Rebecca won her block with skill or luck or both?

[Hachibukai]

Rebecca avoided most of Hakuba assult with pure skill because her father trained her from a very young age, yet she won because the more powerful threat in that block fell asleep (Canvindish) IMHO, Sabo said that she won because of skill and Donflamingo said that she was very lucky ( http://www.batoto.net/read/_/218558/one-piece_ch734_by_powermanga/15)

There is nothing like "contradicting the manga" in this case so I would like to know everybody's opinions about this matter.

 

[Spam286]

Any argument about this is basically moot. There are a handful of scraps of evidence with which to measure Rebecca's strength against Cavendish's. It's not nearly enough to make a definitive statement about who would have won the block if Cavendish hadn't fallen asleep. As for Hakuba, the mechanics of his appearance are completely unknown save that we know Cavendish must be asleep. We don't know why he fell asleep, we don't know Hakuba's M.O. once he's out and we don't know what makes him go back.

All we do know is that Rebecca was able to capitalise on his appearance because she was quick enough. Since the argument that she was lucky relies on the presumption that she would not have been able to win otherwise, we can never know for sure. Hence a moot argument.

As for what it says about her chances in the final, again, there isn't enough evidence. Hakuba's speed blitz is a feat we haven't seen the likes of before. Soru and such abilities share a similar feel, but the scale is completely different. So far as I remember, Soru has only ever been seen used to perform a single movement faster than sight, from point A to point B. Hakuba remained almost entirely unseen for the whole duration of the attack, which hit nineteen people 'in the blink of an eye'. That's probably just an expression, but then we see most of the people he hits in the midst of falling over in the same panel, so it's still very quick.

The only other attack that bears any similarity is Brook's humming slash, but again the scale is completely different. Brook has only ever hit single targets with it, so the comparison is still not very good.

 

[sameel]

I think it was pure skill that she dodged that attack by hakuba. Some people say that the helmet saved her. Well lets say she didnt have the helmet on. She might have been able to move her head more because of less weight. So she would still survive the attack.

However, if hakuba didnt fall asleep, i dont really know if rebecca would be able to survive. So its both skill (dodged first attack) and luck (hakuba fell asleep).

 

[Hachibukai]

We also know that she doesn't hurt her enemies (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/201064/one-piece_ch725_by_powermanga/12), just like an Aikido user.
Would she have been able to defeat any of the big shots without hurting them? I don't think so because in order to win but produce no harm you must be truly above your opponents, just like when Luffy was eating and stopped Rebecca, or like when she was doing her "dance of swords" throwing the normal gladiators into the water. She is above everybody in that block in speed and probably CoO (except Cavendish) but we don't know about stamina/strenght ect.

It was thanks to Hakuba that all the participants there where tested in her best field (speed and CoO) [Luck] in which she clearly won [Skill] because her training.

You may think that this is a moot argument, but there is people claiming such things like "Saying that she won by luck is contradicting the manga" only because Sabo said so and not taking into account that Donflamingo saw everything too and said that she was lucky.

 

[Kaiten]

Rebecca avoided most of Hakuba assult with pure skill because her father trained her from a very young age, yet she won because the more powerful threat in that block fell asleep (Canvindish) IMHO, Sabo said that she won because of skill and Donflamingo said that she was very lucky ( http://www.batoto.net/read/_/218558/one-piece_ch734_by_powermanga/15)

There is nothing like "contradicting the manga" in this case so I would like to know everybody's opinions about this matter.

lol and Luffy only survived Mohji's attack because of "the devil's luck" lolz
Funny how Mohji said the same thing as Doflamingo.

Bad guys say things like this. If we listened to everything bad guys say, Luffy and Coby would have died at the end of chapter two. Nobody survives the iron mace

---------- Post added at 03:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:31 PM ----------

You may think that this is a moot argument, but there is people claiming such things like "Saying that she won by luck is contradicting the manga" only because Sabo said so and not taking into account that Donflamingo saw everything too and said that she was lucky.

If we took into account everything villains say, the manga would have ended ages ago, Luffy would have lost to every villain in the series, returned to Windmill Village, and cried himself to sleep wondering what might have been.

Sabo said it was skill not luck. She was shown anticipating his attack, and dodging the blow. All of the other combatants took direct hits, unable to avoid Hakuba's attack. It doesn't matter if she would have beat Cavendish one on one, she never had the chance. It is a moot point, contradictory to events and statements in the manga, and most like irrelevant to future plot developments.

---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------

If we have to speculate about something that has already happened, wouldn't it be more correct to say Rebecca was a little unlucky? If she had dodged a second earlier, she might have avoided his sword altogether, and never even been knocked down.

 

[llaubacher]

I think it was pure skill that she dodged that attack by hakuba. Some people say that the helmet saved her. Well lets say she didnt have the helmet on. She might have been able to move her head more because of less weight. So she would still survive the attack.

However, if hakuba didnt fall asleep, i dont really know if rebecca would be able to survive. So its both skill (dodged first attack) and luck (hakuba fell asleep).

Well, then let's say she would have to carry her head in both of her palms as it would be split in two halves. She was fast enough to notice of Hakuba's movements, however, even though she moved to avoid it, Hakuba was still fast enough to lay a hit on her. If she had not had the helmet, she would have been done for.

 

[Anduren]

It was definitely skill that allowed Rebecca to react to Hacuba's movements; this was something very few people in and out of that ring was able to do. It was also because of this skill of hers (with the added luck that she happened to be wearing a helmet) that she got out of the ring alive. However, as Bastille says, Hacuba's "predisposition to fall back asleep after appearing, though... is quite unsuitable for a contest style match."

Maybe it was Cavendish's bad luck or Rebecca's good luck... but as things turned out, no-one can plausibly deny that a large part of the reason why Rebecca was able to win the block was because Cavendish was out of order after all the other contestants were knocked out. The other part of the reason being that she was able to survive the initial attack. For example, even if Rebecca stood up after what happened, if Cavendish didn't stay asleep (either as Cavendish or Hacuba), chances are she might not have won.

Basically, the extent of her skill gave her the ability to outlast the other contestants who were knocked out (except Cavendish) and the fact that Cavendish took a nap laying down was her luck.

 

[Kaiten]

Maybe it was Cavendish's bad luck or Rebecca's good luck... but as things turned out, no-one can plausibly deny that a large part of the reason why Rebecca was able to win the block was because Cavendish was out of order after all the other contestants were knocked out. The other part of the reason being that she was able to survive the initial attack. For example, even if Rebecca stood up after what happened, if Cavendish didn't stay asleep (either as Cavendish or Hacuba), chances are she might not have won.

But he did fall asleep, and Bastille did say that Cavendish was unsuited for this type of fight. How can Cavendish's flaws reflect poorly on Rebecca?

If Cavendish did not fall asleep, the fight would have continued. Except that he did fall asleep, so the fight ended. How can she be judged based on something that will never happen. We don't know what would have happened if the fight continued. It ended and will never resume. The only thing that actually matters is that he was aiming to slice her open, but she dodged in time for the blow to glance off her helmet, knocking her down, but not out.

 

[Syphin]

I still can't believe people are relying on the fact that Rebecca had her helmet to support any claim of "luck" she apparently had for surviving Cavendish's/Hakuba's attack. If Rebecca was lucky to have her helmet during the D Block battle, Cavendish/Hakuba was lucky to have his sword, Durandal, during the D Block battle.

Like seriously, people were allowed to bring equipment into the D Block before they entered the arena, given it did comply with the weight restriction and their weapon wasn't a firearm. Rebecca throughout the battles she fought most likely always wore her helmet because it matched the image of Kyros the statue was based around and as we all know Rebecca admires the legendary Kyros a lot.

Cavendish/Hakuba hit Rebecca's helmet because he wasn't fast enough to adjust his attack to hit anywhere else. The speed Rebecca and Cavendish/Hakuba have are seemingly close but due to Rebecca sensing the attack and moving her body in a position that forced Cavendish/Hakuba to hit her helmet which allowed her to in a sense parry his attack, it is Rebecca that seems to be the faster of the two. Cavendish/Hakuba wouldn't aim for Rebecca's helmet as his point/mark of attack, he hit the other contestants in their chest/stomach region, the only contestant which he failed to do so on was Rebecca was, who sensed his attacked, moved her body and used her helmet to parry his blow to negate the damage she would receive. The fact that Rebecca sensed she wouldn't completely evade Cavendish's/Hakuba's attack fully due to his speed closely matching her own and chose instead to use her helmet to parry it suggest that she is a VERY capable and adept fighter/gladiator - as illustrated by Sabo saying she saw through Cavendish's/Hakuba's attack.

And as for the "fortunate" circumstance surrounding Cavendish/Hakuba falling asleep, well things happen like this in One Piece, it was Cavendish's/Hakuba's own fault for relying on an unstable ability during such a tournament. Until we know the exact mechanics behind how Hakuba is unleashed and disappears, we cannot conclude that it was only Rebecca's "luck" that she had won the D Block. But even if it was the fortunate circumstances surrounding Rebecca which led her to victory, this wouldn't be new to One Piece.

Luffy beat Crocodile because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding his first two defeats at Crocodile's hand. Luffy defeated Enel because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding his body composition. Luffy survived Lucci's attacks and was able to escape as the victor because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding the Going Merry's appearance. Luffy beat Moriah because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding the shadows Moriah captured. Luffy survived Magellan's poison because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding who he met. Luffy survived Marineford because of the fortunate circumstances of other characters protecting him (including his own brother). Luffy survived Hyouzou's and Caesar Clown's poison because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding his immunity to poison thanks to Magellan. And Luffy is going to defeat Doflamingo because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding Doflamingo pretty much screwing himself over with his arrogance and overconfidence.

Fortune or "luck" is an integral part to how battles are determined in One Piece. Rebecca winning because she was fortunate the circumstances were in her favour shouldn't come as surprise and shouldn't take anything away from her victory.

 

[Spam286]

We also know that she doesn't hurt her enemies (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/201064/one-piece_ch725_by_powermanga/12), just like an Aikido user.
Would she have been able to defeat any of the big shots without hurting them? I don't think so because in order to win but produce no harm you must be truly above your opponents, just like when Luffy was eating and stopped Rebecca, or like when she was doing her "dance of swords" throwing the normal gladiators into the water. She is above everybody in that block in speed and probably CoO (except Cavendish) but we don't know about stamina/strenght ect.

It was thanks to Hakuba that all the participants there where tested in her best field (speed and CoO) [Luck] in which she clearly won [Skill] because her training.

You may think that this is a moot argument, but there is people claiming such things like "Saying that she won by luck is contradicting the manga" only because Sabo said so and not taking into account that Donflamingo saw everything too and said that she was lucky.

Uh, you say 'we don't know about stamina/strength etc.' which ought to mean that you don't know if she would have won or not, but instead you say you don't think she would have. Based on what? If you don't know if she had what it took to win, then you don't know if she would have won. Unless you can produce some pretty solid evidence that she would have been unable to win the block without Hakuba, the argument does indeed remain moot.

It's also worth noting that aside from Rebecca, all the other people Hakuba took out went down to body blows. I doubt it's a coincidence that Rebecca was the only one to take a glancing head shot when her head was the only part of her body with any significant armour. I mean, you might call it luck, unless there were two panels showing Rebecca noticing and reacting to Hakuba, and another of Sabo noting the fact.

 

[Hachibukai]

She would have not won based on her style, if she changes styles now against Diamante and start hurting people (because he is working under DD and pacifism my be turned off) the things may change.

 

[Anduren]

First of all...

But he did fall asleep, and Bastille did say that Cavendish was unsuited for this type of fight. How can Cavendish's flaws reflect poorly on Rebecca?

It doesn't reflect poorly on Rebecca. It just goes to show that she was lucky that he didn't stand up to continue the fight when she was barely able to stand up with her sword as a crutch.

If Cavendish did not fall asleep, the fight would have continued. Except that he did fall asleep, so the fight ended. How can she be judged based on something that will never happen. We don't know what would have happened if the fight continued. It ended and will never resume. The only thing that actually matters is that he was aiming to slice her open, but she dodged in time for the blow to glance off her helmet, knocking her down, but not out.

Aren't you the one judging the fight based on what didn't happen? The kind of argument you're using with that bolded statement is really weak (strawman argument). I was pointing out that after the whirlwind, everybody was down. But out of all of those "everybody" only two people were not knocked out. One being Cavendish (he was just sleeping and had taken no damage whatsoever) and Rebecca (who barely got back up because she had a sword to use as a crutch). This actually DID happen in the manga, so there's no need to speculate on how she could've won if Cavendish didn't happen to be sleeping. As far as I know, Cavendish remaining asleep had nothing to do with Rebecca's skill or any ability she used. She won the round based on a technicality having survived the initial attack. It's as simple as that.

I still can't believe people are relying on the fact that Rebecca had her helmet to support any claim of "luck" she apparently had for surviving Cavendish's/Hakuba's attack. If Rebecca was lucky to have her helmet during the D Block battle, Cavendish/Hakuba was lucky to have his sword, Durandal, during the D Block battle.

I think you completely missed the point there. That or I'm simply not seeing what you're getting at. Her having the helmet wasn't any sign of luck by itself. Only that when Hacuba attacked, even with her skill, reaction and response, the attack hit her head and knocked her helmet off and her to the ground. She is shown bleeding in the head when she gets back up. If you want to assume that even if she wasn't wearing the helmet she would've been able to parry and survive that attack then that's a different argument altogether. But its not an unreasonable assumption to think that the helmet kept Durandal from causing a serious wound to her head.

Cavendish/Hakuba hit Rebecca's helmet because he wasn't fast enough to adjust his attack to hit anywhere else. The speed Rebecca and Cavendish/Hakuba have are seemingly close but due to Rebecca sensing the attack and moving her body in a position that forced Cavendish/Hakuba to hit her helmet which allowed her to in a sense parry his attack, it is Rebecca that seems to be the faster of the two. Cavendish/Hakuba wouldn't aim for Rebecca's helmet as his point/mark of attack, he hit the other contestants in their chest/stomach region, the only contestant which he failed to do so on was Rebecca was, who sensed his attacked, moved her body and used her helmet to parry his blow to negate the damage she would receive. The fact that Rebecca sensed she wouldn't completely evade Cavendish's/Hakuba's attack fully due to his speed closely matching her own and chose instead to use her helmet to parry it suggest that she is a VERY capable and adept fighter/gladiator - as illustrated by Sabo saying she saw through Cavendish's/Hakuba's attack.

This may very well be what happened, but I didn't see such an elaborate scheme. The way I saw it, Rebecca was observing what happened to Cavendish (in her tiny flashback) and was trying to make sense of what was going on with him. When she noticed him moving to attack her she positioned herself to defend and was knocked off (or parried with her sword and the attack ricocheted off her helmet) This is skill enough to be praised by the likes of Sabo because almost nobody there was even able to see Hacuba's movements. In other words, she was quick enough to react but the attack itself was too powerful for her to repel or redirect like she usually does. On top of this, she made no retaliation against Hacuba in that incident. Whether you want to argue that she didn't want to or wasn't capable of retaliating is a different argument too.

Spoiler

And as for the "fortunate" circumstance surrounding Cavendish/Hakuba falling asleep, well things happen like this in One Piece, it was Cavendish's/Hakuba's own fault for relying on an unstable ability during such a tournament. Until we know the exact mechanics behind how Hakuba is unleashed and disappears, we cannot conclude that it was only Rebecca's "luck" that she had won the D Block. But even if it was the fortunate circumstances surrounding Rebecca which led her to victory, this wouldn't be new to One Piece.

Luffy beat Crocodile because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding his first two defeats at Crocodile's hand. Luffy defeated Enel because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding his body composition. Luffy survived Lucci's attacks and was able to escape as the victor because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding the Going Merry's appearance. Luffy beat Moriah because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding the shadows Moriah captured. Luffy survived Magellan's poison because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding who he met. Luffy survived Marineford because of the fortunate circumstances of other characters protecting him (including his own brother). Luffy survived Hyouzou's and Caesar Clown's poison because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding his immunity to poison thanks to Magellan. And Luffy is going to defeat Doflamingo because of the fortunate circumstances surrounding Doflamingo pretty much screwing himself over with his arrogance and overconfidence.

Fortune or "luck" is an integral part to how battles are determined in One Piece. Rebecca winning because she was fortunate the circumstances were in her favour shouldn't come as surprise and shouldn't take anything away from her victory.

I agree with about everything you said here. I never said that having good luck takes away from a character's skill. In fact, good luck and being at the right time at the right place plays a huge role in One Piece as the mystery of the Will of D. It wasn't completely because of skill that Luffy survived the 1st half of the grand line. But from the passionate debates I've seen lately, it seems some people take it personally and feel greatly offended by the concept that Rebecca couldn't have won if anybody of the caliber of Cavendish also stood up at the same time she barely did; because she was wide open just like when all those contestants attacked Cavendish thinking he fell asleep.

 

[Spam286]

She would have not won based on her style, if she changes styles now against Diamante and start hurting people (because he is working under DD and pacifism my be turned off) the things may change.

Why do you keep claiming this based on no evidence? Why would she not have won based on her style? What is there to conclusively suggest that this is the case? Nothing.

 

[amizou]

In my opinion she was lucky, please try to understand my argument before answering me

Rebecca avoided the attack with pure skill, as many said, she was the only one who noticed Hakuba and saw his attack, even so she couldn't avoided it entirely but she tried and were able to reduce it to not get knocked off, so at this point I give her credit as she wasn't lucky but still not fast enough to avoid the attack.

Now, why do I insist on the fact that she was lucky, simply because if Hakuba didn't fall asleep I believe that she wouldn't have any chance to win the fight, he is very powerful for her so in the end of this Block it wasn't the strongest one who have won but Rebecca who was lucky that the circumstances played in her favor.

 

[Spam286]

In my opinion she was lucky, please try to understand my argument before answering me

Rebecca avoided the attack with pure skill, as many said, she was the only one who noticed Hakuba and saw his attack, even so she couldn't avoided it entirely but she tried and were able to reduce it to not get knocked off, so at this point I give her credit as she wasn't lucky but still not fast enough to avoid the attack.

Now, why do I insist on the fact that she was lucky, simply because if Hakuba didn't fall asleep I believe that she wouldn't have any chance to win the fight, he is very powerful for her so in the end of this Block it wasn't the strongest one who have won but Rebecca who was lucky that the circumstances played in her favor.

Out of interest, do you believe Bartolomeo won his block by luck?

It comes down to how you view the advent of Hakuba. Is he a character in his own right or a glorified technique of Cavendish's? Does his appearance come with stipulations? Does he hit everyone in range once, or does he have a specific time-limit, or did he actively choose to go back to sleep when he did? And was that because he thought he'd taken everybody out or was it because he was bored?

If you see him as a character unto himself with no real stipulations except his own will, then Rebecca was probably lucky he chose to go back to sleep when he did. If his appearance is more like a technique and has caveats, either a time-limit or a one-hit-per-person thing, then luck doesn't really factor into it. Rebecca just avoided the attack like no one else did. Without knowing for sure it's sort of impossible to say either way.

 

[Hachibukai]

In order to win but produce no harm you must be truly above your enemy, we saw her parrying with Suleiman and avoiding his attacks but even with her ally(s) she couldn't take any of the bigshots and you may say that she got not enough time to do so but in the same panels she was fighting Suleiman, Bellamy took someone we knew the name of (Tank Lepanto). She was struggling already thus she is not strong enough to defeat those opponents with that style.

 

[amizou]

Out of interest, do you believe Bartolomeo won his block by luck?

It comes down to how you view the advent of Hakuba. Is he a character in his own right or a glorified technique of Cavendish's? Does his appearance come with stipulations? Does he hit everyone in range once, or does he have a specific time-limit, or did he actively choose to go back to sleep when he did? And was that because he thought he'd taken everybody out or was it because he was bored?

If you see him as a character unto himself with no real stipulations except his own will, then Rebecca was probably lucky he chose to go back to sleep when he did. If his appearance is more like a technique and has caveats, either a time-limit or a one-hit-per-person thing, then luck doesn't really factor into it. Rebecca just avoided the attack like no one else did. Without knowing for sure it's sort of impossible to say either way.

So you want to say that Cavendish become this popular and with a bounty of 250 000 000 with a technique that have a time attack of few seconds then go to sleep, and he never fought someone strong enough to not fall against him for few seconds because if what you assume is true the Cavendish should be acptured a long time ago.

Even so lets say that you are right, its still luck that she won, because simply Cavendish slept, as I said she is not the strongest one in her block but she still won so she was lucky, its as simple as that. I'm not saying she is weak but she is not the strongest one in her block and all the circumstances that happened in the block D played in her favor.

 

[Syphin]

Oda has conveyed it countless times in One Piece, strength does not solely determine who the victor in a fight is. Determining who the victor of each Block would be based on just strength goes against what Oda has conveyed in the past 735 chapters. The circumstances of the arc are the determining factors in which the victor of a fight/battle is decided. Oda even had a [significant] character expressly state that it isn't strength/fighting ability alone which determines victory:

Spoiler

Even if Cavendish had gotten up and continued to attack, he wouldn't have won. This arc had structured itself around Rebecca serving a key role and being defeated in the D Block would go against that, she would win regardless if Cavendish attacked her a thousand times - Rebecca has the power of being a main arc character. More then "luck", it is the circumstances of the arc which determined Rebecca to be the winner as she is one of the main players in this Dressrosa Arc, up there with Luffy and Doflamingo in importance.

If Oda see's it as necessary for Rebecca to win the Corrida Colosseum and/or receive the Mera Mera no Mi, then that is what would happen regardless of whether she is not the strongest contestant in the final Colosseum match. The Mera Mera no Mi will likely go to Sabo, but I can see Oda working out a situation in which Rebecca retains her "Undefeated" status and wins the Corrida Colosseum battle.

 

[Cyrs]

She saw through Cavendish's attack and dodged it. Definitely not luck, especially since she's undefeated in the arena. By the way, Barto also won because he saw through Elizabello's attack and blocked it with a barrier, while it took out everyone else, including Elizabello himself. So both he and Rebecca won in very similar ways. And Cavendish and Elizabello lost in similar ways. So the most we can say for sure is that if Cavendish didn't go to sleep, it would've been a longer fight. If you want to call that luck, I guess you can go ahead. Sabo didn't call it luck, though. I think he'd know (Doflamingo wasn't there and was doing the "I'm-a-villain-and-talking-down-to-the-good-guys" bit that villains do).

 

[sameel]

Well, then let's say she would have to carry her head in both of her palms as it would be split in two halves. She was fast enough to notice of Hakuba's movements, however, even though she moved to avoid it, Hakuba was still fast enough to lay a hit on her. If she had not had the helmet, she would have been done for.

I suggest you read the full post. I dont understand why you wrote this.