Final Jellal Fernandes vs Natsu Dragneel

[SirSamuel016]

Yea, he can jump off flat ground to quite a height. The reason why I bring up those rock support things is due to the ALTITUDE. Now why altitude? Because Natsu needs at least a good height which is reachable to Jellal. So if Natsu can catch up to Jellal at the first few seconds of his take off, this will be a much tougher fight. But Jellal is not that dumb. He could fly in any direction and easily evade Natsu. But when he is doing so, he is flying much higher. My point of argument is that those rocks were never ground level so Natsu wouldn't have even reached Jellal if he took off from the ground and needed those rocks to gain enough altitude until he blitzed Jellal. I am all for Natsu being faster than Jellal but he does not have equal maneuvering while airborne like Jellal. His propelling tho kinda amazed me but again he only reaches his opponent when he has a perfect altitude/height required.
Its kinda fun debating with you. These are all my opinions and I easily see Jellal getting airborne (unless there is a wild possibility that Natsu will catch up to him WITHOUT environmental advantage)
Hope we have fun discussing other points. This has been the most evenly matched fight other than Jellal vs Laxus.

Edit;-Sorry I forgot to address you Natsu moving in air point. I agree that Natsu can do it but Jellal's level is much better and hence, I stated that his maneuvering in air is much higher than Natsu's. Plus, its game over once Jellal gets above a certain height like I stated.

Well in the ToH when Natsu literally grabbed Jellal and pushed him through the floor, he and Jellal went through quite a few floors before Jellal broke away and flew back up with Meteor, and yes, while neither of them were ground level, if the rock Natsu had jumped up to before the big jump was at ground level it'd show Natsu being able to close the distance at a very fast pace, a pace which Jellal was unable to even react to until after Natsu had made contact with him and they'd gone back past the floor they were fighting on and even further into the air, where Jellal then kicked Natsu back and continued to go higher. I do get your point that Natsu can't get a boose like the ground while in the air, but what the ToH did show us was Natsu still close a fair distance in the ToH to be able to catch Jellal and hit him before he could even react.

Also while in the air, I should make the point that in this fight, Natsu doesn't need to get right up close to Jellal in the air to hit him, as a roar or Flame Dragon King Roar, especially the latter, have a large AoE so Jellal would still get caught up in it if Natsu fired it off and if Natsu did it in FDKM, imagine just how large the AoE would be, and then think about how powerful it would be. If its at the same kind of power as the Demolition Fist, then Natsu could end the fight there with the roar.

 

[Jellal.S.N]

Well in the ToH when Natsu literally grabbed Jellal and pushed him through the floor, he and Jellal went through quite a few floors before Jellal broke away and flew back up with Meteor, and yes, while neither of them were ground level, if the rock Natsu had jumped up to before the big jump was at ground level it'd show Natsu being able to close the distance at a very fast pace, a pace which Jellal was unable to even react to until after Natsu had made contact with him and they'd gone back past the floor they were fighting on and even further into the air, where Jellal then kicked Natsu back and continued to go higher. I do get your point that Natsu can't get a boose like the ground while in the air, but what the ToH did show us was Natsu still close a fair distance in the ToH to be able to catch Jellal and hit him before he could even react.

Also while in the air, I should make the point that in this fight, Natsu doesn't need to get right up close to Jellal in the air to hit him, as a roar or Flame Dragon King Roar, especially the latter, have a large AoE so Jellal would still get caught up in it if Natsu fired it off and if Natsu did it in FDKM, imagine just how large the AoE would be, and then think about how powerful it would be. If its at the same kind of power as the Demolition Fist, then Natsu could end the fight there with the roar.

No one's saying Natsu can't close the gap as he could be this generation's MJ with his jumping feats. I have to be a hard core Jellal fanboy to refute that . I don't think the roar will be Demo Fist strong(as this will be speculating and this is precisely why I didn't speculate Sema) but yea, it covers a large AoE. Thanks for bringing that up, I thought this will be one sided once Jellal gets airborne. As long as Jellal stays on ground, Natsu has a huge advantage but lets agree on the fact that once Jellal goes airborne, Jellal has a slightly better advantage, not by a whole though. It all depends on how Jellal or Natsu fight. As I stated before, Jellal can strangle people with telekinesis which will effectively reduce the impact of the roar and telekinesis has zero cast time. However, telekinesis ain't beating Natsu, he can get so hot that Jellal might feel discomfort. But it will give enough time for Jellal to space out. I won't even support the slightest fact of Jellal beating Natsu with Darkness magic or any other but just stall him (like the example with telekinesis). Now the advantage is that Siegrain (Jellal's thought projection) can also use it, thus proving as a good defensive and decoy mechanism. Siegrain can hold Natsu down with telekinesis while Jellal gains height. This could be a matter of two seconds but bear in mind that these are awfully matched mages, where even the slightest second matters. I can see Natsu winning if he pulls out a roar or demo fist but I went with Jellal because of his minor but very helpful capabilities like telekinesis(strangles so kinda reduces Natsu's roar's impacts) which could be the building blocks of his victory.

 

[SirSamuel016]

No one's saying Natsu can't close the gap as he could be this generation's MJ with his jumping feats. I have to be a hard core Jellal fanboy to refute that . I don't think the roar will be Demo Fist strong(as this will be speculating and this is precisely why I didn't speculate Sema) but yea, it covers a large AoE. Thanks for bringing that up, I thought this will be one sided once Jellal gets airborne. As long as Jellal stays on ground, Natsu has a huge advantage but lets agree on the fact that once Jellal goes airborne, Jellal has a slightly better advantage, not by a whole though. It all depends on how Jellal or Natsu fight. As I stated before, Jellal can strangle people with telekinesis which will effectively reduce the impact of the roar and telekinesis has zero cast time. However, telekinesis ain't beating Natsu, he can get so hot that Jellal might feel discomfort. But it will give enough time for Jellal to space out. I won't even support the slightest fact of Jellal beating Natsu with Darkness magic or any other but just stall him (like the example with telekinesis). Now the advantage is that Siegrain (Jellal's thought projection) can also use it, thus proving as a good defensive and decoy mechanism. Siegrain can hold Natsu down with telekinesis while Jellal gains height. This could be a matter of two seconds but bear in mind that these are awfully matched mages, where even the slightest second matters. I can see Natsu winning if he pulls out a roar or demo fist but I went with Jellal because of his minor but very helpful capabilities like telekinesis(strangles so kinda reduces Natsu's roar's impacts) which could be the building blocks of his victory.

Has Telekinesis actually been shown to be able to hold people down? Because all I can remember seeing the magic do is move objects around, so I doubt if it would work on a person in the same way due to a lack of evidence of it being able to do so. I doubt using a thoughtform would benefit Jellal that much because at most his thoughtform would literally get taken out in an AoE attack if Natsu used one. Plus, depending on how high Jellal is when he tries this "telekineses", as we saw in the ToH, Natsu might still be able to spring up, flames on the legs included, once the hold is shrugged off by whatever means and catch him. Again, Natsu has attacks with a large AoE so he only needs to get close enough to let one of those go and Jellal would get hit pretty hard due to his somewhat poor durability (I doubt I need to keep bringing Neinhart up now). To add to this, only one of Jellal's charged Grand Chariot's or Sema would do significant damage to Natsu to weaken him by a decent amount, and both of those leave Jellal open to attacks while he's charging it up as he has to be focused on that, especially for Sema as he's got to do those static motions.

 

[Jellal.S.N]

Has Telekinesis actually been shown to be able to hold people down? Because all I can remember seeing the magic do is move objects around, so I doubt if it would work on a person in the same way due to a lack of evidence of it being able to do so. I doubt using a thoughtform would benefit Jellal that much because at most his thoughtform would literally get taken out in an AoE attack if Natsu used one. Plus, depending on how high Jellal is when he tries this "telekineses", as we saw in the ToH, Natsu might still be able to spring up, flames on the legs included, once the hold is shrugged off by whatever means and catch him. Again, Natsu has attacks with a large AoE so he only needs to get close enough to let one of those go and Jellal would get hit pretty hard due to his somewhat poor durability (I doubt I need to keep bringing Neinhart up now). To add to this, only one of Jellal's charged Grand Chariot's or Sema would do significant damage to Natsu to weaken him by a decent amount, and both of those leave Jellal open to attacks while he's charging it up as he has to be focused on that, especially for Sema as he's got to do those static motions.

This is a tough battle to decide really. Yea, telekinesis has killed people. But I am not saying it will kill Natsu as, you know it was used against fodders but as we all know, roar of the fire dragon needs air. Jellal has been shown to kill people by strangling so this does reduce Natsu's roar's impact. Ep 35 to be precise where a kid Jellal is shown strangling a person with telekinesis. You can also see the fatal 'exploding from inside Darkness spell' in that episode. Thoughtform is basically light so it does not need to be "taken out". Yea Natsu can"Take it out" but this all buys Jellal time. Jellal has to use cheap tricks for the first part of the fight and if he doesn't, I would vote Natsu low diff. But knowing Jellal, he has all sorts of cheap and intelligent tricks (like one I stated). Jellal can charge up GC once he reaches a certain height where Natsu's attacks won't reach him. This will take time due to Natsu's large AoE attacks but I think Jellal can pull it. Its a matter of opinion really. But once Jellal gets out of reach for Natsu, I can easily see him winning. He can charge up GC or abyss break and cast it and when Natsu is quite broken down, Sema or Altairis to finish it off(imo). The other reason I feel Jellal can kinda dodge Fire dragon roar or Demo fist (at the correct and certain height of course and obviously) is that there is a difference between attacking an opponent from 100m and 150m (sorry for the retarded comparison but you get the point). Jellal has more reaction time. Precisely why it is relatively easier to evade Fire dragon roar from a farther distance than just standing on the ground. Therefore, this is another way of reducing its impact (other than telekinesis).

 

[Woodenstool]

What does Gravity have do with the fight? Natsu and Jacob were both moving through the air and Natsu used the Flame Dragon King's Demolition Fist whilst moving. You said that Natsu can't use the Demolition fist while moving but that is a clear contradiction to what we saw in the Jacob fight. Therefore, your statement is completely baseless.

I'm taking about while running. Can't you put two and two together? Obviously not, and when he uses that attack, the fire probably brings him closer.

Has Telekinesis actually been shown to be able to hold people down? Because all I can remember seeing the magic do is move objects around, so I doubt if it would work on a person in the same way due to a lack of evidence of it being able to do so. I doubt using a thoughtform would benefit Jellal that much because at most his thoughtform would literally get taken out in an AoE attack if Natsu used one. Plus, depending on how high Jellal is when he tries this "telekineses", as we saw in the ToH, Natsu might still be able to spring up, flames on the legs included, once the hold is shrugged off by whatever means and catch him. Again, Natsu has attacks with a large AoE so he only needs to get close enough to let one of those go and Jellal would get hit pretty hard due to his somewhat poor durability (I doubt I need to keep bringing Neinhart up now). To add to this, only one of Jellal's charged Grand Chariot's or Sema would do significant damage to Natsu to weaken him by a decent amount, and both of those leave Jellal open to attacks while he's charging it up as he has to be focused on that, especially for Sema as he's got to do those static motions.

Natsu roar can one shot Jellal but Cema can't one shot Natsu?

 

[Boomburst]

I'm taking about while running. Can't you put two and two together? Obviously not, and when he uses that attack, the fire probably brings him closer. Lol you just got exposed that you're a Natsu fanboy.

He breaks all logic in your book.

Natsu roar can one shot Jellal but Cema can't one shot Natsu?

Natsu is basically immortal to you right.

Honestly at this point I get the impression that you don't even read the comments you respond to. Nowhere did he state that Natsu could oneshot Jellal with a roar. And Natsu has some amazing durability feats, so it's very likely he wouldn't get oneshot by Sema.

Dude don't blame other people for misunderstanding you when your weird argument about gravity and Natsu being on top of Jacob or something was so unclear and vague. I still don't understand what point you're trying to make with that argument.

 

[Jko]

I'm taking about while running. Can't you put two and two together? Obviously not, and when he uses that attack, the fire probably brings him closer. Lol you just got exposed that you're a Natsu fanboy.

He breaks all logic in your book.

Natsu roar can one shot Jellal but Cema can't one shot Natsu?

Natsu is basically immortal to you right.

Natsu roar actually one-shots above low tier pretty much fodder while Sema couldn't even one shot OS. No way in hell is Natsu going down from Sema. He would shrug it off like chump change. Current Natsu would oneshot pre-ts Crime Sorciere and Oracion Seis at the same time with a no named attack.

Natsu FDKM Demo-fist can be used while moving too he already showed it in his fight against Jacob.

 

[SirSamuel016]

This is a tough battle to decide really. Yea, telekinesis has killed people. But I am not saying it will kill Natsu as, you know it was used against fodders but as we all know, roar of the fire dragon needs air. Jellal has been shown to kill people by strangling so this does reduce Natsu's roar's impact. Ep 35 to be precise where a kid Jellal is shown strangling a person with telekinesis. You can also see the fatal 'exploding from inside Darkness spell' in that episode. Thoughtform is basically light so it does not need to be "taken out". Yea Natsu can"Take it out" but this all buys Jellal time. Jellal has to use cheap tricks for the first part of the fight and if he doesn't, I would vote Natsu low diff. But knowing Jellal, he has all sorts of cheap and intelligent tricks (like one I stated). Jellal can charge up GC once he reaches a certain height where Natsu's attacks won't reach him. This will take time due to Natsu's large AoE attacks but I think Jellal can pull it. Its a matter of opinion really. But once Jellal gets out of reach for Natsu, I can easily see him winning. He can charge up GC or abyss break and cast it and when Natsu is quite broken down, Sema or Altairis to finish it off(imo). The other reason I feel Jellal can kinda dodge Fire dragon roar or Demo fist (at the correct and certain height of course and obviously) is that there is a difference between attacking an opponent from 100m and 150m (sorry for the retarded comparison but you get the point). Jellal has more reaction time. Precisely why it is relatively easier to evade Fire dragon roar from a farther distance than just standing on the ground. Therefore, this is another way of reducing its impact (other than telekinesis).

Again, Jellal would be next to stationary from what we saw him doing against Neinhart on the boat so yeah, if the telekineses from Seigrain can actually manage to hold Natsu for a few second like you suggested, it allows Jellal to get more distance in between the two of them before he charges up Grand Chariot, but at the same time he still needs to be reasonably close to Natsu to land the attack as we haven't seen it have that large a range. So if Jellal goes for the strong GC, he leaves himself somewhat vulnerable to attack (looking at the manga (483) he was charging GC for around a minute), so depending on how long Natsu is held in telekinesis which you estimated to be a few seconds, Jellal still has a fair bit of cast time left for the strong GC and Natsu with the flames on his legs would have enough time to catch up to Jellal and sock him a Flame Dragon King's Demolition Fist. So while I can see what you're saying, its Grand Chariot's range that stops Jellal from being too far away from the other mage here.

I'm taking about while running. Can't you put two and two together? Obviously not, and when he uses that attack, the fire probably brings him closer.


Natsu roar can one shot Jellal but Cema can't one shot Natsu?

It doesn't matter what you were talking about, Natsu was still moving when he used the Demolition Fist against Jacob hence your argument is moot. I don't even think you read my post, so I don't really know why you keep bringing up this point when I've already proved your argument irrelevant.

Now I never said Natsu's FDK Roar would one-shot Jellal, I said it'd leave him in a pretty bad state, especially if Natsu used it in FDKM because an extra-crispy jelly bean wouldn't have that much stamina/durablity left to take much more punishment. And again, we've gone through the Sema thing before. Natsu can destroy it with his attacks, and even if Sema does manage to hit and damage him, its not going to take it out; Natsu's got far too good a durability to be taken out by that.

 

[THE ALMIGHTY CRYBABY]

Natsu roar actually one-shots above low tier pretty much fodder while Sema couldn't even one shot OS. No way in hell is Natsu going down from Sema. He would shrug it off like chump change. Current Natsu would oneshot pre-ts Crime Sorciere and Oracion Seis at the same time with a no named attack.

The point of Tartaros Sema was to defeat OS back then and it did so what are you talking about. Current Jellal would also stomp pretimeskip ( 1 year ago) OS now due to incredible power ups!
Current Natsu could also destroy tartaros sema easily but that comparison is highly inaccurate because you compare pretimeskip Jellal with current Natsu! Ofc Jellal has no chance in winning in that case. We saw that current Jellal's GC has improved a big deal so it's safe to say that current sema and his other spells are also much stronger.Btw tartaros DF Natsu couldn't block or destroy tartaros sema and imho, current Natsu needs to dodge current sema as well.

Tartaros DF Natsu vs current Jellal, people do you really think that a guy on wizard-saint tier is able to defeat someone who is levels above him!!!??? This is ridicilous!

Jellal doesn't have the best enurance but his durability isn't fodder as well otherwise he must be dead right now after the ToH explosion when he fused with etherion. Ofc, Natsu's is higher. Btw it wasn't Ninehart's attack that took down Jellal, it was the surprising hit of the anchor under water when he was holding Kagura. The result of that, he was drowning.

One more thing: If someone attacks in a fight he also kinda risks to be wide open for a counter attack of his enemy! That should also be applied with Natsu. What I mean is if Natsu uses one of his mightier spells and Jellal manages to dodge it and he definetley will be able to do that sometimes cause of his speed, he has an opportunity to strike back!

I honestly do not see a chance for FDKM Natsu ( it's unsure if he's even spriggan tier) win against Jellal!!! Current DF Natsu would be a different story, imo !

 

[SirSamuel016]

Tartaros DF Natsu vs current Jellal, people do you really think that a guy on wizard-saint tier is able to defeat someone who is levels above him!!!??? This is ridicilous!

Is it really ridiculous when ToH DF Natsu, which is weaker than Tartarus DF Natsu, beat Jellal with four punches? Is it really ridiculous? Is it? Jellal has shown no improvement durability wise either, so if Tartarus DF Natsu hits him a few times, spells included, so whats to say Jellal would still be standing?

 

[THE ALMIGHTY CRYBABY]

It seems, you are the only one here who trully believes that Jella hasn't improved since his first appearence and was always on spriggan tier, lol !
Dragons are the strongest race in terms of physical power in ft and using DF means you get some properties of them ( enhanced bodies, claws and so on..) so it's no wonder that DF Natsu outclasses everyone here in close cobmat if they are no dragon slayers at all!
Besides the fairy tail manga has fast pacing. Most of the battles are over in one chapter and it's unusual if there are more for one fight expect the boss battles

 

[Jellal.S.N]

@SirSamuel016

Glad we could agree on that point.
I see where you are getting at GC's range and it is a great argument actually. Since there is nothing in the manga which states he can be "anywhere" to cast it, I assume he has to be perpendicularly above. Then I can see Abyss Break being used (though its accuracy will be slightly lesser). As your post stated, strong GC is not much useful until Natsu is genuinely down (like he was in ToH after GC). That gives him a good cast time but not much...
As I said before, Jellal should use many cheap tricks to bring down Natsu like continuously blasting him further, using telekinesis(like a bitch), making him constantly evade and do stuff with Darkness magic and these don't decrease his MP by much. As you stated, if Natsu unleashes a demo fist, Jellal wouldn't lose but something like his previous gut wound may occur. It will obviously make Jellal much slower and, well Natsu's chances of winning are greater. Unless, Jellal stays airborne for the whole fight. As I stated before, Jellal has been perpendicularly airborne and casted GC (which comes somewhere from the stars or something). All I am talking about is the altitude, cheap tricks and cheap tricks and finally, the altitude where Natsu can't reach him even with his attacks. At that point of time, maybe a charged GC to weaken Natsu. I actually don't see Jellal winning without his cheap tricks. They almost seem like the deciding factor for Jellal. If Natsu catches Jellal before he reaches 'THE HEIGHT', Natsu is in an advantage.
If Jellal reaches "THE HEIGHT" by cheap tricks, Jellal is in an advantage. All Jellal needs to do is to make Natsu go into the "ToH after GC Natsu state". This gives him plenty of a cast time. Remember, this is not a manga where Jellal is going to start rambling with his bs monologue. Spell after spell is needed to take Natsu down due to his immense durability and the only way to do this is to bring him to "THAT STATE".
Seems like telekinesis will be more of a trouble than Sema. As I stated before, Jellal has so many 'building blocks' for his victory. Natsu has raw power. IMO, Jellal takes this but opinions always differ.
This thread is actually fun.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 1, 2016 ---

Current DF Natsu would be a different story, imo

But there is no current DF feats...
Same with Sema and meteor, altairis and abyss break.
If all of these had post skip feats, yea we have to prepare two arenas for these people as one ain't going to hold both of them.

 

[THE ALMIGHTY CRYBABY]

But there is no current DF feats...
Same with Sema and meteor, altairis and abyss break.
If all of these had post skip feats, yea we have to prepare two arenas for these people as one ain't going to hold both of them.

I totally agree here with you but to me, it's unfair to compare current Natsu's feats with pretime Jellal's! If we do that Jellal simply has no chance of winning this!!!! Unfortunately Jellal has only one or at best two chapters for his current feats while Natsu as a main cast of ft has obviously more .

 

[Jellal.S.N]

I totally agree here with you but to me, it's unfair to compare current Natsu's feats with pretime Jellal's! If we do that Jellal simply has no chance of winning this!!!! Unfortunately Jellal has only one or at best two chapters for his current feats while Natsu as a main cast of ft has obviously more .

If u had read my previous posts, you would find that Jellal has quite a chance even with pre skip feats due to his diversity in magic, cheap tricks and telekinesis. I don't see any of them in any disadvantage here, Natsu is now comparable in raw power while Jellal has intelligence.

 

[SirSamuel016]

@SirSamuel016

Glad we could agree on that point.
I see where you are getting at GC's range and it is a great argument actually. Since there is nothing in the manga which states he can be "anywhere" to cast it, I assume he has to be perpendicularly above. Then I can see Abyss Break being used (though its accuracy will be slightly lesser). As your post stated, strong GC is not much useful until Natsu is genuinely down (like he was in ToH after GC). That gives him a good cast time but not much...
As I said before, Jellal should use many cheap tricks to bring down Natsu like continuously blasting him further, using telekinesis(like a bitch), making him constantly evade and do stuff with Darkness magic and these don't decrease his MP by much. As you stated, if Natsu unleashes a demo fist, Jellal wouldn't lose but something like his previous gut wound may occur. It will obviously make Jellal much slower and, well Natsu's chances of winning are greater. Unless, Jellal stays airborne for the whole fight. As I stated before, Jellal has been perpendicularly airborne and casted GC (which comes somewhere from the stars or something). All I am talking about is the altitude, cheap tricks and cheap tricks and finally, the altitude where Natsu can't reach him even with his attacks. At that point of time, maybe a charged GC to weaken Natsu. I actually don't see Jellal winning without his cheap tricks. They almost seem like the deciding factor for Jellal. If Natsu catches Jellal before he reaches 'THE HEIGHT', Natsu is in an advantage.
If Jellal reaches "THE HEIGHT" by cheap tricks, Jellal is in an advantage. All Jellal needs to do is to make Natsu go into the "ToH after GC Natsu state". This gives him plenty of a cast time. Remember, this is not a manga where Jellal is going to start rambling with his bs monologue. Spell after spell is needed to take Natsu down due to his immense durability and the only way to do this is to bring him to "THAT STATE".
Seems like telekinesis will be more of a trouble than Sema. As I stated before, Jellal has so many 'building blocks' for his victory. Natsu has raw power. IMO, Jellal takes this but opinions always differ.
This thread is actually fun.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 1, 2016 ---

But there is no current DF feats...
Same with Sema and meteor, altairis and abyss break.
If all of these had post skip feats, yea we have to prepare two arenas for these people as one ain't going to hold both of them.

When Jellal has cast Grand Chariot before, he's either been above or in-front of his opponent (in general), and seeing that he hasn't been able to put too much distance between him and the opponent, so yeah I definitely thing Grand Chariot's range is a killer to Jellal being able to be far away from his opponents when he uses it.

I should note that Jellal really has to be airborne for any part of the fight where Natsu is in FDKM as he'll be burned by the sheer heat of the mode (like Jacob was), so if he was to attack Natsu whilst he was in that mode he has to use ranged attacks or risk the burn damage get in close enough for something like a Grand Chariot like he used against the OS, which even though it has a faster cast time, could well put Jellal in the range for Natsu to spring up and land an attack on him. And unlike the roar, I do think there is a possibility that the Demolition Fist could take Jellal out, mainly due to Jellal's durability.

Apart from energy blasts and the fast, weaker Grand Chariot, all of Jellal's spells have a charge/cast time which leaves Jellal open to being attacked, and I doubt that Jellal will get far in the fight just with that magic. Adding to that point that could avoid the energy blasts and close the distance to Jellal again puts Jellal in a bad place as he's vulnerable to attack, and even an AoE attack like the Flame Dragon King's Roar would do a lot of damage here. As you said, Jellal could use Telekinesis to try and have Natsu choke himself, but even if Natsu's air is restricted a bit he should still be able to let off a pretty big attack, and I doubt that the thoughtform that would be controlling the telekineses would actually hamper Natsu that much. You've put the timestamp on the control to a few seconds, so holding him to that still doesn't put Jellal far enough away to be safe of any possible attack from Natsu, and if he were to attack he'd still need to be reasonably close to Natsu unless he's going to try and go for chip damage with the energy blasts which Natsu could probably dodge or just tear through with an attack. As soon as Natsu is out of the telekinesis hold, for Jellal to be doing decent damage to Natsu he has to be somewhat close, and Natsu would be able to close that distance at a fast pace from what we've seen and possibly get an attack in, directly physical or AoE. and either way it'd deal some mean damage.

Just a thought here but whats to say Natsu couldn't just burn the thoughtform away with the intense heat from FDKM? If he actually concentrated on putting more heat out like he did when he burnt Zeref's magic (mind you he did use Igneel's magic power at the time), then he could well be able to burn the thoughtform, which is magic, away. It could be a way to stop one of Jellal's cheap tricks and have him thinking it wouldn't work again, hence he wouldn't try it again. After all, I don't think Natsu is given enough credit when it comes to his intelligence battle-wise. Its where he excels, and he's shown he can think about what he does before, so I wouldn't put it past Natsu to psyche Jellal out like that by burning his magic if the opportunity presented itself.

 

[Jellal.S.N]

When Jellal has cast Grand Chariot before, he's either been above or in-front of his opponent (in general), and seeing that he hasn't been able to put too much distance between him and the opponent, so yeah I definitely thing Grand Chariot's range is a killer to Jellal being able to be far away from his opponents when he uses it.

I should note that Jellal really has to be airborne for any part of the fight where Natsu is in FDKM as he'll be burned by the sheer heat of the mode (like Jacob was), so if he was to attack Natsu whilst he was in that mode he has to use ranged attacks or risk the burn damage get in close enough for something like a Grand Chariot like he used against the OS, which even though it has a faster cast time, could well put Jellal in the range for Natsu to spring up and land an attack on him. And unlike the roar, I do think there is a possibility that the Demolition Fist could take Jellal out, mainly due to Jellal's durability.

Apart from energy blasts and the fast, weaker Grand Chariot, all of Jellal's spells have a charge/cast time which leaves Jellal open to being attacked, and I doubt that Jellal will get far in the fight just with that magic. Adding to that point that could avoid the energy blasts and close the distance to Jellal again puts Jellal in a bad place as he's vulnerable to attack, and even an AoE attack like the Flame Dragon King's Roar would do a lot of damage here. As you said, Jellal could use Telekinesis to try and have Natsu choke himself, but even if Natsu's air is restricted a bit he should still be able to let off a pretty big attack, and I doubt that the thoughtform that would be controlling the telekineses would actually hamper Natsu that much. You've put the timestamp on the control to a few seconds, so holding him to that still doesn't put Jellal far enough away to be safe of any possible attack from Natsu, and if he were to attack he'd still need to be reasonably close to Natsu unless he's going to try and go for chip damage with the energy blasts which Natsu could probably dodge or just tear through with an attack. As soon as Natsu is out of the telekinesis hold, for Jellal to be doing decent damage to Natsu he has to be somewhat close, and Natsu would be able to close that distance at a fast pace from what we've seen and possibly get an attack in, directly physical or AoE. and either way it'd deal some mean damage.

Just a thought here but whats to say Natsu couldn't just burn the thoughtform away with the intense heat from FDKM? If he actually concentrated on putting more heat out like he did when he burnt Zeref's magic (mind you he did use Igneel's magic power at the time), then he could well be able to burn the thoughtform, which is magic, away. It could be a way to stop one of Jellal's cheap tricks and have him thinking it wouldn't work again, hence he wouldn't try it again. After all, I don't think Natsu is given enough credit when it comes to his intelligence battle-wise. Its where he excels, and he's shown he can think about what he does before, so I wouldn't put it past Natsu to psyche Jellal out like that by burning his magic if the opportunity presented itself.

Great post, yet again. I 100% agree Natsu can "take out" Jellal's thought form but its just a projection hence I stated it doesn't need "Taking out". You can't actually "attack it". When I mention THE HEIGHT, it is when whatever Natsu does, he cannot reach Jellal including spells. I think we have a small misunderstanding there. How much ever Natsu jumps, his max jump is the same and that plus his roar reaches a certain height. THE HEIGHT is above that in what I stated.
I know its quite a mad distance but Jellal can pull it off. You asked if Natsu can burn Jellal's thought projection but as the name suggests, it is a projection which cannot be harmed. The only way to stop its telekinesis is to harm the user himself. Precisely why I stated Natsu has to charge up and raise the temperature such that Jelal will feel enough discomfort to finally stop using his thought projection but this will take time by which Jellal can reach THE HEIGHT provided he plays more cheap tricks (I don't want to list them but you pretty much know it by now)
As for Natsu's roar, strangling means he cannot release the flames. Therefore, I stated that Natsu should cause enough discomfort to Jellal such that he stops using his thought projection which will take some time as Jellal is gaining altitude every second.
And yes, I totally agree Natsu has battle intelligence but not at the level of Jellal's imo.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Great post, yet again. I 100% agree Natsu can "take out" Jellal's thought form but its just a projection hence I stated it doesn't need "Taking out". You can't actually "attack it". When I mention THE HEIGHT, it is when whatever Natsu does, he cannot reach Jellal including spells. I think we have a small misunderstanding there. How much ever Natsu jumps, his max jump is the same and that plus his roar reaches a certain height. THE HEIGHT is above that in what I stated.
I know its quite a mad distance but Jellal can pull it off. You asked if Natsu can burn Jellal's thought projection but as the name suggests, it is a projection which cannot be harmed. The only way to stop its telekinesis is to harm the user himself. Precisely why I stated Natsu has to charge up and raise the temperature such that Jelal will feel enough discomfort to finally stop using his thought projection but this will take time by which Jellal can reach THE HEIGHT provided he plays more cheap tricks (I don't want to list them but you pretty much know it by now)
As for Natsu's roar, strangling means he cannot release the flames. Therefore, I stated that Natsu should cause enough discomfort to Jellal such that he stops using his thought projection which will take some time as Jellal is gaining altitude every second.
And yes, I totally agree Natsu has battle intelligence but not at the level of Jellal's imo.

Again, I don't think Jellal can rely on the telekinesis the whole battle, once Natsu destroys the thoughtform controlling it the first time it could psyche Jellal out from trying it again soon. Plus, I should note that if Jellal does go to that height, he has no possible attacks he can cast from there that would hit that well, and if he tried something like Sema up there, Natsu could well use his speed to avoid it, or again, he can just destroy it with one of his powerful spells that I've noted before. I doubt Jellal can keep dropping Sema's all day, he'd have to come down sooner or later to try something else. So I do think we're starting to go around in circles here, but again, we haven't seen a limit to how high Natsu could propel himself with flames on his legs, but I do agree that there would be a height quite high up he wouldn't reach, but again Jellal has no attacks to hit Natsu with from up there, and dropping a Sema that high would give Natsu the opportunity to see it coming and dodge. Its therefore a stalemate at this point, and if anything, Jellal is going to have to be the one who comes down to attack Natsu eventually with no actual attacks to hit Natsu from that range and visa-versa if Jellal is truly at that high a height. Natsu might possibly be able to get the height with a roar, seeing he's used a roar that more than spanned the entire length of Tenroujima in the past, but apart from that with Jellal at that height, its a stalemate and neither have anything effective they can do to each other at that distance. Whether you're trying to go for a stalemate or not here is unseen, but Jellal can't use Meteor forever. If he plans to just fly around he'll eventually run out of magic and Natsu can just clobber him then.

As for your strangling point, unless he's covering Natsu's mouth and nose kind of strangling Natsu can still release flames, and the air intake isn't too big an issue as we usually don't see Natsu have too big a breath before using a roar. Hence, Natsu could still get one off unless you mean strangulation via covering the airways and not just choking via the throat, in which case Natsu could try and just breathe some fire to move his hands off the mouth and then get some air in, but again you said that the thoughtform can't hold the telekinesis for long so I'll hold you to those few seconds you specified previously.

 

[Jellal.S.N]

Again, I don't think Jellal can rely on the telekinesis the whole battle, once Natsu destroys the thoughtform controlling it the first time it could psyche Jellal out from trying it again soon. Plus, I should note that if Jellal does go to that height, he has no possible attacks he can cast from there that would hit that well, and if he tried something like Sema up there, Natsu could well use his speed to avoid it, or again, he can just destroy it with one of his powerful spells that I've noted before. I doubt Jellal can keep dropping Sema's all day, he'd have to come down sooner or later to try something else. So I do think we're starting to go around in circles here, but again, we haven't seen a limit to how high Natsu could propel himself with flames on his legs, but I do agree that there would be a height quite high up he wouldn't reach, but again Jellal has no attacks to hit Natsu with from up there, and dropping a Sema that high would give Natsu the opportunity to see it coming and dodge. Its therefore a stalemate at this point, and if anything, Jellal is going to have to be the one who comes down to attack Natsu eventually with no actual attacks to hit Natsu from that range and visa-versa if Jellal is truly at that high a height. Natsu might possibly be able to get the height with a roar, seeing he's used a roar that more than spanned the entire length of Tenroujima in the past, but apart from that with Jellal at that height, its a stalemate and neither have anything effective they can do to each other at that distance. Whether you're trying to go for a stalemate or not here is unseen, but Jellal can't use Meteor forever. If he plans to just fly around he'll eventually run out of magic and Natsu can just clobber him then.

As for your strangling point, unless he's covering Natsu's mouth and nose kind of strangling Natsu can still release flames, and the air intake isn't too big an issue as we usually don't see Natsu have too big a breath before using a roar. Hence, Natsu could still get one off unless you mean strangulation via covering the airways and not just choking via the throat, in which case Natsu could try and just breathe some fire to move his hands off the mouth and then get some air in, but again you said that the thoughtform can't hold the telekinesis for long so I'll hold you to those few seconds you specified previously.

I think you misunderstood my point? The thought form can hold Natsu all day until and unless Natsu attacks the user. You are right about the stalemate part though. So lets say Jellal flies up to near ToH level, so that his Abyss break or GC can still be cast and Natsu's roar can still impact Jellal just to make sure stalemate does not occur. I kinda didn't get your strangulation point but I feel even if Natsu casts the roar, its impact is reduced due to strangling. But it will still go and if Jellal does not avoid it, then he will be hurt but I can see him avoiding due to the reduced AoE.
Many have thought projections actually but only Jellal's has shown the power to demonstrate magic with it. Its just a psychic form which is intangible. They have no physical state and they can be created in distances much further away as Jellal demonstrated.
Lol, this will be the twin jellal bros versing Natsu :P
We could also take self destruction to consideration as Jellal can cast it from a certain distance. So thought projection Jellal holds Natsu while normal Jellal casts Self destruction spell. It is pretty much over once the seal is completed tho.
This is still a possible theory which can be proven wrong by anyone else.
The telekinesis spell also has the power to blast enemies away and move them in desired directions with the mere movement of Jellal's hands. It is quite a strong spell imo.

 

[SirSamuel016]

I think you misunderstood my point? The thought form can hold Natsu all day until and unless Natsu attacks the user. You are right about the stalemate part though. So lets say Jellal flies up to near ToH level, so that his Abyss break or GC can still be cast and Natsu's roar can still impact Jellal just to make sure stalemate does not occur. I kinda didn't get your strangulation point but I feel even if Natsu casts the roar, its impact is reduced due to strangling. But it will still go and if Jellal does not avoid it, then he will be hurt but I can see him avoiding due to the reduced AoE.
Many have thought projections actually but only Jellal's has shown the power to demonstrate magic with it. Its just a psychic form which is intangible. They have no physical state and they can be created in distances much further away as Jellal demonstrated.
Lol, this will be the twin jellal bros versing Natsu :P
We could also take self destruction to consideration as Jellal can cast it from a certain distance. So thought projection Jellal holds Natsu while normal Jellal casts Self destruction spell. It is pretty much over once the seal is completed tho.
This is still a possible theory which can be proven wrong by anyone else.
The telekinesis spell also has the power to blast enemies away and move them in desired directions with the mere movement of Jellal's hands. It is quite a strong spell imo.

Self-Destruction seal on Natsu? No problem, he can burn it off with his magic like he did Sting's White Dragon's Stigmata in the GMG.
Again, Natsu's body heat from FDKM could still get rid of the thoughtform with the heat and probably still have Jellal feeling it, just not as much as what Jacob was as he'd be further away, although on that note Jellal would still be a little pained depending on the radius of the intense heat.

I do get what you're getting at with the strangulation, but again as you said it can't be held for long (you said it could only be held for a few seconds via telekinesis) so once Natsu is free of it, he can literally move around again and avoid the attack if the need be, or fire back with the Flame Dragon King's Roar, which comes out very quickly and would hit Jellal, leaving him quite worse for wear. Depending on how fast Jellal can catch himself and keep in flying after reeling back from the attack a bit, the opportunity might present itself for Natsu to spring up and hit him a few times, physical punches or a spell or two (including the Demolition Fist) and Jellal would struggle to get out of that with Natsu's speed.

At the end of the day, any thoughtform Jellal creates won't be doing much as it is essentially magic, and Natsu has shown previously he can burn magic away, so if the need be I have no doubt Natsu could burn Jellal's thoughtform away. Would that give Jellal an opportunity to attack Natsu? Yes. Would it give Jellal the opportunity to attack Natsu with one of his stronger spells? No.

While I do appreciate you using logic with your arguments which are pretty sound, I still think that at the end of the day, Jellal can't be on defense forever and Natsu has a check for pretty much everything Jellal can do, either by limiting what Jellal can use against him or forcing him to be direct and leaving Jellal open to attack, and from what we've seen from Jellal's durability, he can't stand too many powerful attacks, so again it really is Game, Set and Match with Natsu picking up the win here.

 

[Jellal.S.N]

Self-Destruction seal on Natsu? No problem, he can burn it off with his magic like he did Sting's White Dragon's Stigmata in the GMG.
Again, Natsu's body heat from FDKM could still get rid of the thoughtform with the heat and probably still have Jellal feeling it, just not as much as what Jacob was as he'd be further away, although on that note Jellal would still be a little pained depending on the radius of the intense heat.

I do get what you're getting at with the strangulation, but again as you said it can't be held for long (you said it could only be held for a few seconds via telekinesis) so once Natsu is free of it, he can literally move around again and avoid the attack if the need be, or fire back with the Flame Dragon King's Roar, which comes out very quickly and would hit Jellal, leaving him quite worse for wear. Depending on how fast Jellal can catch himself and keep in flying after reeling back from the attack a bit, the opportunity might present itself for Natsu to spring up and hit him a few times, physical punches or a spell or two (including the Demolition Fist) and Jellal would struggle to get out of that with Natsu's speed.

At the end of the day, any thoughtform Jellal creates won't be doing much as it is essentially magic, and Natsu has shown previously he can burn magic away, so if the need be I have no doubt Natsu could burn Jellal's thoughtform away. Would that give Jellal an opportunity to attack Natsu? Yes. Would it give Jellal the opportunity to attack Natsu with one of his stronger spells? No.

While I do appreciate you using logic with your arguments which are pretty sound, I still think that at the end of the day, Jellal can't be on defense forever and Natsu has a check for pretty much everything Jellal can do, either by limiting what Jellal can use against him or forcing him to be direct and leaving Jellal open to attack, and from what we've seen from Jellal's durability, he can't stand too many powerful attacks, so again it really is Game, Set and Match with Natsu picking up the win here.

Yea, I kinda forgot about Natsu burning magic. I think you misunderstand thought projections. Take a projector for example (like a presentation). If you take a hammer and swing at the projections, you go right through as it is intangible just like thought projections. I was wrong about Natsu burning the thought projection and I apologize. Now swing that hammer at the laptop (which is the user), the projection disappears. Same with thought projections. They cannot be harmed by magic and Jellal is the only one shown capable of using magic with his Thought projections. It is impossible for Natsu to beat it without harming its user. Hope the example was at least comparable?
But when Natsu is held by the thought projection, Jellal can't cast Sema for shit with half of his power. Nor is he casting Altairis as we know the spell is known to affect light and shadows, disrupting his thought form. I think a not much charged GC but one that can still cause significant damage can be casted imo. I feel Jellal could cast abyss break but did not include as then, I will be speculating but that GC I mentioned? He can surely cast it.
There is a reason thought projections are known as intangible... And, they can be used from a long distance too