Final Jellal Fernandes vs Natsu Dragneel

[Solitrine]

Misconceptions in this thread I've seen:
- Jellal was damaged by Neinhart's blast: He wasn't. He drowned underwater (air was knocked out of him from tanking the attack in the back), you can see he took absolutely no damage from Neinhart's blast both when he is underwater and when Kagura pulls him up.
- DF Natsu was faster than Jellal in ToH: Re-read the fight and you see as soon as Jellal wants to get away from Natsu after Natsu attacks him, he does easily by increasing his Meteor speed. Infact he got up to the sky and was already finished casting Abyss Break before Natsu even got to the top of the lacrima.

 

[Rain Cloud]

Misconceptions in this thread I've seen:
- Jellal was damaged by Neinhart's blast. He drowned underwater (air was knocked out of him from tanking the attack in the back), you can see he took absolutely no damage from Neinhart's blast both when he is underwater and when Kagura pulls him up.
- DF Natsu was faster than Jellal in ToH. Re-read the fight and you see as soon as Jellal wants to get away from Natsu after Natsu attacks him, he does easily by increasing his Meteor speed. Infact he got up to the sky and was already finished casting Abyss Break before Natsu even got to the top of the lacrima.

Thank you.

The moment Jellal realizes that DF Natsu closed the gap with his punch, he easily just speeds away deciding he's done with Natsu.

 

[Brandish μ]

DF Natsu is faster than Meteor. He caught him. I'd say meteor is better at keeping a constant fast speed, while DF Natsu needs a good surface to generate Meteor+ speed.

Abyss break isn't HB magic so I assume Sema is stronger. Sema > AB > GC would be my best guess.

 

[Solitrine]

DF Natsu is faster than Meteor. He caught him. I'd say meteor is better at keeping a constant fast speed, while DF Natsu needs a good surface to generate Meteor+ speed.

Abyss break isn't HB magic so I assume Sema is stronger. Sema > AB > GC would be my best guess.

DF Natsu is faster than <100% meteor, as soon as Jellal used his Meteor at 100% we can see that Natsu couldn't keep up even with surfaces to launch off of (as shown in the linked manga panel above). But since this battle is held in a neutral environment, DF Natsu isn't going to be able to do anything with his speed once Jellal is in the air.

 

[Rain Cloud]

DF Natsu is faster than Meteor. He caught him. I'd say meteor is better at keeping a constant fast speed, while DF Natsu needs a good surface to generate Meteor+ speed.

Abyss break isn't HB magic so I assume Sema is stronger. Sema > AB > GC would be my best guess.

Sorry, we haven't seen Natsu move in multi-direction at fast speed and maneuver the way Jellal. Only straight launched off of falling debris. And because we haven't seen it, it is against the rules to assume he can match Jellal's speed in a fight where Jellal is obviously not going to stand around.

 

[SirSamuel016]

The dude was just underwater and unconscious.

Natsu aslo went all out on the God of war.
http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/433/20
http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/434/13
Flashes back to Igneels death and uses his right arm where the bandages are.

Yeah, Jellal was knocked unconscious from one attack. That isn't doing him any favours.
Natsu was going all out against the war god? Please, he didn't even enter another mode, he just used the demolition fist in base mode with his own magic.

So now that your durability argument isn't enough, you're suggesting Natsu suddenly has speed leagues ahead of Jellal. Again, Jellal didn't retaliate with speed, he was smart and gave up on the tower (which is impressive for Natsu, good for him).

And you know what, I just went and rewatched that fight. Go look at that fight. Natsu caught up to Jellal by putting flames underneath his feet to propel him straight towards Jellal. You know what that means? Based of what we see Natsu can launch himself straight up at speeds that surpass meteor, but there's nothing saying that he can maneuver with flames around his feet while maintaining that speed. He has only been seen to go straight and launch himself like a rocket. FDKM Natsu w/ Igneel flames has done that again with Zeref Post Time skip, just straight. He has ever ONLY BEEN SHOWN TO GO AT HIGH SPEEDS WHEN MOVING STRAIGHT. Against Jura, we see that Jellal can speed easily in any direction while using his attacks. If anything now, we've come to the point where it's obvious that Natsu cannot match meteor in actual combat at all. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. You just dug your own grave.

Speed: Jellal > DF Natsu

I've always been suggesting DF > Jellal when it comes to speed. Regardless of what you believe, the manga clearly shows Natsu catching up to Jellal when he tries to speed away using Meteor. Jellal then kicks Natsu back and heads to the top of the tower to then cast Abyss Break because he would lose otherwise. You can clearly see that Jellal was taken back by how fast and strong Natsu was there. It goes without saying that we're using the manga as the primary source for canon material, so whatever happened in the manga happened.

Natsu has only moved at high speeds while going straight? While he mightn't of been in DF, when he first encountered Mard Geer he was able to maneuver through Mard Geer's thorns quickly with ease without ever seeing the attack before. You can't deny those reaction speeds and the ability to dodge the attacks like that are impressive.

Jura vs Jellal is where you've slipped up, Jellal while speeding around was still unable to avoid some of Jura's attacks so whats to say Natsu couldn't use the blazing fist attack he used against Gajeel and hit Jellal with that? Yes Natsu can shoot up in the air with his flames, but he doesn't need to get in range for a physical move to hit Jellal as he still has powerful attacks like the Flame Dragon King's Roar which would hit Jellal hard. Natsu just needs to get in a position to get a decent hit on Jellal with it and Jellal comes out mighty crispy.

Thank you.

The moment Jellal realizes that DF Natsu closed the gap with his punch, he easily just speeds away deciding he's done with Natsu.

Again, if Jellal was faster than DF Natsu then why didn't he just fly away and avoid the punch that ended the fight? If Jellal was faster than DF Natsu like you claim, then Jellal would've simply dodged the attack, but he didn't because he couldn't. DF Natsu outsped him there too, and ended it with the fourth hit.

 

[Rain Cloud]

Yeah, Jellal was knocked unconscious from one attack. That isn't doing him any favours.
Natsu was going all out against the war god? Please, he didn't even enter another mode, he just used the demolition fist in base mode with his own magic.



I've always been suggesting DF > Jellal when it comes to speed. Regardless of what you believe, the manga clearly shows Natsu catching up to Jellal when he tries to speed away using Meteor. Jellal then kicks Natsu back and heads to the top of the tower to then cast Abyss Break because he would lose otherwise. You can clearly see that Jellal was taken back by how fast and strong Natsu was there. It goes without saying that we're using the manga as the primary source for canon material, so whatever happened in the manga happened.

Natsu has only moved at high speeds while going straight? While he mightn't of been in DF, when he first encountered Mard Geer he was able to maneuver through Mard Geer's thorns quickly with ease without ever seeing the attack before. You can't deny those reaction speeds and the ability to dodge the attacks like that are impressive.

Jura vs Jellal is where you've slipped up, Jellal while speeding around was still unable to avoid some of Jura's attacks so whats to say Natsu couldn't use the blazing fist attack he used against Gajeel and hit Jellal with that? Yes Natsu can shoot up in the air with his flames, but he doesn't need to get in range for a physical move to hit Jellal as he still has powerful attacks like the Flame Dragon King's Roar which would hit Jellal hard. Natsu just needs to get in a position to get a decent hit on Jellal with it and Jellal comes out mighty crispy.



Again, if Jellal was faster than DF Natsu then why didn't he just fly away and avoid the punch that ended the fight? If Jellal was faster than DF Natsu like you claim, then Jellal would've simply dodged the attack, but he didn't because he couldn't. DF Natsu outsped him there too, and ended it with the fourth hit.

No, I don't care what you say anymore. He can't do it, we haven't seen it, too bad.

The speed he was traveling at to get through Mard Geer's horns was indeed impressive (go Natsu!) but it pales in comparison to something like Meteor. Weak argument.

Also yes, he was hit by debris, but his intention, as we find out because Jellal is intelligent was to draw magic circles in the sky while avoiding those rocks.
You keep bringing up that moment because it's the best moment you have for someone hitting Jellal in meteor, but guess what, a person placing your rocks as second priority while drawing magic circles -- the fact that he didn't get hit in the end makes it all the more impressive.

 

[Hermit]

Actually,it's a little much of a stretch to say that DF Natsu>Jellal (TOH)...if you look at the last panel where Jellal was beaten into the Tower,he saw Natsu flying straight at him,but he couldn't react due to his injury from Erza..
Also it's a bit ludicrous to say that Jellal was downed by DF Natsu,considering the fact that he was able to fuse with the Tower moments after his 'defeat'...which is something he obviously did consciously,as shown when Erza willingly fused with the Tower herself,it's pretty safe to say what really took Jellal out was the overwhelming Etherion from the Tower and not Natsu's attacks...
Also,I don't see people bringing up how exactly Natsu would get past Mirror Water?Even that Roar or whatever that he just used on nameless scrubs would just get returned to him in full force..

 

[Rain Cloud]

Actually,it's a little much of a stretch to say that DF Natsu>Jellal (TOH)...if you look at the last panel where Jellal was beaten into the Tower,he saw Natsu flying straight at him,but he couldn't react due to his injury from Erza..
Also it's a bit ludicrous to say that Jellal was downed by DF Natsu,considering the fact that he was able to fuse with the Tower moments after his 'defeat'...which is something he obviously did consciously,as shown when Erza willingly fused with the Tower herself,it's pretty safe to say what really took Jellal out was the overwhelming Etherion from the Tower and not Natsu's attacks...
Also,I don't see people bringing up how exactly Natsu would get past Mirror Water?Even that Roar or whatever that he just used on nameless scrubs would just get returned to him in full force..

Not a stretch. It's completely wrong. ToH Jellal > ToH DF Natsu, Current Jellal > DF Natsu, but by a much smaller margin.

Oh yes, Mystogan's magic is allowed as well. Doesn't matter if Natsu's roars or "secret arts" or whatever at Jellal anymore -- he can just mirror water it away.

 

[Hermit]

Yeah, Jellal was knocked unconscious from one attack. That isn't doing him any favours.
Natsu was going all out against the war god? Please, he didn't even enter another mode, he just used the demolition fist in base mode with his own magic.



I've always been suggesting DF > Jellal when it comes to speed. Regardless of what you believe, the manga clearly shows Natsu catching up to Jellal when he tries to speed away using Meteor. Jellal then kicks Natsu back and heads to the top of the tower to then cast Abyss Break because he would lose otherwise. You can clearly see that Jellal was taken back by how fast and strong Natsu was there. It goes without saying that we're using the manga as the primary source for canon material, so whatever happened in the manga happened.

Natsu has only moved at high speeds while going straight? While he mightn't of been in DF, when he first encountered Mard Geer he was able to maneuver through Mard Geer's thorns quickly with ease without ever seeing the attack before. You can't deny those reaction speeds and the ability to dodge the attacks like that are impressive.

Jura vs Jellal is where you've slipped up, Jellal while speeding around was still unable to avoid some of Jura's attacks so whats to say Natsu couldn't use the blazing fist attack he used against Gajeel and hit Jellal with that? Yes Natsu can shoot up in the air with his flames, but he doesn't need to get in range for a physical move to hit Jellal as he still has powerful attacks like the Flame Dragon King's Roar which would hit Jellal hard. Natsu just needs to get in a position to get a decent hit on Jellal with it and Jellal comes out mighty crispy.



Again, if Jellal was faster than DF Natsu then why didn't he just fly away and avoid the punch that ended the fight? If Jellal was faster than DF Natsu like you claim, then Jellal would've simply dodged the attack, but he didn't because he couldn't. DF Natsu outsped him there too, and ended it with the fourth hit.

Your last point (can't highlight it because on phone)I addressed it in my post earlier,Erza's injury came back and afflicted him there,and considering the fact that it prevented him from casting a Spell properly,it's pretty obvious he couldn't react in that state...
If Jellal hadn't fought Erza earlier he would have dodged easy..

 

[SirSamuel016]

No, I don't care what you say anymore. He can't do it, we haven't seen it, too bad.

The speed he was traveling at to get through Mard Geer's horns was indeed impressive (go Natsu!) but it pales in comparison to something like Meteor. Weak argument.

Also yes, he was hit by debris, but his intention, as we find out because Jellal is intelligent was to draw magic circles in the sky while avoiding those rocks.
You keep bringing up that moment because it's the best moment you have for someone hitting Jellal in meteor, but guess what, a person placing your rocks as second priority while drawing magic circles -- the fact that he didn't get hit in the end makes it all the more impressive.

Weak argument? Boy, think about it. Natsu has that impressive reaction speed in base, so why wouldn't he be able to react just as fast and move even faster in Dragon Force? He's shown he's way faster in DF, so its only natural he'd also be able to move faster in different directions.

He didn't get hit in the end? What are you saying? Jellal got hit by Jura right as he finished it and it and he dropped to the ground before he cast Grand Chariot.

The point is, Natsu's shown he can move faster than Jellal's meteor and he has the reaction speed to adjust as needed as he's shown previously. You're literally grasping at straws here to try and get Jellal over the line when he literally gets dropped by a couple of attacks from Natsu.

Not a stretch. It's completely wrong. ToH Jellal > ToH DF Natsu, Current Jellal > DF Natsu, but by a much smaller margin.

Oh yes, Mystogan's magic is allowed as well. Doesn't matter if Natsu's roars or "secret arts" or whatever at Jellal anymore -- he can just mirror water it away.

Mirror Water would do the same sort of thing as what those brothers' pan did in the daybreak arc. It'd rehash the fire and send it back to Natsu, and he could eat the flames just like he did in the daybreak arc. So yeah, free meal to Natsu, how thoughtful. There's also the question of can Mirror Water reflect an attack with as large an AoE as the Flame Dragon King's Roar, which would go around the Mirror Water like Jura's rockiron fist.

 

[Hermit]

Weak argument? Boy, think about it. Natsu has that impressive reaction speed in base, so why wouldn't he be able to react just as fast and move even faster in Dragon Force? He's shown he's way faster in DF, so its only natural he'd also be able to move faster in different directions.

He didn't get hit in the end? What are you saying? Jellal got hit by Jura right as he finished it and it and he dropped to the ground before he cast Grand Chariot.

The point is, Natsu's shown he can move faster than Jellal's meteor and he has the reaction speed to adjust as needed as he's shown previously. You're literally grasping at straws here to try and get Jellal over the line when he literally gets dropped by a couple of attacks from Natsu.



Mirror Water would do the same sort of thing as what those brothers' pan did in the daybreak arc. It'd rehash the fire and send it back to Natsu, and he could eat the flames just like he did in the daybreak arc. So yeah, free meal to Natsu, how thoughtful. There's also the question of can Mirror Water reflect an attack with as large an AoE as the Flame Dragon King's Roar, which would go around the Mirror Water like Jura's rockiron fist.

Uh,Natsu can't eat his own Flames,Slayer properties?It was a point that was brought up in Gray vs Silver when Gray used Silver's own ice on him..
Also comparing a magical spell to a magical equipment...yeahhhhh...no.

 

[Rain Cloud]

Weak argument? Boy, think about it. Natsu has that impressive reaction speed in base, so why wouldn't he be able to react just as fast and move even faster in Dragon Force? He's shown he's way faster in DF, so its only natural he'd also be able to move faster in different directions.

He didn't get hit in the end? What are you saying? Jellal got hit by Jura right as he finished it and it and he dropped to the ground before he cast Grand Chariot.

The point is, Natsu's shown he can move faster than Jellal's meteor and he has the reaction speed to adjust as needed as he's shown previously. You're literally grasping at straws here to try and get Jellal over the line when he literally gets dropped by a couple of attacks from Natsu.



Mirror Water would do the same sort of thing as what those brothers' pan did in the daybreak arc. It'd rehash the fire and send it back to Natsu, and he could eat the flames just like he did in the daybreak arc. So yeah, free meal to Natsu, how thoughtful. There's also the question of can Mirror Water reflect an attack with as large an AoE as the Flame Dragon King's Roar, which would go around the Mirror Water like Jura's rockiron fist.

Whoops made a type

"the fact that he didn't get hit until the end****"

Because that's just speculation. The way he ended up moving at that speed was again, a burst of flames at his feet. If Jellal is moving in many directions, Natsu would have trouble re-adjusting that direction since he's firing himself off from one point. And again, he's only done it in a straight line, there's nothing saying he can fire it out of his belly button to move backwards or something.

I'm not grasping at straws. I've just unearthed your inadequate points with no substance that ended up helping it be more obvious that Jellal clearly defeats Natsu.

At @SirSamuel016 just saw your awful post about mirror water, too.

Jellal's straight up sending back THE SAME fire natsu launches off. Natsu cannot eat his own flames. (hah what irony, guess Natsu can't eat Natsu's flames as well.)

 

[Hermit]

@Rain Cloud the irony part in your statement is killing me at the moment xD
Also,Jellal can easily use Bind Snake on Natsu if he engages him in CQC with Meteor,unlike Sting's Holy Stigmata which Natsu burned off (because Sting was weaker),this time Natsu is having a Seal on his body placed by a mage superior than him,he won't burn through it or anything..
There are several spells that Jellal can use in this fight,all of which Natsu won't have a counter too save for his tough body,and even then that body can't take out anything that Jellal dishes out past Grand Chariot..

 

[SirSamuel016]

Whoops made a type

"the fact that he didn't get hit until the end****"

Because that's just speculation. The way he ended up moving at that speed was again, a burst of flames at his feet. If Jellal is moving in many directions, Natsu would have trouble re-adjusting that direction since he's firing himself off from one point. And again, he's only done it in a straight line, there's nothing saying he can fire it out of his belly button to move backwards or something.

I'm not grasping at straws. I've just unearthed your inadequate points with no substance that ended up helping it be more obvious that Jellal clearly defeats Natsu.

How is it speculation that someone would be able to move faster in Dragon Force when he's shown he's a lot faster? He's shown that in base he can react and move quickly according to whats happening, so its absurd to argue that he wouldn't be able to do the same in Dragon Force. He might not be able to shoot fire out of his belly button, but in the past we've seen Natsu fire a roar to move further in a direction, so he's able to use a roar to push him in another direction. Thats another way he can change the where he is moving.

Unearthed my inadequate posts? How are they inadequate? If anything, for the most part you've been bringing up points that are long dead and buried and just get rebutted again and again. You can keep throwing whatever you can come with at me, but nothing you've put forward has actually defended Jellal's poor durability or swayed be from thinking Natsu wouldn't win this. Jellal still has poor durability and at the end of the day, Natsu just needs to land a couple of hits and Jellal is done. Finnito (just like a burrito I'd eat). Natsu's got the better offence, defense, durability and when using Dragon Force the better speed so its not hard to believe he'd catch Jellal and finish it 1 2 3. Even if he just got one attack in while using FDKM it'd hit Jellal really hard and he'd also suffer heat damage from the sheer heat of FDKM from Natsu getting close to him. Jellal really is at a loss here, and I'd say Natsu takes this mid-high diff.

 

[Rain Cloud]

@Rain Cloud the irony part in your statement is killing me at the moment xD
Also,Jellal can easily use Bind Snake on Natsu if he engages him in CQC with Meteor,unlike Sting's Holy Stigmata which Natsu burned off (because Sting was weaker),this time Natsu is having a Seal on his body placed by a mage superior than him,he won't burn through it or anything..
There are several spells that Jellal can use in this fight,all of which Natsu won't have a counter too save for his tough body,and even then that body can't take out anything that Jellal dishes out past Grand Chariot..

Bind-snake I think requires a person to draw the thing on the opponents back. If Jellal somehow used it on him and Natsu were to burn through it, it wouldn't surprise me. I don't think Natsu and Jellal have that big of a gap.

But yeah, Natsu doesn't really have counters to Jellal's spells other than dodging and maybe burning.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 29, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 29, 2016 ---

How is it speculation that someone would be able to move faster in Dragon Force when he's shown he's a lot faster? He's shown that in base he can react and move quickly according to whats happening, so its absurd to argue that he wouldn't be able to do the same in Dragon Force. He might not be able to shoot fire out of his belly button, but in the past we've seen Natsu fire a roar to move further in a direction, so he's able to use a roar to push him in another direction. Thats another way he can change the where he is moving.

Unearthed my inadequate posts? How are they inadequate? If anything, for the most part you've been bringing up points that are long dead and buried and just get rebutted again and again. You can keep throwing whatever you can come with at me, but nothing you've put forward has actually defended Jellal's poor durability or swayed be from thinking Natsu wouldn't win this. Jellal still has poor durability and at the end of the day, Natsu just needs to land a couple of hits and Jellal is done. Finnito (just like a burrito I'd eat). Natsu's got the better offence, defense, durability and when using Dragon Force the better speed so its not hard to believe he'd catch Jellal and finish it 1 2 3. Even if he just got one attack in while using FDKM it'd hit Jellal really hard and he'd also suffer heat damage from the sheer heat of FDKM from Natsu getting close to him. Jellal really is at a loss here, and I'd say Natsu takes this mid-high diff.

Yes, sorry I don't even remember what I wrote but anyway it's just like this whole Natsu's DF power level problem.

You're guessing how much faster DF is than base. Just like how people wanted to guess how much stronger DF was to FDKM. You have no solid proof, so we go by what is shown. Again, yes as I've said, Natsu can somewhat maneuver, but against something as smooth as meteor, that is an extremely poor tactic to use. There's no proof he can maintain speed, either while doing so. He's better of doing a huge AoE (which he doesn't have, btw) to stop Jellal.

I've defended Jellal's high durability plenty, it's not my fault that you won't be swayed from understanding that Natsu has little shot at defeating Jellal as he is currently. He's strong yes. He's shown more growth than Jellal, DEFINITELY. But there is still a small (yes, I say small) gap between the two. Unless his DF ends up being out of this world, I doubt it will be until his dragonization that he will be an obvious clear cut above Laxus, God Serena, and Jellal without any arguments possible otherwise. But this is current, and current Natsu cannot defeat Jellal without plot to help him along the way.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Yes, sorry I don't even remember what I wrote but anyway it's just like this whole Natsu's DF power level problem.

You're guessing how much faster DF is than base. Just like how people wanted to guess how much stronger DF was to FDKM. You have no solid proof, so we go by what is shown. Again, yes as I've said, Natsu can somewhat maneuver, but against something as smooth as meteor, that is an extremely poor tactic to use. There's no proof he can maintain speed, either while doing so. He's better of doing a huge AoE (which he doesn't have, btw) to stop Jellal.

I've defended Jellal's high durability plenty, it's not my fault that you won't be swayed from understanding that Natsu has no shot at defeating Jellal. He's strong yes. He's shown more growth than Jellal, DEFINITELY. But there is still a small (yes, I say small) gap between the two. Unless his DF ends up being out of this world, I doubt it will be until his dragonization that he will be an obvious clear cut above Laxus, God Serena, and Jellal without any arguments possible otherwise. But this is current, and current Natsu cannot defeat Jellal.

Are you seriously questioning if Dragon Force is faster than Base Natsu now? We've seen it be faster than Jellal's Meteor before and seeing Natsu's grown faster in Base, then naturally his DF will also be faster. Yes, Jellal's Meteor might also be faster, but Natsu has still out-sped Meteor in the past, hence there's no reason it wouldn't be the case now.

Jellal's high durability? Getting taken out by four punches from Dragon Force Natsu makes his durability average. What makes it look worse, which it is, is because Jellal got one-shotted by Neinhart's tiny kawaii explosion. You can't deny that he was one-shotted as he was clearly under the water, not breathing etc. Now Natsu's attacks deal more damage than Neinhart's explosion, as we've seen them be just as, if not, more destructive. With a FDKM FDK Demolition Fist he took out a Spriggan that likely would've been one-shotted by the attack. Thats impressive offence right there, so do you really think Jellal could take a few of those tier attacks from Natsu when basic punches from DF Natsu was enough to defeat Jellal in the past? The answer is clearly a no. If you want to speculate on how powerful DF may be, I'd say its even stronger than FDKM given its the final form a DS can achieve, but enough of that. Tell me explicitly how and why Jellal can actually beat Natsu, because all I've seen so far is "he dodges attack with they meteor and drops semas/gc", when really it'd take a toll on him to drop those attacks, and he leaves himself wide open when he charges them up. Natsu just needs to land a few hits and its over. Simple as that.

 

[Rain Cloud]

Are you seriously questioning if Dragon Force is faster than Base Natsu now? We've seen it be faster than Jellal's Meteor before and seeing Natsu's grown faster in Base, then naturally his DF will also be faster. Yes, Jellal's Meteor might also be faster, but Natsu has still out-sped Meteor in the past, hence there's no reason it wouldn't be the case now.

Jellal's high durability? Getting taken out by four punches from Dragon Force Natsu makes his durability average. What makes it look worse, which it is, is because Jellal got one-shotted by Neinhart's tiny kawaii explosion. You can't deny that he was one-shotted as he was clearly under the water, not breathing etc. Now Natsu's attacks deal more damage than Neinhart's explosion, as we've seen them be just as, if not, more destructive. With a FDKM FDK Demolition Fist he took out a Spriggan that likely would've been one-shotted by the attack. Thats impressive offence right there, so do you really think Jellal could take a few of those tier attacks from Natsu when basic punches from DF Natsu was enough to defeat Jellal in the past? The answer is clearly a no. If you want to speculate on how powerful DF may be, I'd say its even stronger than FDKM given its the final form a DS can achieve, but enough of that. Tell me explicitly how and why Jellal can actually beat Natsu, because all I've seen so far is "he dodges attack with they meteor and drops semas/gc", when really it'd take a toll on him to drop those attacks, and he leaves himself wide open when he charges them up. Natsu just needs to land a few hits and its over. Simple as that.

NO I AM NOT QUESTIONING THAT DF NATSU IS FASTER THAN BASE NATSU. What I'm saying is WE DO NOT KNOW HOW MUCH FASTER DF NATSU IS THAN BASE NATSU. JUST like how we don't know how much strong DF is than FDKM.

Again all Natsu did was close the gap in a straight line. There's nothing suggesting he can move at that speed if Jellal goes in all his crazy directions -- just speculation as to how much faster natsu is in DF than base, which straight up we do not know.

I don't want to speculate how much stronger DF is than FDKM because that's BS and not solid or satisfactory information in a debate.

And straight up, if you're saying Natsu can fire off his demolition fist over and over (which we have never seen him do) at Jellal, then Jellal has no reason not to spam Grand Chariot and knock Natsu out first because even though Natsu has top-tier MC durability, Jellal has high durability as well.

 

[Axiomus]

What's the worse that could happen with mirror water anyways? Natsu could just tank his own fire, couldn't he? He managed to negate Auust's attack because it was a heat-based magic. It's not as if Jellal is going to reflect every single attack that comes his way either. Mirror water is unlikely going to work with any hand to hand attacks. Also, Jellal would have to be willing to carry around Mystogan's staffs in order to use this.

 

[SirSamuel016]

NO I AM NOT QUESTIONING THAT DF NATSU IS FASTER THAN BASE NATSU. What I'm saying is WE DO NOT KNOW HOW MUCH FASTER DF NATSU IS THAN BASE NATSU. JUST like how we don't know how much strong DF is than FDKM.

Again all Natsu did was close the gap in a straight line. There's nothing suggesting he can move at that speed if Jellal goes in all his crazy directions -- just speculation as to how much faster natsu is in DF than base, which straight up we do not know.

I don't want to speculate how much stronger DF is than FDKM because that's BS and not solid or satisfactory information in a debate.

And straight up, if you're saying Natsu can fire off his demolition fist over and over (which we have never seen him do) at Jellal, then Jellal has no reason not to spam Grand Chariot and knock Natsu out first because even though Natsu has top-tier MC durability, Jellal has high durability as well.

Well from what we've seen so far the speed at which DF Natsu can travel is greater than Meteor, and DF can be speculated as being stronger than FDKM (Which imo it should be, with it being the final phase of Dragon Slayer magic and all).

Even if Jellal is moving around in unusual lines etc., there is nothing to say Natsu still can't hit him. Natsu has his ranged attacks and its not like they'll effect him at all as its fire magic and he doesn't take much damage from that stuff. What you're implying is that Jellal will always be on the defence from Natsu's attacks rather than trying to attack as well, and if he goes for his Grand Chariot or Sema (both which have to be charged if you want them to be stronger/work), then he's wide open to an attack.

Now I never said Natsu could fire off Flame Dragon King Demolition Fists all the time, but there isn't anything to say he can't either. We're allowed reasonable speculation so its not wrong to speculate he could use two in a combo, or throw some FDK spells in a combo. His combo definitely wouldn't be as long (have as many attacks) as a combo with regular flame dragon spells, but they'd still do a huge amount of damage when just one is enough to drop a Spriggan who was in really good condition. Jellal's durability is low enough that he'd be taken down with a couple of punches and the Demolition Fist, all that would be stronger than the four punches Natsu hit Jellal with while in Dragon Force in the ToH arc. Bottom line is, if Natsu hits Jellal then Jellal is in a pickle as he wouldn't be able to take too much more damage, and Natsu is more than capable of getting to him with his speed. Your "straight lines = Natsu's speed" argument is a bit silly as Natsu has shown in base he can change directions quickly, so the same would apply to Dragon Force which is just the most advanced form for a Dragon Slayer.