Discussion Smoker Vs Ace, who wouldve really won?

amidaru312

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Lets say that if the match had continue to the death, who would've won?


I think Smoker in my opinion, his form is a lot more free and he can expand in mass and just fills up, while ace is just fire that he is or that he creates.
 

Fox666

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Apparently neither fire or smoke can hurt each other, but Ace can use Haki, so he easily wins this one.
 

VAArmOOs

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Apparently neither fire or smoke can hurt each other, but Ace can use Haki, so he easily wins this one.
Where and when in the manga was showed Ace using or having armament haki?

If he could use it in arabasta they woudn't have hinted the fact that fire vs smoke are useless against each other. Ace would have won almost imediately.
 
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KuroKarasu

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Where and when in the manga was showed Ace using or having armament haki?

If he could use it in arabasta they woudn't have hinted the fact that fire vs smoke are useless against each other. Ace would have won almost imediately.
Armament haki wasn't introduced yet in Arabasta so back then Logia vs. Logia would've almost always resulted in a draw. Ace was probably capable of using it though and he's the better fighter too I think. I'd give this one to Ace!
 

VAArmOOs

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Armament haki wasn't introduced yet in Arabasta so back then Logia vs. Logia would've almost always resulted in a draw. Ace was probably capable of using it though and he's the better fighter too I think. I'd give this one to Ace!
I agree with your first sentence. But Ace never used haki, not even in the war where haki had already been introduced. So how was he capable of using it?
 

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I agree with your first sentence. But Ace never used haki, not even in the war where haki had already been introduced. So how was he capable of using it?
He was the second commander of the Whitebeard pirates. It would be ridiculous if he wasn't capable of using Haki. So what if he didn't use it in the war? A lot of people didn't.

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Portgas_D._Ace#Haki
 

KuroKarasu

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I agree with your first sentence. But Ace never used haki, not even in the war where haki had already been introduced. So how was he capable of using it?
We don't know if he used it in the war. Back then haki didn't turn your arm black. We saw him use Kings haki so he definbetely knew about haki in general. And he was second commander of probably THE strongest crew in the world. It's hard for me to believe that he wasn't capable of using CoA.
 

HereNThere

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Ace has never demonstrated Armament Haki or Observation Haki. We can make all the assumptions we want, but the fact is Oda never showed him using it, so we don't really know and can't say he can use it. Even if Haki didn't turn your arm black pre timeskip, Oda would usually do something to show someone was capable of it, like someone would comment on them knowing it, allowing the person to hit and harm a logia user or Luffy, or something like that. It's not hard for me to believe because I'm pretty sure he was introduced before Haki was truly integrated into the series, so Oda had to keep him somewhat downgraded otherwise he would have created some issues in his past fights. Same with Crocodile. If Crocoboy knew Haki, he would have thrashed Luffy. If Ace knew Haki, he probably would have been able to take down Teach, who is a character who should also know Haki. He knew about it, but not how to use it. But seeing as he had the Yami Yami no Mi, that makes Armament Haki, at least against DF users, redundant.

Anywho, as for the topic, Ace would win anyway because he was stronger than Smoker. Their fruits may have cancelled each other out, but I'm pretty sure Ace could of just physically stomped a hole into Smoker.
 

Fox666

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Ace has never demonstrated Armament Haki or Observation Haki.
We did see Ace blocking Smoker's Logia form back then. That's something.

Same with Crocodile. If Crocoboy knew Haki, he would have thrashed Luffy. If Ace knew Haki, he probably would have been able to take down Teach, who is a character who should also know Haki.
Crocodile said he trained himself to change to his Logia form as a reflex from being attacked. I don't think how that would be possible without CoO. Or maybe Oda was just being creative.

He knew about it, but not how to use it. But seeing as he had the Yami Yami no Mi, that makes Armament Haki, at least against DF users, redundant.
Not necessarily. For example, Aokiji changed the shape of his body to dodge Whitebeard's bisento. That would not work against the Yami Yami no Mi. And from Blackbeard's explanation of his own fruit, the user should be unable to use any Devil Fruit power as long as he is touching them, rather than just hitting them.
 
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kkck

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Given how the manga developed I would go for ace, easily. Ace was a pirate worth 550 mil, a rookie like smoker can't possibly stand to him. Smoker should even have the advantage when it comes to fruits however ace is still the superior fighter in every regard.
 

jamarTheDem

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Ace is a Logia but it's still probable that Haki isn't really needed fight another Logia (without canceling each other attacks) .

If Ace and Smoker didn't have Logia type Devil Fruits it would be a easily win for Ace . Hands down . Ace combat ability is stronger then Smoker , Haki or no Haki . We already seen Ace stopping Smoker effortless already what more can be said .
 

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We did see Ace blocking Smoker's Logia form back then. That's something.
He didn't block it using Haki though, it was his fruit's ability that blocked Smoker's smoke.

Crocodile said he trained himself to change to his Logia form as a reflex from being attacked. I don't think how that would be possible without CoO. Or maybe Oda was just being creative.
I believe that was just Oda demonstrating the degree one could master his fruit if he was determined enough. Crocodile was the most skilled DF user we've seen in the series up to that point and had complete mastery of his fruit's ability. Eneru was the first person we've seen that used CoO in conjunction with his fruit.

Not necessarily. For example, Aokiji changed the shape of his body to dodge Whitebeard's bisento. That would not work against the Yami Yami no Mi. And from Blackbeard's explanation of his own fruit, the user should be unable to use any Devil Fruit power as long as he is touching them, rather than just hitting them.
I thought it functioned like Haki? He managed hit Ace in the neck without completely holding him or touching him. Unless it was a by product of him using Kurozu before hand?
 

amidaru312

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Well if Ace could use haki, then why didn't he use it on BB...or Akainu? instead both times he clashed with him head on with a giant sea of flames.....

I think Ace was just #2 because he was just a great fighter and nothing about haki
 

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At that point Haki wasn't truly showed, aside for CoC, so it might be possible that he had Haki, at least Observation Haki, but then he still got owned in the end. Ace lost to Akainu because Magma is stronger than fire, and to answer the question of the thread, fire should be stronger if not equally as strong as smoke. They should nullify each other.
 

jamarTheDem

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Well if Ace could use haki, then why didn't he use it on BB...or Akainu? instead both times he clashed with him head on with a giant sea of flames.....

I think Ace was just #2 because he was just a great fighter and nothing about haki
BB Devil is OP . It was impossible for Ace to get close to him without his Devil Fruit ability being taken .

Akainu ability was simple their to show how stronger he was then Ace . Sorry to say it like that . He did have Haki it's impossible to clash with New World pirates with only physical strength . Even the weaklings of the NW have some type of Haki . Other commanders had Haki as well . 550 million isn't normal pirates bounty without be considerably strong .


Flame Flame Fruit + Genius Fighting Ability + Haki = Ace , second commanded of the Whitebeard Pirates with a bounty over 500 beri
 

milek

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Ace, by long mile.

Stronger, better, faster then Smoker.

Only thing we didnt see from Ace is haki.
 

VAArmOOs

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BB Devil is OP . It was impossible for Ace to get close to him without his Devil Fruit ability being taken .

Akainu ability was simple their to show how stronger he was then Ace . Sorry to say it like that . He did have Haki it's impossible to clash with New World pirates with only physical strength . Even the weaklings of the NW have some type of Haki . Other commanders had Haki as well . 550 million isn't normal pirates bounty without be considerably strong .


Flame Flame Fruit + Genius Fighting Ability + Haki = Ace , second commanded of the Whitebeard Pirates with a bounty over 500 beri
At that point Haki wasn't truly showed, aside for CoC, so it might be possible that he had Haki, at least Observation Haki, but then he still got owned in the end. Ace lost to Akainu because Magma is stronger than fire, and to answer the question of the thread, fire should be stronger if not equally as strong as smoke. They should nullify each other.
It's like Eefrit said, assume all you want, but the only haki Ace had was Conquerer's Haki (inhereted haki). He never developed or was shown using any of the other types of Haki.

Does it makes sense considering current power levels in One Piece? No, it doesn't because he was, like u all say, 2nd division commander in one of the strongest crews in the world. But unfortunately Oda probably didn't develop haki concept, or at least was unsure about it when Ace fought smoker and Blacbeard. Probably at that time, haki wasn't suppose to become that common. Nevertheless it did, and now Ace seems so downgraded when compared to pirates of much weaker crews and lower bounties.

Because of this u have to force yourselves to believe that Ace could handle Armament and Observation Haki. Maybe Oda made a mistake, but at the same time, why didn't he use it in marineford? Other characters were showcased using haki, even without the "black arm/leg" hint. Why didn't he used it against Akainu?
The thing that bothers me about that fight wasn't the fact that Ace didn't have haki. It was the explanation of their powers interaction. There is no way magma, i.e. melted rock by fire and pressure that doesn't surpass 1600 degree celsius, can surpass the potential highest temperature of fire that can go much higher than magma depending on the material that it is burning. Very lame explanation. He could have simply used haki to kill him.
 

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It's like Eefrit said, assume all you want, but the only haki Ace had was Conquerer's Haki (inhereted haki). He never developed or was shown using any of the other types of Haki.

Does it makes sense considering current power levels in One Piece? No, it doesn't because he was, like u all say, 2nd division commander in one of the strongest crews in the world. But unfortunately Oda probably didn't develop haki concept, or at least was unsure about it when Ace fought smoker and Blacbeard. Probably at that time, haki wasn't suppose to become that common. Nevertheless it did, and now Ace seems so downgraded when compared to pirates of much weaker crews and lower bounties.

Because of this u have to force yourselves to believe that Ace could handle Armament and Observation Haki. Maybe Oda made a mistake, but at the same time, why didn't he use it in marineford? Other characters were showcased using haki, even without the "black arm/leg" hint. Why didn't he used it against Akainu?
The thing that bothers me about that fight wasn't the fact that Ace didn't have haki. It was the explanation of their powers interaction. There is no way magma, i.e. melted rock by fire and pressure that doesn't surpass 1600 degree celsius, can surpass the potential highest temperature of fire that can go much higher than magma depending on the material that it is burning. Very lame explanation. He could have simply used haki to kill him.
Your argument would be valid if Ace tried to stop Akainu. If he had become intangible, Akainu would have passed through him and directly hit Luffy who would be dead. Ace tried to save Luffy at all costs so by taking in his fist he protected Luffy. Besides if Ace wasn't shown to use CoA, then the same could be said about all those who were at Marineford, some were hinted to use it, but alas we don't have any definite proof of them having it. I really don't see how Ace couldn't have known about CoA since he's in the new world and most big shots know about haki, in fact it has become rather common ever since we reached the new world.So it would make sense that he had a least one or two types, and he's not supposed to master it, just know how to use it.Again the concept of Haki while he appeared very early in the manga, wasn't developed to much later, imagine what it would be like if Luffy had learned how to use it before going to Marineford, Ace wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself to save his little brother.
 
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HereNThere

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I really don't see how Ace couldn't have know about CoA since he's in the new world and most big shots know about haki, in fact it has become rather common ever since we reached the new world.So it would make sense that he had a least one or two types, and he's not supposed to master it, just know how to use it.
As much as I would like to believe that, as I mentioned earlier, we have folks like Crocodile and Moriah, both New World Veterans, who were around yet never demonstrated it as they were "in too deep" and already had established fights. I guess we could make an excuse for Moriah and his having a broken will or what not, but the other two wouldn't be that simple I don't think. I personally think that these three weren't given Haki at the time because Oda wanted to avoid an inconsistency in the story. I'm sure he would get asked "Why didn't soandso use Haki and at the time if he knew it?" quite often.
 
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As much as I would like to believe that, as I mentioned earlier, we have folks like Crocodile and Moriah, both New World Veterans, who were around yet never demonstrated it as they were "in too deep" and already had established fights. I guess we could make an excuse for Moriah and his having a broken will or what not, but the other two wouldn't be that simple I don't think. I personally think that these three weren't given Haki at the time because Oda wanted to avoid an inconsistency in the story. I'm sure he would get asked "Why didn't soandso use Haki and at the time if he knew it?" quite often.
I couldn't care less for Moria, what a waste of character, but Crocodile.... it actually always bugged me how he appears not to have Haki, if you think about it it would have allowed him to be more efficient with his DF. Nevertheless I think being part of one of the Yonko's crew makes you stronger than some shichibukai. Again this might have been done purposely by Oda so it doesn't matter that much.
 
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