Final Jellal Fernandes vs Natsu Dragneel

[MCG_Raven]

Sorry man, but I don't see it that way. To me those pillars just look like one of the visual effects of Grand Chariot, sort of to indicate that it's being used. When they noticed the pillars, it looked like they noticed it right as Jellal was about to finish casting it and while Racer could've probably dodged it, he might have still been in shock about being caught in it and probably didn't think straight. I just think we need confirmation that it does exist before using it as a feat for Jellal.

Adding to this would be that the two sequences don't necessarily get portrayed chronologically. Remember when the Pillars were gone the second we saw Jellal actually cast GC? Yes this was there to show us that he has actually long since used it and those Pillars were in fact GC about to hit. It has merely been slowed down in that moment visually for dramatic effect as media usually does. So basically when we see Jellal start the incantation that actually happened seconds before the last panels.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Sorry man, but I don't see it that way. To me those pillars just look like one of the visual effects of Grand Chariot, sort of to indicate that it's being used. When they noticed the pillars, it looked like they noticed it right as Jellal was about to finish casting it and while Racer could've probably dodged it, he might have still been in shock about being caught in it and probably didn't think straight. I just think we need confirmation that it does exist before using it as a feat for Jellal.

Fair enough, I can understand why you don't agree with my point of view, I just wanted to make sure that you got where my speculation came from.

I'll still be counting it of course.

Adding to this would be that the two sequences don't necessarily get portrayed chronologically. Remember when the Pillars were gone the second we saw Jellal actually cast GC? Yes this was there to show us that he has actually long since used it and those Pillars were in fact GC about to hit. It has merely been slowed down in that moment visually for dramatic effect as media usually does. So basically when we see Jellal start the incantation that actually happened seconds before the last panels.

I didn't actually interpret that from the scans, that being said I can see what you mean. I'm sticking by my "Solid Seal" speculation but thanks for pointing the above out, I'm going to move on to other points now, I think we've discussed "Solid Seal" to it's fullest extent.

 

[Axiomus]

Grand Chariot requires Jellal to draw an array of 7 "stars" in the sky in the formation of the big dipper.

Spoiler: Jellal's array vs Jura

The seal Jellal used against Oracion Seis was 3 dimensional. Jellal is drawing the same exact array, only now the pattern is 3D. I'm not exactly sure what exactly this accomplishes, except maybe to make the spell stronger. I've uploaded scans from my copy of volume 43, and interestingly enough they've actually omitted the part where it's mentioned to be 3D. Really, the important part of that line was that Jellal managed to draw a magical array/pattern before anyone noticed.

Spoiler: Jellal's array vs the Oracion Seis

Now I don't know where people got the idea that you couldn't move inside the solid seal, and I don't really think it's relevant. The attack is probably fast enough so as to be impractical to dodge one it starts. However, if you're trying to imply that all movement is impossible and that you can't even raise your arms to shield yourself, then that's just not true. It's still possible to move your arms, and you can see that with Angel in the image above. Jura was also able to clap his hands together to cast rock-mountain god.

 

[Woodenstool]

Natsu was not using Igneel's power against the god of war. I've gone over this countless times by now. Natsu only used Zeref's power when he unwrapped the bandages against Zeref. Natsu had said he can only use Igneel's power once, and that's exactly what he did - used it against Zeref. I don't see why people can't accept this at face value.

Natsu does not need to use Igneel's power to cast FDK spells: When Natsu started unwrapping his bandages, Happy was surprised that Natsu was going to use Igneel's power so soon against Zeref when he started to unwrap his bandages. Happy had absolutely no reaction to Natsu using a fire dragon's roar against the Alvarez Troops. If FDK really used any of Igneel's power, Happy should not have been surprised that Natsu was using Igneel's power against Zeref if he already used it on the Alvarez troops. When Natsu was actually using Igneel's power, he did not start off with FDK mode attacks. Only the (second) last attack he used against Zeref was an FDK attack. What does this prove? That the majority of FDK spells were done without Igneel's power, and the majority of spells done with Igneel's power were not FDK spells. Since exhausting Igneel's power, Natsu has shown the ability to continue using FDK mode and spells. This alone should settle once and for all that Natsu can use FDK spells without invoking Igneel's power.

You're are inccorect, Happy said "he's planning to use it all at once"

That means Natsu had access to this power before. And Happy says he saw this power before, it's actually obvious. Did you think Natsu just unlocked this power and never used or it tested it?

Natsu made it very clear that those were Igneels flames.
"Let me show what IGNEELS FLAMES are mode of"

 

[Raven]

No! Happy never said that, Happy said he is planning to use that power at the very beginning of the fight (instantly) not in the middle of the fight , it's not a rocket science

 

[Ebony Maw]

Grand Chariot requires Jellal to draw an array of 7 "stars" in the sky in the formation of the big dipper.

Spoiler: Jellal's array vs Jura

The seal Jellal used against Oracion Seis was 3 dimensional. Jellal is drawing the same exact array, only now the pattern is 3D. I'm not exactly sure what exactly this accomplishes, except maybe to make the spell stronger. I've uploaded scans from my copy of volume 43, and interestingly enough they've actually omitted the part where it's mentioned to be 3D. Really, the important part of that line was that Jellal managed to draw a magical array/pattern before anyone noticed.

Spoiler: Jellal's array vs the Oracion Seis

Now I don't know where people got the idea that you couldn't move inside the solid seal, and I don't really think it's relevant. The attack is probably fast enough so as to be impractical to dodge one it starts. However, if you're trying to imply that all movement is impossible and that you can't even raise your arms to shield yourself, then that's just not true. It's still possible to move your arms, and you can see that with Angel in the image above. Jura was also able to clap his hands together to cast rock-mountain god.

Good reply, though I do have a couple of new points, the first being that the seals before Jellal casts GC are way to low to in the air to be GC. Every time Grand Chariot has been cast the seals have always been noticeably high in the air (see Jellal vs Jura and Jellal vs Neinhart), it even looks different here in the next panel, the beams of light come from much higher than where the seals were. In addition, I didn't put my words well in the previous posts, I meant to say that they couldn't move away from the Solid Seal, so sorry for any confusion there.

I don't buy Racer not getting out of there before GC struck either, we saw in a previous panel during the fight that Racer closed the gap between him and Jellal in an immensely fast moment, to the extent that he looks like he teleports to behind Jellal. If Racer can close that gap so quickly than he should have been able to get away from GC easily, yet he doesn't.

Edit: There's only six seals in the Jura vs Jellal panel, was it fully powered? Also credit for @Linali for translating the raw for me and adding to this argument.

 

[Axiomus]

You're are inccorect, Happy said "he's planning to use it all at once"

That means Natsu had access to this power before. And Happy says he saw this power before, it's actually obvious. Did you think Natsu just unlocked this power and never used or it tested it?

Natsu made it very clear that those were Igneels flames.
"Let me show what IGNEELS FLAMES are mode of"

Am I now? Here's the thing, I actually own a physical copy of 54. Here's what he says.

Spoiler: Crunchyroll

And here's what the Edited Manga groups translated it as. The exact same message. So it's undeniable that Happy was referring to the fact Natsu was willing to use Igneel's power so soon against Zeref, thereby proving that he wasn't using it against the Alvarez troops.

Spoiler: MangaSteam

But there's more. Not only do I have access to the physical volumes, but I also have the raws. Here is chapter 434's raw., and the line where he says "This is the flames of the fire dragon king (Igneel)". Notice how 炎竜王 (enryuo) is actual written text and イグニール (Igneel) is only there as subtext? That means when the actual words the character is saying is 炎竜王, which means fire dragon king. When you hear this in the anime it will only say "enryu-o", and you won't even hear Igneel's name. Also, the fact that Natsu uses Igneel's flames should be of no surprise. He has always done so. Dragon Slayers use the same type of power as their parent dragons. That's why Atlas Flame recognizes Natsu's power as Igneel's, and why Zilconis recognizes Wendy's magic as Grandeeneys (and yes if you want scans, I will provide them).

Spoiler: Chapter 434 raws

 

[Kay3795]

Am I now? Here's the thing, I actually own a physical copy of 54. Here's what he says.

Spoiler: Crunchyroll

And here's what the Edited Manga groups translated it as. The exact same message. So it's undeniable that Happy was referring to the fact Natsu was willing to use Igneel's power so soon against Zeref, thereby proving that he wasn't using it against the Alvarez troops.

Spoiler: MangaSteam

But there's more. Not only do I have access to the physical volumes, but I also have the raws. Here is chapter 434's raw., and the line where he says "This is the flames of the fire dragon king (Igneel)". Notice how 炎竜王 (enryuo) is actual written text and イグニール (Igneel) is only there as subtext? That means when the actual words the character is saying is 炎竜王, which means fire dragon king. When you hear this in the anime it will only say "enryu-o", and you won't even hear Igneel's name.

Spoiler: Chapter 434 raws

Also, the fact that Natsu uses Igneel's flames should be of no surprise. He has always done so. Dragon Slayers use the same type of power as their parent dragons. That's why Atlas Flame recognizes Natsu's power as Igneel's, and why Zilconis recognizes Wendy's magic as Grandeeneys (and yes if you want scans, I will provide them).

I have observed that Natsu is absurdly underestimated by some here simply because they are unable to fathom him attaining such degree of power. The OPness could only perpetually increase to absurdity at this point as Natsu is destined to combat the greatest forces in the manga.

As for this match -- & this would be the 3rd time I'm saying this-- Jellal isn't winning it.

 

[MCG_Raven]

Good reply, though I do have a couple of new points, the first being that the seals before Jellal casts GC are way to low to in the air to be GC. Every time Grand Chariot has been cast the seals have always been noticeably high in the air (see Jellal vs Jura and Jellal vs Neinhart), it even looks different here in the next panel, the beams of light come from much higher than where the seals were. In addition, I didn't put my words well in the previous posts, I meant to say that they couldn't move away from the Solid Seal, so sorry for any confusion there.

I don't buy Racer not getting out of there before GC struck either, we saw in a previous panel during the fight that Racer closed the gap between him and Jellal in an immensely fast moment, to the extent that he looks like he teleports to behind Jellal. If Racer can close that gap so quickly than he should have been able to get away from GC easily, yet he doesn't.

Edit: There's only six seals in the Jura vs Jellal panel, was it fully powered? Also credit for @Linali for translating the raw for me and adding to this argument.

Acutally the Scans Axiomus provided prove that "Solid Seal" or the "third dimensional Seal" is really GC. take a look

You see the Scene where Cobra and Racer wonder about the Magic used where in other translations Racer would say "Solid Seal" or "Third dimensional Seal" on the right page. NOW what you see right beforehand is the magic pattern he is talking about which coincidentally is the same pattern that the Grand Chariot uses in the night sky and spell as well. The second picture doesn't represent that properly though so i am sad to say that we have confirmation at hand that Solid Seal is NOT a spell at all.

 

[Woodenstool]

Am I now? Here's the thing, I actually own a physical copy of 54. Here's what he says.

Spoiler: Crunchyroll

And here's what the Edited Manga groups translated it as. The exact same message. So it's undeniable that Happy was referring to the fact Natsu was willing to use Igneel's power so soon against Zeref, thereby proving that he wasn't using it against the Alvarez troops.

Spoiler: MangaSteam

But there's more. Not only do I have access to the physical volumes, but I also have the raws. Here is chapter 434's raw., and the line where he says "This is the flames of the fire dragon king (Igneel)". Notice how 炎竜王 (enryuo) is actual written text and イグニール (Igneel) is only there as subtext? That means when the actual words the character is saying is 炎竜王, which means fire dragon king. When you hear this in the anime it will only say "enryu-o", and you won't even hear Igneel's name. Also, the fact that Natsu uses Igneel's flames should be of no surprise. He has always done so. Dragon Slayers use the same type of power as their parent dragons. That's why Atlas Flame recognizes Natsu's power as Igneel's, and why Zilconis recognizes Wendy's magic as Grandeeneys (and yes if you want scans, I will provide them).

Spoiler: Chapter 434 raws

I really don't care if you have physical copies. Natsu said he used Igneels flames, so he did. Natsu didn't just form that tattoo and never used that power. He obviously tested it.

He used his right arm, and no, Natsh wasn't using FDK spells while using Igneels powers. He was use slapping him with his flames. Get outa of here boy.

 

[Axiomus]

I really don't care if you have physical copies. Natsu said he used Igneels flames, so he did. Natsu didn't just form that tattoo and never used that power. He obviously tested it.

He used his right arm, and no, Natsh wasn't using FDK spells while using Igneels powers. He was use slapping him with his flames. Get outa of here boy.

Natsu said he was using the flames of the fire dragon king (which was Igneel). That doesn't prove he was using Igneel's magical power. It merely proves that Natsu was using flames that would be similar to a fire dragon king's, which is exactally what FDK is. Natsu said he can only use Igneel's magical power once, and that's exactly what he did. He can use FDK spells without using Igneel's power. Natsu is right handed. Of course he would use his right hand to punch. He used his right hand to punch with a non FDK spell as well. He also used his right hand to punch Jacob.

 

[MCG_Raven]

I really don't care if you have physical copies. Natsu said he used Igneels flames, so he did. Natsu didn't just form that tattoo and never used that power. He obviously tested it.

He used his right arm, and no, Natsh wasn't using FDK spells while using Igneels powers. He was use slapping him with his flames. Get outa of here boy.

I am gonna cut your BS short by simply saying this: YOU are clearly ignoring facts like the wording in the japanese version not having Natsu SAY Igneel but this being a footnote for the reader. You are also ignoring the OFFICIAL Translation where the Reminder is even left out because the translators trust us not to be dumb enough to need it as we were told that not THAT long ago... ALL THIS just so you can save your face in front of yourself by pretending any of what you say just now has any merit when it really doesn't. He never used Igneels magic Power which is the stuff he used against Zeref and there is NO denying that.

 

[Jko]

I really don't care if you have physical copies. Natsu said he used Igneels flames, so he did. Natsu didn't just form that tattoo and never used that power. He obviously tested it.

He used his right arm, and no, Natsh wasn't using FDK spells while using Igneels powers. He was use slapping him with his flames. Get outa of here boy.

No, Natsu cannot use Igneel's flames without having Igneel's MP and he's already stated multiple time it's a one time use.

Spoiler

If he could use Igneel's flames on a daily then he pretty much would be curbstomping everyone in this tournament (bar Dimaria and Jacob bcs of hax). Igneel's flames hurt Acnologia and you really think Natsu can actually use them w/o Igneel's MP?

 

[Woodenstool]

No, Natsu cannot use Igneel's flames without having Igneel's MP and he's already stated multiple time it's a one time use.

Spoiler

If he could use Igneel's flames on a daily then he pretty much would be curbstomping everyone in this tournament (bar Dimaria and Jacob bcs of hax). Igneel's flames hurt Acnologia and you really think Natsu can actually use them w/o Igneel's MP?

No, Natsu cannot use Igneel's flames without having Igneel's MP and he's already stated multiple time it's a one time use.

Spoiler

If he could use Igneel's flames on a daily then he pretty much would be curbstomping everyone in this tournament (bar Dimaria and Jacob bcs of hax). Igneel's flames hurt Acnologia and you really think Natsu can actually use them w/o Igneel's MP?

"Igneels flames hurt Acnologia"

Igneels roar didn't do anything, he was completely unphased by that attack.

"No charge time on FDK spells"

Natsu had to charge up demolition fist for a few seconds. And the fact that Natsu has to use it on a stationary person like the God of War or Jacob floating in air unable to move. Jellal can use meteor and run away from it. It doesn't matter how strong Demo fist and it needs to be used on a stationary target. A position that Jellal will never be in.

 

[MCG_Raven]

"Igneels flames hurt Acnologia"

Igneels roar didn't do anything, he was completely unphased by that attack.

"No charge time on FDK spells"

Natsu had to charge up demolition fist for a few seconds. And the fact that Natsu has to use it on a stationary person like the God of War or Jacob floating in air unable to move. Jellal can use meteor and run away from it. It doesn't matter how strong Demo fist and it needs to be used on a stationary target. A position that Jellal will never be in.

please do tell where it is stated that his Demolition fist took him any time to charge up. Because what we see in the Manga against the War God is: Wendy looking up to Natsu. The COMPLETELY charged up fist, Gray reacting to it, again the fist, Lucy reacting, the War God Reacting and Natsu attacking. None of which indicates any Charge time. Also Considering Natsu was well able to use this same attack on Jacob while being in motion himself deconfirms your claim of him only being able to attack stationary targets because that would mean he himself could only be stationary when using it making it impossible to use after being thrown by Makarov. Yet he does so.

 

[Solitrine]

The way I see it, it's a spell that Jellal uses that gives him a certain speed. I really don't see it accelerate, but I can buy what you say to some extent.

DF Natsu jumps to get speed. If he wants to, a large leap can blitz Meteor just like he did. It comes down to how much strength Natsu puts into it. It makes more sense to me that Natsu will have variable speed depending on how he applies his strength. It also makes sense that Natsu's speed isn't constant like Jellal's. But there's no doubt for mine that DF Natsu can easily eclipse Meteor speed over mid range distances.

Meteor doesn't give Jellal a certain constant speed, he can control it. Just the chapter before Natsu goes DF it is stated by Natsu that Jellal can make his meteor faster. I'm pretty sure we have seen Jellal stationary a few times in Meteor as well.

Even if we say Natsu has a speed advantage in DF, the large gap between the ground and the sky means that he won't be able to be blitzed especially now that there is no monologuing or surprise at eating the Etherion that will allow Natsu to blitz Jellal. Natsu can also only travel in straight lines with the 'ground push' which means that he is going to be a sitting duck once he is in the air.

 

[Jko]

"Igneels flames hurt Acnologia"

Igneels roar didn't do anything, he was completely unphased by that attack.

"No charge time on FDK spells"

Natsu had to charge up demolition fist for a few seconds. And the fact that Natsu has to use it on a stationary person like the God of War or Jacob floating in air unable to move. Jellal can use meteor and run away from it. It doesn't matter how strong Demo fist and it needs to be used on a stationary target. A position that Jellal will never be in.

That was Igneel's casual roar which pushed Acnologia way back.

Spoiler

Also Igneel's flames do hurt Acnologia

Spoiler

and he didn't get serious until they went to the stratosphere.

Spoiler

Igneel's flames would smoke anyone in this competition. I'd reckon current Natsu flames are probably equal to or above Atlas Flame.

FDKM Demo-Fist requires zero charge time but his base one yeah I'll give you that. He still has his roar which Jellal ain't out running the AoE.

 

[Dranzer]

In all honesty I don't have an in depth explanation, but Natsu's beat Jellal before (I know that it was because of Etherion) and he can do it again. I understand that Jellal has access to a wide variety of spells with a great deal of strength, but ever since the time-skip I think Natsu has surpassed most if not everyone that is currently fighting for Ishgar in the war.

 

[Boomburst]

"Igneels flames hurt Acnologia"

Igneels roar didn't do anything, he was completely unphased by that attack.

"No charge time on FDK spells"

Natsu had to charge up demolition fist for a few seconds. And the fact that Natsu has to use it on a stationary person like the God of War or Jacob floating in air unable to move. Jellal can use meteor and run away from it. It doesn't matter how strong Demo fist and it needs to be used on a stationary target. A position that Jellal will never be in.

Just because Natsu stood there building up flames for a few seconds doesn't mean that Demo Fist always needs time to charge. When Natsu first used LFD Roar against Hades, he spend a couple of seconds sucking in flames and stuff before unleashing it. Later when he was fighting Max, however, he was able to use it instantaneously. Besides, Natsu probably only stood there for a bit before attacking so he could have time to say stuff about Igneel and his friends and whatnot.

Yea sure Jellal can waste all his mp just running away from Demo Fist but Jellals not gonna win fighting like that either. He can't stay on the defensive forever and the moment he tries to attack Natsu will have an opening.

 

[Brandish μ]

There's no point in arguing with you Natsu fanboys. You all think Demolition fist is limitless and can destroy anything. He could probably break through Acnologias skin right?

Jellal wins, end of story. Well Natsu wins the tourament but facts say otherwise.

And Natsu used Igneels power against the God of war, btw.

Aren't we all just a lot of fanboys or fangirls?

Jellal has less facts backing him than Natsu imo, which is why I vote for Natsu in this fight.

Um, no, Igneel's power was one-time only. Unless you want to credit Natsu's fight with Zeref to Natsu-only, and not Igneels MP... it's one or the other really.

Meteor doesn't give Jellal a certain constant speed, he can control it. Just the chapter before Natsu goes DF it is stated by Natsu that Jellal can make his meteor faster. I'm pretty sure we have seen Jellal stationary a few times in Meteor as well.

Even if we say Natsu has a speed advantage in DF, the large gap between the ground and the sky means that he won't be able to be blitzed especially now that there is no monologuing or surprise at eating the Etherion that will allow Natsu to blitz Jellal. Natsu can also only travel in straight lines with the 'ground push' which means that he is going to be a sitting duck once he is in the air.

You are right about Meteor, but I think it's fairly obvious that Natsu can catch Meteor, as he did.

Yes flying away is the main argument imo that Meteor has an advantage. But like I said to someone else, there's at least as much chance that Natsu can catch Meteor in a short distance before Meteor can run away. The AoE of Natsu's base Iron Fist is the size of a small mountain. I don't think it's as easy as Jellal running away, and I don't believe Jellal is extra-efficient at range either, like he's not ever shown to use GC from more than 100m away.

Essentially, Natsu's going to hit Jellal, and he can hit hard very quickly and repetively. Of course, Jellal could get the win too, but it's less likely on feats atm imo. Neither have outstanding physical feats yet, so I'm relying on the offence that is most likely to do damage quickly.