Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Holt]

The thing is: Obito lost the ability to use Kamui when he became the Ten Tails host, yet Madara could still somehow use it.

You know I actually just realized that. Somehow I overlooked it all that while. For starters, they weren't even his eyes. Being the juubi Jin should have negated the ability to use it. Wow This can't be defended.

 

[Fox666]

The only reason I can think of is because Madara spit the Sage artifacts?

 

[Rikudobito]

Madara was so broken that he'd have likely solo'd Kaguya, whether as Edo Tensei or alive, before becoming the Juubi host. Despite what people like to claim, I highly doubt Naruto and Sasuke at their full power would have stood a chance against Madara if plot shield was not involved.

He showed skills which he didn't as a Ten-Tails Jin or perhaps he wasn't allowed to do so by his opponents.
It was basically like this ; EDO Madara < Alive SM Madara < One-Eyed Rinnegan SM Madara <<< Ten-Tails' Host Madara ( with 1 Rinnegan ) <<< Shinju Madara ( with 1 Rinnegan ) << Shinju Madara ( with a pair of Rinnegan )
And... Kaguya is easily way above Shinju Madara. Even as a Madara fan, I have to admit that Alive SM Madara or EDO Madara don't stand a chance.
Naruto before using Six Paths SM outright overwhelmed him and he was forced into absorbing the Shinju. ( Which was his biggest mistake and lead to his downfall but still, he gained a huge power-up in doing so )

You have to admit it dude, plot shield prevailed more against Kaguya than against Madara. She could have killed them at any time and that was against a Naruto & Sasuke who actually got better with new powers as time marched on. Naruto & Sasuke got rid of Madara's strongest attacks and yet at that time, Naruto did not even know that he could fly ( he could have prevented Madara from awakening his Third Eye if he could by simply catching him in mid-air ) and use his Truthseeker Orbs efficiently and Sasuke did not even know how to use the Six Paths' abilities.

 

[Delbi]

He showed skills which he didn't as a Ten-Tails Jin or perhaps he wasn't allowed to do so by his opponents.
It was basically like this ; EDO Madara < Alive SM Madara < One-Eyed Rinnegan SM Madara <<< Ten-Tails' Host Madara ( with 1 Rinnegan ) <<< Shinju Madara ( with 1 Rinnegan ) << Shinju Madara ( with a pair of Rinnegan )
And... Kaguya is easily way above Shinju Madara. Even as a Madara fan, I have to admit that Alive SM Madara or EDO Madara don't stand a chance.
Naruto before using Six Paths SM outright overwhelmed him and he was forced into absorbing the Shinju. ( Which was his biggest mistake and lead to his downfall but still, he gained a huge power-up in doing so )

You have to admit it dude, plot shield prevailed more against Kaguya than against Madara. She could have killed them at any time and that was against a Naruto & Sasuke who actually got better with new powers as time marched on. Naruto & Sasuke got rid of Madara's strongest attacks and yet at that time, Naruto did not even know that he could fly ( he could have prevented Madara from awakening his Third Eye if he could by simply catching him in mid-air ) and use his Truthseeker Orbs efficiently and Sasuke did not even know how to use the Six Paths' abilities.

Except Madara was perhaps the greatest warrior in the history of the manga along with being one of it's greatest geniuses.

Kaguya was certainly more powerful than Madara, but she wasn't more skilled. The skill portion is what made Madara ultimately more dangerous.

Plot armor aside, Kaguya isn't a warrior, shes a princess/goddess/rabbit person. Madara was a battle hardened genius fighter with decades of experience. The gap in power between Madara and Kaguya is not enough to make up for their gap in intelligence, battle prowess and experience fighting.

Simply put, had Madara not been offed by Zetsu there's no reasonable way Naruto and Sasuke should have won. Because realistically Madara would have bombarded them with jutsu to the point of exhaustion, ultimately killing them.

 

[Holt]

The only reason I can think of is because Madara spit the Sage artifacts?

While its true that was the only seeming difference between obito and madara, it doesn't offer an explanation though. Obito even says he didn't know the Jyuubi jin would have such a weakness.

 

[Rikudobito]

Except Madara was perhaps the greatest warrior in the history of the manga along with being one of it's greatest geniuses.

Kaguya was certainly more powerful than Madara, but to say she wasn't more skilled. The skill portion is what made Madara ultimately more dangerous.

Plot armor aside, Kaguya isn't a warrior, shes a princess/goddess/rabbit person. Madara was a battle hardened genius fighter with decades of experience. The gap in power between Madara and Kaguya is not enough to make up for their gap in intelligence, battle prowess and experience fighting.

Simply put, had Madara not been offed by Zetsu there's no reasonable way Naruto and Sasuke should have won. Because realistically Madara would have bombarded them with jutsu to the point of exhaustion, ultimately killing them.

Indeed he is the manga's best warrior.

However Naruto and Sasuke had an 'edge' over him. Both of them received power directly from Hagoromo. What Madara received from the Shinju/Kaguya was the power which was stolen from the Shinobi after Obito had ordered the Ten-Tails to revert back to its orginal form. In contrast to Madara, Sasuke awakened his Rinnegan thanks to half of Hagoromo's chakra. Madara on the other hand, awakened his Rinnegan via the merging of Indra's chakra which was already inside of him and a little bit of Hashirama's chakra which contained Asura's chakra resulting in the formation of Hagoromo's chakra leading him to awaken the Rinnegan, the chakra Madara had in order to awaken the Rinnegan can't be compared to half of Hagoromo's chakra.

He also later became the Ten-Tails' Host thus also gaining Six Paths Senjutsu in the process. However, half of Kurama was still lacking and the Ten-Tails which Madara had absorbed is nothing compared to the Ten-Tails that Hagoromo had. Not only did Hagoromo's Ten-Tails possessed all of the Tailed Beasts' Chakra ( who did not exist at the time ) but it also possessed much more chakra than that in addition and this is the chakra that Hagoromo had spread all over the world.

All of these missing pieces were the reason why a Naruto who just received half of Hagoromo's chakra ROFLstomped him.

Now what I'm meaning is that if Madara had the same advantages as Naruto and Sasuke ( i.e ; being given chakra directly from the Sage ), the manga would have ended with Madara's victory in less than 1 chapter.

Going back to what would have happened if BZ did not intervene, Naruto and Sasuke would have been able to seal Madara.

 

[M3J]

He showed skills which he didn't as a Ten-Tails Jin or perhaps he wasn't allowed to do so by his opponents.
It was basically like this ; EDO Madara < Alive SM Madara < One-Eyed Rinnegan SM Madara <<< Ten-Tails' Host Madara ( with 1 Rinnegan ) <<< Shinju Madara ( with 1 Rinnegan ) << Shinju Madara ( with a pair of Rinnegan )
And... Kaguya is easily way above Shinju Madara. Even as a Madara fan, I have to admit that Alive SM Madara or EDO Madara don't stand a chance.
Naruto before using Six Paths SM outright overwhelmed him and he was forced into absorbing the Shinju. ( Which was his biggest mistake and lead to his downfall but still, he gained a huge power-up in doing so )

In terms of power, easily. However, Kaguya has fought like an idiot throughout the fight, relying on Zetsu to help her. Madara is a seasoned warrior who loves to fight. He would stand a far better chance than Naruto or Sasuke did, and Naruto did pretty well on his own. I'm not that much of a Madara fan, but I recognize what a great fighter he is, and with the power he has, he would have been able to overwhelm even Naruto and Sasuke, and it took both of them to overwhelm Madara.

You have to admit it dude, plot shield prevailed more against Kaguya than against Madara. She could have killed them at any time and that was against a Naruto & Sasuke who actually got better with new powers as time marched on. Naruto & Sasuke got rid of Madara's strongest attacks and yet at that time, Naruto did not even know that he could fly ( he could have prevented Madara from awakening his Third Eye if he could by simply catching him in mid-air ) and use his Truthseeker Orbs efficiently and Sasuke did not even know how to use the Six Paths' abilities.

Plot shield made Kaguya dumb and incompetent, but plot shield also gave Madara inability to kill people. He could have killed those kage easily, and he could have dealt great damage to Naruto and Sasuke, which he did before their powerup, when he wasn't even close to full strength. I don't think Madara is more powerful than Kaguya, but he would still beat her because he's a powerful, experienced warrior.

His main downside is that he loves to fight and show off, I guess. When he didn't want to fight the kage anymore, down they went.

 

[Rikudobito]

In terms of power, easily. However, Kaguya has fought like an idiot throughout the fight, relying on Zetsu to help her. Madara is a seasoned warrior who loves to fight. He would stand a far better chance than Naruto or Sasuke did, and Naruto did pretty well on his own. I'm not that much of a Madara fan, but I recognize what a great fighter he is, and with the power he has, he would have been able to overwhelm even Naruto and Sasuke, and it took both of them to overwhelm Madara.



Plot shield made Kaguya dumb and incompetent, but plot shield also gave Madara inability to kill people. He could have killed those kage easily, and he could have dealt great damage to Naruto and Sasuke, which he did before their powerup, when he wasn't even close to full strength. I don't think Madara is more powerful than Kaguya, but he would still beat her because he's a powerful, experienced warrior.

His main downside is that he loves to fight and show off, I guess. When he didn't want to fight the kage anymore, down they went.

Kaguya just had the ultimate power and... that's that. Madara on the other hand needs only 30% ( or even less ) of her power to do what she couldn't to Naruto and Sasuke.

But then again, we don't know how strong Naruto & Sasuke would be at their prime. Madara was pretty much revived with his past powers as said by Hashirama. IMO, they have surpassed Hashirama & Madara in terms of skills.

 

[Fox666]

While its true that was the only seeming difference between obito and madara, it doesn't offer an explanation though. Obito even says he didn't know the Jyuubi jin would have such a weakness.

The true reason is because Kamui is over-powered, and Obito would not be defeated if he could use it. Makes you wonder why Madara wanted his other Rinnengan, given that he could use Limbo with just one and he cast the Infinite Tsukiyomi with the Rinne Sharingan.

 

[Zehahaha]

All of these missing pieces were the reason why a Naruto who just received half of Hagoromo's chakra ROFLstomped him.

That's unfair, dude just tanked Gai's ultimate technique and was still regenerating, people easily forget that

 

[Holt]

The true reason is because Kamui is over-powered, and Obito would not be defeated if he could use it. Makes you wonder why Madara wanted his other Rinnengan, given that he could use Limbo with just one and he cast the Infinite Tsukiyomi with the Rinne Sharingan.

Yes that's the only thing.

Maybe madara needed both eyes (rinnegan) to awaken the rinne sharingan. Obito used a different method which was the tree which was the shinju and thus had the RS eye that would reflect on the moon. Seeing as madara absorbed the tree, perhaps he needed the both rinnegan to awaken the RS eye.

---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

That's unfair, dude just tanked Gai's ultimate technique and was still regenerating, people easily forget that

That's invalidated by Madara's own statement:

Yeah maybe his injury played a part. No it definitely did, Madara himself didn't seem to think it was enough reason though.

 

[Zehahaha]

---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------



That's invalidated by Madara's own statement:

Spoiler

Yeah maybe his injury played a part. No it definitely did, Madara himself didn't seem to think it was enough reason though.

Well duh, suddenly Naruto was able to stop Gai from dying, extreme boost in speed, able to touch the Gudou dama
But had Madara been in top shape, doubt he'd be caught like that

 

[Holt]

Well duh, suddenly Naruto was able to stop Gai from dying, extreme boost in speed, able to touch the Gudou dama
But had Madara been in top shape, doubt he'd be caught like that

I already know that. Obviously in top shape it won't go that easily. I'm just saying Madara himself felt it wasn't really a situation of him being too injured. And yes I know it played a part, but it doesn't invalidate naruto's feats there.

 

[M3J]

Kaguya just had the ultimate power and... that's that. Madara on the other hand needs only 30% ( or even less ) of her power to do what she couldn't to Naruto and Sasuke.

But then again, we don't know how strong Naruto & Sasuke would be at their prime. Madara was pretty much revived with his past powers as said by Hashirama. IMO, they have surpassed Hashirama & Madara in terms of skills.

Exactly. This is why I think Madara would have done a lot against Kaguya, more so than N+S combined.

They were strong enough that they had trouble against a powerful, but derp Kaguya. I think that's them at their prime, and likely won't get any better as they lost a hand and forearm. I also don't think either of them surpassed Madara or Hashirama before their death, but that's probably a matter of opinion.

That's invalidated by Madara's own statement:

Yeah maybe his injury played a part. No it definitely did, Madara himself didn't seem to think it was enough reason though.

MangaReader doesn't work for those in America. You're better off uploadin to an image hosting site or linking to MangaStream.to.

But yeah, Madara was likely arrogant and didn't expect Naruto to get a super power boost. It literally came out of nowhere for everyone but the readers and the affected characters, as we saw those characters talk to the Sage.

 

[Delbi]

Indeed he is the manga's best warrior.

However Naruto and Sasuke had an 'edge' over him. Both of them received power directly from Hagoromo. What Madara received from the Shinju/Kaguya was the power which was stolen from the Shinobi after Obito had ordered the Ten-Tails to revert back to its orginal form. In contrast to Madara, Sasuke awakened his Rinnegan thanks to half of Hagoromo's chakra. Madara on the other hand, awakened his Rinnegan via the merging of Indra's chakra which was already inside of him and a little bit of Hashirama's chakra which contained Asura's chakra resulting in the formation of Hagoromo's chakra leading him to awaken the Rinnegan, the chakra Madara had in order to awaken the Rinnegan can't be compared to half of Hagoromo's chakra.

He also later became the Ten-Tails' Host thus also gaining Six Paths Senjutsu in the process. However, half of Kurama was still lacking and the Ten-Tails which Madara had absorbed is nothing compared to the Ten-Tails that Hagoromo had. Not only did Hagoromo's Ten-Tails possessed all of the Tailed Beasts' Chakra ( who did not exist at the time ) but it also possessed much more chakra than that in addition and this is the chakra that Hagoromo had spread all over the world.

All of these missing pieces were the reason why a Naruto who just received half of Hagoromo's chakra ROFLstomped him.

Now what I'm meaning is that if Madara had the same advantages as Naruto and Sasuke ( i.e ; being given chakra directly from the Sage ), the manga would have ended with Madara's victory in less than 1 chapter.

Going back to what would have happened if BZ did not intervene, Naruto and Sasuke would have been able to seal Madara.

See I disagree here. Once Madara had attained his full power he went straight into the activating the Moon Genjutsu, we barely saw him fight. He effortlessly called downed dozens of rocks from orbit and made numerous clones. If he had just went straight at Naruto and Sasuke instead of trying to stall them he would have killed them IMO.

Powers aside Madara achieved a greater power than Naruto and Sasuke. It just so happened the power they achieved was "pure" so to speak whereas his was a bastardized version.

 

[Holt]

MangaReader doesn't work for those in America. You're better off uploadin to an image hosting site or linking to MangaStream.to.

Oh my bad. Noted.

 

[docexe]

See I disagree here. Once Madara had attained his full power he went straight into the activating the Moon Genjutsu, we barely saw him fight. He effortlessly called downed dozens of rocks from orbit and made numerous clones. If he had just went straight at Naruto and Sasuke instead of trying to stall them he would have killed them IMO.

Powers aside Madara achieved a greater power than Naruto and Sasuke. It just so happened the power they achieved was "pure" so to speak whereas his was a bastardized version.

Not exactly, Naruto was keeping up with his Limbo clones without much problem just with his Kage Bunshin and Sasuke was destroying the meteors with his Susanoo. Also, neither one was completely aware or had perfected all the abilities the Sage had given them (like Naruto’s flight or Sasuke’s Chibaku Tensei). And given the sound trashing they gave him earlier, the only thing Madara achieved with the full Rinnegan was to barely tie with them. If he hadn’t gone for casting the Infinite Tsukuyomi, it’s very likely they would have defeated him.

--------------------------

In any case let’s be honest: After his resurrection by Rinne Tensei, Madara was nothing else but a plot device. He was just as strong, skilled and intelligent as he needed to be for the plot to progress in the direction the author wanted. If the author needed him to defeat someone, he would do it instantly and almost effortlessly. If the author needed the other character to keep him at bay, he would make some incredibly dumb mistakes. He was winning against pretty much everyone only because the plot dictated it, and ultimately lost only because the plot dictated it. There are too many inconsistencies in his portrayal at that point to claim whether or not he would have actually defeated or overwhelmed Kaguya or Naruto and Sasuke after casting the IT.

It’s a shame, because at a conceptual level, given his backstory and ties to the origin of Konoha and the ninja village system, he could have been a very cool villain. As it stands, the author just wasted him: Turning him from a credible threat to a mere plot device to be used to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi, then discarded to facilitate the final battle at the highest stakes possible and nothing else.

 

[Fox666]

In any case let’s be honest: After his resurrection by Rinne Tensei, Madara was nothing else but a plot device. He was just as strong, skilled and intelligent as he needed to be for the plot to progress in the direction the author wanted. If the author needed him to defeat someone, he would do it instantly and almost effortlessly. If the author needed the other character to keep him at bay, he would make some incredibly dumb mistakes. He was winning against pretty much everyone only because the plot dictated it, and ultimately lost only because the plot dictated it.

Frankly I think this applies to any fight in Naruto.

 

[M3J]

Actually, most fights in Part I were good, there was no plot involved. Other than having Sasuke face the stoic Gaara (would have lost to insane Gaara) and Naruto facing insane Gaara (would have been owned by stoic Gaara).

 

[docexe]

It’s a problem in many fights on part II admittedly (especially most of the fights involving any of the Uchiha in general), but Madara takes the cake because the author wasn’t even bothering with any plausible way of hand-waving the violations to the rules he previously established (using Susanoo without eyes, using Kamui when the other Juubi jinhuuriki couldn’t, etc., etc.). The explanation seemingly boiled down to “it’s Uchiha Madara so of course he can do that nonsensical thing, move along”. His rather anticlimactic defeat doesn’t help matters, even if it was thematically fitting what with the Infinite Tsukuyomi ultimately blowing up in his face. By that point the “because the plot says it” thing was just too transparent, in other arcs it wasn't that blatant.