Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[gnut]

Can you get me off the hook this time tom? For old times sake?

ikr...lol

 

[M3J]

can you post it back possibly

plz



for an ol'fellow mafia

Spoiler

Should have already been approved and all by now. If you can't see it, then lemme know. I can see it no problem.

 

[Roman]

So like, this tree nonsense is totally not fit for the story... The scheme itself is raped through so many stories and myths, not to mention that most powerful shinobi have to give their thanks to a tree.

 

[Rikudou King]

Like I said, seeing him with the other Bijuu was the culmination. And it was fine that way.

But it wasn't. A point had been made about how the Kyuubi had been allowing Naruto to use it's chakra without issue, something that was going on well before the meeting with the other Bijuus. So it went from willingly sacrificing it's own life for one last attempt to kill Naruto to storing Naruto's chakra without drain literally the next day.

 

[Roman]

But it wasn't. A point had been made about how the Kyuubi had been allowing Naruto to use it's chakra without issue, something that was going on well before the meeting with the other Bijuus. So it went from willingly sacrificing it's own life for one last attempt to kill Naruto to storing Naruto's chakra without drain literally the next day.

He was interested enough to not try and kill him through stealing his chakra. He got curious after Naruto said that he'd take away all his hatred. This was the sign to Kurama that he could potentially be different than others. And he proved he was with Son, hence the culmination. It all went like it should.

 

[Schabrak]

Kurama was rooting for Naruto when they made first contact with Madara, he seemed quiet happy doing so.

Question is: "tomorrow" is Naruto's birthday, making him five years older than during the beginning, aroud one to two years since the time-skip,how long has it really been since the war started? Only one, two days?

 

[REN KOUEN]

Kurama was rooting for Naruto when they made first contact with Madara, he seemed quiet happy doing so.

Question is: "tomorrow" is Naruto's birthday, making him five years older than during the beginning, aroud one to two years since the time-skip,how long has it really been since the war started? Only one, two days?

the war seems to have been going on for at least a month

but its hard to estimate with the inconsistencies

i know he trained with be for at least a few days on the turtle island...

 

[Delbi]

Question is: "tomorrow" is Naruto's birthday, making him five years older than during the beginning, aroud one to two years since the time-skip,how long has it really been since the war started? Only one, two days?

I'd have to think it's been a year and a half since the start of Part 2, only seems logical. I fail to see how only 6 months have passed from the time Naruto was brought back until now.

The war can only be a few weeks to a month long since Obito declared it, which means that Sasuke was out for that long which to me seems far fetched. I'm going with that at the MOST, Obito declared war 3 weeks ago in the manga.

The whole fighting portion has only lasted 2 days, maybe 3 depending on how long this battle has actually been.

 

[Rikudou King]

He was interested enough to not try and kill him through stealing his chakra. He got curious after Naruto said that he'd take away all his hatred. This was the sign to Kurama that he could potentially be different than others. And he proved he was with Son, hence the culmination. It all went like it should.

And the Kyuubi being interested or having faith in Naruto, trusting that said faith would be awarded and thus not making any attempt to escape are totally in character, right?

 

[Roman]

And the Kyuubi being interested or having faith in Naruto, trusting that said faith would be awarded and thus not making any attempt to escape are totally in character, right?

Kurama's character isn't designed as being a mass of hatred on its own. He became this way because of how people treated them. If humans are the ones who made them that way then the humans are the ones who could change that, hence Naruto.

 

[Schabrak]

It's not like Kurama never tried to escape, so what's the problem again? It sounds like he had to try to escape, but guess what, it would show that he hasn't changed at all.

Kishimoto's is not a exceptional or even good writer, he failed at conveing the change more fluidly, but that's his fault and that's why we have to look upon his change in context of his ability to show change. We saw Naruto talk to it, how he showed empathy and similarities to his own life, which it did observe while living within the boy. For all we know Kurama is in a non-physical state all the time, for him it could be "weeks in the world of thoughts", since the mind is just that much faster than the body. Proof me wrong. :P

And does it fucking matter how long it took!? Humans can create a bond for life within a couple hours/days, why shouldn't those two be able to do the same? This is an unreasonable argument.

 

[Roman]

It's not like Kurama never tried to escape, so what's the problem again? It sounds like he had to try to escape, but guess what, it would show that he hasn't changed at all.

Kishimoto's is not a exceptional or even good writer, he failed at conveing the change more fluidly, but that's his fault and that's why we have to look upon his change in context of his ability to show change. We saw Naruto talk to it, how he showed empathy and similarities to his own life, which it did observe while living within the boy. For all we know Kurama is in a non-physical state all the time, for him it could be "weeks in the world of thoughts", since the mind is just that much faster than the body. Proof me wrong. :P

And does it fucking matter how long it took!? Humans can create a bond for life within a couple hours/days, why shouldn't those two be able to do the same? This is an unreasonable argument.

This is why I always say that many readers have inability to perceive common sense. They only believe or see what's literally said in the manga. I'm sure a lot them had perusals in schools, reading stories which have a plot but leave you with your own interpretations many times. There are such instances in this story, as well, which can leave you like that.

 

[Exodi]

This is why I always say that many readers have inability to perceive common sense. They only believe or see what's literally said in the manga. I'm sure a lot them had perusals in schools, reading stories which have a plot but leave you with your own interpretations many times. There are such instances in this story, as well, which can leave you like that.

If only we all were as intelligent as you.

It's not like Kurama never tried to escape, so what's the problem again? It sounds like he had to try to escape, but guess what, it would show that he hasn't changed at all.

Kishimoto's is not a exceptional or even good writer, he failed at conveing the change more fluidly, but that's his fault and that's why we have to look upon his change in context of his ability to show change. We saw Naruto talk to it, how he showed empathy and similarities to his own life, which it did observe while living within the boy. For all we know Kurama is in a non-physical state all the time, for him it could be "weeks in the world of thoughts", since the mind is just that much faster than the body. Proof me wrong. :P

And does it fucking matter how long it took!? Humans can create a bond for life within a couple hours/days, why shouldn't those two be able to do the same? This is an unreasonable argument.

That sounds like a joke, but it is unfair to ask. Because there's no way to really prove that.
Which, actually, is kind of the point. This is why people are concerned at Kurama's seemingly sudden change.

We can all assume and guess and use our "common sense", sure.
But since there's Kurama was still a hateful being even shortly before the war, it raises up some questions.

It kind of does matter how long it took.
Kurama is not a human.

Kurama lived with his hatred of humans for a very, very long time. Long before he was sealed in Naruto.

He is way older than most humans we know in the series now. The comparison, in my opinion, is not valid.

 

[Roman]

If only we all were as intelligent as you.

Funny thing is that it doesn't require high intelligence, specially because such instances were met by anyone who went to elementary school, let alone anything above it.

 

[Schabrak]

Hey guys. let's work together and have a debate, fight the ideas, not the person.

We can all assume and guess and use our "common sense", sure. 

But since there's Kurama was still a hateful being even shortly before the war, it raises up some questions. 

We can also seek out flaws and live with them, work with them.

Okay, I understand now, since Kurama was malicious for a century or so, it would need an adult twenty something Naruto to equalize the time it spent being evil. Let's not consider that those sixteen years were in his mind, but were simply ignored before Naruto achieved RM, because it had no intention/interest to let those feelings reach him.

Lot's of stories with immortals and humans around, time doesn't always have to play a role.

 

[LnDRash]

Education and intelligence have very little in common. I always cringe when both are brought up in the same sentence since you have boderline retarded people getting through all exams while you also have people with 140+ IQ's failing to get through lower secondary education for whatever reasons. There is no direct correlation.

Besides... what one considers "common sense" is highly subjective. What sounds perfectly logical to lets say an 80 IQ individual (thus considered "common sense" by said individual) doesn't have to sound that logical anymore for a 140 IQ individual. The "simpler" individual most probably doesn't even take notice of flaws and inconsistencies which are painfully obvious for the other one.

And does it fucking matter how long it took!? Humans can create a bond for life within a couple hours/days, why shouldn't those two be able to do the same? This is an unreasonable argument.

No it does not matter how long it took... at the end of the day it only matters if it was believable or not... and for me this simply wasn't the case.

 

[Roman]

Education and intelligence have very little in common. I always cringe when both are brought up in the same sentence since you have boderline retarded people getting through all exams while you also have people with 140+ IQ's failing to get through lower secondary education for whatever reasons. There is no direct correlation.

Besides... what one considers "common sense" is highly subjective. What sounds perfectly logical to lets say an 80 IQ individual (thus considered "common sense" by said individual) doesn't have to sound that logical anymore for a 140 IQ individual. The "simpler" individual most probably doesn't even take notice of flaws and inconsistencies which are painfully obvious for the other one.

I have to say I agree with this, specially with the bolded part. Maybe it was harsh but I do think that every person in these discussions has at least an average IQ, which is why I'm baffled sometimes because of interpreting things in the story. I brought elementary school in the question because it was precisely that which reminded me of not taking everything as it is or isn't as some things in stories need your own interpretations between the lines.

 

[Rikudou King]

Kurama's character isn't designed as being a mass of hatred on its own. He became this way because of how people treated them. If humans are the ones who made them that way then the humans are the ones who could change that, hence Naruto.

You mean it now isn't, because that is how it had been design before. And the issue is that Naruto didn't do anything to change the Kyuubi. All Naruto did was promise something and the Kyuubi suddenly stop hating him. it wouldn't be such a big deal had the change happen after Naruto had proven himself, but it didn't. It happen before, with the retcon that the Kyuubi had always been watching Naruto and held faith in him. If Naruto's determination was the key, then it just doesn't make sense that the Kyuubi attempted to kill Naruto a short time before.

Also, the only person shown mistreating the Kyuubi was Madara, perhaps KinGin too. There couldn't have been any beforehand, as the means to do so didn't exist as far as we have been told.

 

[Roman]

You mean it now isn't, because that is how it had been design before. And the issue is that Naruto didn't do anything to change the Kyuubi. All Naruto did was promise something and the Kyuubi suddenly stop hating him. it wouldn't be such a big deal had the change happen after Naruto had proven himself, but it didn't. It happen before, with the retcon that the Kyuubi had always been watching Naruto and held faith in him. If Naruto's determination was the key, then it just doesn't make sense that the Kyuubi attempted to kill Naruto a short time before.

Also, the only person shown mistreating the Kyuubi was Madara, perhaps KinGin too. There couldn't have been any beforehand, as the means to do so didn't exist as far as we have been told.

It might've appeared so, yes. Kurama was surprised and flipped a coin once Naruto said that he'll do something about his hatred but considering what type of character Naruto is and how long Kurama has been watching him, it's not hard to believe that he was influenced by Naruto's chakra and character all along. This is where interpreting between the lines comes. Also, you forget about the hatred in Naruto, whose disappearance made a huge deal, as well, with Kurama's transformation into good.

They all mistreated him, specifically previous Jins. They weren't as harsh as Madara manipulating him and treating him like a tool, but it's harsh enough to ignore him and contain him in silence without ever showing interest in him.

 

[Delbi]

Education and intelligence have very little in common. I always cringe when both are brought up in the same sentence since you have boderline retarded people getting through all exams while you also have people with 140+ IQ's failing to get through lower secondary education for whatever reasons. There is no direct correlation.

Besides... what one considers "common sense" is highly subjective. What sounds perfectly logical to lets say an 80 IQ individual (thus considered "common sense" by said individual) doesn't have to sound that logical anymore for a 140 IQ individual. The "simpler" individual most probably doesn't even take notice of flaws and inconsistencies which are painfully obvious for the other one.


No it does not matter how long it took... at the end of the day it only matters if it was believable or not... and for me this simply wasn't the case.

IQ in itself is a poor way to judge intelligence as well. My IQ is measured at above genius but I'll be the first to admit that I am in no way shape or form a genius.

Kids that often times have high IQs but have shitty test scores suffer from either A) laziness, B) a learning disorder, C) shitty teaching or D) a combination of some of the three.

While I am huge advocate that education needs to be changed in order to better fit the needs of children, the sad truth is many children do not wish to be taught, and become idiots because they lack things like discipline. That is a parenting problem, not a teaching problem.

---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

Okay, I understand now, since Kurama was malicious for a century or so, it would need an adult twenty something Naruto to equalize the time it spent being evil. Let's not consider that those sixteen years were in his mind, but were simply ignored before Naruto achieved RM, because it had no intention/interest to let those feelings reach him.

Lot's of stories with immortals and humans around, time doesn't always have to play a role.

Very few of the people or creatures in this manga act normally or exhibit change in normal ways.

All of the people Naruto changed in Part 1 had good reason to change because Naruto actually made good points to them. Many of them were children, who are easier to change. Those changes were realistic.

The changes that Naruto made to people in Part 2, mainly to Nagato and A are utter and complete bullshit. These are grown men changing their entire philosphies on the words of an idiot teenager with about as much experience and education in world events and policy as my 12 year old sister. I won't even get into how stupid the Kyuubi's change of heart is, or at least his attitude. I could understand if he wanted to help Naruto to ensure his own survival so he didn't become part of the Juubi again. But him becoming a Care Bear is unacceptable.