Character Oni in retrospect

Ninomiya

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how hard Oni was actually trying during those first three games, maybe he played at the level he and Tokugawa beat Kintarou and Ryoma at at the beginning of the series.
Maybe Oni figured that since he destroyed Kintarou when they played the first time (or that's what it looked like at least), he'd still be fine playing at that level, even if Kintarou improved a bit (and he acknowledges that he underestimated how much Kintarou actually improved).
Good point.
The first thing Oni thinks is "He hasn't improved at all".
So he is most likely reflecting on the time he and Tokugawa wiped the floor with Kintaro and Ryoma.
 

Hardy

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That's what I've been saying all the time D:

He spent like what, 2 days AROUND (not even with) Tooyama? How the crap would he know about his true power
 

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The last time we ignore Konomi page that was feed to us, some people in this forum don't believe that 10 ball is an actual tier level difference and that fuwa can beat mouri.
How were we to know the extent of 10ball? We just knew it was a big deal to the coaches.
We didn't see the true value of 10ball from that moment Mifune mentions it briefly all the way until Oni and Kintaro set a court on fire.
That's a long time so it was hardly "fed to us". It was just hinted at since they mentioned it once.
In fact, to our knowlege, Oni and Tokugawa were just top of the 2nd String with 10ball. We had no idea they were G10 level.
So at that point the info was two guys have 10ball and are only top of 2ndString.

I don't remember anyone saying Fuwa can actually beat Mouri. Just that they are probably within the same tier.
Mouri and Fuwa have identical stats since they both play what I simply call "boring" tennis.
Only thing giving Mouri an edge is that he is +1 in Power.
If Fuwa brings out his "Kyouzou" nonsense and reverses the fatigue in his arm from losing in Power ever so slightly, I don't why there isn't

Its good to argue against things Ken. That's the whole point of a forum.
"Some people on this forum believed that the list from 20-1 was entirely in order of strength".
See what happened to this belief? Now you can say that info was "fed to us" but it clearly isn't the case from 1 through to 20.
 

Kaoz

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The first thing Oni thinks is "He hasn't improved at all".
So he is most likely reflecting on the time he and Tokugawa wiped the floor with Kintaro and Ryoma.
Oni said: "I didn't expect him to improve this much in such a short amount of time. [...] I've been too careless!!"
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v08/c091/12.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v08/c091/15.html

So I'd say he expected and witnessed some improvement, he just didn't think it was enough to close the gap.

He spent like what, 2 days AROUND (not even with) Tooyama? How the crap would he know about his true power
It was more like a week and a half.
 

Hardy

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Wait what, really? 10 days passed after the Revolution matches?
 

Ninomiya

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Hmm...
Also the idea of the Oni watching the video thing may be stretch.
Since we'd probably know about it.
In fact, Oni was at the courts the entire time, then he spent time with his pet Hamster, played a serious match with Kaji and the next day was the Genius 10 Challenge so I can't imagine where Oni had enough time to get back to the behind the scenes surveillance room and re-watch the entire match which probably took the usual 30mins+ and then go back to everything.
Also, I don't think Konomi has ever mentioned in any material that Oni goes back to the computer room with the guys does he?
 

Kaoz

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Wait what, really? 10 days passed after the Revolution matches?
No, but surely Oni didn't completely ignore Kintarou the entire time since the losers returned from the mountain.

Also, I don't think Konomi has ever mentioned in any material that Oni goes back to the computer room with the guys does he?
Don't think so.
 

Hardy

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I always thought that the Revolution matches happenned 1 day after the losers' return... I need a timeline.
 

Kaoz

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I always thought that the Revolution matches happenned 1 day after the losers' return... I need a timeline.
Day 1 - Middle Schoolers arrive at the camp and beat the lower courts
Day 2 - Momoshiro vs Oni, Elimination Tiebreaks, Losers climb up the mountain
Days 3 to 5 - Regular Training and Shuffle Matches (Winners), Losers vs High Schoolers on the court near the cliff, Sake Stealing Mission, Sportsman Hunt
Day 6 - Team Shuffle: 3rd Court vs 5th Court, 2nd Court vs BJB
Days 7 to 16: Ten Day Shuffle
Day 17: Return of the 1st String, Revolution of the BJB
Day 18: Genius 10 vs 2nd String


There might be more days than that that we don't know of, but it's at least this many.
 

Hardy

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Oh wow, I read Chap. 48 like crap, sorry about that.
 

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How were we to know the extent of 10ball? We just knew it was a big deal to the coaches.
We didn't see the true value of 10ball from that moment Mifune mentions it briefly all the way until Oni and Kintaro set a court on fire.
That's a long time so it was hardly "fed to us". It was just hinted at since they mentioned it once.
In fact, to our knowlege, Oni and Tokugawa were just top of the 2nd String with 10ball. We had no idea they were G10 level.
So at that point the info was two guys have 10ball and are only top of 2ndString.
As far as I remember, some people are mentioning it as truly a tier difference. Others just say how many ball a player can hit doesn't matter. And we're know because Konomi feed us that information. Some doesn't take it because they don't want to believe Konomi, but the information is there.

And at that point, the 1st stringer isn't in the story yet. So it's actually "the top of 2nd stringer who is the goal of the main characters at that point."

I don't remember anyone saying Fuwa can actually beat Mouri. Just that they are probably within the same tier.
Mouri and Fuwa have identical stats since they both play what I simply call "boring" tennis.
Only thing giving Mouri an edge is that he is +1 in Power.
If Fuwa brings out his "Kyouzou" nonsense and reverses the fatigue in his arm from losing in Power ever so slightly, I don't why there isn't
I didn't know Kyouzou reserse fatigue. No where was it mention. It reverse special tech. Since Mouri was beating Fuwa with his base stats, there's no need for special tech, meaning there's nothing to reflect to his enemy. And many people believe that Fuji beat Mouri in the 1st tournament, where Mouri was stronger than Fuwa who was even with Yukimura. You can take of that tournament result what you want.

And this bring me up to another point. Fuwa actually have Kyouzou. We were spoon feed this info too. And people, well, ignore it and just say Fuwa is dreaming. LMAO.

Its good to argue against things Ken. That's the whole point of a forum.
"Some people on this forum believed that the list from 20-1 was entirely in order of strength".
See what happened to this belief? Now you can say that info was "fed to us" but it clearly isn't the case from 1 through to 20.
That belief seem to still be largely true, with only very few exceptions. Kintarou have page that support he's not pulling his full strength out, as shown already. You can ignore the evidence in the manga, or not.

Also, it's not just Oni. Kintarou himself say he's hiding his true power too.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v08/c091/14.html
 
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Ninomiya

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As far as I remember, some people are mentioning it as truly a tier difference. Others just say how many ball a player can hit doesn't matter. And we're know because Konomi feed us that information. Some doesn't take it because they don't want to believe Konomi, but the information is there.

And at that point, the 1st stringer isn't in the story yet. So it's actually "the top of 2nd stringer who is the goal of the main characters at that point."
This is just chronologically out of place.
Actually, I wasn't even on this forum when that chapter dropped.

In case you've forgotten, the tier list got updated with us going into detail regarding the 1st String all the way back in 2011.

The Revolution began in 2011 Ken.
The chapter that mentions the 1st String's existence had already been released before Myself, LetalHawk, Hardy, Phantron & BrandnewKid had even joined MH.

So when we arrived, the level of discussion on the topic of 10ball was in a completely different place.
It had apparently made no difference since Oni and Tokugawa were apparently being benched by like... 20 guys.
I believe this was done on purpose by Konomi as to keep us surprised at the gap between Oni, Tokugawa and the rest of the Camp.

Since it would have made a really boring story had he just had it confirmed from the start Oni and Tokugawa are absolute beasts and will crush at least 90% of the camp.
Him hinting towards it and making it look like 10ball isn't all too crucial for a while was a good move.

I didn't know Kyouzou reserse fatigue. No where was it mention. It reverse special tech. Since Mouri was beating Fuwa with his base stats, there's no need for special tech, meaning there's nothing to reflect to his enemy. And many people believe that Fuji beat Mouri in the 1st tournament, where Mouri was stronger than Fuwa who was even with Yukimura. You can take of that tournament result what you want.

And this bring me up to another point. Fuwa actually have Kyouzou. We were spoon feed this info too. And people, well, ignore it and just say Fuwa is dreaming. LMAO.
Props on believing Fuwa actually had Kyouzou btw.
Yips causes numbness.
Its possible for numbness to be caused by fatigue.

Back to my point, if Fuwa can apparently reflect freaking Blindness, Numbness, Deafness, I mean it was "fed to us" as you like to say
Note the way Fuwa says "Everything will be reflected back onto you". The word everything really implies that we're talking all kinds of effects in a match.
Otherwise you're assuming that Konomi has given Fuwa a retarded power that only works when facing Yukimura and nobody else.
Since nobody else can steal sense in PoT.

That belief seem to still be largely true, with only very few exceptions. Kintarou have page that support he's not pulling his full strength out, as shown already. You can ignore the evidence in the manga, or not.
You put emphasis on "very", so you need me to break it down for you.

Oni is the No.5 yet Duke is No.3.
Ryoga is No.4 yet Duke is No.3
Kimijima, Tohno and Ochi all have equal stats.
So its not as simple as the No.s being in order of strength there, its clearly complicated on intentionally and based around how the three of them work with one another.

Date's stats are equal to Fuwa's.
Clearly down to who is better at a Doubles combination here.

Hakamada > Ban.

Yuuma, Yuuho & Mitsuya have equal stats. Yet it seems the Mutsu bros are above in rank due to their Doubles ability.
Although the series suggests DT would give the advantage in this situation.
The Mutsu bros show nothing that suggests they could beat a man with DT superior to Yanagi's.

Yet of course, you will tell me that what I have mentioned is "very few".

The whole point of Konomi distributing various abilities and then releasing a fanbook with stats is clearly to show that the 1st String isn't entirely in order, and that Doubles combinations play a massive role.
 

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The fanbook says that Kyouzou reflects special moves and abilities, I don't think that means the opponent experiences Fuwa's regular level of exhaustion.
 

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This is just chronologically out of place.
Actually, I wasn't even on this forum when that chapter dropped.

In case you've forgotten, the tier list got updated with us going into detail regarding the 1st String all the way back in 2011.

The Revolution began in 2011 Ken.
The chapter that mentions the 1st String's existence had already been released before Myself, LetalHawk, Hardy, Phantron & BrandnewKid had even joined MH.

So when we arrived, the level of discussion on the topic of 10ball was in a completely different place.
It had apparently made no difference since Oni and Tokugawa were apparently being benched by like... 20 guys.
I believe this was done on purpose by Konomi as to keep us surprised at the gap between Oni, Tokugawa and the rest of the Camp.

Since it would have made a really boring story had he just had it confirmed from the start Oni and Tokugawa are absolute beasts and will crush at least 90% of the camp.
Him hinting towards it and making it look like 10ball isn't all too crucial for a while was a good move.


Props on believing Fuwa actually had Kyouzou btw.
Yips causes numbness.
Its possible for numbness to be caused by fatigue.

Back to my point, if Fuwa can apparently reflect freaking Blindness, Numbness, Deafness, I mean it was "fed to us" as you like to say
Note the way Fuwa says "Everything will be reflected back onto you". The word everything really implies that we're talking all kinds of effects in a match.
Otherwise you're assuming that Konomi has given Fuwa a retarded power that only works when facing Yukimura and nobody else.
Since nobody else can steal sense in PoT.


You put emphasis on "very", so you need me to break it down for you.

Oni is the No.5 yet Duke is No.3.
Ryoga is No.4 yet Duke is No.3
Kimijima, Tohno and Ochi all have equal stats.
So its not as simple as the No.s being in order of strength there, its clearly complicated on intentionally and based around how the three of them work with one another.

Date's stats are equal to Fuwa's.
Clearly down to who is better at a Doubles combination here.

Hakamada > Ban.

Yuuma, Yuuho & Mitsuya have equal stats. Yet it seems the Mutsu bros are above in rank due to their Doubles ability.
Although the series suggests DT would give the advantage in this situation.
The Mutsu bros show nothing that suggests they could beat a man with DT superior to Yanagi's.

Yet of course, you will tell me that what I have mentioned is "very few".

The whole point of Konomi distributing various abilities and then releasing a fanbook with stats is clearly to show that the 1st String isn't entirely in order, and that Doubles combinations play a massive role.
Or I should say cutting out exception that was given in the manga. I already include it in my post in the past that I assume you read. That cuts

Oni is the No.5 yet Duke is No.3.
Ryoga is No.4 yet Duke is No.3

Due to the reason I mention a million time before.

You would think Kimijima/Tohno wouldn't be partner on your logic, don't you think? They seem to get along so well.

What I mean by this is that, if you were to graph 1st stringer, there is a clear trend upward. I actually see people debate Akiba>Twin before as well.

And anyways, that's actually one of my weaker argument. I say it's heavily suggested in the manga that 1st stringer power=ranking. But it's never said in the manga to be that way. Different from the other points, which is mention in the manga. So regardless of whether this theory of mine is wrong or not, the databook still do not contradict the manga, simply because the manga never say it directly. This is my assumption, UNLIKE my other point, which is facts that the manga stated.

As for Mirror Eyes, just what Kaoz says. It doesn't only work on Yips. It reflect your opponent move. And since Mouri and all G10 member had Fuwa beat in stat, they just play normal and beat Fuwa. end of story. Simple as that. I can't think of anyway for Fuwa to beat Mouri, actually. Mouri is stronger than Fuwa in base stats. And Mouri also has no special move for Fuwa to reflect.

So, in the other word, although I was wrong on that, it show that my assumption on 1st stringer ranking and power is wrong. It doesn't show that my other points are wrong at all. After all, my other points has a solid confirmation page in the manga that this point doesn't.
 
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Brandnewkid

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Oni is just another mechanism in the giant Konomi-Is-Dicking-Around machine.

Konomi:

- Says 1st Stringers are the strongest
- But has an Overseas Group that's even stronger

- Says Byodoin is the strongest
- But has Oni beat him

- Says Oni is pretty much the strongest at the camp
- But has never beaten Tanegashima

Also,

- Has characters play at a professional camp tailor made for preparation for professional tennis careers
- Makes characters wield 2 rackets
 

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- Has characters play at a professional camp tailor made for preparation for professional tennis careers
- Makes characters wield 2 rackets
PoT tennis has different rule than our. Look at Samurai Drive, as Kaoz point out to me before, that move also doesn't work as shown in the manga. And 4th counter wouldn't work if the ball leave the racquet for even 1 second.
 

Kaoz

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- Says 1st Stringers are the strongest
- But has an Overseas Group that's even stronger
The 1st String is the Overseas Group.

- Says Byodoin is the strongest
- But has Oni beat him

- Says Oni is pretty much the strongest at the camp
- But has never beaten Tanegashima
And this is called generating hype for the character that's currently playing. Once Byoudouin is up, it'll probably be that Tanegashima actually can't return the Glowing Shot, or that he beat Oni when he returned to the camp or something. The key here is that he's not telling us everything at all times, just the stuff that makes the current character look impressive.
 

Ninomiya

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And 4th counter wouldn't work if the ball leave the racquet for even 1 second.
Its strongly implied that Fuji carefully waves his racket like retard in a way that the ball never leaves the racket even once.
Just think, if Tooyama is able to launch himself so high that when Oni looks at him, all he sees are clouds behind Kintaro, then a man spinning his racket slow whilst balancing a ball is rather believable.

The fanbook says that Kyouzou reflects special moves and abilities, I don't think that means the opponent experiences Fuwa's regular level of exhaustion.
That means stats should play no part then.
It reflects special moves simple as that.
As long as Fuwa has the necessary Technique or Power to hit that specific shot back then it should work.
Stamina should be irrelevant. And if you take 1 point of stamina, Mouri is equal to Fuwa in stats.

Mouri is saved when against Fuwa purely due to playing a boring tennis. (I don't want to see Mouri in a match again).
But against Ochi, surely Fuwa can reflect Mental Pressure?
Surely Fuwa can reflect special moves like the ExecutionMethods, or just special moves in general?

Looking at their stats, Mouri is going to win but not by so much either.
You would think Kimijima/Tohno wouldn't be partner on your logic, don't you think? They seem to get along so well.
No. You've clearly missed the storyline Ken.
It was hidden that Kimijima and Tohno disliked each other from the rest of the camp.

What I mean by this is that, if you were to graph 1st stringer, there is a clear trend upward. I actually see people debate Akiba>Twin before as well.
This was never doubted.
The issue was that it was notably apparent that the list wasn't as clear as No.1-20 in order of strength.

And anyways, that's actually one of my weaker argument. I say it's heavily suggested in the manga that 1st stringer power=ranking. But it's never said in the manga to be that way. Different from the other points, which is mention in the manga. So regardless of whether this theory of mine is wrong or not, the databook still do not contradict the manga, simply because the manga never say it directly. This is my assumption, UNLIKE my other point, which is facts that the manga stated.
Actually Ken you were extremely against any kind of notion that the list was wrong in terms of Power.
You said there was nothing to prove although we'd provided many things to prove it.
You'd been using your usual "If its said by Konomi then that's all I'll accept". Pretty much missing the point of a forum.

As for Mirror Eyes, just what Kaoz says. It doesn't only work on Yips. It reflect your opponent move. And since Mouri and all G10 member had Fuwa beat in stat, they just play normal and beat Fuwa. end of story. Simple as that. I can't think of anyway for Fuwa to beat Mouri, actually. Mouri is stronger than Fuwa in base stats. And Mouri also has no special move for Fuwa to reflect.

So, in the other word, although I was wrong on that, it show that my assumption on 1st stringer ranking and power is wrong. It doesn't show that my other points are wrong at all. After all, my other points has a solid confirmation page in the manga that this point doesn't.
Still not quite.
There wasn't actually solid confirmation on the issue of Fuwa's moves in his match though.
There wasn't solid confirmation that Oni having 10ball made him the strongest in the entire camp either.
 

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That means stats should play no part then.
It reflects special moves simple as that.
As long as Fuwa has the necessary Technique or Power to hit that specific shot back then it should work.
Stamina should be irrelevant. And if you take 1 point of stamina, Mouri is equal to Fuwa in stats.

Mouri is saved when against Fuwa purely due to playing a boring tennis. (I don't want to see Mouri in a match again).
But against Ochi, surely Fuwa can reflect Mental Pressure?
Surely Fuwa can reflect special moves like the ExecutionMethods, or just special moves in general?

Looking at their stats, Mouri is going to win but not by so much either.
If Ochi can beat Fuwa without Mental Pressure, why should he be using it? Just play normal and he'll win already.

No. You've clearly missed the storyline Ken.
It was hidden that Kimijima and Tohno disliked each other from the rest of the camp.
Doesn't change the fact that they actually dislike each other.


Actually Ken you were extremely against any kind of notion that the list was wrong in terms of Power.
You said there was nothing to prove although we'd provided many things to prove it.
You'd been using your usual "If its said by Konomi then that's all I'll accept". Pretty much missing the point of a forum.
Yes, I was against it. And that theory was proven wrong. But that doesn't change my other points that was proven correct by evidence from Konomi. And I don't see the other argument have example that is support by Konomi yet. Sorry that I "miss the point of a forum". But when the forum is missing "the point of argument" by lacking evidence, it's just something that's going to happen. If I find some page by Konomi that support my point and the other side is just stating their point without a single evidence, then it doesn't matter at all.

Still not quite.
There wasn't actually solid confirmation on the issue of Fuwa's moves in his match though.
There wasn't solid confirmation that Oni having 10ball made him the strongest in the entire camp either.
There wasn't a solid confirmation that Fuwa move can reflect special move, but there is a solid confirmation that Fuwa DOES HAVE mirror eyes, which is what I been saying the whole time. Don't add more argument that I didn't say before to make my point weaker, really, that's just low.

As for Oni, we know he can split the ball into 10, and he seem to be able to hit it off many different positions too. So if his opponent can't use 10 balls, they'll lose the point, plain and simple. Hence the "you can't beat Oni unless you can hit 10 ball". And I have never seen 10 ball getting return by not using 10 ball. Point me to the page if I miss it. And I never say that 10 point make you the strongest in the camp. You're making up my point again. The fact that you have to make up my point to make your argument pass is really just a low thing to do.
 

Ninomiya

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If Ochi can beat Fuwa without Mental Pressure, why should he be using it? Just play normal and he'll win already.
Fuwa loses in Power & Speed to Ochi but he has more Technique than Ochi.
Its not like Ochi will bury the game against Fuwa. And Ochi's Mental Pressure when explained by Oni described it as something that just happens due to Ochi's natural mannerisms on the court.
The same way Yukimura and his Yips happens. So its something unavoidable from Ochi almost.
If this is the case, Fuwa (in theory) can reflect this, changing the direction of the match possibly.
I'm not saying this is concrete, its just a theory, and supported by the manga at least.

Doesn't change the fact that they actually dislike each other.
?
It change what is relevant. I'm saying the coaches likely paired each other up by who plays well together.
What does whether or not they like each other got to do with anything?
The coaches had no idea that Kimijima secretly wanted Tohno's knee broken.

Yes, I was against it. And that theory was proven wrong. But that doesn't change my other points that was proven correct by evidence from Konomi. And I don't see the other argument have example that is support by Konomi yet. Sorry that I "miss the point of a forum". But when the forum is missing "the point of argument" by lacking evidence, it's just something that's going to happen. If I find some page by Konomi that support my point and the other side is just stating their point without a single evidence, then it doesn't matter at all.
This is the concept of manga theories Ken. You literally just described manga theories. Sometimes really strong theories aren't always supported 100% in the manga.
Whilst it can't be 100% proven in the manga, evidence is gathered to support the idea that is being put forward.

There wasn't a solid confirmation that Fuwa move can reflect special move, but there is a solid confirmation that Fuwa DOES HAVE mirror eyes, which is what I been saying the whole time. Don't add more argument that I didn't say before to make my point weaker, really, that's just low.
Do you even know when to use the expression "that's just low"?
I haven't even "added" anything. You made the bold statement saying "all, my other points". I just pointed this out.
This is a forum Ken. Don't make things personal.

As for Oni, we know he can split the ball into 10, and he seem to be able to hit it off many different positions too. So if his opponent can't use 10 balls, they'll lose the point, plain and simple. Hence the "you can't beat Oni unless you can hit 10 ball". And I have never seen 10 ball getting return by not using 10 ball. Point me to the page if I miss it. And I never say that 10 point make you the strongest in the camp. You're making up my point again. The fact that you have to make up my point to make your argument pass is really just a low thing to do.
Again. Stop making things personal when you're on here.
As for Oni, we were told that "Ryoma and Kintaro won't beat Oni & Tokugawa who can hit 10 at a time."
But then we had Oni and Tokugawa listed as below 20 other people.

I think this justifies assumptions that MSers could compete with them.
Sure those assumptions were later proved to be wrong, but its really understandable that people debated it.
 
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