Minato would FTG out immediately but that's S/T which naruto didn't have. Plus minato was a sensor type as well. I don't really know about raikage. I guess he could just blast his way out or the chameleon wouldn't be able to touch him because of his lightning armor. Thing is nagato moved to him immediately and used human path. Naruto didn't even understand how he was stuck in the first place. I'm not saying it wasn't bad, but its not a situation that happened due to naruto being incompetent or something.
Dunno, but I could see him reacting to the chameleon before it completely gets him even without using Hiraishin. I mean, I have yet to see ANYONE react as fast as Minato did when Tobi creeped up behind him, and if it weren't for the Sharingan and Kamui, Tobi would be headless.
I'm talking about speed and reflexes, not power and jutsu. Again, Naruto's speed and reflexes have been exaggerated far too much, even though he did have an increase in speed after KYuubi became Naruto's butt buddy.
Dunno. Seems like he just absorbed the rasengan or maybe the chakra arm didn't get into his preta sphere. Naruto was also busy trying to prevent his soul from being sucked out.
If he could make rasengan, which is more complex, he should be able to attack with chakra arm. I forgot if Naruto's arms were pinned or not though, but I'm assuming not as he was tugging his soul back? Could be wrong.
Yeah, but the basic thing was having to fight tough guys. Its not like Tobi was using the bijuu's abilities on just any shinobi or that he was getting chakra thanks to the rinnegan. These guys actually had the bijuu while alive. The chakra/KG would have been theirs if they hadn't been captured. Assuming they died with their bijuu, technically they'll be able to access the full power under edo tensei.
The shared eyesight was the only plus IMO but even that isn't a game changer anymore. Naruto has clones strong enough to negate that advantage.
His clones fought madara's limbo clones evenly even though they couldn't see and the limbo clones had shared vision. He also has frog kata which makes the shared vision useless.
They were tough because of the Rinnegan. Without the Rinnegan, they'd just be normal shinobi relying only on what they know and have in their arsenal. The Rinnegan may not have boosted Tobi's own fighting power, but it boosted Tobi and was the reason why Naruto and Bee almost lost.
Would they have? I highly doubt it, especially when they died when the bijuu (who are living and aren't part of the jinchuuriki) were extracted.
Shared eyesight was one of the many pluses. Sharingan also helped them react to Naruto and Bee as well. I'm not sure if clones are enough, especially against the likes of Sasuke. I dunno if Sasuke can see natural energy though, but I'm not sure how Limbo works. I'm assuming it uses natural energy, but I'm likely wrong.
Tobi did have issues controlling the beasts occasionally though.
Handicapped even more, even though Naruto was likely the main reason why. The fight would have likely been in Tobi's favor if it weren't for plot induced nerfs like Tobi being unable to use Rinnegan jutsu due to the chakra needed to control the Edo Tensei and the bijuu. If Tobi could absorb chakra, use Shinra Tensei, and even Bansho Tenin, Naruto and co. would be in even bigger trouble.
I know he did, however we saw that when he went bijuu, he could withstand and even repel ST. Then base naruto managed to withstand it again with the help of his clones.
I know, and I think current Naruto can withstand the shinra tensei too when he knows it's coming. I doubt he can do anything against the shinra tensei that leveled a village, but I can't see Naruto not withstanding it if he's prepared.
If we are talking about his current strength, the animals wouldn't pose the slightest problem. He can defeat the lot of them just using regular sage mode. He just needed to focus on pein himself.
The dog is the only worthy summon but pein used a multiplication jutsu on it. TSB negates jutsu so attacks from the TSB should be able to defeat it. He has shikaku's magnet release which has natural sealing abilities as well. His TSB work as seals also (he used them to restrict madara's original limbo Clone and BZ as well)
I believe the same even back then during their fight, but it would use up his chakra for clones and jutsu. Even without those abilities from the bijuu, I've always thought Naruto could deal with the multiplying dogs. Out of bias.
Well yeah he surpassed them in speed. I don't think his reflexes in that form was all that. The way I saw it, as long as he could see, he'd be fast enough to dodge/counter. Which I don't think is attributed to reflexes but rather his superior speed which would bail him out. Sage mode gives enhanced reflexes. He doesn't need to see to react, when attacked he can counter but his speed isn't as fast as his BCM.
His BCM was basically speed and raw power along with ridiculous amounts of chakra.
Both have immense individual advantages, so combining both (even pre rikudo power up), made him a match for anyone.
Same, especially when he had all the advantages in dodging Raikage like warning and already moving. Sage Mode combined with Kyuubi's chakra mode would make it pretty hard for nearly anyone to land a hit on Naruto, except for maybe Sharingan Minato. Benefit of Sage Mode being like Sharingan that can sense and the speed of Kyuubi's chakra should be enough that even Madara at his most powerful should have immense difficulty.
I'm not actually talking about the whole fight. I'm talking about when naruto encountered Madara's rinnegan abilities. After gai and Madara's fight, Naruto attacked Madara, he dodged limbo (rinnegan) at point blank and preta didn't save Madara from the FRS. Naruto's clones could match the limbo ones, and he used FRS/BD to obliterate the multiple CT. Sasuke's involvement mostly came when he ported Madara for their attacks.
Did Madara even try to use preta's ability? Plot induced stupidity is what kept Madara from dominating, so I'm not sure if it's fair to say he can't absorb unless he himself admits it.
Apart from that, did Sasuke or Naruto hurt Madara? I only remember Madara, after recovering, taking damage when they worked together.
I guess so. Although if even that doesn't qualify as a weakness, its more proof that rinnegan isn't Naruto's weakness.
Given that he consistently has trouble with it, it does show Rinnegan is his weakness, if nothing else. Prior to the war, genjutsu would have been Naruto's weakness because he has shown inability to break out, but now he has the Kyuubi to save him. Without the Rinnegan now, no one has any chance of beating Naruto. Assuming he uses full power, that is.
Fared better ? Well, maybe. I'm sure he would have done better. He managed to impair the Rinnegan's shared vision but if that was Nagato in control of his own actions instead of Kabuto then things would have been different. ( Only if Nagato was in a true fight against Itachi )
I know, which is why I don't use the fight as an indicator of how Nagato would do, as much as I dislike him. But aren't you saying the same thing I did, done/fared better?
As you've said Kabuto is more at fault. A non-Rinnegan wielder was forcing a mindless Nagato to use his abilities. Kabuto knows some of its abilities but he's actually never used them himself. Though, Nagato's lack of muscle memory was the biggest handicap here.
I think you're the first or second out of countless members to actually agree with me - it was Kabuto's fault, not Nagato's legs'. Or at least, meet me halfway through as I still think the legs didn't hurt Nagato once Kabuto took over. He went from being unable to do anything but stand up while in control to running and supporting extra weight after Kabuto took over.
Madara used only two Rinnegan abilities in this whole fight ;
Chibaku Tensei and Limbo.
Naruto has countered both attacks.
Sasuke could do nothing about Limbo and Naruto was able to intercept them with his Shadow Clones.
Sasuke with his PS was able to destroy 2-3 CTs but he did not have time to destroy the others since IT was about to be cast and he had to protect Naruto from getting caught into the genjutsu. Though, that's not the actual point, Naruto was then able to destroy the remaining meteorites in one swoop showing that he was able to counter CT as well. He could just have simply shielded himself using his Truthseeker Orbs if he wanted but he also had to destroy them so as to save the alliance members from the Meteorites' impact.
Wasn't Sasuke countering limbo and fighting on par with it? I'm confused as I remember Sasuke dealing with limbo just as well as Naruto was. Basically Sasuke has countered chibaku tensei and limbo.
Weren't the rocks and stuff falling? Easier to destroy them especially when you have the bijuu enhancing your power. Sasuke seemed to have been flying down rather than focusing on destroying the rubbles, but I admittedly forgot the specifics.
In the end, he countered two of the strongest known Rinnegan abilities, that's undeniable.
So has Sasuke, and both have had to work together to damage Madara.
How ? It's invisible.
Naruto was also in mid-air at that moment. With no Sage Mode's ability to sense chakra, no way he could have avoided getting trapped when he also had 100% of his focus on Nagato.
oh right, it grabbed Naruto while it was invisible.... Forgot that.
Anyway, are you two sure you wanna debate about the war arc stuff with me? I seem to not remember a lot that has happened and don't care much to reread the arc as I do not want to relive the disappointment. If you two are looking for a good debate, you'll probably be wasting your time against me. Just saying. Plus, I'm just not into debating about these things anymore as I was months ago. :\
( It's probably because he didn't even know how the Truthseeker Orbs are called lol )
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