane payoff or you'd be crazy to use this move at all. Again, people need to separate plot immunity from logic. We know that if you're in a state of Zetsu you're basically dead meat in HXH. Even Yupi, who is more than ten times stronger than than the guys he was fighting, could've been defeated if they forced him into Zetsu. Pitou, who believes he can kill Gon any time he wanted to, still cannot beat Gon while he's in Zetsu due to his ability requirement (Dr. Blythe forces him into Zetsu while it's active). Unless the point of Ko is that this is a move that can get you needlessly killed for no reason, its power output must easily exceed even the strongest moves because of its insane risk.

...in general HXH's handling of Ko is absolutely absurd and I do think Feitan should be saluted for being the only person who used it correctly in the series thus far.
Ko, unlike hatsus with their conditions and pledges, is just an ordinary move, so the risk of focusing all your Nen into attack doesn't add an "X factor" to it. Feitan did get punished by it, but only through a crappy emission attack. Zazan isn't even Emission so it was just a run of the mill aura blast. Still strong enough to cause serious damage to Feitan though. Obviously if Zazan had punched Feitan instead he would've been instantly vaporized. Of course, his failure to end the fight with a direct hit Ko is slightly less explainable.


On the subject of Morel, he, like Killua, got a massive nerf after the Ants arc. He is supposed to be one of the most powerful Hunters in the Hunter's Association and by the time the Election Arc comes around he's pretty much nobody important in terms of fighting ability, despite his contribution in the Ant arc alone put him in consideration to become a Triple Star Hunter. I mean really, Netero was going to just pick a weak guy as his right hand man in a battle to fight for humanity's survival where he had to bring along a nuke too? If he's supposed to be weaker than say, Hisoka, what you're saying is that Netero can't even find a guy as strong as Hisoka (whom he paid no attention to during the exam) to support him in a fight where he's forced to strap on a nuke? Honestly the whole notion of Netero having problem pulling the most powerful Hunters but apparently just found a nuke from the storage room is absurd. Whoever gave Netero the Rose is clearly far more powerful as an orgnaization, and obviously those guys would still prefer if Netero didn't have to use the Rose. So Netero's backers could easily squashed any internal dissidents within the Hunter's Association as any entity that can provide Netero with the Rose is far more powerful than the entire Hunter's Association from a political point of view.
I think the point is that Pariston was making life difficult for Netero, and he probably has political power up top as well (Netero's boss is probably someone within the political sphere), not to mention the fact that Netero's "boss" wasn't even shy from using nukes. It was Netero who thought about the collateral damage and went in with a few hunters. But as a failsafe, he had a miniature nuke within him. I also get the feeling that Netero wanted to fight the King one on one. So it didn't matter, so long as the rest of the extermination team took out the small fry and kept the Royal Guards busy.

Now you could make an argument that Morel's ability is not really something designed to kill, so maybe it's not as potent compared to the average ability of the Spiders that are all fighting oriented. That'd work except Hisoka's ability is obviously no way an ability designed to kill and he kills just fine, and Morel has shown far more creativity with his smoke compared to Hisoka's ability, so that theory cannot hold. Honestly, if Togashi doesn't have some obsession to make bubblegum seem like one of the most poweful killing powers you can learn, we wouldn't have this mess with Morel. He should be someone who is very powerful but has a relatively harmless ability (smoke), which is fine as his role is only supposed to stall for time for Netero. But since in the world of HXH we have bubblegum being an extremely potent killing power, that means there's pretty much no such thing as an ability that's not suited for killing if you can kill people with bubblegum.
How is it not useful? Bungee Gum you can tie people's arms or legs together, reflect projectiles, shoot projectiles, lengthen attacks, use it as apparatus for extra mobility and mostly importantly, it can act as a cushion against physical attacks. It's not bad, we just haven't seen it applied all that much. Furthermore, Hisoka is extremely proficient in hand to hand combat. Morel's abilities are nice, but how good is he in a melee?
 

Phantron

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Ko, unlike hatsus with their conditions and pledges, is just an ordinary move, so the risk of focusing all your Nen into attack doesn't add an "X factor" to it. Feitan did get punished by it, but only through a crappy emission attack. Zazan isn't even Emission so it was just a run of the mill aura blast. Still strong enough to cause serious damage to Feitan though. Obviously if Zazan had punched Feitan instead he would've been instantly vaporized. Of course, his failure to end the fight with a direct hit Ko is slightly less explainable.




I think the point is that Pariston was making life difficult for Netero, and he probably has political power up top as well (Netero's boss is probably someone within the political sphere), not to mention the fact that Netero's "boss" wasn't even shy from using nukes. It was Netero who thought about the collateral damage and went in with a few hunters. But as a failsafe, he had a miniature nuke within him. I also get the feeling that Netero wanted to fight the King one on one. So it didn't matter, so long as the rest of the extermination team took out the small fry and kept the Royal Guards busy.



How is it not useful? Bungee Gum you can tie people's arms or legs together, reflect projectiles, shoot projectiles, lengthen attacks, use it as apparatus for extra mobility and mostly importantly, it can act as a cushion against physical attacks. It's not bad, we just haven't seen it applied all that much. Furthermore, Hisoka is extremely proficient in hand to hand combat. Morel's abilities are nice, but how good is he in a melee?
You're too fixiated on that there has to be something called a 'hatsu' versus a 'basic move'. Zeno said Netero is powerful because you can't predict how he allocates his aura at all. This is one of the basic training moves and yet that is also what makes Netero strong, because he can do one of the most basic things better than anyone else can. If someone created a move call "Uber Punch" where it's just a single punch and if you get hit anywhere else you die and if you get hit for a short period after you use it you also die, does that sound risky? It sure is a lot riskier than anything we know of besides perhaps Uber Gon's transformation (his price is paid regardless of the outcome, while "Uber Punch" you can certainly avoid paying the price if you kill the opponent in one hit), so by definition "Uber Punch" has to do incredible damage. And yet "Uber Punch" is exactly the same as Ko. If Ko does not have the same payoff as this hypothetical 'Uber Punch' Hatsu, nobody would ever use Ko unless they're insane.

Ko is pretty much the beginning and the end. It's the first 'Hatsu' like the move you'll learn and it's likely the last 'Hatsu' like move you'll learn in terms of power. The risk of Ko generally greatly outweighs the reward, which is why people develop other moves that doesn't involve getting themselves killed 99% of the time. When Gon attempted to use Ko to block Razor's ball and got knocked to the wall, what should've happened is his internal organs should've spilled from the impact and his lower body should've been separated from the rest of his body from the force, because by definition the rest of his body is in the state of Zetsu and cannot possibly withstand the collatoral impact. Of course Gon being Gon he just gets up and continue fighting because he can't possibly die. Zetsu versus anything is not 'seriously wounded'. It's anything that hits someone in Zetsu state leads to instant death. We've been repeatedly told fighting someone without aura is basically the same as having a death wish, but apparently this never applies to Ko.

For Netero, there's no way he or the Hunter's Association is the one in possession of the Rose let alone have the power to decide that it is okay to use a weapon that can potentially wipe out an entire country (the entire population were gathered in the blast radius). There's obviously some kind of powerful UN-like organzation that supplied the Rose to Netero and told him he's authorized to use it if he has to. This entity has power that far exceeds that of Hunter's Association politically let alone Pariston. So if there are really more powerful members Netero could've gotten then whoever authorized the Rose attack could've easily pulled strings since whoever supplied the Rose still wants to avoid using it if at all possible. We see that if the news of the Rose usage gets out to the public the Hunter's Association has to take the blame. What does that mean? They'd be lucky if blame just be the entire organization gets disbanded for what commiting an act of genocide. The entire Hunter's Association could've been sacrificed by whoever Netero's backers are as there was never any guaranteed the public wouldn't find out about the Rose usage, or that the Rose wouldn't detonate while inside the palace and thus killing an entire country's population. And yet these powerful backers were unable to overcome Pariston? Netero obviously had people he thought was the best he can get. Morel and Novu talking about Pariston getting in the way is supposed to just highlight the fact that Hunter's Association has its own problems, but the team they assembled is still meant to be the best they could get.

Ging is one of the few guys who clearly knew the entire plan all along. So you're saying one of the most powerful guys in the world, who also respected Netero a lot, was content with letting Netero blow himself up while the fate of the entire human race is on the line, just so that he wouldn't have run into Gon? No the point is that even someone as powerful as Ging was unlikely to make a difference in the fight so Netero didn't gather more people. If he could, then the entire Hunter's Association is simply beyond salvaging. Honestly the whole concept of Zodiac is a joke. They are supposed to be the ones who respected Netero the most, and apparently most of them knew Netero was going to blow himself up. So Pariston was giving them problem internally, but they can get around that if they simply quit the organization. Pariston certainly has no jurisdiction over people outside the Association, so apparently Netero's life was not worth quitting the prestiegious position of the Zodiac. They all talk about how Netero is a legend and someone they rever the most but if you got to quit your cushy job as Zodiac, that's obviously asking way too much.

For Hisoka, people need to stop drinking the 'rubber is awesome' coolaid championed by HXH and OP. If you're in a world where you're constantly having to fight for your survival, rubber isn't going to be your first choice of power. You'd be crazy if you pick it over lightning, even though rubber/bubblegum apparently beats lightning in both worlds. Hisoka fights well despite of his ability, not because of his ability. In his age group he is the most physically powerful non-Reinforcement user by far, and we see that all his moves with the bungee gum relies upon his superior physical strength. It's because his hands have incredible strength that he is able to pull his enemies or withstand the impact from reflecting their attacks. Against someone like Razor, who is far more powerful physcially than Hisoka, we see that theory falls apart. Hisoka has to cancel his ability even against one of Razor's clones, because it's implied that even the clones are stronger than him physically, so they can easily yank him instead of the other way around. He broke all his fingers trying to reflect Razor's attacks, which shows that he has to take a signifcant portion of the enemy's attack when reflecting them. It works fine against someone physically weaker than you, but it sure won't work against someone like Razor. And why wouldn't Morel be good at hand-to-hand? As Pariston puts it, one of the key attributes for Hunters is strength since they do a lot of fighting. How can anyone who managed to move up in the Hunter's Association somehow not be good at fighting unless their role is purely bureaucractic? Even someone like Biscuit who sure doesn't look like she'd be good at hand-to-hand is obviously extremely good at combat, so why would someone Netero rely on somehow be bad at hand-to-hand?

Throughout HXH there is this concept of abilities more suited for combat or not. For example Big Bang punch is obviously very suited for combat. So is Pain Packer. This makes sense since Spiders pretty much spend all their time killing people or avoid getting killed. On the other hand, someone like Biscuit has an ability that's clearly not suited for fighting. Hisoka's ability falls into the latter category, and he makes that up by being extra strong physically for his age group. That's fine when he's fighting guys within his age group where he can be confident that he's the strongest unless it's a Reinforcement user, and against Reinforcement users you can argue his superior tactics/intelligence, combined with the fact that Reinforcement users aren't likely to have interesting moves, is enough to get him through, though I'd argue he has a surprisingly hard time in his fight against Reinforcement users so far.
 

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Well, morrel is without a doubt a high level nen user. Now, would netero have been able to take more powerful nen users to the fight of the quimera ants if he wanted to? Definitely considering he did not take a single member of the zodiacs and that dragon guy was even supposed to be the one closest to netero. Netero during the fight with the king made the point that he wanted a perfect fight. I would think he picked morrel and knov because they were high level nen users who were not strong enough to get in the way of a fight of the likes he was looking for.

Now, an issue I see here is the assumption that the ants were in some form or context weak... However that is not the case at all, the ants were pretty damn strong overall. By the start of the arc we actually saw standard weak ants being able to actually beat nen users (although they were amateurs). I would think that alone is a pretty good indication of how strong ants can be. The next generation of ants were even stronger and developed usable and dangerous hatsus quite fast. None of the ants we saw during the ryodan extermination bit were altogether weak and zanzan was without a doubt the strongest one there. Still, most of the ryodan members actually had easy victories at large. The only one that had some measure of trouble was indeed feitan however there is the consideration that he did fight the strongest ant there and his hatsu alone does seem to require him to take some damage. And of course his hatsu was ultimately so powerful that actually being in the near vicinity was not an option for a single ryodan member.
 

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Well, morrel is without a doubt a high level nen user. Now, would netero have been able to take more powerful nen users to the fight of the quimera ants if he wanted to? Definitely considering he did not take a single member of the zodiacs and that dragon guy was even supposed to be the one closest to netero. Netero during the fight with the king made the point that he wanted a perfect fight. I would think he picked morrel and knov because they were high level nen users who were not strong enough to get in the way of a fight of the likes he was looking for.

Now, an issue I see here is the assumption that the ants were in some form or context weak... However that is not the case at all, the ants were pretty damn strong overall. By the start of the arc we actually saw standard weak ants being able to actually beat nen users (although they were amateurs). I would think that alone is a pretty good indication of how strong ants can be. The next generation of ants were even stronger and developed usable and dangerous hatsus quite fast. None of the ants we saw during the ryodan extermination bit were altogether weak and zanzan was without a doubt the strongest one there. Still, most of the ryodan members actually had easy victories at large. The only one that had some measure of trouble was indeed feitan however there is the consideration that he did fight the strongest ant there and his hatsu alone does seem to require him to take some damage. And of course his hatsu was ultimately so powerful that actually being in the near vicinity was not an option for a single ryodan member.
Netero may want the perfect fight but he's not someone who will risk wiping out a country just for the sake of perfect fight. Whoever backed him up with the Rose wouldn't allow this either. The most logical explanation is that even if he bought the entire Hunter's Association to fight the Meryem, and even if we complete ignore Meryem's ability to become stronger by consuming aura users, it was unlikely to improve Netero's odds by any meaningful amount since the difference between Meryem and everyone else is just far too great. Netero said it was just what he expected when he realized his attacks were effectively doing no damage to Meryem.

However, this still leaves the Royal Guards. Pufu said that if there are several guys as strong as Morel, they could've defeated him. If the Royal Guards aren't defeated, there's no way Netero could fight Meryem 1on1, let alone somewhere far enough so that the Rose explosion wouldn't just wipe out the entire country's civilians. This means if there are more people as strong as Morel, they could've at least keep all the Royal Guards busy. Yet Netero didn't bring those guys at all. If you look at how the event unfolded, the only reason Netero was able to get his 1on1 was because of Komugi, which is something he cannot possibly have known about. Without her, both Pufu and Pitou would be by Meryem's side during the actual fight, and Pufu would never agree to let Meryem leave to fight someone by himself. Even if Meryem still developed respect for human, he knows Pufu's 'just kill all humans!' stance isn't exactly wrong, so if Pufu is present, the 1on1 would be impossible. I'd argue that Meryem asked Zeno to send him far away precisely because he wants to avoid Pufu. That is, Meryem knows Pufu will simply advocate to terminate all the intruders immediateyl, and he knows that is not the wrong thing to do. Even if he wants to understand humanity, he's not a tyrant to say, "My way or the highway" especially on an issue like this where the fate of his race is at stake, so he will definitely back off. Without the 1on1 we know the entire nation is doomed and then you might as well why don't they just launch nuclear missiles to begin with. So it is absolutely crucial to keep the Royal Guards occupied, and if Morel isn't supposed to be that strong, there is certainly the personnel to pull this off. The alternative would be that Netero grossly underestimated the ability of the Royal Guards and was lucky that Komugi's presence basically elminated 2 out of 3 Royal Guards, so is the point that you don't need a plan when Togashi has your back?

The class of Ants below Zanza were never supposed to be a serious threat to high level users. Killua was killing them in one hit even after they learned aura once his needle was removed. The strongest Ant at the Zanza class level was probably Leol, and he said he was defeated by the Hunters before which is why he swore allegiance to Meryem. It's heavily implied those who were taught Hatsu by Pufu are much stronger compared to the ants that just tried to figure this out on their own (except for Cheetu, who was downright hopeless), so Zanza at best is average for her class simply because she was never taught Hatsu properly by someone who really understands it.
 
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