Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Firepower]

1. Anksheram
2. Acno, E.N.D
3. Zeref
4. August
5. Gildartz, Laxus, some spriggans, Gray, Jellal
6. Gajeel, remaining spriggans

About Gray: he said that he has some ace left or something and I think that his training was based on the determination to fight END, so I rank him high because of his potential.

I don't think End is Acnologia's level. Natsu said if he is end Igneel would have whooped him any day of the week. Zeref responding agreeing it wasn't because Igneel didn't have the physical strength to kill him, it's that he didn't have the heart.

I also gotta make a new ranking after reading the last chapter. I always thought that Erza and Laxus were about the same level, with how Makarov hinted it was possible and Mystogan emphasizing that Erza would be able to beat Laxus, telling Laxus after they fought for a bit as he was leaving. So it's either Laxus is stronger than Erza now, or Ajeel is stronger than Wahl. Or Ajeel sucked a lot of Erza's power out of her while she couldn't requip because of Marin. The moment a spriggan is defeated they are considered weak or weaker than the others, which I doubt is the case. Nor that the stronger spriggan fight later. Reading the manga, Ajeel is a warrior trying to get first dibs in any fight. Was happy that Natsu had power in his punch, calling it a good punch, which he hasn't been hit with in a long time. He almost didn't have his guard up at all against Erza. She sliced Ajeel, with him testing her strength, not believing her other requip had an element that would pierce through his sand armor. The sand storm was only the beginning of his power. The Jupitor shot was probably only for distraction, with Erza's attack being the real finisher. Regardless that wasn't the best fight to watch.

 

[Stormsfury]

I don't think End is Acnologia's level. Natsu said if he is end Igneel would have whooped him any day of the week. Zeref responding agreeing it wasn't because Igneel didn't have the physical strength to kill him, it's that he didn't have the heart.

I also gotta make a new ranking after reading the last chapter. I always thought that Erza and Laxus were about the same level, with how Makarov hinted it was possible and Mystogan emphasizing that Erza would be able to beat Laxus, telling Laxus after they fought for a bit as he was leaving. So it's either Laxus is stronger than Erza now, or Ajeel is stronger than Wahl. Or Ajeel sucked a lot of Erza's power out of her while she couldn't requip because of Marin. The moment a spriggan is defeated they are considered weak or weaker than the others, which I doubt is the case. Nor that the stronger spriggan fight later. Reading the manga, Ajeel is a warrior trying to get first dibs in any fight. Was happy that Natsu had power in his punch, calling it a good punch, which he hasn't been hit with in a long time. He almost didn't have his guard up at all against Erza. She sliced Ajeel, with him testing her strength, not believing her other requip had an element that would pierce through his sand armor. The sand storm was only the beginning of his power. The Jupitor shot was probably only for distraction, with Erza's attack being the real finisher. Regardless that wasn't the best fight to watch.

I'm pretty sure Laxus has always been stronger than Erza, I can't remember a point in the story where I considered Erza to be stronger, this was showcased when Mashima chose Laxus to fight and beat Jura and when Laxus performed better than the entirety of team Natsu against Hades alone. Wahl was feared by Brandish and Marin if I recall correctly, so I'm pretty sure he would be considered stronger than Ajeel.

 

[Firepower]

I'm pretty sure Laxus has always been stronger than Erza, I can't remember a point in the story where I considered Erza to be stronger, this was showcased when Mashima chose Laxus to fight and beat Jura and when Laxus performed better than the entirety of team Natsu against Hades alone. Wahl was feared by Brandish and Marin if I recall correctly, so I'm pretty sure he would be considered stronger than Ajeel.

Erza vs Ajeel was disappointing. From what we've seen Laxus is stronger than Erza. I agree.

On another subject, many are getting the wrong impression of Erza, particularly because of her fight with Azuma. And that's what everyone is using to rank her. First off Azuma had an overwhelming advantage due to the area they were fighting in. He can merge with trees, which they were syrrounded by, including above and below him. That made it easy to escape, surprise attack, and attacks coming out from anywhere.

Second was that, that attack he used to pretty much knockout Erza was not his own power, but an ability he has to take the magic from the earth. Exactly as Goku uses the spirit bomb when he doesn't have sufficient power to win on his own, when the enemy is stronger than he is.

Third is that he can blow anything up without even touching it. That more advantagous than Jackal that blows up anything he touches.

Erza vs Azuma was meant to show that Erza fights not to be the strongest, but that she fights to protect those dear to her. So when Azuma's spirit bomb attack knocked Erza on her ass, she knew also that if she didn't beat him, the rest of her friends would die for sure because their magic was getting sucked out of them, and that they would die if she didn't do anything. Azuma fights because he is strong and wants to get stronger, and said he wanted to test Erza on this drive she has that makes her this strong.

She took the spirit bomb style attack, proved that her will to protect her friends was strong. The second earth magic attack chose to support Erza. Because the earth has no favorites, but being that it's Tenrou island and that she was fighting for good, the earth took her side and dished out the same attack that hit her combined with her sword slash. Erza gets up from the earth magic attack, Azuma does not.

Azuma can blow things up just by lifting his hand, Jackal has to touch them. Erza always has to fight the ones with bs abilities, and gets hate for it. She was also beating Kyoka the whole way, and was never losing. What is any mage supposed to do if their senses are taken away randomly by some bs power? The drive she has to not give up is immeasurable. Mashima needs to give Erza real fights, not just against those with bs abilities because many are getting the wrong impression.

 

[Stormsfury]

Erza vs Ajeel was disappointing. From what we've seen Laxus is stronger than Erza. I agree.

On another subject, many are getting the wrong impression of Erza, particularly because of her fight with Azuma. And that's what everyone is using to rank her. First off Azuma had an overwhelming advantage due to the area they were fighting in. He can merge with trees, which they were syrrounded by, including above and below him. That made it easy to escape, surprise attack, and attacks coming out from anywhere.

Second was that, that attack he used to pretty much knockout Erza was not his own power, but an ability he has to take the magic from the earth. Exactly as Goku uses the spirit bomb when he doesn't have sufficient power to win on his own, when the enemy is stronger than he is.

Third is that he can blow anything up without even touching it. That more advantagous than Jackal that blows up anything he touches.

Erza vs Azuma was meant to show that Erza fights not to be the strongest, but that she fights to protect those dear to her. So when Azuma's spirit bomb attack knocked Erza on her ass, she knew also that if she didn't beat him, the rest of her friends would die for sure because their magic was getting sucked out of them, and that they would die if she didn't do anything. Azuma fights because he is strong and wants to get stronger, and said he wanted to test Erza on this drive she has that makes her this strong.

She took the spirit bomb style attack, proved that her will to protect her friends was strong. The second earth magic attack chose to support Erza. Because the earth has no favorites, but being that it's Tenrou island and that she was fighting for good, the earth took her side and dished out the same attack that hit her combined with her sword slash. Erza gets up from the earth magic attack, Azuma does not.

Azuma can blow things up just by lifting his hand, Jackal has to touch them. Erza always has to fight the ones with bs abilities, and gets hate for it. She was also beating Kyoka the whole way, and was never losing. What is any mage supposed to do if their senses are taken away randomly by some bs power? The drive she has to not give up is immeasurable. Mashima needs to give Erza real fights, not just against those with bs abilities because many are getting the wrong impression.

I don't remember the fight that well but your description of the whole thing right there made me cringe, "the earth choosing her side because she's fighting for good" "it happened because she fights for those she loves", yeah usually when I watch peoples fights and I bring it to the power scaling system, I leave out all of the PiS because it's literally unfair to have someone fight Erza with that there, I rank characters from the intelligence, speed, versatility, strength, durability, endurance and magic power.

I also include hype sometimes when we don't have enough information to go on.

 

[Brandish μ]

Erza v Azuma is sometimes called a BS fight, and I get it's not your standard fight due to PoF use, but it's not BS within the context of magic in Fairy Tail. Azuma stated that the MP that he used from Tenrou that he thought he controlled was actually protecting Erza. The Tenrou power also has the MP from the FT members whose magic was sapped from Azuma, so that's why she was able to be protected and then perform her finisher. It's a PoF moment, but PoF is a legit power in FT, and is seen again that arc when Mavis uses guild members feelings to use Fairy Sphere. Tbh Erza winning that fight is more acceptable than Laxus transforming his lighting to red - which I'm hoping we get some clarity about.

On Laxus v Erza he's always been a tier above her, and that seemingly hasn't changed. If anything he's widened the gap.

This is due to training, which I'm finding has been consistent so far with power inflations. Natsu trained the most and has improved the most. It is likely that Laxus was second in amount of training, and he's showed that. The rest seem to have about the same amount of training hype so we'll wait and see just how much they've all grown. Erza seemingly hasn't improved as much as Laxus, and definitely not as much as Natsu.

 

[iDooom]

My eyes stop on this: Gildarts. GOI. Why?

Gildarts is one of the most overrated characters on this forum. Gildarts only fought against Bluenote, and if Ajeel is considered a "glass cannon", Bluenote would be a wet paper towel. Makarov said that GMG Jura would give him a good fight, so I'm giving him a benefit of the doubt by putting him on the same level as the GOI, who are quite a bit stronger than GMG Jura.

The GOI caught Serena off guard, threw presumably their strongest attacks attacks at him, and did very little damage. Based on this, I would put them a tier or two below God Serena. Now if God Serena turned out to be one of the strongest Spriggans, I could consider placing Hyberion on the bottom of the Spriggan tier. However, there currently isn't evidence to suggest Serena is a top tier Spriggan.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Gildarts is one of the most overrated characters on this forum. Gildarts only fought against Bluenote, and if Ajeel is considered a "glass cannon", Bluenote would be a wet paper towel. Makarov said that GMG Jura would give him a good fight, so I'm giving him a benefit of the doubt by putting him on the same level as the GOI, who are quite a bit stronger than GMG Jura.

The GOI caught Serena off guard, threw presumably their strongest attacks attacks at him, and did very little damage. Based on this, I would put them a tier or two below God Serena. Now if God Serena turned out to be one of the strongest Spriggans, I could consider placing Hyberion on the bottom of the Spriggan tier. However, there currently isn't evidence to suggest Serena is a top tier Spriggan.

I think you are underrating Gildarts. Nobody is overrating him except giving him the credit he deserves. The problem with your comparison which 90% of others fall into the exact same trap is comparing characters from two different timeskips.

Gildarts fought against Bluenote and defeated him. We are talking X784 here. Someone like Natsu could barely move Gildarts who was assumed to have been using less than 25% of his total power. Tell me how the comparison between Ajeel and Bluenote would determine Gildarts' power. This is the exact same problem many other users won't seem to realize. First, Gildarts was never equal to Bluenote. In fact, he was noticeably stronger. Second, Bluenote not improving in Alvarez Arc does not correlate to Gildarts' not improving either. I'm pretty sure you have heard of the phrase "Correlation does not imply Causation". Anyways, this is the discrepancy I'm talking about. Trying to predict someone's power in the future never works as it depends on how much they train. Would you expect Rogue to be as strong has his future self if he was never shown? Would you expect Natsu to two-shot Ikusa-Tsunagi before the Avatar/Alvarez Arc? Would you expect Wendy to be able to defeat a Demon Gate by herself before the Tartaros Arc started? Answer To All Questions: No.

Now let me give you a clear scenario that will prove my point. In X792, we see Natsu one-shot Bluenote. Congratulations, we know Natsu is stronger than Tenrou Gildarts... Does that tell us anything about Alvarez Gildarts? No, because this was 8 years after his last appearance. It is essentially more than the 7 year difference between Natsu and Future Rogue himself during the Eclipse Arc of which we clearly saw Natsu on the losing end. But Tartaros Natsu beats Tartaros Rogue right? Therefore, one cannot say anybody is stronger than Gildarts. That is why I disagree with people who jump to conclusions and rank Laxus or Natsu higher. If you're comparing characters with Gildarts, you either have to declare the stronger of the two as inconclusive or compare from the same timeskip. Until Gildarts makes an appearance, we cannot determine whether he is fodder level or God level.

Note that there are obvious exceptions. Someone like Elfman, Evergreen, Levy, Lisanna, and others will definitely be weaker than someone like Laxus in every arc. Why? Because that is the intended character development by Hiro Mashima and never have they show power equal or close to him. In fact, they were always clearly weaker.

 

[Dranzer]

Sorry but how lyon and kagura are on the same level as jura ? How minerva wendy and the twin dragons are on the same level as the Goi ?

I agree that Lyon may not exactly be on the same level as Jura so I understand your conception, but when I say Kagura is on Jura's level, I definitely think that she is on his level if not past his level. Also I said the Goi are on the same level as Wendy, Minerva and the Twin Dragons because when it comes down to feats, the God of Ishgar have been rendered null. Whereas Wendy and the twin dragons have Dragon Force and Minerva has been showed to be a formidable opponent on many occasions.

 

[iDooom]

I think you are underrating Gildarts. Nobody is overrating him except giving him the credit he deserves. The problem with your comparison which 90% of others fall into the exact same trap is comparing characters from two different timeskips.

Gildarts fought against Bluenote and defeated him. We are talking X784 here. Someone like Natsu could barely move Gildarts who was assumed to have been using less than 25% of his total power. Tell me how the comparison between Ajeel and Bluenote would determine Gildarts' power. This is the exact same problem many other users won't seem to realize. First, Gildarts was never equal to Bluenote. In fact, he was noticeably stronger. Second, Bluenote not improving in Alvarez Arc does not correlate to Gildarts' not improving either. I'm pretty sure you have heard of the phrase "Correlation does not imply Causation". Anyways, this is the discrepancy I'm talking about. Trying to predict someone's power in the future never works as it depends on how much they train. Would you expect Rogue to be as strong has his future self if he was never shown? Would you expect Natsu to two-shot Ikusa-Tsunagi before the Avatar/Alvarez Arc? Would you expect Wendy to be able to defeat a Demon Gate by herself before the Tartaros Arc started? Answer To All Questions: No.

Now let me give you a clear scenario that will prove my point. In X792, we see Natsu one-shot Bluenote. Congratulations, we know Natsu is stronger than Tenrou Gildarts... Does that tell us anything about Alvarez Gildarts? No, because this was 8 years after his last appearance. It is essentially more than the 7 year difference between Natsu and Future Rogue himself during the Eclipse Arc of which we clearly saw Natsu on the losing end. But Tartaros Natsu beats Tartaros Rogue right? Therefore, one cannot say anybody is stronger than Gildarts. That is why I disagree with people who jump to conclusions and rank Laxus or Natsu higher. If you're comparing characters with Gildarts, you either have to declare the stronger of the two as inconclusive or compare from the same timeskip. Until Gildarts makes an appearance, we cannot determine whether he is fodder level or God level.

Note that there are obvious exceptions. Someone like Elfman, Evergreen, Levy, Lisanna, and others will definitely be weaker than someone like Laxus in every arc. Why? Because that is the intended character development by Hiro Mashima and never have they show power equal or close to him. In fact, they were always clearly weaker.

I have always thought that Gildarts was stronger than Bluenote, hence why I only put him one tier below Ajeel. Someone like Bluenote would be at least two or three tiers below Ajeel. Of course, I do not know exactly how strong Gildarts is, so my list is a prediction. I do not have to know exactly how strong Max is after this timeskip, but I'm pretty darn sure he's not close to Spriggan level.

I think its reasonable to assume that Gildarts did not improve, especially not at the same rate as the younger characters. Like Bluenote, Gildarts is one of the older characters in the series. Compare Bluenote to say Lyon; Lyon improved much more over the timeskips than Bluenote did. Same with Kagura, Sherria, Jura, and other minor characters. It is also quite apparent that one of the oldest characters in the series, Makarov, did not improve over the timeskip. Now this makes a lot of sense, since in real life people generally are most physically fit in when they are around 20-30. Gildarts probably already hit his peak, if not already lost power after losing an arm and a leg to Acno.

Btw, Gildarts was only away for 1 year because he was also stuck on TI for 7 years. Bluenote would have had 8 years tho.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I have always thought that Gildarts was stronger than Bluenote, hence why I only put him one tier below Ajeel. Someone like Bluenote would be at least two or three tiers below Ajeel. Of course, I do not know exactly how strong Gildarts is, so my list is a prediction. I do not have to know exactly how strong Max is after this timeskip, but I'm pretty darn sure he's not close to Spriggan level.

I think its reasonable to assume that Gildarts did not improve, especially not at the same rate as the younger characters. Like Bluenote, Gildarts is one of the older characters in the series. Compare Bluenote to say Lyon; Lyon improved much more over the timeskips than Bluenote did. Same with Kagura, Sherria, Jura, and other minor characters. It is also quite apparent that one of the oldest characters in the series, Makarov, did not improve over the timeskip. Now this makes a lot of sense, since in real life people generally are most physically fit in when they are around 20-30. Gildarts probably already hit his peak, if not already lost power after losing an arm and a leg to Acno.

Well, it is your opinion, so I respect that...but I don't see how it can be referred to as a reasonable assumption. If anything, this misleading conclusion is what many users depend on to hype their favorite character or their bias and downplay the real strong ones. I'd have to disagree with your explanation about the age of the characters. Usually in a manga or anime, age has very little impact on the performance of a character. Real-life applications shouldn't be compared to a fictional series or there would be no use of implementing magic and fantasies. For example, Precht/Hades is very old but still defeats someone like Laxus or Natsu. Additional examples include Warrod, Makarov, etc. Besides, Gildarts is like 30-40 years old. He shouldn't really be affected by age that much. I agree with you that there are characters that are obvious but how can we predict Gildarts to be weaker than the top tiers of the series when he was a top tier at one point. That takes massive evidence and explanations.

Btw, Gildarts was only away for 1 year because he was also stuck on TI for 7 years. Bluenote would have had 8 years tho.

Sorry about my confusing post. Perhaps the indirect comparison was hard to understand. I'll try to explain it more clearly. My overall point was that we cannot determine Gildarts' strength. Natsu who is obviously stronger than Current Rogue was losing against Future Rogue. Would we think of that beforehand? No. Why can't GMG Natsu beat Future Rogue? Difference in Timeline.

My previous analogy is very similar I was trying to get at the fact that just because Natsu was able to one-shot Bluenote, it doesn't tell us anything about Gildarts. When I said 8 year difference, I was referring to the gap between Gildarts and Bluenote. For all we know, Gildarts could have improved and become stronger than both Bluenote and Natsu. There is no proof to equate Current Bluenote with Current Gildarts because we can't predict how much Gildarts' trained. Therefore, can we say that Natsu beats Gildarts because he is "portrayed" to be "equal" to Bluenote? No. Why? Timeskip.

 

[Brandish μ]

It should be noted that the timeskip is really only valid to those who trained. There's been 7 year timeskips and 3 month timeskips... but we have never seen anything close to the growth that Natsu, Laxus or even Erza have shown in the most recent timeskip. Future Rogue would have been stomped by current Natsu. It can be seen with Makarov, Bluenote and Jura this arc that they're not given the same improvement as someone like Natsu... and those guys were top tiers.

Gildarts needs to train it's as simple as that - or he'd be defeated in much the same fashion as Bluenote or Jura have in this arc. He has some hype - training with Cana. But the guy is also closer to his magical potential than Natsu was, so you'd doubt that even equivalent training would net equivalent improvement. I think he'll come back stronger, maybe on the level of base Natsu. He'll get better treatment than Jura in my view purely because he's a member of Fairy Tail.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

It should be noted that the timeskip is really only valid to those who trained. There's been 7 year timeskips and 3 month timeskips... but we have never seen anything close to the growth that Natsu, Laxus or even Erza have shown in the most recent timeskip. Future Rogue would have been stomped by current Natsu. It can be seen with Makarov, Bluenote and Jura this arc that they're not given the same improvement as someone like Natsu... and those guys were top tiers.

Gildarts needs to train it's as simple as that - or he'd be defeated in much the same fashion as Bluenote or Jura have in this arc. He has some hype - training with Cana. But the guy is also closer to his magical potential than Natsu was, so you'd doubt that even equivalent training would net equivalent improvement. I think he'll come back stronger, maybe on the level of base Natsu. He'll get better treatment than Jura in my view purely because he's a member of Fairy Tail.

Exactly. But the real question here is if they trained or not and by how much did their power increase. Until we've seen feats, the answer is not determined. Gildarts could be Bluenote Fodder Level or August Level at this point... The reason why we haven't seen anybody close to the growth in power from Laxus or Natsu is because not all of them are revealed yet. Until then, this situation can be defined by the statement "Innocent, until Proven Guilty" or "Inconclusive, until Feats Shown" in this case.

Sure, you can say that Future Rogue would be killed by Current Natsu but not by GMG Natsu which is basically my point. It is not fair to compare a character to a weaker version of another character unless shown through feats. Otherwise, the battle is most likely one-sided.

I believe I stated this in another thread but this logic only applies to characters similar/comparable in power or when one believes a weaker character has surpassed a stronger one. I don't deny that someone like Romeo is weaker than Makarov....

I don't know where the idea that Gildarts is closer to his magic potential than most of the characters came about. I would need a specific statement from the manga or Hiro Mashima to confirm it. I mean if you base it on how strong they were, wouldn't that apply to Acnologia, Zeref, Spriggan 12, 3 Gods of Ishgar, Jura, Makarov, Jose Porla, Hades, and many more? Even by that logic, Natsu should be nearing his maximum potential at this point. We have no reason to believe so unless we inaccurately perceiving it to be that way. Personally, I see it as those who have not attained such power yet are playing catch-up, not the other way around.

 

[Brandish μ]

Exactly. But the real question here is if they trained or not and by how much did their power increase. Until we've seen feats, the answer is not determined. Gildarts could be Bluenote Fodder Level or August Level at this point... The reason why we haven't seen anybody close to the growth in power from Laxus or Natsu is because not all of them are revealed yet. Until then, this situation can be defined by the statement "Innocent, until Proven Guilty" or "Inconclusive, until Feats Shown" in this case.

Sure, you can say that Future Rogue would be killed by Current Natsu but not by GMG Natsu which is basically my point. It is not fair to compare a character to a weaker version of another character unless shown through feats. Otherwise, the battle is most likely one-sided.

I believe I stated this in another thread but this logic only applies to characters similar/comparable in power or when one believes a weaker character has surpassed a stronger one. I don't deny that someone like Romeo is weaker than Makarov....

I don't know where the idea that Gildarts is closer to his magic potential than most of the characters came about. I would need a specific statement from the manga or Hiro Mashima to confirm it. I mean if you base it on how strong they were, wouldn't that apply to Acnologia, Zeref, Spriggan 12, 3 Gods of Ishgar, Jura, Makarov, Jose Porla, Hades, and many more? Even by that logic, Natsu should be nearing his maximum potential at this point. We have no reason to believe so unless we inaccurately perceiving it to be that way. Personally, I see it as those who have not attained such power yet are playing catch-up, not the other way around.

No one is saying they know and we don't need to in order to speculate. Discussions are not just post-hoc. If that were the case no-one would talk about anyone until feats would happen in the manga, and that would be boring. However we've followed the manga for some 470-odd chapters so there is basis/information/hype for which to formulate predictions, and of course add in your own interpretations/views/bias etc.

Mashima gave hype for training, and so far the improvements based on his hype have been accurate. Natsu to me was always going to come back with the most improvement. After that it would be a tie between Laxus and Gray. That's how it felt at the end of Tartarus. Then we find out the levels of training... and Natsu's sounds like it was the most. 2nd Laxus. And then everyone else (Gray trained with Juvia for 6 months then went to Avatar for example). If Mashima sticks to this we should see everyone in FT improve substantially, just not as much as Natsu. If Mashima wants to give Gajeel, Gray etc the same level of improvement this would go against the training hype, which at the end of the day is hype (can be easily overridden in FT).

The F.Rogue comparison is not to prove that the time elapsing = you can't compare. It's to prove that timeskips themselves have context. F.Rogue is actually from a time beyond Alvarez. The difference is what was done in the last year in the current timeline vs what was done in F.Rogues 7 years. Natsu's growth in the last one year is reflective of his goals to train. If he doesn't go on this training adventure he would be nowhere near as strong.

Gildarts was a whole heap stronger than the likes of Natsu pre-skip so it's only logical he's closer to his potential than Natsu. And yes the same applies for all those characters including current Natsu. Your last statement I do disagree with. By that you're implying anyone could be August level, which is something I don't buy. He is by Warrod's statements the greatest wizard of all time. I don't believe Gildarts is as nearly as talented as Ajeel, someone inferior to August. But that's just my opinion and I won't be surprised if Gildarts comes back at Ajeel level. I'd lol if he was August level though.

 

[Firepower]

Brandish the moderator made a good point that the attack that should have beaten Erza was the power sapped from the ft members, that power both Azuma and Erza used against one another.

Azuma vs Erza was a fight to demonstrate Erza's will to protect everyone. Azuma said that they are the same because they both seek out strong opponents to be at their current strength. Erza disagreed saying her drive that got her at that level of strength is from protecting those important to her. So when the tree fell and every ft member fell and was losing strength, completely defenseless, except Erza, Azuma said "Let's test that will you have to protect them. If you don't defeat me they will all die because their powers were being drained."

It was a fight where Azuma had the location advantage due to the tree parts and also used the island's power, including the ft members powers that was being drained. He had the upper hand. Erza knew she had to keep on fighting for the sake of everyone. It was due to the dire situation that any member, who was in that situation would have to dig deep to somehow fight on. At the end the powers of her guildmates and earth sided with her. The strongest attack that Azuma had, using his own magic power was probably tower burst, which Erza endured but hurt. Both took the same attack, but Erza got up from it.

In the end of that fight, I thought less of Erza, as did everyone else, but that one fight with handicaps should not determine her true potential. Even Gray lost to Bikslow, I think it was in an alley which gave Bikslow a surroundings advantage. Point is Erza should be considered much more beatable because of that fight, but not be discredited too much about it.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

No one is saying they know and we don't need to in order to speculate. Discussions are not just post-hoc. If that were the case no-one would talk about anyone until feats would happen in the manga, and that would be boring. However we've followed the manga for some 470-odd chapters so there is basis/information/hype for which to formulate predictions, and of course add in your own interpretations/views/bias etc.

I was just trying to understand why people would underestimate Gildarts. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or that I'm right for that matter. Labeling a statement as unreasonable is just a way of rejecting the idea because it seems very illogical to me. Also, I got the implication that users on this forum are being blamed for overrating Gildarts when really we don't. In fact, it is the other way around. I don't mind discussions but not when there is an accusation involved.

Mashima gave hype for training, and so far the improvements based on his hype have been accurate. Natsu to me was always going to come back with the most improvement. After that it would be a tie between Laxus and Gray. That's how it felt at the end of Tartarus. Then we find out the levels of training... and Natsu's sounds like it was the most. 2nd Laxus. And then everyone else (Gray trained with Juvia for 6 months then went to Avatar for example). If Mashima sticks to this we should see everyone in FT improve substantially, just not as much as Natsu. If Mashima wants to give Gajeel, Gray etc the same level of improvement this would go against the training hype, which at the end of the day is hype (can be easily overridden in FT).

Actually, the amount of power each character gained during the timeskip is very subjective. Natsu becoming a lot stronger tells us nothing about Gildarts, especially since he hasn't even appeared. The only characters we can compare Natsu to so far is characters we've seen or himself. Anything else is just guessing. What if Jellal trained more than Natsu? Do we know? Maybe he upgraded Sema to the point it surpasses any of Natsu's attacks. I know this won't happen but you get where I'm going.

The F.Rogue comparison is not to prove that the time elapsing = you can't compare. It's to prove that timeskips themselves have context. F.Rogue is actually from a time beyond Alvarez. The difference is what was done in the last year in the current timeline vs what was done in F.Rogues 7 years. Natsu's growth in the last one year is reflective of his goals to train. If he doesn't go on this training adventure he would be nowhere near as strong.

No, actually if you were to look deeper into the context, it would fully support what I'm trying to explain. I basically have the same idea as yours but apparently I'm not making myself clear enough.

GMG Natsu > GMG Rogue Cheney
This was given since Rogue was first introduced into the series.
GMG Natsu < Future Rogue
Since Natsu is more than 2x or 3x stronger than Rogue, we would think Rogue would still be weaker than Natsu even if he were to have a few years over Natsu. Not the case. Rogue trained a lot and was able to beat Natsu who is behind him by 7 years.
Current Natsu > Future Rogue
Since Future Rogue has 6 years worth of training over Natsu, we would think he surpasses Natsu still. Not the case. Natsu trained a lot harder and exceeded his strength.

It all depends on training. You said so yourself, except you're putting a whole lot of faith in your own opinion. Now, going back to Gildarts. How do we know if he did or did not train? We don't. Exactly my point.

Tenrou Gildarts > Tenrou Natsu
Given.
Tenrou Gildarts < Current Natsu
Given.
Current Gildarts ? Current Natsu
Scenario #1: Gildarts lacked training and instead spent time relaxing with Cana. Natsu surpasses him.
Scenario #2: Gildarts trained with Cana non-stop. Gildarts may be equal or possibly stronger than Natsu.

As you can see, there are a variety of possibilities. One cannot say Gildarts is overrated and that Natsu is definitely above everyone else.

Gildarts was a whole heap stronger than the likes of Natsu pre-skip so it's only logical he's closer to his potential than Natsu. And yes the same applies for all those characters including current Natsu. Your last statement I do disagree with. By that you're implying anyone could be August level, which is something I don't buy. He is by Warrod's statements the greatest wizard of all time. I don't believe Gildarts is as nearly as talented as Ajeel, someone inferior to August. But that's just my opinion and I won't be surprised if Gildarts comes back at Ajeel level. I'd lol if he was August level though.

Who said this was true? There is such thing as a snowball effect where one becomes strong and continues to grow stronger exponentially until nobody can hold them back. This has happened in so many animes and mangas. Since when was there a rule that states the strongest character is reaching their limits? I can tell you right now from Natsu's current feat that if he is nearing his limit, Acnologia should be able to kill him off very soon.

Yes, anyone with a strong character development to begin with could be at August's level as long as they put in a lot of effort and dedication. Similar to how one can become successful by putting in a lot of work. Of course, a character with a weak development to start out with like Freed, Bickslow, Levy, Macao, Wakaba, Romeo, and Lisanna will never reach that stage. Why? Because they are way too far behind to catch up.

 

[Firepower]

I don't consider Laxus red lightning an asspull. He just decided to use more power driven by heart. They don't have to announce their new abilities before war like Natsu and Gray did to have gained new magic and strength without others screaming unfair, or bs. Laxus did not just jump in using fairy law. He went out seeking revenge to pound Wahl.

And until Natsu or Gray show the results of their training, Laxus has always and still is stronger. Igneel's leftover power does not count. Also, everyone talks about the other ds getting leftover power also. But wouldn't they have gotten it already? Pretty sure Gajeel isn't behind Natsu. More like next to him. Natsu beat Bakel while Gajeel beat Kareem, both were partners serving as generals or lieutenants under Ajeel. Natsu and Gajeel weren't going all out to save energy for the bosses, but even then they said that they were pretty tough, a bit out of breath and dirty. Claiming to have used 10% of their maximum strength. That alone should say something about Ajeel. Ajeel will fight again or be roadkill for Acnologia. When he does fight, we'll get a better idea of what he can do if he gets serious. All the spriggan are beatable and will be beaten. Who's beaten first doesn't determine spriggan ranking.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 19, 2016 ---

I was just trying to understand why people would underestimate Gildarts. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or that I'm right for that matter. Labeling a statement as unreasonable is just a way of rejecting the idea because it seems very illogical to me. Also, I got the implication that users on this forum are being blamed for overrating Gildarts when really we don't. In fact, it is the other way around. I don't mind discussions but not when there is an accusation involved.



Actually, the amount of power each character gained during the timeskip is very subjective. Natsu becoming a lot stronger tells us nothing about Gildarts, especially since he hasn't even appeared. The only characters we can compare Natsu to so far is characters we've seen or himself. Anything else is just guessing. What if Jellal trained more than Natsu? Do we know? Maybe he upgraded Sema to the point it surpasses any of Natsu's attacks. I know this won't happen but you get where I'm going.



No, actually if you were to look deeper into the context, it would fully support what I'm trying to explain. I basically have the same idea as yours but apparently I'm not making myself clear enough.

GMG Natsu > GMG Rogue Cheney
This was given since Rogue was first introduced into the series.
GMG Natsu < Future Rogue
Since Natsu is more than 2x or 3x stronger than Rogue, we would think Rogue would still be weaker than Natsu even if he were to have a few years over Natsu. Not the case. Rogue trained a lot and was able to beat Natsu who is behind him by 7 years.
Current Natsu > Future Rogue
Since Future Rogue has 6 years worth of training over Natsu, we would think he surpasses Natsu still. Not the case. Natsu trained a lot harder and exceeded his strength.

It all depends on training. You said so yourself, except you're putting a whole lot of faith in your own opinion. Now, going back to Gildarts. How do we know if he did or did not train? We don't. Exactly my point.

Tenrou Gildarts > Tenrou Natsu
Given.
Tenrou Gildarts > Current Natsu
Given.
Current Gildarts ? Current Natsu
Scenario #1: Gildarts lacked training and instead spent time relaxing with Cana. Natsu surpasses him.
Scenario #2: Gildarts trained with Cana non-stop. Gildarts may be equal or possibly stronger than Natsu.

As you can see, there are a variety of possibilities. One cannot say Gildarts is overrated and that Natsu is definitely above everyone else.



Who said this was true? There is such thing as a snowball effect where one becomes strong and continues to grow stronger exponentially until nobody can hold them back. This has happened in so many animes and mangas. Since when was there a rule that states the strongest character is reach their limits? I can tell you right now from Natsu's current feat that if he is nearing his limit, Acnologia should be able to kill him off very soon.

Yes, anyone with a strong character development to begin with could be at August's level as long as they put in a lot of effort and dedication. Similar to how one can become successful by putting in a lot of work. Of course, a character with a weak development to start out with like Freed, Bickslow, Levy, Macao, Wakaba, Romeo, and Lisanna will never reach that stage. Why? Because they are way far behind to catch up.

You make a very good point about Gildarts. Even in the Tenrou arc he punched Bluenote in the sky the same way Natsu did Bakel currently. The way he powered up and scared Natsu, we didn't see that much force against Bluenote. His full power is yet to be seen, and improvements too. Both him and Serena were victims of Acnologia. We haven't seen Gildarts use his crash magic to any extent yet.

 

[Brandish μ]

I was just trying to understand why people would underestimate Gildarts. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or that I'm right for that matter. Labeling a statement as unreasonable is just a way of rejecting the idea because it seems very illogical to me. Also, I got the implication that users on this forum are being blamed for overrating Gildarts when really we don't. In fact, it is the other way around. I don't mind discussions but not when there is an accusation involved.

It's not a blame game if someone is saying a character is overrated, they are just saying that a character is viewed by the majority as stronger/better than that person actually thinks. If this person is trolling or being unreasonable then through discussion you should be able to ween out the credibility of the assertion that Gildarts is overrated. I think when people are talking about Gildarts they are referring to pre-skip Gildarts when he was one of the top wizards in the manga. It is clear now there is a level beyond his pre-skip status, what is unknown is where Gildarts lies currently.

Actually, the amount of power each character gained during the timeskip is very subjective. Natsu becoming a lot stronger tells us nothing about Gildarts, especially since he hasn't even appeared. The only characters we can compare Natsu to so far is characters we've seen or himself. Anything else is just guessing. What if Jellal trained more than Natsu? Do we know? Maybe he upgraded Sema to the point it surpasses any of Natsu's attacks. I know this won't happen but you get where I'm going.

That's what I'm saying. The timeskip has relevance for everyone in a different way. That's why I mentioned the hype Mashima gave, it was an indication for things to come. So far the amount of training has been an accurate indicator for people to make a guess/prediction, but it's obviously not going to have the precision where you can say 'X is definitely greater than Y'. Gildarts is included with Cana's hype, so we can hope for some improvement from him. But Mashima went out of his way for Natsu and Laxus with their training hype. Others could have improved as much - but they'll need to have trained the house down. Jellal probs couldn't have trained more than Natsu because Natsu himself trained for basically the whole time. There is the possibility however that Mashima could trash this whole training concept entirely if he wants by allowing those who trained less to gain more.

No, actually if you were to look deeper into the context, it would fully support what I'm trying to explain. I basically have the same idea as yours but apparently I'm not making myself clear enough.

GMG Natsu > GMG Rogue Cheney
This was given since Rogue was first introduced into the series.
GMG Natsu < Future Rogue
Since Natsu is more than 2x or 3x stronger than Rogue, we would think Rogue would still be weaker than Natsu even if he were to have a few years over Natsu. Not the case. Rogue trained a lot and was able to beat Natsu who is behind him by 7 years.
Current Natsu > Future Rogue
Since Future Rogue has 6 years worth of training over Natsu, we would think he surpasses Natsu still. Not the case. Natsu trained a lot harder and exceeded his strength.

Yes that is what I am saying as well. The amount of time is irrelevant if someone doesn't use it. This will apply to the 1 year that just past in the current timeline - that is people will all improve in different way depending on training and potential/talent.

It all depends on training. You said so yourself, except you're putting a whole lot of faith in your own opinion. Now, going back to Gildarts. How do we know if he did or did not train? We don't. Exactly my point.

Tenrou Gildarts > Tenrou Natsu
Given.
Tenrou Gildarts < Current Natsu
Given.
Current Gildarts ? Current Natsu
Scenario #1: Gildarts lacked training and instead spent time relaxing with Cana. Natsu surpasses him.
Scenario #2: Gildarts trained with Cana non-stop. Gildarts may be equal or possibly stronger than Natsu.

As you can see, there are a variety of possibilities. One cannot say Gildarts is overrated and that Natsu is definitely above everyone else.

Again I think the overrated part is when former-skip Gildarts is still being rated as a top tier. You take a conservative position with Gildarts saying we don't know how strong he is which is fine. I'm stating an opinion using manga hype and my own reasoning, which I've outlined. You've also stated as Gildarts being underestimated, which is basically the same as someone calling him overrated.

Who said this was true? There is such thing as a snowball effect where one becomes strong and continues to grow stronger exponentially until nobody can hold them back. This has happened in so many animes and mangas. Since when was there a rule that states the strongest character is reaching their limits? I can tell you right now from Natsu's current feat that if he is nearing his limit, Acnologia should be able to kill him off very soon.

Yes, anyone with a strong character development to begin with could be at August's level as long as they put in a lot of effort and dedication. Similar to how one can become successful by putting in a lot of work. Of course, a character with a weak development to start out with like Freed, Bickslow, Levy, Macao, Wakaba, Romeo, and Lisanna will never reach that stage. Why? Because they are way too far behind to catch up.

We differ in opinions obviously. I don't believe in limitlessness, which you seem to. I didn't state there was a rule, I stated my opinion once again. There is a difference in becoming strong and becoming the strongest.

Why couldn't Romeo get to August level under your reasoning? He's young, plenty of time...

 

[iDooom]

Brandish the moderator made a good point that the attack that should have beaten Erza was the power sapped from the ft members, that power both Azuma and Erza used against one another.

Azuma vs Erza was a fight to demonstrate Erza's will to protect everyone. Azuma said that they are the same because they both seek out strong opponents to be at their current strength. Erza disagreed saying her drive that got her at that level of strength is from protecting those important to her. So when the tree fell and every ft member fell and was losing strength, completely defenseless, except Erza, Azuma said "Let's test that will you have to protect them. If you don't defeat me they will all die because their powers were being drained."

It was a fight where Azuma had the location advantage due to the tree parts and also used the island's power, including the ft members powers that was being drained. He had the upper hand. Erza knew she had to keep on fighting for the sake of everyone. It was due to the dire situation that any member, who was in that situation would have to dig deep to somehow fight on. At the end the powers of her guildmates and earth sided with her. The strongest attack that Azuma had, using his own magic power was probably tower burst, which Erza endured but hurt. Both took the same attack, but Erza got up from it.

In the end of that fight, I thought less of Erza, as did everyone else, but that one fight with handicaps should not determine her true potential. Even Gray lost to Bikslow, I think it was in an alley which gave Bikslow a surroundings advantage. Point is Erza should be considered much more beatable because of that fight, but not be discredited too much about it.

I think the main problems with Erza vs Azuma was that the first part of the fight (before the Tenrou tree fell) wasn't shown on panel and the second Terra Clamare wasn't explained adequately. It's like how the first part of GOI vs Serena wasn't shown and we kind of have to guess what happened. From the exchanges shown, I assume that Erza and Azuma were fairly evenly matched before TC, especially since Erza tanked tower burst (maybe more than one or another strong attack that could break AF). This was despite Azuma being incredibly op (easily the strongest of the 7kin) and having a terrain advantage.

Some may also say that Erza surviving the first TC was BS; I disagree. Given that Erza had previously endured 200 thunder lacrima hits, Jupiter, and tanked tower burst without much damage, Terra Clamare would have to be obscenely powerful to one-shot Erza. As it was, it did significant damage and knocked out Erza for a few seconds. Some might point to Jellal as PoF, but that was probably the only time the author could show what happened to Jellal before the 7 year timeskip. It didn't mitigate the damage from TC in any way.

The second Terra Clamare would have defeated Erza, so that was a rare case of actual PoF in the series. However, a lot of people seem to look at this, scream PoF!!! and throw out the whole fight as BS. It should be worth noting that as with Laxus's red lightning, a good explanation would have made it acceptable. Think of how bad Natsu eating Zancrow's flames would have been if Makarov had not been there to explain it. The reason for this is that we do not have definite rules about magic in FT. If we think about magic having a will of its own (like say Zeref's curse), or even taking on the attributes of its wielder, then Terra Clamare choosing to protect Erza seems a lot more reasonable.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

It's not a blame game if someone is saying a character is overrated, they are just saying that a character is viewed by the majority as stronger/better than that person actually thinks. If this person is trolling or being unreasonable then through discussion you should be able to ween out the credibility of the assertion that Gildarts is overrated. I think when people are talking about Gildarts they are referring to pre-skip Gildarts when he was one of the top wizards in the manga. It is clear now there is a level beyond his pre-skip status, what is unknown is where Gildarts lies currently.

There are plenty of ways that it can be worded differently to reflect one's opinion such as saying that Gildarts is one of the most overrated characters of the series. Although I disagree with that statement, I would respect that. Essentially, a character is labeled as overrated when the viewers hype them more than what their actual power is portrayed to be. Since Gildarts was the strongest Fairy Tail member at one point, saying he could still possibly hold that title is not overrated.

Again I think the overrated part is when former-skip Gildarts is still being rated as a top tier. You take a conservative position with Gildarts saying we don't know how strong he is which is fine. I'm stating an opinion using manga hype and my own reasoning, which I've outlined. You've also stated as Gildarts being underestimated, which is basically the same as someone calling him overrated.

I agree that would be unreasonable but I don't see anybody going as far as to say that.

We differ in opinions obviously. I don't believe in limitlessness, which you seem to. I didn't state there was a rule, I stated my opinion once again. There is a difference in becoming strong and becoming the strongest.

Why couldn't Romeo get to August level under your reasoning? He's young, plenty of time...

Well since August is definitely not the strongest, I can see a select few being able to surpass him. Maybe or maybe not in this timeline, but surely the next if there were to be one. Romeo couldn't get to August Level because the gap was already bridged too far apart to begin with. Romeo is indeed young and would be able to surpass August if August stopped training for 100 years while Romeo trains day and night for that long. It isn't impossible is what I'm trying to say.

 

[Brandish μ]

There are plenty of ways that it can be worded differently to reflect one's opinion such as saying that Gildarts is one of the most overrated characters of the series. Although I disagree with that statement, I would respect that. Essentially, a character is labeled as overrated when the viewers hype them more than what their actual power is portrayed to be. Since Gildarts was the strongest Fairy Tail member at one point, saying he could still possibly hold that title is not overrated.

Well Gildarts is actual power is portrayed as someone stronger than Bluenote and maybe as strong as GoI. But pre-skip standings have been skewed by Mashima. So when someone disagrees with Gildarts still being the no.1 in the guild there is at least a manga basis for that. I do see your point that Gildarts maybe deserves the benefit of the doubt. Imo he is overrated if the consensus is Gildarts' pre-skip showings are enough to give him a win against Wahl, Ajeel, God Serena, Laxus, or Natsu... in fact I think Erza has a good chance to win against pre-skip Gildarts. (Just to let you know I am not a Gildarts hater, I am a fan of his, probs like most who reads FT).

My opinion is that if Mashima brings Gildarts back in this arc he will have improved to Spriggan level, but likely not as strong as Natsu or Laxus.

Well since August is definitely not the strongest, I can see a select few being able to surpass him. Maybe or maybe not in this timeline, but surely the next if there were to be one. Romeo couldn't get to August Level because the gap was already bridged too far apart to begin with. Romeo is indeed young and would be able to surpass August if August stopped training for 100 years while Romeo trains day and night for that long. It isn't impossible is what I'm trying to say.

August is of all mortals hyped to be the greatest wizard of all time (so that excludes Zeref and Acnologia). This is just hype. Mashima could make Jellal stronger than him if he wants. But if God Serena/Wahl are below August, then he is miles better than someone like Hyberion, Jura or pre-skip Gildarts. To beat August you would not only have to use powerful magic (which is a talent and knowledge thing), you would also have to possess magical and physical power of the most very top tier. This is assuming the hype is right with August. To me he probably won't be soloed, unless it's Natsu using dragon force. That said I don't know the power level of Jellal, someone who I hype personally to be above the Spriggans at Ajeel's level (like Laxus for example).