Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2014] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[101nemesis]

....

Right. It would be immensely disrespectful if this topic appeared once in a while but not when this topic comes up in every TOC and when everyone already knows what others think of it and their opinions.
Conversing more about something that has been discussed again and again will not go anywhere. The only thing it would do is create arguments that aren't needed among Bleach fans and non Bleach fans.

We know where everyone stands on this matter from the discussion that happened less than 2 weeks ago, so is there really a need to bring this up again? We all can state facts and give examples but none of those necessarily prove anything.

- The haters bring in older series that were axed in spite of being popular and the fans, such as myself, bring up how Bleach is not like the other series.
- Some will say 'This is WSJ. Anything can happen'. Others will say 'WSJ will give Kubo that much more respect for what his series has done and achieved after all WSJ take pride in "respecting" their authors'
- People would say 'newer series are rising and taking over' while the fans would say 'that does not mean they would just cancel a series that earns them tons of money which is the combined sales of Haikyuu!!, Soma and Nisekoi'
- People would bring up the reduced sales. Fans would say those sales have been constant for the past 3 years and is not reducing anymore like how usual declining series would portray.

I've just summed up everything people would argue about and have argued about from 2 weeks ago. Would people agree on something? No, they won't. Hence my suggestion of changing the topic.

 

[xi0]

However, you have to know that there really aren't much examples for Jump series which sell like at least 500,000 copies per volume and ranked really low. So far, we only had example like series that continued like 1 year or had a tank sale like 200,000 per volume. Bleach is one of rare case in Jump.

If you guys think the ranking is more important than popularity, then Stone Ocean should have axed by like 3 volumes despite of being popular.

It has nothing to do with importance of ranking and sales for me. Bleach is in it's last arc, it's been advertised as much. Assuming things will be different for it, is silly IMO. Fans may want it that way, and it MIGHT be allowed to end naturally, but what evidence is there to suggest it will be? Not saying it won't, I guess it isn't wise to assume either way.

 

[Josef]

Even though Bleach's popularity has decreased, it is still one of most popular series in Jump. So, I don't think Jump going to axe Bleach.

Plus, as I said before, there really aren't much examples for Jump series which sell like at least 500,000 copies per volume and ranked really low. The series like continued around 1 year or had a tank sale like 200,000 per volume are completely different case as compared to Bleach; Bleach is one of rare case in Jump.

I'm saying this again, if you guys think the ranking is more important than popularity, then Stone Ocean should have axed by like 3 volumes despite of being popular.

But ranking and popularity come down to fans? O_O I mean "people that buy the manga", you know without them the manga would not exist? If a consensus(ofc this is an abstract way of putting it) among fans exists that some series is bad slowly but surely one by one they will give up on it. Following all trends and taking into consideration everything connected with Bleach that decline is too obvious.

If you are saying that just because of one factor, which really is: Bleach is a well known series instead of the volume sales which are always high for each series, since people tend to buy volumes more, I don't see any reason to "defend"(which I don't attack but wtv) Bleach. There is nothing to defend or attack here, ignoring Bleache's decline is like ignoring the Elephant in the Room, hoping it passes.

 

[Kaizou 10]

Bleach is in it's last arc, it's been advertised as much. Assuming things will be different for it, is silly IMO. Fans may want it that way, and it MIGHT be allowed to end naturally, but what evidence is there to suggest it will be?

I know it is in last arc. But, the part which I don't get is people are saying that Bleach going to end by this year or shortly after.

I know it is in last arc, but I think Bleach will most likely going to continue for like few more years and I don't really see it'll end by this year.

 

[xi0]

I've just summed up everything people would argue about and have argued about from 2 weeks ago. Would people agree on something? No, they won't. Hence my suggestion of changing the topic.

I don't disagree with what you've said, but it's still completely relevant and ontopic. We can't assume everyone reads every post. If you don't like the topic at hand, then don't participate, easy.

 

[Kaizou 10]

But ranking and popularity come down to fans? O_O I mean "people that buy the manga", you know without them the manga would not exist? If a consensus(ofc this is an abstract way of putting it) among fans exists that some series is bad slowly but surely one by one they will give up on it. Following all trends and taking into consideration everything connected with Bleach that decline is too obvious.

If you are saying that just because of one factor, which really is: Bleach is a well known series instead of the volume sales which are always high for each series, since people tend to buy volumes more, I don't see any reason to "defend"(which I don't attack but wtv) Bleach. There is nothing to defend or attack here, ignoring Bleache's decline is like ignoring the Elephant in the Room, hoping it passes.

Yes, I understand Bleach has declined. BUT, you have to know that Bleach's popularity hasn't keep declining. As far as I know, I think the decline has stopped now and it is current keeping its popularity (well, it is less than before).

Plus, Bleach is in final arc, so the editors don't really have to pressure Kubo to end by this year. It'll end naturally.

 

[WyldViolet]

Even though Bleach's popularity has decreased, it is still one of most popular series in Jump. So, I don't think Jump going to axe Bleach.

That would have been a good argument several years ago.
But now with huge success that completely outshine Bleach like Kuroko no Dragon Basketball Z, AssClass, Haikyuu!, Shokugeki no Soma, and Nisekoi,

And other medium popular series that Jump might want to push more than Bleach now that it's fire is burnt out like World Trigger, Saiki Kusuo no Saian, Isobe Isobee Monogatari, and Soul Catcher(S).

Not to mention if 2-3 of the 4 new series end up being a hit Bleach will not be in a good spot at all. And if by some rare chance all 4 turn out to be hits then Bleach is done for.

---------- Post added at 10:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 AM ----------

Right. It would be immensely disrespectful if this topic appeared once in a while but not when this topic comes up in every TOC and when everyone already knows what others think of it and their opinions.
Conversing more about something that has been discussed again and again will not go anywhere. The only thing it would do is create arguments that aren't needed among Bleach fans and non Bleach fans.

We know where everyone stands on this matter from the discussion that happened less than 2 weeks ago, so is there really a need to bring this up again? We all can state facts and give examples but none of those necessarily prove anything.

- The haters bring in older series that were axed in spite of being popular and the fans, such as myself, bring up how Bleach is not like the other series.
- Some will say 'This is WSJ. Anything can happen'. Others will say 'WSJ will give Kubo that much more respect for what his series has done and achieved after all WSJ take pride in "respecting" their authors'
- People would say 'newer series are rising and taking over' while the fans would say 'that does not mean they would just cancel a series that earns them tons of money which is the combined sales of Haikyuu!!, Soma and Nisekoi'
- People would bring up the reduced sales. Fans would say those sales have been constant for the past 3 years and is not reducing anymore like how usual declining series would portray.

I've just summed up everything people would argue about and have argued about from 2 weeks ago. Would people agree on something? No, they won't. Hence my suggestion of changing the topic.

You seem to not be able to set aside your bias of being a Bleach fan. Not all of the people saying that Bleach will be cancelled dislike Bleach. We're just able to look at it objectively and see that Bleach is not in a good position right now.
I mean I'm a massive fan of Beelzebub, but I wasn't in denial that it was close to be being axed.

 

[Kaizou 10]

That would have been a good argument several years ago.
But now with huge success that completely outshine Bleach like Kuroko no Dragon Basketball Z, AssClass, Haikyuu!, Shokugeki no Soma, and Nisekoi,

And other medium popular series that Jump might want to push more than Bleach now that it's fire is burnt out like World Trigger, Saiki Kusuo no Saian, Isobe Isobee Monogatari, and Soul Catcher(S).

Not to mention if 2-3 of the 4 new series end up being a hit Bleach will not be in a good spot at all. And if by some rare chance all 4 turn out to be hits then Bleach is done for.

I know the situation. As I said before, the editors will not going to pressure Bleach to axe because it is in its final arc, so it going to end no matter what.

And I'm saying this one more time, there really aren't much examples for Jump series which sell like at least 500,000 copies per volume and ranked really low. The series like continued around 1 year or had a tank sale like 200,000 per volume are completely different case as compared to Bleach; Bleach is one of rare case in Jump.

I'm saying this again, if you guys think the ranking is more important than popularity, then Stone Ocean should have axed by like 3 volumes despite of being popular.

 

[101nemesis]

Speaking of Kuroko no Dragon Ball ....whatever you call it.
I have a feeling it should end soon. I cannot see that series extend more. If it does extend, it would lose so much of the intensity it had from this one tournament.


Also, Notice how I mentioned "people" after the first point, instead of "haters"? I didn't want to classify everyone as a hater. I was just too lazy to go and change the first word.

 

[Kaizou 10]

I have a feeling it should end soon. I cannot see that series extend more. If it does extend, it would lose so much of the intensity it had from this one tournament.

I'm not sure about that. I think the current trend for sports series is like focusing on the main character's full high school years, like Daiya no Ace, Yowamushi Pedal, Ahiru no Sora, etc.

So, there is possibility that Kuroko going to start the second year arc.

 

[WyldViolet]

I know the situation. As I said before, the editors will not going to pressure Bleach to axe because it is in its final arc, so it going to end no matter what.

And I'm saying this one more time, there really aren't much examples for Jump series which sell like at least 500,000 copies per volume and ranked really low. The series like continued around 1 year or had a tank sale like 200,000 per volume are completely different case as compared to Bleach; Bleach is one of rare case in Jump.

I'm saying this again, if you guys think the ranking is more important than popularity, then Stone Ocean should have axed by like 3 volumes despite of being popular.

It doesn't matter if its in its final arc.
Shaman King was also in its final arc when it was rushed and then axed, same with Nura.
Yeah, there aren't many Jump series that sell 500k, but there comes a certain point where its sales simply don't matter if its not popular in the magazine.

 

[Josef]

Yes, I understand Bleach has declined. BUT, you have to know that Bleach's popularity hasn't keep declining. As far as I know, I think the decline has stopped now and it is current keeping its popularity (well, it is less than before).

Plus, Bleach is in final arc, so the editors don't really have to pressure Kubo to end by this year. It'll end naturally.

Well I don't know, it can and it can't saying it will end prematurely is not out of the bounds of reason, dunno why it's so hard to consider that possibility.

 

[Kaizou 10]

Shaman King was also in its final arc when it was rushed and then axed, same with Nura.

Both Shaman King and Nurarihyon didn't reach Bleach's level, so their situations are very different from Bleach's case.

Yeah, there aren't many Jump series that sell 500k, but there comes a certain point where its sales simply don't matter if its not popular in the magazine.

I'm saying this again, if you guys think the ranking is more important than popularity, then Stone Ocean (part 6 of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (I feel like people don't know that Stone Ocean is)) should have axed by like 3 volumes since it always stayed in last place (even hit last place for many times).

 

[101nemesis]

I'm not sure about that. I think the current trend for sports series is like focusing on the main character's full high school years, like Daiya no Ace, Yowamushi Pedal, Ahiru no Sora, etc.

So, there is possibility that Kuroko going to start the second year arc.

I'm sure WSJ will try to extend it.

Spoiler

But the series name is " The basketball which Kuroko Plays" and the objective was to show how Kuroko's way of basketball is better than what the generation of miracles used to do. Having beaten everyone except for the last guy, it would lose all purpose if it got extended after having beaten him. And if they lose, then the other matches with the other generation of miracles who were already beaten would lose that intensity since they technically lost to his way of basketball.

Get what I'm trying to say? I just think the series would lose its main purpose.

 

[WyldViolet]

Both Shaman King and Nurarihyon didn't reach Bleach's level, so their situations are very different from Bleach's case.



I'm saying this again, if you guys think the ranking is more important than popularity, then Stone Ocean (part 6 of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (I feel like people don't know that Stone Ocean is)) should have axed by like 3 volumes since it always stayed in last place (even hit last place for many times).

Dude, it doesn't matter if Shaman King and Nura didn't reach Bleach's level, they were still quite popular. Yes, Bleach will get more leeway from Jump than them, but there is a certain point where Bleach's prior success won't matter anymore. Bleach has also been running for much longer than both Nura and Shaman King and so that certain point is quickly approaching if it hasn't already..

And there's no point in bringing up Stone Ocean as it's an entirely separate matter. The JoJo franchise had been running in Jump for forever, it was probably seen as a Kochikame or HxH type of deal where the rankings didn't matter. But eventually they did end up moving the JoJo franchise to another Shueisha magazine, probably due to Araki's age, but I'd suggest its popularity in the magazine also had something to do with it.

You need to set your biases aside and realize that Bleach is not immune from cancellation.

 

[Kaizou 10]

Spoiler

But the series name is " The basketball which Kuroko Plays" and the objective was to show how Kuroko's way of basketball is better than what the generation of miracles used to do. Having beaten everyone except for the last guy, it would lose all purpose if it got extended after having beaten him. And if they lose, then the other matches with the other generation of miracles who were already beaten would lose that intensity since they technically lost to his way of basketball.

Spoiler

Even if Kuroko beat every generations, it doesn't necessary mean that it'll be a repetition. By second year, some characters will retire and there going to be new characters within team, with this the opponent's team will become completely new. Plus, not just Kuroko and Kagami, it is most likely that the other generations also will become stronger than before, so they may introduce new skills. With this, Kuroko still able to continue; plus, I think Inter-High is bigger than Winter Cup.

 

[xi0]

I'm saying this again, if you guys think the ranking is more important than popularity, then Stone Ocean (part 6 of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (I feel like people don't know that Stone Ocean is)) should have axed by like 3 volumes since it always stayed in last place (even hit last place for many times).

How is that the rule, and not an exception? It's the sixth part of one of the most popular franchises in the history of manga...

 

[WyldViolet]

Spoiler

Even if Kuroko beat every generations, it doesn't necessary mean that it'll be a repetition. By second year, some characters will retire and there going to be new characters within team, with this the opponent's team will become completely new. Plus, not just Kuroko and Kagami, it is most likely that the other generations also will become stronger than before, so they may introduce new skills. With this, Kuroko still able to continue; plus, I think Inter-High is bigger than Winter Cup.

Just because it can continue doesn't mean it should.
For a current example look at Yamada and the Seven Witches in WSM. It should have ended recently, yet for some inexplicable reason the mangaka has drawn out the story (like she also did for Yankee) and it just feels forced and unneeded when a perfect ending spot was right there for her.

 

[Teeba]

Beelzebub (CP)

What a color page! Ah, I'll miss Beelzebub. But I'm glad it ended where it did. I don't know why, but it almost looks like Furuichi is the one taking the picture.

 

[101nemesis]

You need to set your biases aside and realize that Bleach is not immune from cancellation.

Right, this is what I wanted to avoid with this discussion.
You telling me THIS would make a little sense, even though you said it when all I was trying to make was a generalized idea of how people usually talk. -_-

However, Kaizou is the last person who would be biased to Bleach. He follows every series in WSJ and I don't think he would be particularly affected if Bleach was cancelled since he isn't a die hard fan.
Edit- I know this because I've argued with him on other forums about Bleach.

What he is stating isn't from his love for Bleach, it's just logical assumption that Bleach is more valuable than what you give it credit for. Nura and Shaman King were not even close to what Bleach was.

If there can be exceptions like for JoJo and for HxH, then there certainly can be an exception for Bleach. It's as simple and plain as that. However many seem to think Bleach won't be an exception because of how unbiased they are towards it.

What a color page! Ah, I'll miss Beelzebub. But I'm glad it ended where it did. I don't know why, but it almost looks like Furuichi is the one taking the picture.

Haha. Must be cause only half of him is seen. I'm gonna miss his character the most, after baby beel of course.