Thing is no one has provided a logical argument for why Serena wins beyond him being able to eat Natsus element. Which is a valid argument, but we have already seen that there are limits, its simply how high those limits are. I don't see Serena eating flames at the FDKM level (strong enough to evaporate huge bodies of water), I don't mind if others think otherwise.
Note: Him defeating Jura and the other saints ain't a valid argument, because nothing suggests Natsu cant do the same with a roar that can cover all of them and that is powerful enough to one-shot characters of Juras/Bluenotes durability (The other saints are all equal in the durability department, canon).
Please enlighten me........ why can't God Serena eat flames on FDKM level?......... It's fire..... he has fire magic, therefore he can eat it and power up his own magic and unleash different spells like Neptune Dragon and Gale Dragon that are basically counters to Natsu's magic........... you try and rate Serena despite the fact that we haven't even seen him try........ I'm pretty damn sure that an all-out Serena with basic immunity to fire damage will consume the fire and hit him with attacks from Gale Dragon and Neptune Dragon and wreck him. Serena's attacks were able to wreck a person with Jura's durability which is on Laxus' level
Natsu didn't beat Laxus alone...... you forget that he fought Mystogan, Erza, wrecked Natsu and Gajeel after his initial skirmish and then proceeded to drain his own magic with Fairy Law before wrecking Natsu again, nearly killing him, until he was saved by Gajeel. In a 1v1 fight at that stage, it would have been a stomp for Laxus.
So far in the current time, Laxus has shown the best feats overall, so I still rate him ahead of Natsu. I haven't seen much from Cobra so I would give that one to Natsu as well.
Honestly I think this is a toss up. I think people are jumping the gun on assuming that DF Natsu>FDKM Natsu. For all we know FDKM replaces DF, since we have not seen him use DF there is no reason to use that in the discussion imo.
I left DF out for the same reason, we haven't seen it for current Natsu.
I do doubt DF has been replaced, it's been a staple power-up in the manga and both Wendy and Gajeel have used it this arc. LFD could be replaced by FDKM, since both modes were spawned by ingesting MP which created a spell-set specifically to wield a different magic type than Natsu's fire dragon slayer magic. That's my opinion anyway.
You still aren't addressing why he lost to Aria,another Wind Mage..if Natsu is all THAT powerful against Wind Magic...
Huh?What do you mean sustain a mode for resistance?Dragon Slayers are naturally resistant against their elements...I don't know where you are getting all these things with resistance and what not..but sure,let's try it out with another Element..
Jura is an Earth Wizard...he used an Earth Spell on God Serena and the spell did moot to him...because God Serena has Earth Dragon Slaying Magic already..
See my drift?Fire is useless on Serena...and more so if its coming from an inferior Dragon Slayer than him...he has artificial DS and we've already established Second Generation Dragon Slayers are stronger than First Generation
What does Aria have to do with it? Unlike the Erigor fight, Natsu outright didn't try and dispell Aria's wind because it wasn't as much of a problem as it was in the Erigor fight, plus Aria was draining his magic so its not really that good a comparison there on your part. My point with the wind magic was that Natsu, when he tries to, can dispel wind magic as we saw in the Erigor fight, and thats the key point.
What I mean by sustain a mode is use one lacrima only so he gains the full benifits of that element. Serena has only shown he can use the different lacrima for different attacks, not gain resistances etc. from them so without showing that its speculation and shouldn't be counted as per Rule 5 of the Tournament.
Jura's spell did moot to God Serena? Jura's rockiron fists were juggling Serena around and as you can see from the chapter, he let out an "Ugh!" as they continually hit him, so its clear they didn't do moot to him.
The Dragon Slayer Generation Debate is a bit off-topic, but the first generation is clearly the superior generation with only them and the third generation having access to Dragon Force, which is inherited/learnt from a Dragon, which Natsu stated in Crunchyroll's Chapter 411 translation when he entered it against Mard Geer. Therefore without the second generation obtaining that 'final phase' of Dragon Slaying magic, they are definitely not superior. Look at how they currently compare, Natsu is far above Cobra and at least can give Laxus a run for his money, and would best him using FDKM.
Left left DF out for the same reason, we haven't seen it for current Natsu.
I do doubt DF has been replaced, it's been a staple power-up in the manga and both Wendy and Gajeel have used it this arc. LFD could be replaced by FDKM, since both modes were spawned by ingesting MP which created a spell-set specifically to wield a different magic type than Natsu's fire dragon slayer magic. That's my opinion anway.
Yeah that's fair, I also doubt it would be shelved, but when you think about the name FDKM it sounds like Natsu has reached the peak of his DS capabilities at the moment when in said mode. I could be wrong, but it seems silly to me Natsu would use anything less than his best against Zeref. Considering he used FDKM and not DF, I think it's fair to wonder if DF is weaker now.
Yeah that's fair, I also doubt it would be shelved, but when you think about the name FDKM it sounds like Natsu has reached the peak of his DS capabilities at the moment when in said mode. I could be wrong, but it seems silly to me Natsu would use anything less than his best against Zeref. Considering he used FDKM and not DF, I think it's fair to wonder if DF is weaker now.
I do agree that FDKM is like Natsu reaching an endpoint for Fire DS magic. He's essentially trying to emulate the flames Igneel left in his body imo. My theory for Natsu using that mode against Zeref was so that he could use Igneel's magic power asap. The mode is actually not as relevant as Igneel's MP. I still don't know why he didn't use Dragon Force instead, and this is where I see why people believe FDK > DF.
But the main difference with Dragon Force is that it's a physiological change to Natsu's body. He becomes part dragon, so his physical body and his power output seem to dramatically improve. So he should be able to use all his spells better in DF. I think he should be able to use FDK spells in Dragon Force.
Yeah that's fair, I also doubt it would be shelved, but when you think about the name FDKM it sounds like Natsu has reached the peak of his DS capabilities at the moment when in said mode. I could be wrong, but it seems silly to me Natsu would use anything less than his best against Zeref. Considering he used FDKM and not DF, I think it's fair to wonder if DF is weaker now.
What I mean by sustain a mode is use one lacrima only so he gains the full benifits of that element. Serena has only shown he can use the different lacrima for different attacks, not gain resistances etc. from them so without showing that its speculation and shouldn't be counted as per Rule 5 of the Tournament.
Okay, then I say Purgatory Flames are completely different flames than anything Natsu's ever encountered. So what if he took in God Slayer Flames? They're completely different. Natsu has never been shown to eat Purgatory Flames, so therefore he can't "as per Rule 5 of the Tournament." Also Natsu's flames have never been shown to evaporate Neptune-Water Dragon Slayer magic, so by regular convention, water puts out fires "as per Rule 5 of the Tournament."
I do agree that FDKM is like Natsu reaching an endpoint for Fire DS magic. He's essentially trying to emulate the flames Igneel left in his body imo. My theory for Natsu using that mode against Zeref was so that he could use Igneel's magic power asap. The mode is actually not as relevant as Igneel's MP. I still don't know why he didn't use Dragon Force instead, and this is where I see why people believe FDK > DF.
But the main difference with Dragon Force is that it's a physiological change to Natsu's body. He becomes part dragon, so his physical body and his power output seem to dramatically improve. So he should be able to use all his spells better in DF. I think he should be able to use FDK spells in Dragon Force.
Definitely possible, hard to say at this point I suppose. I imagine we will get the answer sooner or later though, not really important to the discussion though I guess haha.
Of course, I don't know, but I'm under the impression that FDKM + Igneel's Flames > Dragon Force > FDKM > Base Natsu
Okay, then I say Purgatory Flames are completely different flames than anything Natsu's ever encountered. So what if he took in God Slayer Flames? They're completely different. Natsu has never been shown to eat Purgatory Flames, so therefore he can't "as per Rule 5 of the Tournament." Also Natsu's flames have never been shown to evaporate Neptune-Water Dragon Slayer magic, so by regular convention, water puts out fires "as per Rule 5 of the Tournament."
Okay, then I say Purgatory Flames are completely different flames than anything Natsu's ever encountered. So what if he took in God Slayer Flames? They're completely different. Natsu has never been shown to eat Purgatory Flames, so therefore he can't "as per Rule 5 of the Tournament." Also Natsu's flames have never been shown to evaporate Neptune-Water Dragon Slayer magic, so by regular convention, water puts out fires "as per Rule 5 of the Tournament."
Well if you say that as your argument then I'd refute that by pointing out that they're still dragon flames, something that Natsu has previously eaten, thus Natsu should still be able to eat it. And even if he couldn't eat it, he'd still have a resistance to the Purgatory Dragon attacks as they're fire based.
As for the Sea King Dragon magic, its still essentially water which Natsu has evaporated in a much larger quantity, so there is every possibility of him being able to evaporate a water-based spell. Relying on Rule 5 won't help your arguments when you put them like that.
Laxus is weaker than Natsu when a simple swipe of his hand can destroy a Spriggan 12 member meanwhile Natsu has to use his strongest Mode to finish off someone of the same calibre...
Okay then..
Laxus is weaker than Natsu when a simple swipe of his hand can destroy a Spriggan 12 member meanwhile Natsu has to use his strongest Mode to finish off someone of the same calibre...
Okay then..
I would honestly put Natus and Laxus relitively close. I mean there is no guarantee that in the scene you are referring to that Laxus could have taken out Ajeel that easily. Like I said this is a toss up to me, so I suppose it's not really important what my opinion is on Laxus vs Natsu haha.
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Laxus is weaker than Natsu when a simple swipe of his hand can destroy a Spriggan 12 member meanwhile Natsu has to use his strongest Mode to finish off someone of the same calibre...
Okay then..
I also do not agree that Laxus is weaker than Natsu. Natsu's grown plenty strong for a protagonist but come on, this is Laxus we are talking about, the only person hyped of destroying a spriggan with a one-shot along with jellal. Though Natsu will be much higher than them at the end but now,,, nah man.
Up to now no one convinced me why Natsu would win this. Is it so hard to understand that he just won't have a chance?
Isn't this match already obvious because God Serena is the strongest mage of Ishgar and Natsu isn't?
Saying Natsu's body heat can evaporate Neptune Dragon's Spell is the most insane thing I've ever heard. Is this the best thing you all can come up with?
Jura couldn't counter Cave Dragon's Spell so how in the hell can Natsu?
Since when is Erigor as strong as God Serena? You can't be serious.
Not to mention that God Serena has four other spells which are as powerful as the other four. Since when are predictions not allowed while Mirajane is out of the tournament because everybody thought that Macro had limitations? This tournament must have equal rules for every patricipant, or not?
Not to forget, God Serena will just eat every spell that Natsu will use against him.
Now please show me good and fair evidence why Natsu would win this.
Up to now no one convinced me why Natsu would win this. Is it so hard to understand that he just won't have a chance?
Isn't this match already obvious because God Serena is the strongest mage of Ishgar and Natsu isn't?
Saying Natsu's body heat can evaporate Neptune Dragon's Spell is the most insane thing I've ever heard. Is this the best thing you all can come up with?
Jura couldn't counter Cave Dragon's Spell so how in the hell can Natsu?
Since when is Erigor as strong as God Serena? You can't be serious.
Not to mention that God Serena has four other spells which are as powerful as the other four. Since when are predictions not allowed while Mirajane is out of the tournament because everybody thought that Macro had limitations? This tournament must have equal rules for every patricipant, or not?
Not to forget, God Serena will just eat every spell that Natsu will use against him.
Now please show me good and fair evidence why Natsu would win this.
Well now, when you're coming out stating things like "Serena is the strongest mage of Isghar and Natsu isn't", it isn't really surprising that no one has swayed you yet. Just because someone has that title doesn't mean its absolute and they're guaranteed to win every fight, its a silly way to look at it as there are many factors that come into battles.
How is Natsu's heat from FDKM evaporating a water-based spell insane? FDKM Natsu lets off extremely intense heat, enough to evaporate the entire body of water from a large lake, and you think its 'insane' that he could evaporate a Water-based attack thats a lot smaller in comparison to the lake? I think thats flawed logic.
Comparing these, its clear that the lake is a lot larger, so Natsu evaporating a smaller body of water, i.e the Sea King Dragon attack, is definitely possible as at the end of the day its still water, and Natsu has shown he can evaporate water.
As @natsulucy pointed out in one of their recent posts, Natsu doesn't need to counter the Cavern Dragon attack, as he can rise up from the ground using flames coming from his legs, meaning he wouldn't be hit by it. The images natsulucy showed had Natsu moving up from the ground at a fast pace under Bluenote's heavy gravity, so without gravity control there Natsu can do that fairly quickly and avoid the attack all together.
No one ever said Erigor was as strong as God Serena. What was infact said was when a comparison was drawn between Erigor and Natsu back then, and then likened that fight to God Serena using the Hurricane Dragon magic against current Natsu, with current Natsu being able to dispel the Hurricane Dragon attacks like Natsu did against Erigor all the way back in the Eisenwald arc.
As per this tournament's 5th rule, we can only count what has actually been shown, so that makes the speculation on Serena's other four elements moot. That was what I said earlier, and I'll stick by that when it comes to it. Its an unprecedented situation in the tournament for any other character in the tournament when you have someone who didn't get to show off what they had in the arsenal before being killed. At the end of they day, without us seeing the other four elements, its just baseless speculation that can't really be counted.
Again, God Serena's situation as a DS isn't very clear as him having eight lacrima means he can't fully enter a 'mode' with one sole element to have the full advantages of it, i.e resistances, the ability to eat an element etc. Him being to eat Natsu's flames is just speculation because he mightn't be able to do so due to having the lacrima and inability to only use one to sustain a mode of that element. I've made this point clear in my previous posts here so to save me repeating myself further on this point, I'll direct you to my previous posts.
At the end of the day, Natsu using FDKM lets off intense heat which can easily evaporate water, rendering God Serena's water-based attacks useless, and the same can be said with his Hurricane Dragon attacks when drawing comparison to this fight and the Natsu vs Erigor fight back in the Eisenwald arc. Serena is left with Purgatory Dragon and Cavern Dragon attacks to rely on, and even if he can resist Natsu's flames when using purgatory dragon attacks, Natsu can still eat Serena's purgatory dragon attacks due to them being fire based, and as @natsulucy pointed out, Natsu can just shoot up in the air to avoid the cavern dragon attacks. That renders Serena's shown attacks completely useless against Natsu, and thus Natsu would be the victor in this fight.
Alright, at first I thought that God Serena would take this, but a few of these comments actually changed my mind.The only problem I see Natsu having is dealing with Serena's purgatory DS, but I think that Demolition Fist can get around that, seeing as the target suffers from a lot of blunt force trauma as well as from fire damage, so I might just give this to Natsu after all.
I don't think i'll vote on this 1v1. I had no idea at first, and then i pretty much agreed with the majority of points you guys gave, for either opponent. So i'm having a lot of trouble deciding who would have the upper hand. I'm gonna pass on this one
So much facts... At first I was like 'easily God Serena' but now a part of me is also going with Natsu. But even if the facts on Natsu are good, I still feel God Serena's got this. Wizard Saints pretty much looked like fodder against him (granted Warrod attacked him). Natsu will also take them down but not that easily. And God Serena has other elements and I think he can eat them also like Natsu did with Laxus's lightning. So.... still leaning with GS just because he looked better. But if a few more upcoming chapters are considered, then Natsu by far(supposedly). But now, GS
Well now, when you're coming out stating things like "Serena is the strongest mage of Isghar and Natsu isn't", it isn't really surprising that no one has swayed you yet. Just because someone has that title doesn't mean its absolute and they're guaranteed to win every fight, its a silly way to look at it as there are many factors that come into battles.
Wait what? That was not the only thing I stated. No matter, it actually does proof that God Serena is stronger than Natsu. There can only be one strongest mage from Ishgar, which is God Serena. Facts are facts.
How is Natsu's heat from FDKM evaporating a water-based spell insane? FDKM Natsu lets off extremely intense heat, enough to evaporate the entire body of water from a large lake, and you think its 'insane' that he could evaporate a Water-based attack thats a lot smaller in comparison to the lake? I think thats flawed logic.
Comparing these, its clear that the lake is a lot larger, so Natsu evaporating a smaller body of water, i.e the Sea King Dragon attack, is definitely possible as at the end of the day its still water, and Natsu has shown he can evaporate water.
As @natsulucy pointed out in one of their recent posts, Natsu doesn't need to counter the Cavern Dragon attack, as he can rise up from the ground using flames coming from his legs, meaning he wouldn't be hit by it. The images natsulucy showed had Natsu moving up from the ground at a fast pace under Bluenote's heavy gravity, so without gravity control there Natsu can do that fairly quickly and avoid the attack all together.
No one ever said Erigor was as strong as God Serena. What was infact said was when a comparison was drawn between Erigor and Natsu back then, and then likened that fight to God Serena using the Hurricane Dragon magic against current Natsu, with current Natsu being able to dispel the Hurricane Dragon attacks like Natsu did against Erigor all the way back in the Eisenwald arc.
As per this tournament's 5th rule, we can only count what has actually been shown, so that makes the speculation on Serena's other four elements moot. That was what I said earlier, and I'll stick by that when it comes to it. Its an unprecedented situation in the tournament for any other character in the tournament when you have someone who didn't get to show off what they had in the arsenal before being killed. At the end of they day, without us seeing the other four elements, its just baseless speculation that can't really be counted.
Again, God Serena's situation as a DS isn't very clear as him having eight lacrima means he can't fully enter a 'mode' with one sole element to have the full advantages of it, i.e resistances, the ability to eat an element etc. Him being to eat Natsu's flames is just speculation because he mightn't be able to do so due to having the lacrima and inability to only use one to sustain a mode of that element. I've made this point clear in my previous posts here so to save me repeating myself further on this point, I'll direct you to my previous posts.
At the end of the day, Natsu using FDKM lets off intense heat which can easily evaporate water, rendering God Serena's water-based attacks useless, and the same can be said with his Hurricane Dragon attacks when drawing comparison to this fight and the Natsu vs Erigor fight back in the Eisenwald arc. Serena is left with Purgatory Dragon and Cavern Dragon attacks to rely on, and even if he can resist Natsu's flames when using purgatory dragon attacks, Natsu can still eat Serena's purgatory dragon attacks due to them being fire based, and as @natsulucy pointed out, Natsu can just shoot up in the air to avoid the cavern dragon attacks. That renders Serena's shown attacks completely useless against Natsu, and thus Natsu would be the victor in this fight.
What Serena conjured is not even remotely close to Tsunami size. That volume of water is literally hundreds of times less then what is the bare minimum that constitutes a tsunami (see Ajeels Tsunami as reference). Also, depends on what the lake and the size of a tsunami. The biggest Tsunami is probably only going to have as much water as a small lake. Maybe thats being generous.
Please enlighten me........ why can't God Serena eat flames on FDKM level?......... It's fire..... he has fire magic, therefore he can eat it and power up his own magic and unleash different spells like Neptune Dragon and Gale Dragon that are basically counters to Natsu's magic........... you try and rate Serena despite the fact that we haven't even seen him try........ I'm pretty damn sure that an all-out Serena with basic immunity to fire damage will consume the fire and hit him with attacks from Gale Dragon and Neptune Dragon and wreck him. Serena's attacks were able to wreck a person with Jura's durability which is on Laxus' level.
A lot of people seem to forget this. Natsu was not able to eat Zancrows flames at first because they were a cut above what he could initially chew, only when he emptied his own MP tank was he capable of eating the flames. Serena might be able to eat normal flames, its highly doubtable that he could eat Natsus FDKM ones.
And I don't understand why you and a few others believe that Natsus power only increased marginally, Juras durability was Laxus level prior to the time skip. Now Jura is one-shottable for someone of Laxuses caliber, and I don't view Natsu that far behind Laxus.
Edit: the scan is in Spanish for whatever reason, but you could see what is happening so I don't believe a english scan is needed.
Wait what? That was not the only thing I stated. No matter, it actually does proof that God Serena is stronger than Natsu. There can only be one strongest mage from Ishgar, which is God Serena. Facts are facts.
What's a lake compared to a tsunami? There is a huge difference between these two.
It seems pretty obvious that Natsu's body heat can't evaporate a tsunami lol.
Then Natsu will concentrate on dodging Cave Dragon's Spell while God Serena will spam another attack. Just as easy as it is said.
And what is Erigor's Wind Magic compared to God Serena's Gale Dragon's Spell?
Then why did you and a lot others break this rule against Mirajane?
And saying that he can't eat Natsu's flames is also a speculation.
Natsu in FDKM is solid mountain level according to this.Tell me which Sea King spell is as strong.Before saying anything we should remember this is his aura not even his real attack.
As @SirSamuel016 said we shouldn't bring those lacrimas which are not revealed.
And Natsu can use LFD to bypass Serena's resistance to fire.
