Discussion Ranking the Sins

[Demonspeed]

when I said King is fast, I meant when he flies. He has been shown to be faster than Ban that way on multiple ocasions. And when you deny something I have shown you evidence of, at least try to prove me wrong. And like I said, King could easily dodge that. Mel wouldn't be able to even lay a finger on King, let alone punch him, since King can just fly up. And King can easily defend himself from Mel's slashes. Also I never said anything about true chastiefol. And Kings durability has been the most impressive one so far.

Meliodas unable to hit King?

I am obviously talking about King when he is flying, that's why I mentioned his race against Helbram in the special, where has he been shown to be much faster than Ban?
Here are scenes of the Sins rushing to Gowther and facing Dawn Roar.

Spoiler

Compare it to his race with Helbram

Spoiler

The Sins can keep up with each other for running/flying speed.

And lastly, Ban and King training

Spoiler

There are also the fight scenes early in the manga with Ban and King fighting in Chapter 19.

The issue is not them being similar, the issue is whether sacred treasure abilities are allowed or not. I don't see why meliodas would be allowed a gimmick but not the same for king. It seems unfair. But then again its unlikely the clones would be that much of an asset...

Even if its not a nuke it basically worked like that. What meliodas did against those 3 HKs is presumably what other sins would be able to do. King took on helbram while powered up by over 10 HKs and then overpowered the full blunt raw power they had when helbram forced them to send him their power. Even if he took half their power its enough to easily best the 3000 number which is the bare minimum for the sins...

Clones are the abilities of his Sacred Treasure, it's the same as King with the forms he uses casually, I am talking about base PL so King can't use a form which gives him a PL close to 11000, King has almost no feats without his ST and Meliodas can't use his Demon powers which put him far above the other Sins. his Release is something he could use for a few seconds and he had never ever used it in the manga despite the situations they were in, Meliodas at least can use his Demon powers which give him a PL of 4400 without problems but he is not allowed to use them here. What Meliodas did against the trio was without his ST and he tanked a lot of attacks, do you think the other Sins would be able to do the same in the same conditions?

 

[overlordpringerx]

Beating 3 GHK without a ST? Tanking attacks? King scared entire KINGDOMS shitless without his ST. And when fighting Albion King was the tanking GOD! Albion had a powerlevel around 3 GHK combined, and yet King survived several strikes that killed all those other fairies. Also, King has more skills without his ST than you think. From what we have seen Disaster appears to work from the target's inside, so Meliodas wouldn't be able to reflect it. King also has a lot of possibilities open with his telekinesis and appearant ability to use anything as a weapon. Like the rose he used against Helbram. Also he seems to have some kind of mind power. You're also forgetting one thing: you only list abilities and expect to convince us. But you also have to think of HOW the characters use those abilities, and how they defend themselves. So far you have only been acting as if Meliodas wasn't able to take damage.

 

[Demonspeed]

Beating 3 GHK without a ST? Tanking attacks? King scared entire KINGDOMS shitless without his ST. And when fighting Albion King was the tanking GOD! Albion had a powerlevel around 3 GHK combined, and yet King survived several strikes that killed all those other fairies. Also, King has more skills without his ST than you think. From what we have seen Disaster appears to work from the target's inside, so Meliodas wouldn't be able to reflect it. King also has a lot of possibilities open with his telekinesis and appearant ability to use anything as a weapon. Like the rose he used against Helbram. Also he seems to have some kind of mind power. You're also forgetting one thing: you only list abilities and expect to convince us. But you also have to think of HOW the characters use those abilities, and how they defend themselves. So far you have only been acting as if Meliodas wasn't able to take damage.

I know King can fight without his ST, I said he has almost no feats, that's all. Among the Sins King is the less durable, I don't know where you read that Disaster works on the inside, he said he used it to trigger Cain's rheumatism, as for weapons, they were all plants, just liek the other Fairies, there's no reason to think he can use anything as a weapon and even if he was, it would not be as good as his Chastiefol. I didn't say that Meliodas can't take damages, I said he is much more durable than King.

Dodging and blocking are the options but you can't dodge forever, I guess his Pollen Garden from can protect him for a while if he doesn't use Hellblaze but that's all. I don't get why base King would be considered stronger than Meliodas to begin with, since he's the confirmed strongest.

 

[kkck]

I know King can fight without his ST, I said he has almost no feats, that's all. Among the Sins King is the less durable, I don't know where you read that Disaster works on the inside, he said he used it to trigger Cain's rheumatism, as for weapons, they were all plants, just liek the other Fairies, there's no reason to think he can use anything as a weapon and even if he was, it would not be as good as his Chastiefol. I didn't say that Meliodas can't take damages, I said he is much more durable than King.

Dodging and blocking are the options but you can't dodge forever, I guess his Pollen Garden from can protect him for a while if he doesn't use Hellblaze but that's all. I don't get why base King would be considered stronger than Meliodas to begin with, since he's the confirmed strongest.

I'd think king has more than shown he is fairly resistant to damage, I am not sure how much of a thing this would be in the fight. Meliodas can only resist insane damage when using his demon powers anyways. Just look at his fight with gilthunder, the wound almost killed him. With no demon powers mel's ability to take damage should not make such a difference here. King has take attacks from an albion and continued fighting anyways.

 

[Holt]

I think Mel can tank enough even without his demon powers. When he used revenge counter against Hendrickson, he had to first take the brunt of combined attacks from all the holy knights and the sins as well. Besides, he can always use revenge counter against king. Besides even without that, he can counter physical attacks as well like he reflected Twigo's strike at the beginning.

 

[Demonspeed]

I'd think king has more than shown he is fairly resistant to damage, I am not sure how much of a thing this would be in the fight. Meliodas can only resist insane damage when using his demon powers anyways. Just look at his fight with gilthunder, the wound almost killed him. With no demon powers mel's ability to take damage should not make such a difference here. King has take attacks from an albion and continued fighting anyways.

Meliodas has proven to be durable even without his Demon powers, I am not saying that King is not durable, I am saying that he's the least durable of them all. Meliodas's wound against Gil was early in the manga and his other feats after this dwarf everything Gil can do, if Meliodas has been mortally wounded by this, it means that it would be even worse for King. He took damages from Albion but he is still the less durable and Meliodas is a swordsman, how would he take a sword slash?

 

[overlordpringerx]

I know King can fight without his ST, I said he has almost no feats, that's all. Among the Sins King is the less durable, I don't know where you read that Disaster works on the inside, he said he used it to trigger Cain's rheumatism, as for weapons, they were all plants, just liek the other Fairies, there's no reason to think he can use anything as a weapon and even if he was, it would not be as good as his Chastiefol. I didn't say that Meliodas can't take damages, I said he is much more durable than King.

Dodging and blocking are the options but you can't dodge forever, I guess his Pollen Garden from can protect him for a while if he doesn't use Hellblaze but that's all. I don't get why base King would be considered stronger than Meliodas to begin with, since he's the confirmed strongest.

No fairy apart from King has ever effectively used something as feeble as a flower to kill somebody. Helbram used a sword when King killed him the first time. And Mel would have to protect himself aswell if he didn't want to be cut into pieces. And as for durability, that is a territory I don't want to dive into anymore because we are TOLD that Meliodas is tougher than King, but we are SHOWN something else. And I'm not saying that base King IS stronger than base Meliodas, I said that is just how it looks like to me and it's possible. And Meliodas isn't confirmed to be the strongest, at least not at base. Merlin had a way higher base power level and King's power level is not known. And if you say, he has to be the strongest because he is their leader, well, that is not how it works.

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

Meliodas has proven to be durable even without his Demon powers, I am not saying that King is not durable, I am saying that he's the least durable of them all. Meliodas's wound against Gil was early in the manga and his other feats after this dwarf everything Gil can do, if Meliodas has been mortally wounded by this, it means that it would be even worse for King. He took damages from Albion but he is still the less durable and Meliodas is a swordsman, how would he take a sword slash?

So what? Because he is a swordsman he automatically wins? King has already taken a swordslash in the chest and he survived it. And King could actually easily block a sword slash. Chastiefol is made out of the hardest material in the world, or at least as far as we know. In fact, King has taken on several swordsmen and won. Helbram, Dreyfus, Guila, Jericho... So yeah, that argument is worthless.

 

[Demonspeed]

No fairy apart from King has ever effectively used something as feeble as a flower to kill somebody. Helbram used a sword when King killed him the first time. And Mel would have to protect himself aswell if he didn't want to be cut into pieces. And as for durability, that is a territory I don't want to dive into anymore because we are TOLD that Meliodas is tougher than King, but we are SHOWN something else. And I'm not saying that base King IS stronger than base Meliodas, I said that is just how it looks like to me and it's possible. And Meliodas isn't confirmed to be the strongest, at least not at base. Merlin had a way higher base power level and King's power level is not known. And if you say, he has to be the strongest because he is their leader, well, that is not how it works.

Fairies were using flowers to fight in Chapter 118.

Spoiler

I didn't say Meliodas would not need to dodge or block but he can take hits much more easily than King.

King is the less durable, that's not even debatable, Meliodas could take several hits from The Sins and HK and that was with his Magic power disabled. If King can take a punch from Albion then the other Sins can too, Meliodas has been confirmed as the strongest Sin at several occasions, Merlin is something else but King is not Merlin, he has done nothing which would put him above Meliodas. It's very unlikely that King has a PL of 4000 like her, the Sins(or King, Ban, Diane and Gowther if you prefer, not counting Escanor since he has mostly hype) are a match for Meliodas only when he is not using his Demon powers.

So what? Because he is a swordsman he automatically wins? King has already taken a swordslash in the chest and he survived it. And King could actually easily block a sword slash. Chastiefol is made out of the hardest material in the world, or at least as far as we know. In fact, King has taken on several swordsmen and won. Helbram, Dreyfus, Guila, Jericho... So yeah, that argument is worthless.

That's not my point. My point is that a sword slash from Meliodas would be deadly to him, King uses a spear too but Meliodas has superior durability and stamina. Helbram and the rest are fodders compared to the Sins and King has never been hit by Dreyfu's Break for example, which is extremely powerful, Meliodas is easily the best swordsman of the series so far and he can cleave a mountain with a twig. Chastiefol is durable but so is Lostvayne, Chastiefol has been described as harder than steal, not as a weapon made of the hardest material in the world, all the STs should be comparable anyway. As I said previously, King is a glass cannon by Sins standard, his fighting style is like the completely opposite of Diane who is slow but durable. He uses his multiple attacks, speed and flight to win.

 

[overlordpringerx]

Fairies were using flowers to fight in Chapter 118.

Spoiler

I didn't say Meliodas would not need to dodge or block but he can take hits much more easily than King.

King is the less durable, that's not even debatable, Meliodas could take several hits from The Sins and HK and that was with his Magic power disabled. If King can take a punch from Albion then the other Sins can too, Meliodas has been confirmed as the strongest Sin at several occasions, Merlin is something else but King is not Merlin, he has done nothing which would put him above Meliodas. It's very unlikely that King has a PL of 4000 like her, the Sins(or King, Ban, Diane and Gowther if you prefer, not counting Escanor since he has mostly hype) are a match for Meliodas only when he is not using his Demon powers.



That's not my point. My point is that a sword slash from Meliodas would be deadly to him, King uses a spear too but Meliodas has superior durability and stamina. Helbram and the rest are fodders compared to the Sins and King has never been hit by Dreyfu's Break for example, which is extremely powerful, Meliodas is easily the best swordsman of the series so far and he can cleave a mountain with a twig. Chastiefol is durable but so is Lostvayne, Chastiefol has been described as harder than steal, not as a weapon made of the hardest material in the world, all the STs should be comparable anyway. As I said previously, King is a glass cannon by Sins standard, his fighting style is like the completely opposite of Diane who is slow but durable. He uses his multiple attacks, speed and flight to win.

Of course Meliodas could kill King by slashing him. Just as much as it would kill Meliodas to get both his hearts cut open. King can slash Mel just as easily as Mel can slash King. Mel is able to cut from far away, and King is able to handle Chastiefol from a distance. So, I'ld say they're even in that sense. And Guardian has appearantly more strength than Mel and Ban, so King could cover that too. And we don't really know how durable Lostvayne is. Again, I'm just assuming. But you should stop jumping to conclusions. Cause that's what you're doing. I'm only telling you what I deem possible right now, you are not even considering that you might be wrong. Right now none of us is, since they both got huge powerups, with close power levels. So, words of advice, don't just jump to conclusions, the whole fun is to see the surprises the series throws at you.

 

[Demonspeed]

Of course Meliodas could kill King by slashing him. Just as much as it would kill Meliodas to get both his hearts cut open. King can slash Mel just as easily as Mel can slash King. Mel is able to cut from far away, and King is able to handle Chastiefol from a distance. So, I'ld say they're even in that sense. And Guardian has appearantly more strength than Mel and Ban, so King could cover that too. And we don't really know how durable Lostvayne is. Again, I'm just assuming. But you should stop jumping to conclusions. Cause that's what you're doing. I'm only telling you what I deem possible right now, you are not even considering that you might be wrong. Right now none of us is, since they both got huge powerups, with close power levels. So, words of advice, don't just jump to conclusions, the whole fun is to see the surprises the series throws at you.

What I am saying is really not complicated, I could understand if we were talking about King VS Diane or Gowther but it's Meliodas. Meliodas without his Demon powers is stronger than King, Diane and Gowther. They would do well if they face him but they would ultimately lose, simple as that.

 

[overlordpringerx]

What I am saying is really not complicated, I could understand if we were talking about King VS Diane or Gowther but it's Meliodas. Meliodas without his Demon powers is stronger than King, Diane and Gowther. They would do well if they face him but they would ultimately lose, simple as that.

See?! You're doing it again! You're just flatout denying the possibility of him losing! You refuse to even consider it a possible outcome! You don't have to believe it would happen, just don't act like you know everything beforehand

 

[lightningsha]

What I am saying is really not complicated, I could understand if we were talking about King VS Diane or Gowther but it's Meliodas. Meliodas without his Demon powers is stronger than King, Diane and Gowther. They would do well if they face him but they would ultimately lose, simple as that.

Don't agree with this statement either. There were numerous times Mel used instant black-eye demon power-up to get out of a sticky situation. Even if they lasted a half second, they still count as using demon powers. The Byzel match with Ban is a prime example of this. Then there was the time Mel and Diane were fighting on even ground when they were being manipulated into believing they were fighting HKs. We've never once seen Mel or King have any kind of exchange in fighting so it's all hypothetical from there.

And it gets even trickier if we include their STs. We've barely seen Mel use his so far, the special ability of Diane's still hasn't been revealed, and Ban doesn't have his yet. King's by far we have the most info on, but even then there are still several forms that are missing. So I really don't see how you can say with certainty that Mel would always win a match against these Sins without using demon powers. At this point, I'd say they all are on even ground and it really depends on circumstance to determine the winner.

Demon mode Mel is another matter. He's top reign on that one.

Gowther, as discussed earlier, is a bit of a wildcard so it's difficult to gauge him.

 

[Demonspeed]

See?! You're doing it again! You're just flatout denying the possibility of him losing! You refuse to even consider it a possible outcome! You don't have to believe it would happen, just don't act like you know everything beforehand

I believe that Meliodas is stronger so why would I think he'd lose?

Don't agree with this statement either. There were numerous times Mel used instant black-eye demon power-up to get out of a sticky situation. Even if they lasted a half second, they still count as using demon powers. The Byzel match with Ban is a prime example of this. Then there was the time Mel and Diane were fighting on even ground when they were being manipulated into believing they were fighting HKs. We've never once seen Mel or King have any kind of exchange in fighting so it's all hypothetical from there.

And it gets even trickier if we include their STs. We've barely seen Mel use his so far, the special ability of Diane's still hasn't been revealed, and Ban doesn't have his yet. King's by far we have the most info on, but even then there are still several forms that are missing. So I really don't see how you can say with certainty that Mel would always win a match against these Sins without using demon powers. At this point, I'd say they all are on even ground and it really depends on circumstance to determine the winner.

Demon mode Mel is another matter. He's top reign on that one.

Gowther, as discussed earlier, is a bit of a wildcard so it's difficult to gauge him.

I remember all of these fights, he was even with Diane and Ban, but the conditions were different , the fight with Diane qualifies because both were without their STs but it was not the same against Ban, Meliodas was going to lose without his Demon powers but both had not their STs and Ban was using his Magic, something Meliodas could not, Gowther has always fought with his Sacred Treasure. What I am saying is that he is stronger than any of these four if they all have their Sacred Treasures. Gowther, King and Diane? Ban would beat Base Meliodas without if he has Liz Sword but it won't be the case if he has Lostvayne, though as I said again it would be a though match.

 

[overlordpringerx]

Now you're choice of words is a little better. This time you at least said 'I believe' and didn't put it as if it was a certain and verified fact. But still, you said it yourself, Mel couldn't use his ability against Ban because of it's limitations, so he is not garanteed to beat an enemy of equal power if his ability is not compatible with full counter. And given that Merlin's power level is above Meliodas it is not too farfetched that the king of fairies, not by blood but by selection of the fairy tree itself, has a base power above Mel. Not as significant as Merlin obviously, but still around 150 or 200 units more maybe. And as I said, it could be that you are right and base Mel is above base King. Or they are equal.

 

[Sajuukkhar]

Given that Ban and Mel have arm wrestled... what was it... 720 times? and both have a basically equal win loss ratio, with them disputing who has the 361 wins vs the others 359, I would say both of them would have to be roughly equal physically, at least when Mel is in his human mode.

Neither seems like one to hold back, especially given that they punch each other through walls as a greeting.

 

[Demonspeed]

Now you're choice of words is a little better. This time you at least said 'I believe' and didn't put it as if it was a certain and verified fact. But still, you said it yourself, Mel couldn't use his ability against Ban because of it's limitations, so he is not garanteed to beat an enemy of equal power if his ability is not compatible with full counter. And given that Merlin's power level is above Meliodas it is not too farfetched that the king of fairies, not by blood but by selection of the fairy tree itself, has a base power above Mel. Not as significant as Merlin obviously, but still around 150 or 200 units more maybe. And as I said, it could be that you are right and base Mel is above base King. Or they are equal.

So you are saying that King should have a PL of 4000? It was said that Meliodas was the strongest and he has been much stronger than the others when he used his Demon powers. Mel couldn't use his Magic, Ban could, both had no weapons. This is different from what we were talking about, Mel has Lostvayne and King has Chastiefol but Mel is not allowed to use his Demon powers as they raise his PL. I don't see how they could be considered equals, once Meliodas got his ST he effortlessly sliced Albion and reflected its attacks, while King's attacks were ineffective until he revealed an attack which raised his PL for a few seconds, destroyed his fingers and made him collapse.

Given that Ban and Mel have arm wrestled... what was it... 720 times? and both have a basically equal win loss ratio, with them disputing who has the 361 wins vs the others 359, I would say both of them would have to be roughly equal physically, at least when Mel is in his human mode.

Neither seems like one to hold back, especially given that they punch each other through walls as a greeting.

Ban must have around 800-900 in Strength, it must be less than Human-sized Diane, physical strength is not the only factor in arm wrestling. King said Meliodas was physically stronger while Ban was faster.

 

[overlordpringerx]

So you are saying that King should have a PL of 4000? It was said that Meliodas was the strongest and he has been much stronger than the others when he used his Demon powers. Mel couldn't use his Magic, Ban could, both had no weapons. This is different from what we were talking about, Mel has Lostvayne and King has Chastiefol but Mel is not allowed to use his Demon powers as they raise his PL. I don't see how they could be considered equals, once Meliodas got his ST he effortlessly sliced Albion and reflected its attacks, while King's attacks were ineffective until he revealed an attack which raised his PL for a few seconds, destroyed his fingers and made him collapse.



Ban must have around 800-900 in Strength, it must be less than Human-sized Diane, physical strength is not the only factor in arm wrestling. King said Meliodas was physically stronger while Ban was faster.

No. I said that I imagine base King surpassing base Mel by 200 at most. That would be 3570. Do the math. And I'm just assuming. Also, a huge difference between the fights against the Albions was that Mel had Merlin, Diane, Slader and a bunch of decently capable holy knights ready to to help him. King on the other hand had nobody. Not even Ban. He had to do the work that the group at camelot had split up all by himself. He had to protect the forest from damage, which he did for a while, take all the hits, attack Albion in different ways each time, you know, the things that Meliodas wouldn't have accomplished by himself either. And yeah, King collapsed, but he had already taken a lot of damage. So its possible that he doesn't necessarily collapse every time he uses release. It might have been the combination of the damage, emotional scarring and Release that made him pass out.

 

[Holt]

Also, a huge difference between the fights against the Albions was that Mel had Merlin, Diane, Slader and a bunch of decently capable holy knights ready to to help him. King on the other hand had nobody. Not even Ban. He had to do the work that the group at camelot had split up all by himself. He had to protect the forest from damage, which he did for a while, take all the hits, attack Albion in different ways each time, you know, the things that Meliodas wouldn't have accomplished by himself either. And yeah, King collapsed, but he had already taken a lot of damage. So its possible that he doesn't necessarily collapse every time he uses release. It might have been the combination of the damage, emotional scarring and Release that made him pass out.

Actually, even though Mel had more people with him, he still practically did all the work.
Merlin's barrier didn't hold out much against albion and the Camelot Holy Knights could only block one albion attack. After that, they were sitting ducks. Mel would have ended the fight far earlier if he had his ST.
He reflected Albion's second attack, sparing Arthur and the HK's. He saved Arthur again by cutting off Albion's fingers and after getting his ST, he easily cut of Albion's hand and reflected the next attack, thus defeating it.
It's not like the others were actively helping and when they did, the help wasn't much.
With his ST, he would have cut off Albion's hand when it tried to punch camelot and destroyed Merlin's barrier. He could have also easily reflected the first attack from albion. It is not a similar comparison at all. Mel with his ST outclassed King and Chastefiol. Even after King released his ST, Mel's reflected attack was on par with it.

 

[HereNThere]

King's my favorite character, but Mel had an easier time soloing the Albion. Full Counter and Lostvayne was a much more useful and efficient counter measure than Chastiefol. It's all about the match ups. Hell, they both were able to destroy an Albioin, but Lostvayne still wouldn't be able to Full Counter True Form Chastiefol as it's a physical attack. Also, to be fair to King, the only thing he lacked was straight offensive ability. He was keeping up with the Albion speed wise and his defense was solid. It was only when he attacked that he would get hit.

 

[overlordpringerx]

Actually, even though Mel had more people with him, he still practically did all the work.
Merlin's barrier didn't hold out much against albion and the Camelot Holy Knights could only block one albion attack. After that, they were sitting ducks. Mel would have ended the fight far earlier if he had his ST.
He reflected Albion's second attack, sparing Arthur and the HK's. He saved Arthur again by cutting off Albion's fingers and after getting his ST, he easily cut of Albion's hand and reflected the next attack, thus defeating it.
It's not like the others were actively helping and when they did, the help wasn't much.
With his ST, he would have cut off Albion's hand when it tried to punch camelot and destroyed Merlin's barrier. He could have also easily reflected the first attack from albion. It is not a similar comparison at all. Mel with his ST outclassed King and Chastefiol. Even after King released his ST, Mel's reflected attack was on par with it.

Mel's reflected attack was not on par with ST at all. The reflected was still not that big, and it can't be that the Albions blast has 5500 since that is the total amount of strength and physical power combined, so i wouldn't say it's most powerful blast was probably around 3500 at most. And it got divided into 5, which would make them each have 700 of power, wich should be slightly less than what I'm assuming is the maximum for each clone to handle. The reflected attack was more likely 7000 than 11000. And half of that power came from the albion itself. And the shield and holy knights were more defensive than Mel, who just deflected to of Albion's attacks, one of which was directed at him specifically. And hadn't it been for Merlin's floating mama hawk and Diane's throw Meliodas could probably not have even managed to reach Albion's arm. So, there you have it, Mel only did half the work, while King has taken as many strikes from an Albion as Merlin's shield, plus the energy blasts and unlike Mel. Also, Mel and Merlin knew about Albion beforehand and how to deal with it, while King was appearantly a complete stranger to the situation. Mel had several strategic advantages from the start, so if anyone outclassed anyone it was King who outclassed Meliodas.