Discussion Ranking the Sins

[lightningsha]

Why would Dreyfus need to know everything about his abilities anyway? It was a serious battle, is it necessary to know the abilities of your opponent when you are fighting him? There were training sessions back then, Dreyfus knows how Invasion works and tried to beat him but he was weaker than him, simple as that. He came back and momentarily stopped him because of Fraudrin. Even though he managed to block and injure Diane, it has been made pretty clear that Dreyfus is not at the level of the Sins, Gowther stopped him with ease, King could have killed him despite a surprise attack, he lost to Young Hendrickson, the same Hendrickson who was used as a punching bag by every Sins in Chapter 92, Gowther is the only one who didn't attack him(even though he could have done so) but he shown that he was clearly superior. Dreyfus would have lost easily regardless of his range, close range was his best chance against Gowther. He was at close range against Diane, he stopped Ground Gladius and used a Break beam to injure her.

The point you made was that Gowther wasn't relying on elements of surprise or any tactics not anticipated by his opponent, Dreyfus. Whatever you want to call it, mid-range/whatever, Dreyfus' break on Diane was not close enough where they could touch which was what I meant by short range. Where was it stated specifically Dreyfus knew how NT works from a training session? The LN? Here we are arguing Dreyfus' possible counter/avoidance to NT if he knew how it worked. I doubt he would have gone within touching distance if he knew that. We saw how serious he was in taking out Gowther before Gowther had the chance to do anything. Saying Gowther could have defeated him using other tactics is a possibility but that's still up in the air and we weren't talking about that scenario anyway.

Easier said than done, would Gowther stand still and let King slicing his body like that? Not only he can dodge, but he can take an attack, tank it without problems with his Doll body and retaliate, just like against Dreyfus.

Gowther's regeneration/re-attachment abilities are not instantaneous. Sure Gowther can keep dodging, but if he loses a leg for example then it would temporarily affect his maneuverability. That's King's chance to keep to chopping up more limbs.
Also that scene with Gowther punching out Dreyfus with a massive hole in his torso was part of Dreyfus' nightmare. They were both still the whole time once Gowther made contact. I'm not saying Gowther still couldn't do it, but in that particular scene that's not what happened.

How is King resisting Nightmare Teller? It's eternal once you are hit, again, Dreyfus woke up because of Fraudrin and had mental damages after this, he would probably live an horrible nightmare with Diane and his clan included worse than his bullying when he came back with Ban. He has been affected by Invasion at Edinburgh and noticed nothing even though Gowther was standing before him, even if he is affected by RW for like, 30 seconds it's more than enough to chop his head, with Jack he can control his body.

Resisting Nightmare Terror? When did I say he King could resist that? Unless shown otherwise, NT looks like it needs Gowther to touch the opponent. King so far looks like the one of the most difficult to get into close range with, so King would simply have to avoid getting too close to Gowther to avoid NT anyway. I was talking about the infiltration arrows- rewrite light, etc. Those are not permanent incapacitation. overlordpringerx also made a point of King having some abilities with manipulating the mind with his flowers, so come to think of it he might have some counter measure to those if he does get hit (although it's still speculation).
Anyway, I originally made the point that if King would get hit by one then it would give the chance to go in for a physical attack, which means he is finished. But like I said, we have no evidence against King not being able to dodge or counter those with his spear if he was on the alert for them. You're assuming King won't be able to counter multiple arrows with his Increase or whatever because they are faster, but we've never seen those moves being done side-by-side, so an assumption it remains.

 

[Demonspeed]

The point you made was that Gowther wasn't relying on elements of surprise or any tactics not anticipated by his opponent, Dreyfus. Whatever you want to call it, mid-range/whatever, Dreyfus' break on Diane was not close enough where they could touch which was what I meant by short range. Where was it stated specifically Dreyfus knew how NT works from a training session? The LN? Here we are arguing Dreyfus' possible counter/avoidance to NT if he knew how it worked. I doubt he would have gone within touching distance if he knew that. We saw how serious he was in taking out Gowther before Gowther had the chance to do anything. Saying Gowther could have defeated him using other tactics is a possibility but that's still up in the air and we weren't talking about that scenario anyway.

I said he doesn't only use elements of surprise, that's all. I didn't say he knew about NT, but he knew about Invasion, knowing all of his abilities is not necessary, you are the only one who talked about Dreyfus's possibilities of beating Gowther, I am saying that it's impossible, he is not at the level of the Sins, he would have lost easily, the following fights were more than enough to prove this, among the knights, the Sins are on another level entirely. Gowther didn't win with a particular tactic, he won by overpowering him.

Gowther's regeneration/re-attachment abilities are not instantaneous. Sure Gowther can keep dodging, but if he loses a leg for example then it would temporarily affect his maneuverability. That's King's chance to keep to chopping up more limbs.
Also that scene with Gowther punching out Dreyfus with a massive hole in his torso was part of Dreyfus' nightmare. They were both still the whole time once Gowther made contact. I'm not saying Gowther still couldn't do it, but in that particular scene that's not what happened.

I didn't even mention the scene of Gowther punching him, he took the hit and retaliated with his NT at close range. I have the impression that in your scenario, King is the only one attacking and Gowther is doing nothing but dodge.

Resisting Nightmare Terror? When did I say he King could resist that? Unless shown otherwise, NT looks like it needs Gowther to touch the opponent. King so far looks like the one of the most difficult to get into close range with, so King would simply have to avoid getting too close to Gowther to avoid NT anyway. I was talking about the infiltration arrows- rewrite light, etc. Those are not permanent incapacitation. overlordpringerx also made a point of King having some abilities with manipulating the mind with his flowers, so come to think of it he might have some counter measure to those if he does get hit (although it's still speculation).

There's absolutely no reason to think that Gowther can only use NT at close range, he used it at close range because Dreyfus came close to him. He doesn't need NT to beat him, it doesn't even have to be permanent(he can permanently do it ie Guila and Zeal), he has plenty of time to kill him even if it works for a dozen of seconds once he is hit. Gowther, like King, is a long range fighter, you can claim that King has countermeasures all you want he never displayed something like that in the story.

Anyway, I originally made the point that if King would get hit by one then it would give the chance to go in for a physical attack, which means he is finished. But like I said, we have no evidence against King not being able to dodge or counter those with his spear if he was on the alert for them. You're assuming King won't be able to counter multiple arrows with his Increase or whatever because they are faster, but we've never seen those moves being done side-by-side, so an assumption it remains.

No, I never said that. I said King could dodge and deflect his arrows with Increase but if he is hit once it's over for him while Gowther can dodge and deflect his daggers as well but these daggers are far less threatening that Invasion arrows and he has his Doll body. Never did I say that some projectiles are faster than the others.

 

[overlordpringerx]

I said he doesn't only use elements of surprise, that's all. I didn't say he knew about NT, but he knew about Invasion, knowing all of his abilities is not necessary, you are the only one who talked about Dreyfus's possibilities of beating Gowther, I am saying that it's impossible, he is not at the level of the Sins, he would have lost easily, the following fights were more than enough to prove this, among the knights, the Sins are on another level entirely. Gowther didn't win with a particular tactic, he won by overpowering him.



I didn't even mention the scene of Gowther punching him, he took the hit and retaliated with his NT at close range. I have the impression that in your scenario, King is the only one attacking and Gowther is doing nothing but dodge.



There's absolutely no reason to think that Gowther can only use NT at close range, he used it at close range because Dreyfus came close to him. He doesn't need NT to beat him, it doesn't even have to be permanent(he can permanently do it ie Guila and Zeal), he has plenty of time to kill him even if it works for a dozen of seconds once he is hit. Gowther, like King, is a long range fighter, you can claim that King has countermeasures all you want he never displayed something like that in the story.



No, I never said that. I said King could dodge and deflect his arrows with Increase but if he is hit once it's over for him while Gowther can dodge and deflect his daggers as well but these daggers are far less threatening that Invasion arrows and he has his Doll body. Never did I say that some projectiles are faster than the others.

I'm pretty sure King would be more than capable to stand getting hit by Gowther's arrows. And Gowther hasn't shown to be quick enough to dodge all of Increase's daggers. And until we see Gowther use NT from a distance, it's safe to assume he needs to put his hands on the enemy's head. Otherwise he would have probably used it against gray Hendy and Galan. And considering Gowther's fighting style, I think a long range GHK would be able to beat him. At least at a distance. Like Gil, for example, who is fast AND strong.

 

[lightningsha]

I said he doesn't only use elements of surprise, that's all. I didn't say he knew about NT, but he knew about Invasion, knowing all of his abilities is not necessary, you are the only one who talked about Dreyfus's possibilities of beating Gowther, I am saying that it's impossible, he is not at the level of the Sins, he would have lost easily, the following fights were more than enough to prove this, among the knights, the Sins are on another level entirely. Gowther didn't win with a particular tactic, he won by overpowering him.

I also didn't say Gowther relies solely on elements of surprises to defeat his opponents either. You used the Dreyfus fight as a counter example to this, saying Dreyfus knew of his ability and still lost. The wording made it seem like Dreyfus went in knowing everything about how Gowther fights, and still lost. Dreyfus knew of Infiltration and still lost. Not Dreyfus knew of NT and still lost. Clearly Dreyfus didn't know how NT worked. It's just the counter example you used is what I had gripes with.
We can both agree Gowther probably would have outdid Dreyfus either way, although I wouldn't claim it was impossible for Dreyfus to have any edge over Gowther if Gowther did not use NT. Gowther did say he would use all of his power to defeat Dreyfus after all.

I didn't even mention the scene of Gowther punching him, he took the hit and retaliated with his NT at close range. I have the impression that in your scenario, King is the only one attacking and Gowther is doing nothing but dodge.

You using the word 'retaliate' made me think you were referring to that scene with Gowther punching him out. The whole thing with the stabbing and head-touch happened within the same moment.
Actually the scenario in my head had quite the impressive display of Gowther dodging spears in while shooting arrows in midair occasionally, all while King dodging and blocking his too (Okay now this has made me want to see a cool battle like this). But anyway I was emphasizing that Gowther is not some almighty tank that can regenerate every second or so in the wake of a constant barrage of attacks. If Gowther loses and arm, leg, or head, King immediately has the edge. If King gets hit in the back of the neck with one of those arrows, Gowther has the edge. You made it out to seem King would be overwhelmed by a slew of arrows from Gowther. I don't see where you are getting this from especially since King has better means to block attack than Gowther. To compensate for this, Gowther is a better tank as you said, but its certainly not full proof.

There's absolutely no reason to think that Gowther can only use NT at close range, he used it at close range because Dreyfus came close to him. He doesn't need NT to beat him, it doesn't even have to be permanent(he can permanently do it ie Guila and Zeal), he has plenty of time to kill him even if it works for a dozen of seconds once he is hit. Gowther, like King, is a long range fighter, you can claim that King has countermeasures all you want he never displayed something like that in the story.

We have plenty of reason to believe Gowther can only use NT at close range. At least for now until seen otherwise. Gowther appeared to be sporting stance with arms wide for it before engaging. It was completely different that that used to launch his arrows. Then when we saw them later, Gowther had his hands on either side of Dreyfus' head with light flares coming out the back of them. The rest of that statement is more digression from NT I already addressed earlier

 

[kkck]

So far as we have seen the actual arrows gowther uses are not particularly dangerous, to anyone. His arrows so far use low level mind tricks which dispel rather quickly. If his arrows could be of significant use in a battle against someone whose strength is significant then I would argue it would make more sense to start with that against the likes of dreyfus, whom gowther faced head on within dreyfus' range solely to grab him. What we have seen from the arrows is mostly low level techniques which dispel when the target sees inconsistencies. Even if king got hit seeing gowther attack him or do anything in an offensive manner would immediately dispel the trick. Even then, it kinda seems like hitting king would be somewhat of a challenge altogether. And gowther did have trouble against a diane with only a fraction of her power.

 

[Demonspeed]

I also didn't say Gowther relies solely on elements of surprises to defeat his opponents either. You used the Dreyfus fight as a counter example to this, saying Dreyfus knew of his ability and still lost. The wording made it seem like Dreyfus went in knowing everything about how Gowther fights, and still lost. Dreyfus knew of Infiltration and still lost. Not Dreyfus knew of NT and still lost. Clearly Dreyfus didn't know how NT worked. It's just the counter example you used is what I had gripes with.
We can both agree Gowther probably would have outdid Dreyfus either way, although I wouldn't claim it was impossible for Dreyfus to have any edge over Gowther if Gowther did not use NT. Gowther did say he would use all of his power to defeat Dreyfus after all.

I am saying that knowing of NT is not necessary anyway, knowing the effects of his Magic is good already. Dreyfus would have lost no matter what because he is much weaker than the Sins, King could have immediately killed him when he attacked by surprise even, and he lost to young Hendrickson, who is fodder to the Sins. Gowther said he would use all of his power but Dreyfus didn't let him use his ST, he wanted to attack and finish him before he could use it and that's what he did, NT was used without Herrit.

You using the word 'retaliate' made me think you were referring to that scene with Gowther punching him out. The whole thing with the stabbing and head-touch happened within the same moment.

The scene was not clearly shown but what I wanted to say is that if you are close enough to attack him like that, he can do the same too, Dreyfus is the one who took the initiative, he attack Gowther and Gowther used NT.

Actually the scenario in my head had quite the impressive display of Gowther dodging spears in while shooting arrows in midair occasionally, all while King dodging and blocking his too (Okay now this has made me want to see a cool battle like this). But anyway I was emphasizing that Gowther is not some almighty tank that can regenerate every second or so in the wake of a constant barrage of attacks. If Gowther loses and arm, leg, or head, King immediately has the edge. If King gets hit in the back of the neck with one of those arrows, Gowther has the edge. You made it out to seem King would be overwhelmed by a slew of arrows from Gowther. I don't see where you are getting this from especially since King has better means to block attack than Gowther. To compensate for this, Gowther is a better tank as you said, but its certainly not full proof.

Gowther has no regeneration, he can fix his body parts, I don't think losing an arm would be that handicapping but I am mentioning his Doll body for good reasons, Gowther can take dangerous attacks without problems and react immediately, it's not the same for King, who has no regeneration or something similar. I didn't say that Gowther would have the edge in that exchange, I said Gowther has more chances to win because Increase is not very dangerous if you are not hit by several daggers, its individual power is weak, this is not the case for Invasion arrows, he can mind control you once you are hit.

We have plenty of reason to believe Gowther can only use NT at close range. At least for now until seen otherwise. Gowther appeared to be sporting stance with arms wide for it before engaging. It was completely different that that used to launch his arrows. Then when we saw them later, Gowther had his hands on either side of Dreyfus' head with light flares coming out the back of them. The rest of that statement is more digression from NT I already addressed earlier

Gowther was planning to use Herrit but Dreyfus didn't give him the time to use it, he is a long range fighter, I dont see why the strongest attack he used would be limited to close range, it doesn't make sense, especially when his ST is a magic bow.

So far as we have seen the actual arrows gowther uses are not particularly dangerous, to anyone. His arrows so far use low level mind tricks which dispel rather quickly. If his arrows could be of significant use in a battle against someone whose strength is significant then I would argue it would make more sense to start with that against the likes of dreyfus, whom gowther faced head on within dreyfus' range solely to grab him. What we have seen from the arrows is mostly low level techniques which dispel when the target sees inconsistencies. Even if king got hit seeing gowther attack him or do anything in an offensive manner would immediately dispel the trick. Even then, it kinda seems like hitting king would be somewhat of a challenge altogether. And gowther did have trouble against a diane with only a fraction of her power.

Low level mind tricks? That's his Magic and he is the best illusionist so far as well as a Sin, he shoots his arrows and the effects are different depending on the techniques he uses, we didn't see any of his spells being dispelled by someone. If it was not dangerous people would not block or try to dodge it. Rewrite Light wears off when they realize inconsistencies in their memories and it's not something you can do immediately it works as long as you don't realize it, during this time Gowther has plenty of time to kill you, Blackout is limited to people with less than 400 in Spirit, with Jack he can control the body of someone else, Nightmare Teller is the strongest ability he used so far. His illusions worked on the Sins as well as Galan, how it it not dangerous?

 

[lightningsha]

I am saying that knowing of NT is not necessary anyway, knowing the effects of his Magic is good already. Dreyfus would have lost no matter what because he is much weaker than the Sins, King could have immediately killed him when he attacked by surprise even, and he lost to young Hendrickson, who is fodder to the Sins. Gowther said he would use all of his power but Dreyfus didn't let him use his ST, he wanted to attack and finish him before he could use it and that's what he did, NT was used without Herrit.

Dreyfus didn't come in knowing all of Gowther's abilities was the only point I was trying to make with this matter. Dreyfus did a number on Diane but was outdone by Gowther and King. Of course by the time he got to King, he was already mentally weakened by Gowther. But his internal monologue about King's power or whatever might be sufficient enough to assume King could have beaten him anyway. So yes, I agree the Sins are generally, and especially from now on, stronger than Dreyfus.

Gowther has no regeneration, he can fix his body parts, I don't think losing an arm would be that handicapping but I am mentioning his Doll body for good reasons, Gowther can take dangerous attacks without problems and react immediately, it's not the same for King, who has no regeneration or something similar. I didn't say that Gowther would have the edge in that exchange, I said Gowther has more chances to win because Increase is not very dangerous if you are not hit by several daggers, its individual power is weak, this is not the case for Invasion arrows, he can mind control you once you are hit.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness of Gowther's arrows against King's Increase and other forms. Until we see them fighting side by side against one target or an actual fight between them, we can't know for sure.

Gowther was planning to use Herrit but Dreyfus didn't give him the time to use it, he is a long range fighter, I dont see why the strongest attack he used would be limited to close range, it doesn't make sense, especially when his ST is a magic bow.

As I've said, much evidence so far points to NT being short range. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you or not. Also, is NT really his strongest attack? As you've mentioned he didn't use his ST. It's safe to assume his strongest attack would involve his ST I think, so we've probably yet to see it.

 

[overlordpringerx]

It makes perfect sense that NT would only work from up close. Similar to how revenge counter and true Chastiefol are Mel's and King's strongest abilities but also very risky for the user each in their own way, the same probably applies to Gowther and NT. It might be his strongest ability, but he needs to put his head into the lion's mouth. It's the author's way to avoid making him OP. If there wasn't some catch to NT Gowther would be number 1 in the ranking.

 

[Demonspeed]

Dreyfus didn't come in knowing all of Gowther's abilities was the only point I was trying to make with this matter. Dreyfus did a number on Diane but was outdone by Gowther and King. Of course by the time he got to King, he was already mentally weakened by Gowther. But his internal monologue about King's power or whatever might be sufficient enough to assume King could have beaten him anyway. So yes, I agree the Sins are generally, and especially from now on, stronger than Dreyfus.

Yes, he blocked Ground Gladius and injured Diane but we all know why all of this happened. He was not weakened against King, he took his time to recover after NT and attacked him, it's rather King who had injuries, Dreyfus also attacked by surprise, he was easily beaten, he lost to young Hendrickson with Demon powers, who is no match for the Sins(Chapter 92), he tried to take the initiative to beat Gowther and got oneshotted, Dreyfus is no match for them.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness of Gowther's arrows against King's Increase and other forms. Until we see them fighting side by side against one target or an actual fight between them, we can't know for sure.

Isn't it why we are discussing? How can you doubt of the effectiveness of Gowther's Invasion on King when it worked on everyone(and he is included) so far? Only Blackout has a limit, Invasion is not a simple trick, it's a Magic. As for King's Increase, its individual power is weak, it's only effective when several of them hit at once.

As I've said, much evidence so far points to NT being short range. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you or not. Also, is NT really his strongest attack? As you've mentioned he didn't use his ST. It's safe to assume his strongest attack would involve his ST I think, so we've probably yet to see it.

The strongest he used so far. There's no evidence that it's limited to short range, it was only because Dreyfus came close to him, as you said yourself he was planning to use his ST.

It makes perfect sense that NT would only work from up close. Similar to how revenge counter and true Chastiefol are Mel's and King's strongest abilities but also very risky for the user each in their own way, the same probably applies to Gowther and NT. It might be his strongest ability, but he needs to put his head into the lion's mouth. It's the author's way to avoid making him OP. If there wasn't some catch to NT Gowther would be number 1 in the ranking.

No it doesn't. Full Counter, Counter Vanish, Revenge Counter, they are all close range, King's True Chastiefol can be used at long range and I doubt it's his strongest attack, the way I see it it's just the true appearance of Chastiefol, he should be able to use other forms like Guardian and the rest with the spear like that as well, but he's unable to do it as of now, I think he just released it and pierced Albion. It's not confirmed that NT t is Gowther's strongest attack as well, it's the strongest he used so far, and it was without his ST. And if it's the risk then it's very low, because he can take an attack and use it immediately, that's what happened against Dreyfus, had it not been for Fraudrin, Gowther would have been perfectly fine and beaten Helbram. All the Sins are supposed to be OP and unlike Increase, Invasion is magic so it can be Full Countered or nullified, it's not breaking something like Perfect Cube as well, who can teleport with ease. In terms of pure skills the Sin who seems to be the most OP so far is Merlin.

 

[overlordpringerx]

yeah it does make sense. Revenge counter's downside is that if Meliodas isn't careful he dies. Release causes physical damage to King, and it's not guaranteed to work. Sunshine only works during the day. Those are all different downsides that affect the user in different ways. NT hasn't caused any real damage to Gowther apart from the close range. So it is A) possible to break out of WITHOUT a second mind and not his strongest skill, or B) a close range attack that leaves him vulnerable to attacks. It would make sense for him not to dash at Dreyfus. He was already charging for Gowther, so Gowther decided to wait and put his hands on Dreyfus's head exactly when he needed to, as just a splitsecond to late or early could be fatal for Gowther. And the two times Gowther got stabbed in the chest he got really weak, proving that is his weakpoint.

 

[Demonspeed]

yeah it does make sense. Revenge counter's downside is that if Meliodas isn't careful he dies. Release causes physical damage to King, and it's not guaranteed to work. Sunshine only works during the day. Those are all different downsides that affect the user in different ways. NT hasn't caused any real damage to Gowther apart from the close range. So it is A) possible to break out of WITHOUT a second mind and not his strongest skill, or B) a close range attack that leaves him vulnerable to attacks. It would make sense for him not to dash at Dreyfus. He was already charging for Gowther, so Gowther decided to wait and put his hands on Dreyfus's head exactly when he needed to, as just a splitsecond to late or early could be fatal for Gowther. And the two times Gowther got stabbed in the chest he got really weak, proving that is his weakpoint.

All abilities don't work the same way but you are trying too hard to find downsides to them. NT is not his strongest ability, it's the strongest he used so far, an ability he used without his ST can't be considered his strongest. His Release is different from the regular Chastiefol entirely, all the other forms he used had no downsides, when Gowther used NT, he only got stabbed by Dreyfus, such a thing is nothing for him.

Dash at someone is not the first thing you are supposed think about and Gowther is mainly a long range fighter, he was going to use his ST, Dreyfus simply charged at him to try to beat him in one hit, Gowther didn't wait or anything. It's well explained and shown in the chapter. There's no proof that his chest is a weak point, it's not the stab which affected him.

 

[overlordpringerx]

i'm not trying to find downsides to them. We already know they are there because we've seen it. And we don't actually know what Gowther was gonna do. And if NT isn't Gowther's most powerful ability then it's probably breakable and avoidable to someone like King. Awareness for example might break it. And so far, everything he did from close up, he did from a distance too, even without Harlot, except for NT.

 

[Demonspeed]

i'm not trying to find downsides to them. We already know they are there because we've seen it. And we don't actually know what Gowther was gonna do. And if NT isn't Gowther's most powerful ability then it's probably breakable and avoidable to someone like King. Awareness for example might break it.

Gowther was going to use his ST so he was going to shoot Invasion arrows, the technique he would have used is unknown. No one said it's impossible to break his illusions but NT has been described as an illusion which traps you forever and his illusions worked on everyone so far, King included, even on Galan so you can't say that he will break it as if it was the easiest thing to do in the world, while trapped in a illusion he has more than enough time to kill someone. No magic is perfect but so far the downsides of Invasion are that it's purely magical and doesn't affect the physical body, all the rest is speculation. Dreyfus called it the most dangerous ability of the Sins and it's easy to see why.

And so far, everything he did from close up, he did from a distance too, even without Harlot, except for NT.

No, he didn't.

 

[kkck]

To me it does not look like NT could work remotely. Gowther never seemed particularly intent on keeping the fight at a range. I mean, the first thing he did was literally put himself right in front of dreyfus. Which is not the wisest thing if he planned on taking him on at a range. There are plenty of other more coherent alternatives courses of action if he intents on fighting a long range battle. For instance, not closing his distance with dreyfus at all. Then there is the fact that he remained in contact with dreyfus through the whole thing. Specifically for NT gowther went inside dreyfus' mind, we saw him there which is where fraudrin got to gowther. If contact was not specifically required for the technique then I don't particularly see a reason for him to maintain it. The alternative would be that he could enter people's minds like in NT without contact... which would mean gowther has wifi?

 

[Holt]

Until proven otherwise, we'd simply have to assume that NT works via direct contact. I'd agree that NT might not be his 'strongest move' but the 'strongest one' we have seen so far, however, Gowther's bow just seems to increase his range for the most part. The only time we saw a boost in his power was when Merlin amplified his magic so while I believe his ST should offer more options, I don't really think it would increase the power behind his attacks. Mel's ST for instance ends up dividing his power rather than increasing it but offers him numbers which can help with diversion and also for multiple attacks. It could be a similar case with Gowther as well.

 

[overlordpringerx]

Until proven otherwise, we'd simply have to assume that NT works via direct contact. I'd agree that NT might not be his 'strongest move' but the 'strongest one' we have seen so far, however, Gowther's bow just seems to increase his range for the most part. The only time we saw a boost in his power was when Merlin amplified his magic so while I believe his ST should offer more options, I don't really think it would increase the power behind his attacks. Mel's ST for instance ends up dividing his power rather than increasing it but offers him numbers which can help with diversion and also for multiple attacks. It could be a similar case with Gowther as well.

Actually all ST should unleash their owners power and have a special ability themselves. Thats how I interpreted it at least.

 

[kkck]

Actually all ST should unleash their owners power and have a special ability themselves. Thats how I interpreted it at least.

I'd say that to a limited extent it depends on the ability. As a general rule ST should unleash the power of the user proportionally to the weapon's capabilities. With standard power based abilities this would be pretty straightforward. A better weapon equals more power. It also seems like weapons themselves can influence the physical capacity of those who use them. So using a better weapon would allow you to hit harder and move faster thanks to the extra power. I say that based on the sin's early performance against guila and co and the comments on mel's speed when using lostvayne. Though I am not 100% sure... Then there are the abilities that aren't power based... The king's vision, meliodas' fullcounter, gowther's invasion... They aren't power based so the weapon's quality does not work the same way as with others. I don't see gowther's illusions getting stronger thanks to his weapon. If anything he did not use it when using nightmare teller. Meliodas' ST does not make FC more powerful, it simply gives him more swords to use FC with. Similar to herrit, it so far only increases range. I guess we have yet to confirm what its ability is.

 

[Holt]

Actually all ST should unleash their owners power and have a special ability themselves. Thats how I interpreted it at least.

Well it amplifies their abilities and have innate ones as well, however, not all of them actually increase strength. Like the example I gave with lostvayne, the sword itself is very powerful but it's specially ability doesn't 'amplify' Mel's strength but rather divides so he has more options. I don't see Gowther's bow increasing his fighting ability but rather his range and maybe strength/speed of his arrows.

 

[kkck]

Well it amplifies their abilities and have innate ones as well, however, not all of them actually increase strength. Like the example I gave with lostvayne, the sword itself is very powerful but it's specially ability doesn't 'amplify' Mel's strength but rather divides so he has more options. I don't see Gowther's bow increasing his fighting ability but rather his range and maybe strength/speed of his arrows.

As far as I can tell LV does not actually split meliodas' strength. I mean, his power does not seem to decrease as he makes clones. Now, the clones themselves do have a portion of mel's strength. The first one has half his PL and each subsequent one has the corresponding fraction to that clone depending on how many he makes. It seems like amking the clones comes to no cost to mel at all.

 

[overlordpringerx]

Well it amplifies their abilities and have innate ones as well, however, not all of them actually increase strength. Like the example I gave with lostvayne, the sword itself is very powerful but it's specially ability doesn't 'amplify' Mel's strength but rather divides so he has more options. I don't see Gowther's bow increasing his fighting ability but rather his range and maybe strength/speed of his arrows.

thats not what I meant. I meant it makes individual abilities, like full counter and Disaster, less exhausting.