Also I don't know if anyone else noticed, but in the fight between Natsu and Jellal, Natsu got only hit by one move, and that was an under powered Grand Chariot, which mind you pulverized him a good while, and it was underpowered. Jellal completely bested Natsu in CQC using Meteor, and we all know Natsu is a natural born CQC fighter. All of Jellal's other attacks, Altairis and Abyss Break were all interfered before they managed to hit Natsu, and I think this pretty much states what would have happened if any of those techniques would have hit Natsu..
Att: Natsu = or < Jellal (Demolition fist, Roar (super powerful) vs Abyss Break, Altairis, Grand Chariot, Abyss Break, and hell of a lot of other things (even more powerful)
Def: Natsu =? Jellal Again, Sam. You (and many people) keep confusing Defense with Endurance and Endurance with Stamina. They barely show anything for defense. Natsu can burn some things and Jellal can use meteor to dodge things.
Endurance: Natsu > Jellal Jellal has durability, but Natsu has probably some of the best durability arguably in the entire series.
Stamina: Natsu = Jellal Jellal's OS + large magic power literally alone is enough to make this claim against an MC who's had fights shoved down our throats.
Intelligence: Jellal > Natsu arguably Jellal has some of the best intelligence in fights in the entire series
Versatility: notably, Jellal has one of the best versatilities of all characters aside from August (who is still only hyped)
I feel this is something i should comment on because there are a few things i disagree with.
Attack Power going more in Jellals favor is one of those. You give Jellal all his big Spells but ignore the fact that Natsu has Claw and stuff like that for Chip Damage and quick execution as well. If you were to consider all types of attacks shown so far Natsu would take it because generally Jellal loses out on a lot of chances to get Natsu because his Attacks have considerable amounts of Cast time while Natsus longest Cast time would be his Roar and that still comes out faster than Jellals fastes Endgame Spell.
Def is legitimately not possible to decide. Natsu has no real defense and Jellal does not either. Avoidance is not Defence and Without Igneels Power i am certain that Natsu can not just burn Jellals Magic so = is appropriate here.
Endurance is correct. We had that topic just today between us as you may remember so here i can just agree. Natsu wins most of his fights by outlasting his opponent and this is what would happen here. His Endurance is so crazy strong that even when hit by Jellals Endgame Spells he wouldn't just fall over dead. You need FAR FAR MORE than just that to keep HIM down.
Stamina they are simply on par no questions asked.
BUT Intelligence and Versatility. You make it seem like there was room for debate but there really is not. Jellal is the single most intelligent fighter we have seen in Fairy Tail so far. He would leave even Levy and the likes in his dust with little to no effort. He strategizes crazy fast and assesses the current situation the moment it happens. He has the second biggest Arsenal of Spells and Magic Types only topped by supposedly August whom we have only seen cast Heat Magic. So he is the most versatile Mage we have confirmation of.
Other than this i don't feel like i can properly comment on what you said just yet.
How can Jellal drop Natsu when he has to be stationary while casting Sema? Even as its coming down, we see Jellal retaining his composure and concentration while casting it, which implies he has to remain focused on the spell for it to work. Therefore, its ludicrous to argue he could even hit Natsu when he's occupied with the casting of Sema.
Literally everyone from the FT Guild would be dead if it weren't for plot, so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with that statement. As for Jellal's CQC, yeah its decent but Natsu in DF has evidence of outspeeding him, so he could match him/best him there.
"He wasn't as strong as Gildarts" evidence? Second "He'd probably beat Bluenote with high difficulty" based off what what? I think tartarus base natsu was already able to beat the bluenote we saw post time skip at high difficulty, Jellal would have no problem. Physically, all bluenote has done is punch one of gildart's casual testing punches. That's not much for durability feats (unless I'm forgetting something) I'm not saying Bluenote has no durability, but there's no way you can argue that Tartarus Jellal and Bluenote are comparable with that kind of a gap. Hyped Gildarts > Tartarus Jellal > Tartarus Base Natsu > or = Bluenote.
Gildarts is stronger than Jellal pre-skip. His physicality is definitely on another level (Natsu's secret art does nothing). Empyrean > Sema as well imo. Gildarts disassembly is a better defence than Jellal's ability to evade is. I'd definitely back Gildarts over Jellal, around high diff.
Physically Bluenote took on Gildarts in CQC, where Gildarts was using crash. Bluenote was almost fine before Empyrean. This is a better feat in terms of physicals than what Jellal has done. Bluenote is basically a Jellal-tier pre-skip, not a Natsu one lol.
I'm not entirely sure people should say Jellal has horrible durability, keep in mind he was able to dish out everything that Cobra threw at him, and this was Tartaros Cobra, who was stronger than OS Cobra
Jellal doesn't have terrible durability, well throughout the series it's been solid. It wasn't a top tier pre-skip (like Mard/Hades/Makarov/Gildarts), and in the current arc he doesn't have the feats to place him in the Spriggan level for this either imo. I think both Jellal and Natsu will have similar durability, somewhere in between Erza and Laxus. Natsu will probably have Jellal covered in endurance.
In Tartarus Natsu would have been close to spent. He should be able to keep it going longer now with more MP, though I'm not going to speculate a great deal.
3 hits might be enough against Jellal. I'm fairly confident that DF Natsu will land 3 hits quickly regardless of Meteor from Jellal. 2 punches will do considerable damage and a Secret art would be enough to finish, assuming that a DF secret art should be stronger than Demolishing Strike. There's also no reason for me to think Natsu can't use FDK spells while in Dragon Force, but I'm not going to speculate on that for this tournament.
I feel this is something i should comment on because there are a few things i disagree with.
Attack Power going more in Jellals favor is one of those. You give Jellal all his big Spells but ignore the fact that Natsu has Claw and stuff like that for Chip Damage and quick execution as well. If you were to consider all types of attacks shown so far Natsu would take it because generally Jellal loses out on a lot of chances to get Natsu because his Attacks have considerable amounts of Cast time while Natsus longest Cast time would be his Roar and that still comes out faster than Jellals fastes Endgame Spell.
Def is legitimately not possible to decide. Natsu has no real defense and Jellal does not either. Avoidance is not Defence and Without Igneels Power i am certain that Natsu can not just burn Jellals Magic so = is appropriate here.
Endurance is correct. We had that topic just today between us as you may remember so here i can just agree. Natsu wins most of his fights by outlasting his opponent and this is what would happen here. His Endurance is so crazy strong that even when hit by Jellals Endgame Spells he wouldn't just fall over dead. You need FAR FAR MORE than just that to keep HIM down.
Stamina they are simply on par no questions asked.
BUT Intelligence and Versatility. You make it seem like there was room for debate but there really is not. Jellal is the single most intelligent fighter we have seen in Fairy Tail so far. He would leave even Levy and the likes in his dust with little to no effort. He strategizes crazy fast and assesses the current situation the moment it happens. He has the second biggest Arsenal of Spells and Magic Types only topped by supposedly August whom we have only seen cast Heat Magic. So he is the most versatile Mage we have confirmation of.
Other than this i don't feel like i can properly comment on what you said just yet.
> Att
Yeah sorry, I was writing kind of quickly. Taking into account smaller-scale attacks, I'd still say at best it evens out.
> Def
Yes, hence the =?, it's pretty inapplicable to these two.
"BUT Intelligence and Versatility. You make it seem like there was room for debate but there really is not. Jellal is the single most intelligent fighter we have seen in Fairy Tail so far. He would leave even Levy and the likes in his dust with little to no effort. He strategizes crazy fast and assesses the current situation the moment it happens. He has the second biggest Arsenal of Spells and Magic Types only topped by supposedly August whom we have only seen cast Heat Magic. So he is the most versatile Mage we have confirmation of."
Lol, I was being nice. Jellal stomps on intelligence and versatility for sure. Brains > Brawn
How can Jellal drop Natsu when he has to be stationary while casting Sema? Even as its coming down, we see Jellal retaining his composure and concentration while casting it, which implies he has to remain focused on the spell for it to work. Therefore, its ludicrous to argue he could even hit Natsu when he's occupied with the casting of Sema.
Literally everyone from the FT Guild would be dead if it weren't for plot, so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with that statement. As for Jellal's CQC, yeah its decent but Natsu in DF has evidence of outspeeding him, so he could match him/best him there.
Okay, I've had enough, you've pushed me to bring this up.
When Natsu was fighting Jellal and we see Jellal use his meteor, it was fast, right? Natsu responds by using his senses instead of sight to deal with meteor. The moment he does, guess what. Jellal gets faster.
You can see that when DF Natsu overcame that second meteor, Jellal was like f*ck it, and went straight to Abyss Break. It's very arguable that even in DF, Natsu cannot outspeed Jellal as Jellal has been shown to be able to speed up his meteor. The fact that he has DF alone is what allows him to fight Jellal at all in the first place. The fact that he decided not to outspeed Natsu was because he's INTELLIGENT and just decided to end the fight.
3 hits might be enough against Jellal. I'm fairly confident that DF Natsu will land 3 hits quickly regardless of Meteor from Jellal. 2 punches will do considerable damage and a Secret art would be enough to finish, assuming that a DF secret art should be stronger than Demolishing Strike. There's also no reason for me to think Natsu can't use FDK spells while in Dragon Force, but I'm not going to speculate on that for this tournament.
> Att
Yeah sorry, I was writing kind of quickly. Taking into account smaller-scale attacks, I'd still say at best it evens out.
> Def
Yes, hence the =?, it's pretty inapplicable to these two.
"BUT Intelligence and Versatility. You make it seem like there was room for debate but there really is not. Jellal is the single most intelligent fighter we have seen in Fairy Tail so far. He would leave even Levy and the likes in his dust with little to no effort. He strategizes crazy fast and assesses the current situation the moment it happens. He has the second biggest Arsenal of Spells and Magic Types only topped by supposedly August whom we have only seen cast Heat Magic. So he is the most versatile Mage we have confirmation of."
Lol, I was being nice. Jellal stomps on intelligence and versatility for sure. Brains > Brawn
Okay, I've had enough, you've pushed me to bring this up.
When Natsu was fighting Jellal and we see Jellal use his meteor, it was fast, right? Natsu responds by using his senses instead of sight to deal with meteor. The moment he does, guess what. Jellal gets faster.
You can see that when DF Natsu overcame that second meteor, Jellal was like f*ck it, and went straight to Abyss Break. It's very arguable that even in DF, Natsu cannot outspeed Jellal as Jellal has been shown to be able to speed up his meteor. The fact that he has DF alone is what allows him to fight Jellal at all in the first place. The fact that he decided not to outspeed Natsu was because he's INTELLIGENT and just decided to end the fight.
Why would you even bring up base Natsu, while Jellal meteor in an instant isn't that relevant. Jellal got faster because he wasn't going all out at first, Natsu flat out rushes him at the start and then Jellal uses meteor and says he couldn't match his speed where Natsu flat out blitzes him at that moment, if Jellal could go any faster he would have like that first time he was about to get hit. ToH DF Natsu is undoubtedly faster than ToH Jellal.
Okay, I've had enough, you've pushed me to bring this up.
When Natsu was fighting Jellal and we see Jellal use his meteor, it was fast, right? Natsu responds by using his senses instead of sight to deal with meteor. The moment he does, guess what. Jellal gets faster.
You can see that when DF Natsu overcame that second meteor, Jellal was like f*ck it, and went straight to Abyss Break. It's very arguable that even in DF, Natsu cannot outspeed Jellal as Jellal has been shown to be able to speed up his meteor. The fact that he has DF alone is what allows him to fight Jellal at all in the first place. The fact that he decided not to outspeed Natsu was because he's INTELLIGENT and just decided to end the fight.
Jellal was going just as fast as ever with Meteor when Natsu outsped him with Dragon Force, and if you look at the manga, he went to Abyss Break because he'd been pushed so far by Natsu's raw strength. The hit Natsu got on Jellal was the 3rd of the four hits Dragon Force Natsu landed on Jellal, the 4th sending Jellal crashing through the ToH and ending the fight. Look at the manga when Natsu landed that 3rd hit, Jellal screams "Impossible!", meaning he can't believe Natsu is fast enough to catch up to him, which he wouldn't of done if he could've just gone even faster like you're implying. Rather, Jellal was at the max with his speed and Natsu still outsped him and caught up to him, pushing him to the point where just to end the fight he'd forfeit everything he'd fought for that far. Thats how desperate Jellal was to stop Natsu because he realised he was damn close to getting defeated. Jellal wasn't being intelligent when he went for Abyss Break, rather he went for it because he was desperate.
Why wouldn't three hits from Natsu be enough? Four hits from Natsu in Dragon Force was enough to put Jellal away in the Tower of Heaven, and Natsu is a whole lot stronger offensively now than he was back then. On the other hand, Jellal hasn't shown any improvements in durability so whats to say that four attacks in Dragon Force now wouldn't drop him like what happened in the Tower of Heaven? If anything, it'd be less than that now that Natsu is stronger, literally a few attacks in FDKM would be more than enough to put Jellal away now.
Why would you even bring up base Natsu, while Jellal meteor in an instant isn't that relevant. Jellal got faster because he wasn't going all out at first, Natsu flat out rushes him at the start and then Jellal uses meteor and says he couldn't match his speed where Natsu flat out blitzes him at that moment, if Jellal could go any faster he would have like that first time he was about to get hit. ToH DF Natsu is undoubtedly faster than ToH Jellal.
Yes, I agree. I worded it a bit sloppily. What I was trying to imply is that Jellal did not retaliate to Natsu's change in speed in DF. He intelligently opted to cast Abyss Break. So to say that DF Natsu clearly "outspeeds" Jellal unanimously personally feels a bit of a stretch. (imo)
Jellal was going just as fast as ever with Meteor when Natsu outsped him with Dragon Force, and if you look at the manga, he went to Abyss Break because he'd been pushed so far by Natsu's raw strength. The hit Natsu got on Jellal was the 3rd of the four hits Dragon Force Natsu landed on Jellal, the 4th sending Jellal crashing through the ToH and ending the fight. Look at the manga when Natsu landed that 3rd hit, Jellal screams "Impossible!", meaning he can't believe Natsu is fast enough to catch up to him, which he wouldn't of done if he could've just gone even faster like you're implying. Rather, Jellal was at the max with his speed and Natsu still outsped him and caught up to him, pushing him to the point where just to end the fight he'd forfeit everything he'd fought for that far. Thats how desperate Jellal was to stop Natsu because he realised he was damn close to getting defeated. Jellal wasn't being intelligent when he went for Abyss Break, rather he went for it because he was desperate.
Why wouldn't three hits from Natsu be enough? Four hits from Natsu in Dragon Force was enough to put Jellal away in the Tower of Heaven, and Natsu is a whole lot stronger offensively now than he was back then. On the other hand, Jellal hasn't shown any improvements in durability so whats to say that four attacks in Dragon Force now wouldn't drop him like what happened in the Tower of Heaven? If anything, it'd be less than that now that Natsu is stronger, literally a few attacks in FDKM would be more than enough to put Jellal away now.
Ha ha ! It's the 4-hit King Samuel! You already know my take on it. He was already weakened at towards the end of his durability after all off the a-s pulls (wasting energy on Altairis on simon, taking a sword to chest, and my favorite, using his energy to beat up Plotsu.)
Only qouted the relevant part. The rest has been chewed through and through basically already been digested three times and shat out again. No real need to discuss the 4/3 hit and DF Natsu outspeeding anymore
Ha ha ! It's the 4-hit King Samuel! You already know my take on it. He was already weakened at towards the end of his durability after all off the a-s pulls (wasting energy on Altairis on simon, taking a sword to chest, and my favorite, using his energy to beat up Plotsu.)
My my, I don't see why you need to stoop to things like "Plotsu" when we're trying to have a healthy debate here.
Really, casting spells shouldn't affect his durability whatsoever, only his stamina, so you're literally admitting that Jellal's durability is not that good at all. And even though the fight (like pretty much every fight n FT) involves plot, its still a fact that Natsu in DF hit Jellal four times, and that finished Jellal. If you're still going to argue against this, read the "Dragon Force" chapter. Natsu hits Jellal four times in Dragon Force. Yes, four times, and that was enough to beat Jellal, and thats all that matters here in the end. Natsu is much stronger now, and a few FDKM attacks would more than seal the deal.
2 hits and a Demolishing Strike-level attack will be enough on feats so far. The secret art should be stronger, but even if you place it at Demolishing strike level, it's still gonna do big time damage on Jellal.
Natsu's foray against Alvarez soliders (FD Talons, FD Iron Fist and FDK Roar) is probably enough to drop Jellal. If not defeat, put Jellal in a very banged up state. GC is probably not enough to defeat Natsu, so he'd also have to string together a barrage of attacks.
My my, I don't see why you need to stoop to things like "Plotsu" when we're trying to have a healthy debate here.
Really, casting spells shouldn't affect his durability whatsoever, only his stamina, so you're literally admitting that Jellal's durability is not that good at all. And even though the fight (like pretty much every fight n FT) involves plot, its still a fact that Natsu in DF hit Jellal four times, and that finished Jellal. If you're still going to argue against this, read the "Dragon Force" chapter. Natsu hits Jellal four times in Dragon Force. Yes, four times, and that was enough to beat Jellal, and thats all that matters here in the end. Natsu is much stronger now, and a few FDKM attacks would more than seal the deal.
Stamina and durability is directly proportional in Fairy Tail. As seen through Laxus's hit from Hades, and Lucy saying "he took that hit with no magic power" the less magic one has, the lower their defensive endurance becomes, implicatively speaking. Endurance/Stamina is almost always seen together.
2 hits and a Demolishing Strike-level attack will be enough on feats so far. The secret art should be stronger, but even if you place it at Demolishing strike level, it's still gonna do big time damage on Jellal.
Natsu's foray against Alvarez soliders (FD Talons, FD Iron Fist and FDK Roar) is probably enough to drop Jellal. If not defeat, put Jellal in a very banged up state. GC is probably not enough to defeat Natsu, so he'd also have to string together a barrage of attacks.
One GC is DEFINITELY not enough to drop Natsu. In Fact based on how much he tanked in FT so far i would argue he could take a Straight hit from Sema and still barely survive it (That is assuming the heat damage is negated like Augusts Spell) simply because we have so far not seen any one single hit straight up take out Natsu
One GC is DEFINITELY not enough to drop Natsu. In Fact based on how much he tanked in FT so far i would argue he could take a Straight hit from Sema and still barely survive it (That is assuming the heat damage is negated like Augusts Spell) simply because we have so far not seen any one single hit straight up take out Natsu
Yes we have. Jellal after waking up in the cave with his heavenly beams one-hit took out Natsu (what a coincidence). And that was without even realizing he did it.
One GC is DEFINITELY not enough to drop Natsu. In Fact based on how much he tanked in FT so far i would argue he could take a Straight hit from Sema and still barely survive it (That is assuming the heat damage is negated like Augusts Spell) simply because we have so far not seen any one single hit straight up take out Natsu
I do think Jellal would need a few attacks, I'd say 3 GC's would definitely get it done on feats. Natsu has tremendous endurance so it could be more, but it's quite likely that Neinharts durability is roughly around both Natsu's and Jellal's.
I think Natsu negated the heat of August's spell at some point, but not immediately as it did damage. Also August's spell would be fairly powerful.
Yes we have. Jellal after waking up in the cave with his heavenly beams one-hit took out Natsu (what a coincidence). And that was without even realizing he did it.
blasting him into a wall to knock him out for the entirety of 30 Seconds...you consider THAT an attack?...Rai han please you should know better than that.
blasting him into a wall to knock him out for the entirety of 30 Seconds...you consider THAT an attack?...Rai han please you should know better than that.
Sorry, I waited many pages for the opportunity to bring that up. LOOOOL.
For a serious answer, I guess there isn't anything notable . . . he was no-shotted by Gildarts, when Gildarts released magic power, but yeah. And like @Indira mentioned, Silver one-shotted shotted him. But those aren't really durability related.
Next thing we know Nab isn't a stereotypical Native American and slightly black. Either way. My Point is almost still standing The Gildarts thing is the closest we have come to Natsu realistically having been put down by one offensive move. Silver freezing him will be disregarded for this because as you said that is not durability related
So just so we're clear. We now established that Natsu is most likely capable of tanking at least one hit of any attack from Jellal. Depending on which hit that is a further hit would be enough though. For our Jelly bean though...doesn't look that good because as was establishedthe only time he tanked any hits was from already exhausted enemies. Ever since he dodged through life. Also his entire being is more on avoidance which means his focus is not set to Tanking hits so MOST LIKELY he is NOT capable of safely tanking Natsus Endgame Spells. Lesser ones yes he can take a few of them no problem but Demolition Strike or stuff like that would probably leave him hanging.
You mentioned there isn't a "hit" or "spell" that took out Natsu out of battle, nothing about oneshots.
Well infact, there were occasions already mentioned here:
so Silver's instant freeze still took out Natsu regardless of him frozen alive or not. It wasn't a oneshot per say but it was enough to render Natsu useless in combat.
Aria's magic sap power was enough to almost took out Natsu, but Natsu got lucky and was saved by Erza.
If I recall correctly, there was some fodder attack that took out Natsu but I can't remember what it was. Will do research on what that was.
Next thing we know Nab isn't a stereotypical Native American and slightly black. Either way. My Point is almost still standing The Gildarts thing is the closest we have come to Natsu realistically having been put down by one offensive move. Silver freezing him will be disregarded for this because as you said that is not durability related
I agree. I don't disagree that we haven't seen Natsu one-shotted in a fight and that's fine. Great, since it serves to support the claim that Natsu has high durability. Same with Jellal. Which is why I advocated earlier that a few hits from either side are not enough to determine a victor -- this would be a Laxus vs. Gajeel/Natsu or Fairy Tail vs. Hades level fight. And dude no, I wouldn't be surprised if was never native american to begin with.
