Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Fox666]

That rabbit would have been a much better Juubi...

 

[Rikudobito]

That rabbit would have been a much better Juubi...

Yes, definitely. War arc Ten-Tails has been a major disappointment, not just in terms of design but also in terms of power ; even Hashirama was able to restrain its movements with his Gates of the great god ; which a reborn Madara was easily able to get free from. Hashirama was strong I agree and was reverred as the God of Shinobi - true but still, the Ten-Tails was viewed as the progenitor of everything at that time and a god who created countries and swallowed the oceans. ( So full of hype )

The Rabbit Ten-Tails is much much much stronger than War arc Ten-Tails in the sense that it has more of Kurama's and Gyuki's chakra but it also has the chakra of everyone who was trapped in IT ( the combined chakra of those people was stated to surpass even that of the Ten-Tails [ war arc ] according to Naruto )

Seems like its feats ( of course that of War arc Ten-Tails ) could not back up its hype. Even Naruto would take a dump on it while he is at full power and the reasons are obvious. He would bombard it with his strongest attacks and while shielding himself with his Truthseeker Orbs, War Arc Ten-Tails has nothing that can land a scratch on him ; its Tailed Beast Bomb would be tanked by the Truthseekers. While weakened, Naruto would wait for the right moment to extract the Tailed Beasts from it and it's over. Although, Rabbit Ten-Tails is a completely different story lol and even if it was a destabilised form of the Ten-Tails, I must admit that it had a much better design overall and it could inspire much more fear.

 

[Holt]

It was prolly that weak because it lacked kyuubi and hachibi. It only had like 2% of their chakra. Those are the two strongest and most important. For something in the weak state, I think it did pretty well. It tossed kyuubi and hachibi around, deflected a bijuudama from bee with a finger and its bijuu dama would have wiped out the alliance if minato hadn't gotten there in time.
It suffered from lack of thinking ability and also missing two very important parts.

 

[Fox666]

Ehhh, then we would start to talk about an inconsistent power balance...

A normal duo from Akatsuki is able to handle one of the Bijuu on their own, and we have seen some Kages like Sarutobi or the Third Raikage restraining a Bijuu to some extend. So it doesn't seems a Bijuu has god-like powers.

It has been said that a Bijuu becomes stronger when they are not mindless beasts but their powers are being used by a Jinchuuriki. That is if we ignore that the Bijuu are not mindless and that even Kakashi was following Kurama's orders. Not to mention that we have seen Shukaku using a hand-seal to perform a Jutsu.

But then we should forget that the Bijuu do have god-like powers. Even Hashirama or Madara seems concerned about their power. Hashirama used the Bijuu to create a balance beetween villages, proving the unmatched power of the Bijuu. If Hashirama had more power than a Bijuu, he should be able to keep the villages in check on his own. And after Madara made five Kages together look like children, his Susano'o evolved into a whole new level, which Madara descibred as having a power that's a match for a Bijuu.

Except that the Bijuu were tossed around by Hashirama or Madara as if they were nothing. Hashirama's giant Buddha statue grabbed Kurama as if it was a pet rat. And the nine Bijuu combined couldn't kill Madara, who knocked down all of them with a single Jutsu.

But Kurama was an equal match for Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o, who should be even more powerfull than Madara's... oh well.

Those are the two strongest and most important.

A little correction: The number of tails doesn't necessarily means more power. If we go by their battle, Son Goku should be stronger than Gyuki.

 

[Holt]

A little correction: The number of tails doesn't necessarily means more power. If we go by their battle, Son Goku should be stronger than Gyuki.

Yeah I know that. Shukaku mentioned that at one point. I have doubts anyway, afterall kyuubi has nothing special but half of it was mopping the other bijuu (which have special abilities) around. 1-7 have Kekkei genkai or other unique abilities, but 8 and 9 seem to be powerhouses so I do think strength is in order of tail. Kyuubi also mentioned that hachibi should be next strongest after him.
Doesn't matter though.

In the case of the jyuubi however, its important as those two have the largest chakra. Both of them alone prolly make atleast 50% of the jyuubi's power. I mean full kyuubi (not just yin or yang side) and hachibi.

 

[Rikudobito]

Ehhh, then we would start to talk about an inconsistent power balance...

A normal duo from Akatsuki is able to handle one of the Bijuu on their own, and we have seen some Kages like Sarutobi or the Third Raikage restraining a Bijuu to some extend. So it doesn't seems a Bijuu has god-like powers.

It has been said that a Bijuu becomes stronger when they are not mindless beasts but their powers are being used by a Jinchuuriki. That is if we ignore that the Bijuu are not mindless and that even Kakashi was following Kurama's orders. Not to mention that we have seen Shukaku using a hand-seal to perform a Jutsu.

But then we should forget that the Bijuu do have god-like powers. Even Hashirama or Madara seems concerned about their power. Hashirama used the Bijuu to create a balance beetween villages, proving the unmatched power of the Bijuu. If Hashirama had more power than a Bijuu, he should be able to keep the villages in check on his own. And after Madara made five Kages together look like children, his Susano'o evolved into a whole new level, which Madara descibred as having a power that's a match for a Bijuu.

Except that the Bijuu were tossed around by Hashirama or Madara as if they were nothing. Hashirama's giant Buddha statue grabbed Kurama as if it was a pet rat. And the nine Bijuu combined couldn't kill Madara, who knocked down all of them with a single Jutsu.

But Kurama was an equal match for Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o, who should be even more powerfull than Madara's... oh well.

Tbh, I find it quite hard to believe that the Ten-Tails is the aggregate of the combined powers of all Tailed Beasts because it does not seem like so. If it was the case then both Kurama and Gyuki would never have been thrashed despite the former of these two being only at half of its orginal power AND after also syncing with Naruto's own chakra. ( something which people usually seem to forget )

Though the reason the avatar of Yang Kurama was able to go toe to toe with Sasuke's Complete Body Susano'o is simple. Even though Kurama was only at half strength, Naruto was also using his ordinary Sage Mode ( judging by his eyes ) + Six Paths Sage Mode/Sage of Six Paths Mode so this would amplify Yang Kurama's original power. On the other hand, Sasuke was also enhancing his Susano'o via his Rinnegan which is imbued with Six Paths chakra. Madara's Complete Body Susano'o cut two mountains with ease but Sasuke was able to cut down Meteors which dwarfed even mountain ranges by quite a margin.

---------- Post added at 08:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 AM ----------

It was prolly that weak because it lacked kyuubi and hachibi. It only had like 2% of their chakra. Those are the two strongest and most important. For something in the weak state, I think it did pretty well. It tossed kyuubi and hachibi around, deflected a bijuudama from bee with a finger and its bijuu dama would have wiped out the alliance if minato hadn't gotten there in time.
It suffered from lack of thinking ability and also missing two very important parts.

Yeah, it did well at first. It succeeded in instilling fear in the heart of the alliance until the Hokage arrived. To me, Hashirama humiliated it and even Minato was able to teleport away its strongest attack ; the Tailed Beast Ball. So far, its coolest ability had to be the Tenpenchii by quite a mile IMO.

If they didn't arrive though, the alliance would have been dead.

 

[Holt]

Yeah. Kishi had to make the hokages look good after all the trouble to bring them back and the hype. True tenpenchi was dangerous. There was the missile bijuudama thing.
But it notably was never at full power. I have to wonder how disastrous things would have been had it been complete and at max power.

 

[docexe]

Honestly, I find the power levels of both Madara and Hashirama in the war very problematic: They break the power curve of the manga completely (which was already in bad shape after Pain) and don’t really make sense in relation to anything that was shown before them. The fact that they are reincarnations/transmigrants of Indra and Ashura seems like the only explanation of why they were so powerful and had abilities that no other Shinobi possessed, including those that allowed them to tame the bijuu so easily.

The final power levels of both Naruto and Sasuke are also very problematic, but at least there is the Sage’s intervention as a way to hand wave it.

 

[Holt]

In their defence, it wasn't from the war that started. Since original naruto its been pretty much common knowledge that Madara and Hashirama were in their own leagues. I actually see nothing wrong about them in the war. The biggest thing for Madara was that he was re animated and Kabuto attached hashirama's face and cells to him. Its was basically unlimited power and immortality. Which was the case for all the edo tensei.
If he was actually brought back via rinne tensei, things would have gone very differently IMO.

Firstly he wouldn't have done the meteor thing because he'd die as well. He wouldn't have unlimited chakra and would have actually been seriously hurt. The kages gave him significant injuries a number of times. He wouldn't have had his rinnegan etc etc.

Hashirama never looked broken or unrealistically OP IMO.

---------- Post added at 11:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

The fact that they are reincarnations/transmigrants of Indra and Ashura seems like the only explanation of why they were so powerful and had abilities that no other Shinobi possessed, including those that allowed them to tame the bijuu so easily.

Also I don't agree with the bolded part at all. Madara's previous strength was EMS, logically explained to come about by taking anothers MS. Getting MS itself was not unique as most of the notable sharigan users had it.
Next was his rinnegan. Also logically explained to come about by mixing senju and uchiha powers. The sharingan itself is a bijuu Tamer by nature.

As for hashirama, he had the mokuton Kekkei genkai. Not surprising he is the only one we know (asides yamato but that's due to the Hashirama's cells) as most of the KG users we were introduced to were unique and hardly had others capable of replicating their feats (eg kimmimaro, haku, guren, ukon/sakon, those from the seven swordsmen etc). His feats basically revolved around his KG. He was extremely proficient and skilled in it (even Madara couldn't replicate half of his feats). His other strength was sage mode, which as you know a number of others possess.

Remember 3rd Raikage went toe to toe with hachibi and drew (only because he was exhausted and emerged unscathed except only a self inflicted injury). Even akatsuki members went around capturing bijuu. Sometimes only one member achieved the feat even though they move in two's (like kisame capturing son goku) alone.

 

[docexe]

I enunciated that poorly. More accurately would have been to say “abilities that no other shinobi possessed before they unlocked them”. Remember that Madara was mentioned to be the first person who developed a Magenkyo Sharingan (which admittedly doesn’t makes much sense later, given how the only requirement is intense grief after losing someone close to you which should have happened a lot during the warring clans time, but I digress) and the first to reawaken the Rinnegan after the Sage. Meanwhile no other shinobi but Hashirama has developed the Mokuton in a “natural” way, all the other Mokuton users have his cells implanted which is a bit extreme.

And while it’s true that other people have defeated bijuu, it’s… well, kind of ridiculous how easy it was for Madara to capture all the nine in an instant, even the most powerful ones. It’s the same with Hashirama, given how he manhandled Kurama with the Budha of the Thousand arms. Other characters tended to struggle fighting the tailed beasts, otherwise it would not make sense for them to be so dreaded.

It’s true Hashirama and Madara were mentioned in part I to be on a tier of their own, but I think the author got too far with that and it broke the power curve. Especially because when we saw Hashirama fighting Hiruzen after Orochimaru summoned him and Tobirama with the Edo Tensei, he wasn’t anywhere close to the level he displayed later.

It’s the same with Madara after being resurrected by the Rinne Tensei. Before that, I used to believe that the reason why he could defeat all the kage was specifically because he was turned into an immortal zombie with limitless stamina. But after he got properly resurrected and pawned everyone despite being blind/having only one Rinnegan …his power level just got from over the top to flat out nonsensical -_-.

 

[Holt]

Spoiler

I enunciated that poorly. More accurately would have been to say “abilities that no other shinobi possessed before they unlocked them”. Remember that Madara was mentioned to be the first person who developed a Magenkyo Sharingan (which admittedly doesn’t makes much sense later, given how the only requirement is intense grief after losing someone close to you which should have happened a lot during the warring clans time, but I digress) and the first to reawaken the Rinnegan after the Sage. Meanwhile no other shinobi but Hashirama has developed the Mokuton in a “natural” way, all the other Mokuton users have his cells implanted which is a bit extreme.

And while it’s true that other people have defeated bijuu, it’s… well, kind of ridiculous how easy it was for Madara to capture all the nine in an instant, even the most powerful ones. It’s the same with Hashirama, given how he manhandled Kurama with the Budha of the Thousand arms. Other characters tended to struggle fighting the tailed beasts, otherwise it would not make sense for them to be so dreaded.

It’s true Hashirama and Madara were mentioned in part I to be on a tier of their own, but I think the author got too far with that and it broke the power curve. Especially because when we saw Hashirama fighting Hiruzen after Orochimaru summoned him and Tobirama with the Edo Tensei, he wasn’t anywhere close to the level he displayed later.

It’s the same with Madara after being resurrected by the Rinne Tensei. Before that, I used to believe that the reason why he could defeat all the kage was specifically because he was turned into an immortal zombie with limitless stamina. But after he got properly resurrected and pawned everyone despite being blind/having only one Rinnegan …his power level just got from over the top to flat out nonsensical -_-.

I do agree that they were indeed very powerful but again I disagree with some things.
Madara wasn't the first. Indra awakened it before him. Also his brother awakened it around the same time he did. Its also not something so simple. Remember sasuke witnessed his family get killed a number of times (albeit via Itachis genjutsu). Itachi also died right infront of him without the eyes awakening. Ultimately it was the truth about itachi that provoked the emotion to awaken the eyes. There needs to be deep connection and meaning behind the death. In wars, people hardly get attached. The battlefield is a dreadful place and most have to shut out emotions so they can survive. Its not unbelievable that people didn't awaken the eyes.

As for the rinnegan, it is an unnatural phenomenon. The only reason Madara was able to awaken it was because black zetsu manipulated the info on the uchiha tablet thereby leading madara to acquire part of hashirama. Even then it didn't awaken until old age.

I also explained about kekkai genkai. The users mostly do not have others capable of using them. Its possible another senju could acquired that ability after hashirama however the senju got extremely diluted and supposedly wiped out. No one ever acquired Kimmimaro's bone KG for example (except Kabuyo who achieved it via transplanting the former's cells), same for haku, same for those seven swordsmen, guren's crystals etc. The only KG we see replicated are those of doujutsu type (sharingan, byakugan) in their respective clans and perhaps few others which are also passed down via clan. Then there's oonoki and Muu's dust release which the latter passed down to oonoki. So its not a big deal he is the only know natural mokuton user.

To the third point, Madara actually got his ass so trashed by the bijuu that black zetsu mocked him. In the end, he didn't defeat them but merely sealed them by using the chains of the gedo to capture them. Obito did the same while using them as pein.

As for Hashirama, the truth is that we only saw snippets of the entire fight. That fight lasted an entire day (hashirama said so). His budda statue was significantly larger than the kyuubi so its to be expected. Kushina (although weakened from extraction of kyuubi) could still use her adamantine chains to hold down the kyuubi. Minato and kushina had no troubles with the kyuubi at all. The only problem came when minato sealed half thereby causing the kyuubi to shrink which loosened the grip of kushina's chain.

As for the hashirama and tobirama that Orochimaru revived to fight hiruzen, they weren't anywhere near their full power. Even after the upgrade and Orochimaru using zetsu as the sacrifice in the war, they weren't still at full power as tobirama (who created the jutsu) stated. He only said they were close to the fill power.

Actually it wasn't that way. He was revived after obitos defeat. Most of them weren't at full power. He's only real proper fight was with tobirama, however he was always superior to him so nothing changed. Like I said earlier, he got thrashed by the bijuu before regaining a rinnegan and sealing them (taking out naruto by removing kyuubi). He was also understandably stronger than sasuke so he bested him. He had subdued hashirama by using the black chakra rods, he also did the same to tobirama. You also need to remember that he stole hashirama senjutsu and cells so he had access to healing. He also stole chakra shrouds from fodder before starting out.
Madara picked his time wisely. There was next to no one to oppose him when he revived and those there were sustainably weakened from their previous battles.

Both madara and hashirama were the first reincarnates of the indra/ashura brothers. They grew up in an era of war and thus benefited from this (in terms of fighting ability). While I understand your point, I don't believe they were as broken as you suggest.
Their strength was well established from the early days of the manga. Hashirama was called the god of shinobi and madara could only be defeated by him. Strong enough that just the thought of madara being at the helm of akatsuki caused the shinobi to form an alliance.

 

[Impossibility]

I also explained about kekkai genkai. The users mostly do not have others capable of using them. Its possible another senju could acquired that ability after hashirama however the senju got extremely diluted and supposedly wiped out. No one ever acquired Kimmimaro's bone KG for example (except Kabuyo who achieved it via transplanting the former's cells), same for haku, same for those seven swordsmen, guren's crystals etc. The only KG we see replicated are those of doujutsu type (sharingan, byakugan) in their respective clans and perhaps few others which are also passed down via clan. Then there's oonoki and Muu's dust release which the latter passed down to oonoki. So its not a big deal he is the only know natural mokuton user.

I just want to point out that Hashirama's Mokuton is quite different from the other examples. Kimimaro was simply the last surviving member of a clan with individuals capable of Shikotsumyaku. His ability is rare amongst his clan, yet it isn't unique... the manga provides for that. Haku, likewise, was presumably one of the last, if not the last, remaining member of the Yuki clan after Kiri wiped out many of the KG clans. Their abilities were attributed to their clans. Hashirama's Mokuton is just that... a KG that's apparently unique to and wholly attributed to Hashirama rather than a clan. We know what the Senju's specific trait was; their strong bodies, in particular their chakra and life force... it wasn't Mokuton. Even the progenitor of the clan, Ashura, wasn't a Mokuton user.

 

[Holt]

I just want to point out that Hashirama's Mokuton is quite different from the other examples. Kimimaro was simply the last surviving member of a clan with individuals capable of Shikotsumyaku. His ability is rare amongst his clan, yet it isn't unique... the manga provides for that. Haku, likewise, was presumably one of the last, if not the last, remaining member of the Yuki clan after Kiri wiped out many of the KG clans. Their abilities were attributed to their clans. Hashirama's Mokuton is just that... a KG that's apparently unique to and wholly attributed to Hashirama rather than a clan. We know what the Senju's specific trait was; their strong bodies, in particular their chakra and life force... it wasn't Mokuton. Even the progenitor of the clan, Ashura, wasn't a Mokuton user.

That's a good point. I guess I overlooked that. Still kekkai genkai is bloodline ability IIRC. Supposedly passed down via genes. I mentioned earlier that the senju apparently died out or something so there wasn't a chance for the ability to get passed down. KG is rare even among the clans they are attributed to.

 

[docexe]

I do agree that they were indeed very powerful but again I disagree with some things.

Madara wasn't the first. Indra awakened it before him. Also his brother awakened it around the same time he did. Its also not something so simple. Remember sasuke witnessed his family get killed a number of times (albeit via Itachis genjutsu). Itachi also died right infront of him without the eyes awakening. Ultimately it was the truth about itachi that provoked the emotion to awaken the eyes. There needs to be deep connection and meaning behind the death. In wars, people hardly get attached. The battlefield is a dreadful place and most have to shut out emotions so they can survive. Its not unbelievable that people didn't awaken the eyes.

As for the rinnegan, it is an unnatural phenomenon. The only reason Madara was able to awaken it was because black zetsu manipulated the info on the uchiha tablet thereby leading madara to acquire part of hashirama. Even then it didn't awaken until old age.

I also explained about kekkai genkai. The users mostly do not have others capable of using them. Its possible another senju could acquired that ability after hashirama however the senju got extremely diluted and supposedly wiped out. No one ever acquired Kimmimaro's bone KG for example (except Kabuyo who achieved it via transplanting the former's cells), same for haku, same for those seven swordsmen, guren's crystals etc. The only KG we see replicated are those of doujutsu type (sharingan, byakugan) in their respective clans and perhaps few others which are also passed down via clan. Then there's oonoki and Muu's dust release which the latter passed down to oonoki. So its not a big deal he is the only know natural mokuton user.

To the third point, Madara actually got his ass so trashed by the bijuu that black zetsu mocked him. In the end, he didn't defeat them but merely sealed them by using the chains of the gedo to capture them. Obito did the same while using them as pein.

As for Hashirama, the truth is that we only saw snippets of the entire fight. That fight lasted an entire day (hashirama said so). His budda statue was significantly larger than the kyuubi so its to be expected. Kushina (although weakened from extraction of kyuubi) could still use her adamantine chains to hold down the kyuubi. Minato and kushina had no troubles with the kyuubi at all. The only problem came when minato sealed half thereby causing the kyuubi to shrink which loosened the grip of kushina's chain.

As for the hashirama and tobirama that Orochimaru revived to fight hiruzen, they weren't anywhere near their full power. Even after the upgrade and Orochimaru using zetsu as the sacrifice in the war, they weren't still at full power as tobirama (who created the jutsu) stated. He only said they were close to the fill power.

I just want to point out that Hashirama's Mokuton is quite different from the other examples. Kimimaro was simply the last surviving member of a clan with individuals capable of Shikotsumyaku. His ability is rare amongst his clan, yet it isn't unique... the manga provides for that. Haku, likewise, was presumably one of the last, if not the last, remaining member of the Yuki clan after Kiri wiped out many of the KG clans. Their abilities were attributed to their clans. Hashirama's Mokuton is just that... a KG that's apparently unique to and wholly attributed to Hashirama rather than a clan. We know what the Senju's specific trait was; their strong bodies, in particular their chakra and life force... it wasn't Mokuton. Even the progenitor of the clan, Ashura, wasn't a Mokuton user.

That's a good point. I guess I overlooked that. Still kekkai genkai is bloodline ability IIRC. Supposedly passed down via genes. I mentioned earlier that the senju apparently died out or something so there wasn't a chance for the ability to get passed down. KG is rare even among the clans they are attributed to.

You make fair points here, so I’m not going to contend those.

Still, I maintain that Madara’s power level at the point of his Rinne Tensei resurrection was completely broken.

Yes he got a trashing from the bijuu. A trashing that was essentially negated because: a) it didn’t even weaken or stop him at all, b) he then regenerated all the damage. Ok, that might still make some sense, given that as you pointed out he was using Hashirama’s regenerating powers from his cells, implanted a new arm from Zetsu and absorbed some of the chakra shrouds of weaker ninja. The true ridiculous part is how he then proceeded to single-handedly knock down all the bijuu with a single punch from the Limbo Hengoku (how in hell a single clone from another dimension achieved that in the allotted duration of the technique?), then sealed them almost instantly with the Gedo Mazo (Obito did that before only because the bijuu were still chained to the statue, they were not free).

Not to mention he extracted Kurama and Gyuuki from Naruto and Bee almost instantly, when previously it either took the weakening of the seal to free a bijuu from his container (like it happened during Kushina’s pregnancy), the host willingly breaking the seal, or a ritual that required nine high-level ninja (one of them even a Rinnegan user with incredibly destructive powers) and took three days to complete. The closest thing to something like that ever happening was when Naruto freed the bijuu from Obito, but that required him to link the fragments of chakra the tailed beast had given him before, plus the help of the entire Shinobi Alliance.

Madara also restrained Hashirama with chakra spires that literally came out of nowhere (when did he summon them? In the transition between chapters Hashirama was still free when Madara was resurrected and it’s never show how he restrained him). Even how he defeated Tobirama and Sasuke is contentious. Yes he was portrayed as better than them, but the way he defeated them made it look effortlessly, Sasuke at least had a brief swordfight with him before.

I must also point out that the “weakened and tired” explanation can’t really apply to Hashirama and Tobirama because… well, immortal zombies with unlimited stamina.

Now, don’t misunderstand me. I have tried to rationalize a lot of things in the past regarding the manga that at first glance don’t make much sense or that look contradictory but can still be explained based on other information that the manga provides or with some interpretation. But when something doesn’t really makes sense… well, it just doesn’t make sense.

Also, just a brief correction: Madara and Hashirama weren’t the first reincarnations of Indra and Ashura, just the previous ones before Naruto and Sasuke.

 

[Holt]

You make fair points here, so I’m not going to contend those.

Still, I maintain that Madara’s power level at the point of his Rinne Tensei resurrection was completely broken.

Yes he got a trashing from the bijuu. A trashing that was essentially negated because: a) it didn’t even weaken or stop him at all, b) he then regenerated all the damage. Ok, that might still make some sense, given that as you pointed out he was using Hashirama’s regenerating powers from his cells, implanted a new arm from Zetsu and absorbed some of the chakra shrouds of weaker ninja. The true ridiculous part is how he then proceeded to single-handedly knock down all the bijuu with a single punch from the Limbo Hengoku (how in hell a single clone from another dimension achieved that in the allotted duration of the technique?), then sealed them almost instantly with the Gedo Mazo (Obito did that before only because the bijuu were still chained to the statue, they were not free).

Not to mention he extracted Kurama and Gyuuki from Naruto and Bee almost instantly, when previously it either took the weakening of the seal to free a bijuu from his container (like it happened during Kushina’s pregnancy), the host willingly breaking the seal, or a ritual that required nine high-level ninja (one of them even a Rinnegan user with incredibly destructive powers) and took three days to complete. The closest thing to something like that ever happening was when Naruto freed the bijuu from Obito, but that required him to link the fragments of chakra the tailed beast had given him before, plus the help of the entire Shinobi Alliance.

Madara also restrained Hashirama with chakra spires that literally came out of nowhere (when did he summon them? In the transition between chapters Hashirama was still free when Madara was resurrected and it’s never show how he restrained him). Even how he defeated Tobirama and Sasuke is contentious. Yes he was portrayed as better than them, but the way he defeated them made it look effortlessly, Sasuke at least had a brief swordfight with him before.

I must also point out that the “weakened and tired” explanation can’t really apply to Hashirama and Tobirama because… well, immortal zombies with unlimited stamina.

Now, don’t misunderstand me. I have tried to rationalize a lot of things in the past regarding the manga that at first glance don’t make much sense or that look contradictory but can still be explained based on other information that the manga provides or with some interpretation. But when something doesn’t really makes sense… well, it just doesn’t make sense.

Also, just a brief correction: Madara and Hashirama weren’t the first reincarnations of Indra and Ashura, just the previous ones before Naruto and Sasuke.

Limbo hengoku was different from just limbo (as the name implies) however we never got an explanation so that was pretty silly.

Another defence, the sealing technique akatsuki used was visibly different from the chains. We never saw nagato himself seal them. Deva can't use those chains. Rather he shouldn't be able to. Its also possible that the prior sealing of the bijuu in the gedo made it easier to re seal. Just like how resealing minato's kyuubi in naruto was significantly easier (minato was just going to pass it, obito did same). Also mastery counts, see how difficult for hiruzen to seal just Orochimaru's arms compared to how minato sealed kyuubi in both naruto and himself using the same technique.

Hashirama already had the rods in his back when they fought as edo. When madara was revived, he only had to run hks chakra through it to immobilse him. Its the same thing Nagato did to naruto via deva.

When I said weakened and tired, I was referring to naruto, sasuke and the others. Defeating obito took its toll on them.
However even edo tensei's seem to run low on chakra/stamina for a while. Minato said he didn't have enough chakra due to a previous attack to tobirama at one point.

Yes my bad, they're were the first known so a bar had to be set.

I understand what you're saying. There were also periods when it didn't make sense. However I don't think he was too broken. If he was just a little strong, an alliance wouldn't be needed.
He also got significant cheat mods (Rinnegan and Hashirama's cells/senjutsu chakra). His power didn't go unexplained. An alive EMS madara wouldn't have survived the gokage for example. Which was supposed to be his natural limit. Nagato was also absurdly powerful.

Its a matter of opinion though.

 

[Rikudobito]

Madara with a single Rinnegan was a very skilled fighter. A much better fighter than his Ten-Tails' host version. He thrashed all of his opponents like in less than one minute. ( except the Tailed Beasts )
I think he should have never become the Ten-Tails' host but if he didn't, Naruto alone with his Sage power-up ( the one who showed up after Madara vs Guy and before his Six Paths Senjutsu blossomed ) would have defeated him. ( Edit :- No, he would have outright killed him )

 

[docexe]

Limbo hengoku was different from just limbo (as the name implies) however we never got an explanation so that was pretty silly.

Another defence, the sealing technique akatsuki used was visibly different from the chains. We never saw nagato himself seal them. Deva can't use those chains. Rather he shouldn't be able to. Its also possible that the prior sealing of the bijuu in the gedo made it easier to re seal. Just like how resealing minato's kyuubi in naruto was significantly easier (minato was just going to pass it, obito did same). Also mastery counts, see how difficult for hiruzen to seal just Orochimaru's arms compared to how minato sealed kyuubi in both naruto and himself using the same technique.

Hashirama already had the rods in his back when they fought as edo. When madara was revived, he only had to run hks chakra through it to immobilse him. Its the same thing Nagato did to naruto via deva.

When I said weakened and tired, I was referring to naruto, sasuke and the others. Defeating obito took its toll on them.
However even edo tensei's seem to run low on chakra/stamina for a while. Minato said he didn't have enough chakra due to a previous attack to tobirama at one point.

Yes my bad, they're were the first known so a bar had to be set.

I understand what you're saying. There were also periods when it didn't make sense. However I don't think he was too broken. If he was just a little strong, an alliance wouldn't be needed.
He also got significant cheat mods (Rinnegan and Hashirama's cells/senjutsu chakra). His power didn't go unexplained. An alive EMS madara wouldn't have survived the gokage for example. Which was supposed to be his natural limit. Nagato was also absurdly powerful.

Its a matter of opinion though.

Ok, I have to reread that chapter because I don’t remember Hashirama having the chakra rods.

In any case, I understand Madara had to be very powerful or otherwise the forming of the Alliance would not be justified. I just think the author went too far with it and it eventually broke my suspension of disbelief. Very few things in the manga had done that before.

Madara with a single Rinnegan was a very skilled fighter. A much better fighter than his Ten-Tails' host version. He thrashed all of his opponents like in less than one minute. ( except the Tailed Beasts )
I think he should have never become the Ten-Tails' host but if he didn't, Naruto alone with his Sage power-up ( the one who showed up after Madara vs Guy and before his Six Paths Senjutsu blossomed ) would have defeated him. ( Edit :- No, he would have outright killed him )

Yes, it’s kind of ridiculous but Madara actually became a worse fighter after he turned into the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki. Obito showed way more creativity and competence when using the Gudoudama and Ten Tails power in general.

On the other hand, in hindsight, it’s pretty clear that by that point he wasn’t anything else but a plot device to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi and raise the stakes for the final battle between Naruto and Sasuke, given how quickly and anticlimactically the author got rid of him afterwards.

 

[Zehahaha]

Yes, it’s kind of ridiculous but Madara actually became a worse fighter after he turned into the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki. Obito showed way more creativity and competence when using the Gudoudama and Ten Tails power in general.

On the other hand, in hindsight, it’s pretty clear that by that point he wasn’t anything else but a plot device to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi and raise the stakes for the final battle between Naruto and Sasuke, given how quickly and anticlimactically the author got rid of him afterwards.

That's bullshit and you guys know it, absolutely no way the Alliance could've lost against Madara with one Rinnegan, in fact, he'd lose easily had he run into Gai back then

Madara as the Ten Tail jinchuuriki was better, the only problem is that he faced Semi gods (Naruto/Sasuke), and even with that, he managed to actually activated Mugen Tsukiyomi something Obito couldn't do at all

It's not that Madara became worse while being Jinchuuriki, it's just that he faced two monsters and could've won IMO had he focused on killing them instead of going for the Mugen Tsukiyomi

 

[M3J]

Madara was so broken that he'd have likely solo'd Kaguya, whether as Edo Tensei or alive, before becoming the Juubi host. Despite what people like to claim, I highly doubt Naruto and Sasuke at their full power would have stood a chance against Madara if plot shield was not involved.

 

[docexe]

That's bullshit and you guys know it, absolutely no way the Alliance could've lost against Madara with one Rinnegan, in fact, he'd lose easily had he run into Gai back then

Madara as the Ten Tail jinchuuriki was better, the only problem is that he faced Semi gods (Naruto/Sasuke), and even with that, he managed to actually activated Mugen Tsukiyomi something Obito couldn't do at all

It's not that Madara became worse while being Jinchuuriki, it's just that he faced two monsters and could've won IMO had he focused on killing them instead of going for the Mugen Tsukiyomi

When I mean worse fighter I don’t mean that he got weaker. In terms of raw power he was still a monster, but he looked way less skillful than he did before acquiring the Ten Tails. Instead of something pragmatic like using any of the “instant kill” Rinnegan techniques that he displayed before or, I don’t know, trapping his enemies in a barrier then using the guoudama as a nuke to blow them up (like Obito did), he just keep using them as miniature projectiles or as a shield, relying mostly on his enhanced strength and speed to fight.

And he wasn’t defeating his enemies effortlessly anymore like he was doing just minutes before, despite said opponents being weaker than him. Guy took him completely by surprise just by entering the 7th gate, and he was put completely on the defensive when Guy released the 8th gate. Minato (without arms), Gaara, Kakashi and almost death Obito either duped him or disrupted his attacks.

And you have to wonder why he didn’t just restart the casting of the Infinite Tsukuyomi through the flower of the God Tree once he resealed all the bijuu, rather than waiting till he had the other Rinnegan and other half of Kurama to cast the technique himself.

To a degree I understand why the author nerfed him: If he still displayed the skill level he showed before, the series would have ended then and then with his victory. But still, by that point, all the things he was doing were only because the plot mandated them.

For example: In order to even the playing field to fend off the Rikudo empowered Naruto and Sasuke while he casted the Infinite Tsukuyomi, he had to reabsorb the God Tree and get the other Rinnegan. The first one he figured out only after a voice from nowhere (likely Kaguya) told him to do it. In order to get the second one, he had to travel to Obito’s dimension so he ripped the other Kamui eye from Kakashi. The thing is: Obito lost the ability to use Kamui when he became the Ten Tails host, yet Madara could still somehow use it.

And once the Infinite Tsukuyomi was casted, his plot armor was revoked and he was unceremoniously thrown under the bus.