I guess it depends on perspective. IMO, the Erza that fought Kagura was not Tenrou Erza, she was already GMG Erza. When she activated SO I understood she gained the ability to reequip Nakagami armor, but I didn't 'feel' there was a powerup going on there (in terms of cqc, speed, durability, etc., ONLY in MP that allowed her to 'summon' that armor). Although you can consider otherwise.
But SO notwithstanding Erza did not improve when she entered the GMG. How could she be stronger then she was on Tenrou and how could the difference be significant even if she had? It was explicitly shown that Erza and everyone who went to party with the CSK did not get ANY training done, hence the need for the SO power-up. Erza as she was during GMG (up until the Minerva final battle) WAS as strong as she was on Tenrou, unless you have some proof of someone saying she seems stronger prior to the SO activation, I simply cannot see how you can think otherwise. Please do explain to me how you believe she got stronger.
Increase in MP has shown to increase stats. MP doesn't just fuel magic, it plays a fairly big part in ones physical stats.
I'd say above. I mean, Kagura had the upper hand against pre SO GMG Erza. Whether you consider that erza > or = Tenrou Erza, Kagura was still wiping the floor with her. She was faster, and more deadly.
But she wasn't. Benizakura has always shown to be Erzas trump card, once she used it she essentially won. Just like every other fight she has been in. Kagura defeating every armour Pre-Benizakura just means that she is stronger then a Non-full powered Tenrou Erza. Ikaruga and Azuma are on the same boat as Kagura.
I'd give Kagura's gravity magic some credit here. She can probably change her weight to float, or change the gravity direction so that the water goes up and she's released from it. She can cut through Torafusa for sure, especially with his sword unseathed (as it cut through Adamantine armor) so I'd say she only needs one proper slash.
Make herself lighter? That only works in favour of Torafusa when he smashes her at full force. Her mastery with gravity magic is not at the level where you could give it the benefit of the doubt over Torafusas manipulation of water, she used it once in an insignificant battle. As for whether she could cut him or not, she could, but a cut isn't going to KO Torafusa and the odds of her landing her attack is pretty damn slim considering Torafusas insane speed in water and her movement speed being significantly worse.
Minerva's got spatial magic and she can summon these god-like figures and do pretty awesome nukes for a pre-ts character. Is Torafusa's durability below Erza's? if that's the case then she might pull off a win, otherwise I guess she won't be so lucky.
Torafusas base EF form durability is likely higher then Erzas given that he no-sold an ISD roar. His augmented durability is unquestionably higher then Erzas. Its probably almost as high as her durability with Adamantine armour, if not just as high. Or maybe even a little higher. Gajeel downright broke his iron arm punching him in that state.
Some perspectives can be taken on that topic. NLF or no NLF. NLF means you're going to claim Brandish, Dimaria or Jacob are going to kill Igneel empowered Natsu with their haxes, some faster than others. Dimaria, for example, is gonna kill him before he even notices. Brandish probably as well, by shrinking a vital organ to the point it causes his death. Jacob, by sending him to an alternate dimension that he masters.
Using the NLF is fallacious, its no different then using any other fallacy aka it makes for a terrible argument. I understand that DiMaria has massive power with the NLF (people think she actually manipulates real time, rather then her magic serving as a time replacer within a certain radius just like every other magic in the manga) but I never understood the NLF hype for Jacob and Brandish. The former can't use transport instantly, and even when he claps his hands there is a period of time before it actually sends everyone in the area to his dimension. Plenty of time there for an opponent to make a move, including just outright dodging/escaping the AoE which isn't that big. Supposing it actually even works on them. As for Brandish, I don't get where people get this idea that she could just shrink any organ on a whim, I'm pretty sure it would take more precision to do that then simply shrinking someones entire body or an object.
In anycase she admitted inferiority herself, its hardly debatable.
Just because she has not used them doesn't mean she does not have them, she outright states that she has consumed ALL the demon souls on Tartarus, she did not need to cross-paths with them on-panel, she just went around cleaning up souls. Refusing to acknowledge that she has them is literally going against canon itself. And yes it does, she is literally turning into them, she has their power. I do not recall Plutogrim ever busting a city or anything of the like, nor do I recall Alegria Mirajane using any nukes. Nor do I recall Wahl fodder countering Macro, in fact I specifically recall her commanding them to go to sleep and them doing so. Gonna have to ask you to support all three of these claims. Zeref destroyed Mards physical body, but he still has a soul (like the other demons), some of his themes are even prevalent in Miras Alegria design.
It a severally injured Erza her Nakagami armour to take Minerva out. FYI the Erza that Kagura was fighting was an Erza who had not activated her second origin yet, she did so against Minerva to use her Nagakami armour. In other words, the Erza that Kyouka fought was stronger then the one that Kagura fought, and Kyouka stalemated Erza whereas Erza decisively won once she got her resolve back on track. Kyouka is a hefty amount above both Kagura and Minerva. She actually defeated the latter when she was still a part of Succubus Eye.
Kyouka doesn't specialize in raw power, she has an insane curse ability. Kagura is all about raw power. The fact that Kagura is superior to Kyouka in that regard does not surprise me at all, that doesn't make her stronger though. In fact she is most certainly weaker.
Clearly it is shown the town being destroyed and even stated. Clearly it is shown and stated about Whal fodder ignoring Mirajane Sehlia command.
Marde Geer book is clearly destroyed and with that his soul. Mirajane never came across Marde Geer to take him over. When his book was destroyed so was his soul.
Clearly it is shown the town being destroyed and even stated. Clearly it is shown and stated about Whal fodder ignoring Mirajane Sehlia command.
Marde Geer book is clearly destroyed and with that his soul. Mirajane never came across Marde Geer to take him over. When his book was destroyed so was his soul.
Mira's Macro was negated by Wahl. His fodder didn't ignore it.
Alegria was also destroyed into pieces so there's a possibility she can takeover demon just by a reminisce of their Curse. She did say she absorbed all of Tartarus demons.
Now for the people who think Ig-Natsu is stronger then Zeref please read the chapter again. Zeref wasn't remotely trying in his fight against Natsu. The dude did three fodder attacks on Natsu and was going to let him destroy him. He was even crying in the battle and instantly regenerated right after the fight. He wasn't fatigued or hurt in the least. A trying Zeref would mopped the floor with Ig-Natsu let alone a serious one.
Mira's Macro was negated by Wahl. His fodder didn't ignore it.
Alegria was also destroyed into pieces so there's a possibility she can takeover demon just by a reminisce of their Curse. She did say she absorbed all of Tartarus demons.
Now for the people who think Ig-Natsu is stronger then Zeref please read the chapter again. Zeref wasn't remotely trying in his fight against Natsu. The dude did three fodder attacks on Natsu and was going to let him destroy him. He was even crying in the battle and instantly regenerated right after the fight. He wasn't fatigued or hurt in the least. A trying Zeref would mopped the floor with Ig-Natsu let alone a serious one.
1. Nowhere was it ever stated that Whal negated her Macro. That is what fans said, it was never stated in the Manga. Unless you can provide a panel where it is stated.
2. Marde Geer was completely wiped from existence once his book was destroyed. Plutogrim was still around just in crumbles.
IT IS NOT HYPE IT IS A STATMENT. Actually, give a good counter argument or don't even bother replying at all. As for the multiple blows they all had some sort of scuffs before, so no, it doesn't count. Natsu took some blows from a non- serious Laxus, the second Laxus got serious Natsu couldn't hang with him while Laxus was serious against Jura from the start. That blow wasn't impressive, the AoE of the blow (which I know that's the only reason you find the move impressive) was MCB+, not impressive and nothing Jura couldn't take.
Jura said fine but Orga is stupid for thinking Jura would agree and his guard was still up hence no use of the "?" or the "!". I can prove you wrong and I have, Jupiter wouldn't drop Laxus at all if you can only 'that's my opinion you' clearly have no good argument left.
Laxus should have comparable durability to Titan Makarov, that left a burn mark on Makarov's hand if Laxus took that he'd be left with some burns that's not as nearly as bad as what happened to Erza. While that Makarov isn't BoS Makarov. Erza has a strong magic for defense and Laxus doesn't? So, Laxus has much higher natrual durability and endruance than Erza so that's irrelevant.
Fairy Law is a sign of power, Bluenote clearly says it himself, if you have a powerful magic but the user is a scrub the magic itself is shit. Fairy Law gives Laxus the power to drop a WS tier opponent in one hit, something Erza didn't have. It's funny you bring up Cana, the very reason Bluenote wasn't beaten by Fairy Law was because it was Cana using it. So yeah Laxus was on Makarov's level BoS.
Did you even read my post? Natsu was struggling against Aria because ARIA USES WIND MAGIC WHICH IS A POOR MATCHUP FOR NATSU. You bring up Aria but Jose literally said Gajeel is stronger than Aria and Natsu beat Gajeel. As for him and Gray being equals DON'T BE SUCH A HYPOCRITE. DON'T PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH STATEMENTS YOU WANT TO USE, YOU WANT TO IGNORE BOTH MIRA'S AND ERZA'S STATMENT BUT CHOOSE TO USE THIS ONE EVEN THOUGH IT WAS NEVER STATED THAT NATSU AND GRAY WERE EQUAL. As for Jose he himself wasn't serious against Erza when they fought he was untouched while Era was panting her ass off exhausted and the second he got serious Erza was about to lose. Don't even know why you're bringing OS into this, 140 chapters into the series is no longer BoS. As for Gajeel and Lilly, Gajeel himself wasn't serious and the second he got serious he destroyed Lilly's sword off the bat.
Oh yeah, Laxus beat Jura which puts him over GMG Mira + pre SO Erza
Don't even try and say hype and portrayal when you've been ignoring it this whole time. If you could fully comprehend hype and portrayal we wouldn't be doing this right now. You can recover from being incapacitated, both Natsu and Gajeel couldn't move and Gajeel himself didn't even move in front of the Halbred in order to save Natsu he made himself a lightning rod.
Erza was a poor matchup for Ajeel (because she had access to wind and water) but the gap in power was too large for the matchup to matter, all you proved was the gap between Erza and Ajeel was larger than the one between Natsu and Aria.
Aria is weaker than Gajeel who lost to Natsu handily at full power.
An injured FT team altogether if still way above a fresh Erza. Portrayal puts Erza nowhere near Zero, especially since he done decent against DF Natsu who is wayy above Erza.
Mashima has made the gap clear as day but you still can't see it.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
I've given evdience for my claims time and time again and you've NEVER ONCE PROVED ME WRONG. A no limits fallacy isn't an opinion based thing, something is either one or not. Stop making excuses because you can't even muster up a decent reply.
What counter argument do you want?
hypes have been proven wrong, especially if the hype is for fairy tail enemies.
And Mira made that statement before jura even showed anything
I mean she said it before jura even fought jellal.
Whatever punches he threw at Jura were relatively below his lightening dragon roar against natsu and gajeel.
Beside, his roar wasn't that strong. Natsu mentioned that he was paralyzed, probably from the effect of lightening. Rather than the brute strength
And both literally got up in less than minute. Natsu was running towards him before he even activated fairy law.
Jura was surprised by the power of it. Mavis acted like it was biggest thing that happened that day.
Basically it had hype behind it only. Kinda like Jura fugiti attack.
Lily and gajeel had similar mindset. they seems on par.
No its not sign of power. If erza learned it, can you prove fairy law from her would be different
Cana fairy glitter worked just like laxus fairy law. Amateur casters both of them.
No use of ! ?
He didn't see him coming
How is his guard up.
How did you prove me wrong again?
By saying laxus durability is comparable to markarov. With this statement coming directly out of your ass.
So no.
Laxus has higher endurance than erza !!
What are you smoking? Whatever it is, you should share.
Yeah I tend to believe in feat over hype. Sooo
Yeah I kinda mentioned it in my post
Asking you how weak was aria then. Since he was beating crap out of natsu while blind.
But you kinda ignored
I am not hypocrite, but you are. You ignore many other statements for literally one statement.
Gray being natsu equal portrayal is like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laxus portrayal of being top tier
Hell erza being far stronger than natsu portrayal is like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0 >>>>>> laxus being stronger than erza portrayal
But if you don't believe it, that's why I actually brought so many things to the table.
Unlike you who tried to compare wrecked erza to full fresh laxus
And with one hype
Yet José removed everyone else from battle. Erza lasted throughout.
OS arc happened right after fighting festival arc. So yeah, that is the best portrayal of erza >>> natsu
Unfortunately laxes nor Jura has such portrayal to compare them to erza.
Of course you don't need feats anyway sooo
Unfortunately for you erza performed better against ajeel, as compared to natsu against aria. And aria wasn't even going all out.
Injured team might be above laxus but I don't make assumption like you do without clearly stating it. But I would ask you again stop producing things out of your ass and acting as if they are facts.
So blinded aria who was beating crap out of natsu who is weaker than full powered aria and apparently full powered aria is still weaker than natsu.
Wow that some weakness for air natsu has
I bet you think gmg Wendy can beat up GMG natsu too. What am I saying, since that doesn't prove any point for you. You don't assume anything there
Actually zero hype for erza is quite similar to Mira plus erza hype for jura
Jura = Mira + erza (hype)
Mira knows nothing of jury other than his ws title thing, she knows little bit about erza and every thing ahout herself
Jura loses to laxus
You go like laxus = Mira plus erza
Erza = zero (hype)
Jellal knows nothing about zero other than he being OS master, he know somewhat about how impressive erza is
Zero loses df natsu
Conclusion you should come to erza = df natsu
But instead you come to erza <<df natsu
You have yet to show how Jura is Mira + erza
And you keep on assuming things out of nowhere
Laxus endurance and durability being one now. And how weak aria was
Please give actual proof. If you already have please just copy them again and make it like you aren't assuming anything.
Yeah this huge difference was shown when laxus got in a stalemated with erza. I mean the author could show the gap there then we wont have to assume shit.
Apparently he decided that only way we can say laxus is that strong, is starting with an assumption that laxus is that strong.
Looks if this doubtful hype is that important to you. I mean you fight so much for. Assuming so many things without reason
1) laxus durability
2) laxus endurance
3) how weak aria is compared to natsu
4) erza is weaker than wrecked attack team
5) selective hype believing.
And some more
If this hype is so important to your life than ok ok
I will for you believe that GMG jury was >> Mira plus erza
Hell lets add aconolgia + zeref there too since he is the most strongest human alive.
Ok. I hope you are happy
And you can sleep peacefully now
1. Nowhere was it ever stated that Whal negated her Macro. That is what fans said, it was never stated in the Manga. Unless you can provide a panel where it is stated.
2. Marde Geer was completely wiped from existence once his book was destroyed. Plutogrim was still around just in crumbles.
He literally calls out her Macro right after the page you posted and only the fodder by Wahl (which were Wahl bots) are the only ones up so again it was Wahl that negated it, not fodder. Unless you think Wahl's fodders are light years above Erza and Minerva? That's what I thought.
Mard's Curses were all over the place so it's not a stretch she took over his power through his Curses. Plutogrim was dead tho and she was still able to take it over it from the Curse hence the name Alegria.
That is actually reasonable.
But we end up with more questions
it wasn't aria > natsu
But blinded aria > natsu
So if aria was a bad match up for natsu (that is an if because we have to wonder about many other fights and were they bad matchup too. Basically our entire concept of who is stronger goes out of the window because we normally don't analyze a fight that much)
How weak was blinded aria
Blinded aria = natsu
Or aria = natsu
Natsu > aria is huge jump and this hype is getting alot of benefit of doubt.
Then we have to remember
Erza > aria is not true.
Erza one shoted him
So we end up with
Erza >>> aria
With > meaning just stronger. With >> meaning able to mid dif or one shot if one goes all out. With >>> meaning one shot with a medium level attack.
Unfortunately it was
wrecked erza >>> aria
So if give natsu alot of benefit of doubt
We still get
Erza >> natsu
So how much we assume, that much possible error will exist.
Others things to consider about bad matchup
Was erza a bad match up for aria because she could cut through his magic. Or is it same as natsu burning zeref magic.
What about Jura. he seems to me like a long to medium range mage with magic focus on defense. I can't name one spell he can do in close counter combat. I don't think he can even enforce his hands like natsu and laxus.
So since laxus is a speedster and close to medium range fighter. Was he a bad matchup for jura.
Making assumptions is always easy to prove something. But we must remember to apply them everywhere and then see whether our assumption was correct or not.
And most time it is easier to look outside of the story from author perspective. Did he even bother thinking as much a we are. Or did he go like lightening doesn't work on this guy, thus bad matchup
That is actually reasonable.
But we end up with more questions
it wasn't aria > natsu
But blinded aria > natsu
So if aria was a bad match up for natsu (that is an if because we have to wonder about many other fights and were they bad matchup too. Basically our entire concept of who is stronger goes out of the window because we normally don't analyze a fight that much)
How weak was blinded aria
Blinded aria = natsu
Or aria = natsu
Natsu > aria is huge jump and this hype is getting alot of benefit of doubt.
Then we have to remember
Erza > aria is not true.
Erza one shoted him
So we end up with
Erza >>> aria
With > meaning just stronger. With >> meaning able to mid dif or one shot if one goes all out. With >>> meaning one shot with a medium level attack.
Unfortunately it was
wrecked erza >>> aria
So if give natsu alot of benefit of doubt
We still get
Erza >> natsu
So how much we assume, that much possible error will exist.
Others things to consider about bad matchup
Was erza a bad match up for aria because she could cut through his magic. Or is it same as natsu burning zeref magic.
What about Jura. he seems to me like a long to medium range mage with magic focus on defense. I can't name one spell he can do in close counter combat. I don't think he can even enforce his hands like natsu and laxus.
So since laxus is a speedster and close to medium range fighter. Was he a bad matchup for jura.
Making assumptions is always easy to prove something. But we must remember to apply them everywhere and then see whether our assumption was correct or not.
Aria without blindfold was stronger true. he was still a bad match up for Natsu.
Festival and Phantom arc
Natsu full power > Gajeel full power
Natsu full power > wrecked Erza
Erza full power > Natsu full power
Laxus full power > Erza full power
I mean, Laxus roar took down both Gajeel and Natsu. you may say that it was not strong but it was. heck, he was even surprised that they were alive. Lightning does that to the target and Gajeel was pretty much done until the last part of the fight where he took the blow meant for Natsu. also, they were down for a couple of minutes. plus, Natsu is Natsu. you can drop a planet busting attack and he will still keep attacking you. it is the matter of willpower.
its hard to say about Jura, considering that his fight with Laxus was mostly off panel. he seems to be very strong in close combat.
Erza didn't have enough firepower to beat Ajeel. she had one sword which AoE is zero. put elemental mage against him and he would be low-mid diffed.
Aria without blindfold was stronger true. he was still a bad match up for Natsu.
Festival and Pgantom arc
Natsu full power > Gajeel full power
Natsu full power > wrekted Erza
Erza full power > Natsu full power
Laxus full power > Erza full power
I mean, Laxus roar took down both Gajeel and Natsu. you may say that it was not strong but it was. heck, he was even surprised that they were alive. Lightning does that to the target.
its hard to say about Jura, considering that his fight with Laxus was mostly off panel. he seems to be very strong in close combat.
Erza didn't have enough firepower to beat Ajeel. she had one sword which AoE is zero. put elemental mage against him and he would be low-mid diffed.
Natsu full power > Gajeel full power
Natsu full power > wrekted Erza
Erza full power > Natsu full power
Yes, let us assume aria was a bad matchup for natsu. But how weak was he.
How much weaker must a mage be to easily beat up a stronger mage just because of matchup.
Especially if he is not immune to the stronger one attacks like zancrow was.
How weak was zancrow compared to natsu
could GMG Wendy give GMG natsu a fight.
Its important because even if aria is a bad matchup for natsu
Full powered aria might still be equal to natsu.
Which would mean wrecked erza can one shot natsu with a medium level attack
Laxus roar was powerful, but it had less effect on natsu as compared to wrecked erza attack on aria.
Let say if erza does the same attack on natsu. What can we assume natsu state will be
What if erza is not wrecked.
What about if she used purgatory amour instead on natsu.
If full powered erza can one shot natsu with purgatory than suddenly we have
Laxus = erza
So you can imagine to prove that one hype that jura = Mira + erza
We have to be extremely biased against erza to get there.
Natsu full power > Gajeel full power
Natsu full power > wrekted Erza
Erza full power > Natsu full power
Yes, let us assume aria was a bad matchup for natsu. But how weak was he.
How much weaker must a mage be to easily beat up a stronger mage just because of matchup.
Especially if he is not immune to the stronger one attacks like zancrow was.
How weak was zancrow compared to natsu
could GMG Wendy give GMG natsu a fight.
Its important because even if aria is a bad matchup for natsu
Full powered aria might still be equal to natsu.
Which would mean wrecked erza can one shot natsu with a medium level attack
Laxus roar was powerful, but it had less effect on natsu as compared to wrecked erza attack on aria.
Let say if erza does the same attack on natsu. What can we assume natsu state will be
What if erza is not wrecked.
What about if she used purgatory amour instead on natsu.
If full powered erza can one shot natsu with purgatory than suddenly we have
Laxus = erza
So you can imagine to prove that one hype that jura = Mira + erza
We have to be extremely biased against erza to get there.
you forgot that until the Festival arc, there were 2 arcs until that happened - Phantom and ToH arc. Natsu improves with every arc without any reason, probably even more than Erza so Natsu in Festival arc is most likely stronger than the one in Phantom or ToH. same goes for Erza although Natsu is.... well Natsu. he is like a Saiyan... unfortunately.
Laxus roar did damage to Gajeel and Natsu, yes.... until Nakama crap kicked in. you know how those things go.
you have to ask Hiro for those fights. FT has inconsistencies when it comes to some fights.
the thing is, Natsu got those Flames of Emotion against Gajeel. at least, that is iirc.
I don't see Erza being equal to Laxus during Festival arc. it is not impossible but I just don't see it. their little scuffle was non serious Laxus against angry Erza. Nakagami Erza was probably the strongest fighter during the GMG except Laxus with Fairy Law.
You're seriously ridiculous, ok I will respect you as much as I can. First off, If Freed can kill Erza then why didn't he become an S class wizard like Erza?? Don't tell me it's because of the plot, because obviously it's not. Freed fought tempester, not just him but the Thunder God Tribe and guess what?? They've get stomped until Laxus intervenes. As for Erza, she fought Kyouka alone and won. Take note: Kyouka>>>Tempester so what's your point?? The reason why Freed was hyped before is because he's one of the villains that's why the thunder god tribe seemed so strong back then. Will you believe that Bickslow just almost stomped gray. It's because of the plot but obviously gray would stomp him in real battle. Same with Freed, he seemed strong before because of the plot, but after that. What did we see from him?? Do you think the name "Freed" can get known to the whole Fiore?? Don't compare him to Titania.
You gotta be nuts if you think Zeref was trying his best against Natsu. He fought back happy to see Natsu can take some damage and also able to burn his magic. He was not trying to beat Natsu. He has abilities to stop time, and so much more that he hasn't even shown yet. Irene learned her new spell from Zeref too. The way Zeref is portrayed, he is strong and smart with or without his curse. Therefore it cannot be determined where the brothers rank against one another if both didn't lay all their cards on the table. Could Natsu have killed Zeref if Happy didn't stop him? Possibly. Could Zeref have done something to cancel it out or dodge it? That's possible too. There is also a difference when one is shocked that the opponent is simply stronger than anticipated, when the enemy is so strong(Acnologia) they are fearful, or if Invel was just shocked to see his king that he is so devoted to getting knocked around. It could be one of these or even a combination of them. Nothing is certain. Depending on which one you believe will determine your ranking.
@Axiomus you got df Gajeel way too low. Assuming he improved as much as the others, he should still be much weaker than Laxus the way he always was. Add df and Gajeel should be able to give at least an even fight against Laxus, regardless of magic advantage df Gajeel would have similar mp against Laxus. Gajeel allowed Laxus to attack him in their first meeting, and took it with a lot of damage, but managed to walk away. But it's very hard to gauge their strengths because Gajeel fought an opponent with odd magic and Laxus fought in bad condition and against one immune to lightning. All that we know is that in the year long training they've proven to have gained power to fight back. This is just the most difficult arc to gauge and could go more than one way.
Aside from actual proof, I see the story portraying that Natsu Gray and Gajeel are in the same level, with Natsu and Gray being a bit stronger than Gajeel, and the saber slayers being right below all three of them. Grey will have to be equal to Natsu when the time comes that he fights END. Natsu and Grey are eternal rivals. Natsu's fight against Gajeel was hard fought and he needs to keep training as hard as usual otherwise Gajeel will surpass him. That's how close I see the three.
No, because Erza is in a totally different league to Freed. Anyone in this league simply outclasses Freed's mightiest feat. This has been shown, portrayal, Erza being appointed master, Erza fighting a spriggan, Erza being always a superior mage, Erza being S-class from the beginning, etc.
Exactly. Back then, before Gildarts was introduced the top 3 wizards of fairy tail are Erza, Laxus, and Mystogan based from Jose. I didn't even hear the name Freed. I don't even know why this guy is comparing him to Erza. Sure, he's underrated but you shouldn't also put him so high above Erza. Like wut??
@Axiomus never mind. I read that part wrong. I skimmed through and thought you had df Gajeel in the twenties. That's a legit ranking. I know Gray didn't look good especially fighting against his old master, who had to give up her life to stop Deliora, but by now he should be able to take Ur down easily if she is only as strong as Deliora at best. The amount of soldiers Gray fought must have drained him by the time Ur came along.
@Axiomus never mind. I read that part wrong. I skimmed through and thought you had df Gajeel in the twenties. That's a legit ranking. I know Gray didn't look good especially fighting against his old master, who had to give up her life to stop Deliora, but by now he should be able to take Ur down easily if she is only as strong as Deliora at best. The amount of soldiers Gray fought must have drained him by the time Ur came along.
I'd say Base Gray would win high difficulty against Ul.
Also Gray wasn't going all out against his master either and was holding back from it, since he wanted for Lyon to climb up the steps and face his master together.
you forgot that until the Festival arc, there were 2 arcs until that happened - Phantom and ToH arc. Natsu improves with every arc without any reason, probably even more than Erza so Natsu in Festival arc is most likely stronger than the one in Phantom or ToH. same goes for Erza although Natsu is.... well Natsu. he is like a Saiyan... unfortunately.
Laxus roar did damage to Gajeel and Natsu, yes.... until Nakama crap kicked in. you know how those things go.
you have to ask Hiro for those fights. FT has inconsistencies when it comes to some fights.
the thing is, Natsu got those Flames of Emotion against Gajeel. at least, that is iirc.
I don't see Erza being equal to Laxus during Festival arc. it is not impossible but I just don't see it. their little scuffle was non serious Laxus against angry Erza. Nakagami Erza was probably the strongest fighter during the GMG except Laxus with Fairy Law.
You mean one arc between then, the tower of heaven arc. Yeah, I know what you mean. But I don't normally such power up otherwise its next to impossible to compare.
I can only compare erza with natsu pre ts by trying to find if they fought the same opponent or if they have an opponent that fought the other.
Like
Erza > tenrou Azuma > Azuma > lily > gajeel > natsu.
See how long that chain is. After I see something like this I go ah I can compare now.
I dont go like
Serena is stronger than average springgan > my assumption
Thus goi also near springgan tier > also my assumption
Its not very reliable. And you can do that with everyone.
So I search for some relations
Aria, racer, lily and José are like the only chains linking erza with natsu
Nakama crap, yeah unfortunately erza fights are full of them and natsu too, and now apparently laxus too. So we have to use um some how.
Yeah there are alot of inconsistencies, that why i give benefit of doubt accordingly. I don't just say things like aria is weaker than natsu because natsu was getting beaten up weaker aria in the first place.
Same way I dont use erza vs ajeel to judge erza powers
Sure he was a bad matchup for her but she had one medium ranked counter for his ability sooo
I disagree about erza vs laxus.
Laxus wasn't serious and erza always fights like that.
Remember Azuma handled lily Wendy mest pretty easily
While erza got stalemated by meredy. That is because she always seems to fight like that.
Both erza and laxus could step up their game . mystogan couldn't though
All his magic we know and jellal knew were something those two could handle the without getting serious.
The way I see it
Erza feat >>> laxus feat
Island buster, stupid endurance. And one shot galore. Op defense. stupid stamina.
But then erza is a main character so obviously she will have more feats than laxus
So I go by normal portrayal, that they are around each other
Then I have another problem
If Erza = laxus
But erza can negate his magic somewhat or defend it completely
Something natsu couldn't do
So even if erza is weaker. I see her winning every time. Of course in a logical fight.
But this is fairy tail
Since I like erza more than laxus. so I give benefit of doubt to laxus.
So what I think would happen if laxus vs erza
Laxus > erza. high diff in ff arc
And
Laxus > erza high diff in GMG as well
Erza might be able to draw with jura too
I think this is most reasonable
I disagree about erza vs laxus.
Laxus wasn't serious and erza always fights like that.
Remember Azuma handled lily Wendy mest pretty easily
While erza got stalemated by meredy. That is because she always seems to fight like that.
Both erza and laxus could step up their game . mystogan couldn't though
All his magic we know and jellal knew were something those two could handle the without getting serious.
The way I see it
Erza feat >>> laxus feat
Island buster, stupid endurance. And one shot galore. Op defense. stupid stamina.
But then erza is a main character so obviously she will have more feats than laxus
So I go by normal portrayal, that they are around each other
Then I have another problem
If Erza = laxus
But erza can negate his magic somewhat or defend it completely
Something natsu couldn't do
So even if erza is weaker. I see her winning every time. Of course in a logical fight.
But this is fairy tail
Since I like erza more than laxus. so I give benefit of doubt to laxus.
So what I think would happen if laxus vs erza
Laxus > erza. high diff in ff arc
And
Laxus > erza high diff in GMG as well
Erza might be able to draw with jura too
I think this is most reasonable
well, considering that Erza had only one armor to counter Laxus (Lightning Empress Armor which negates some of his lightning) then I don't see her winning during the Festival arc. it would be a high diff for Laxus as you said.
and anyone who’d like to join. To those who've already done it, remember you've got 24-36 hours to change your post AND LET ME KNOW (if you don't tell me, I'll use your first ranking as I already collected it). To those who haven't participated, I highly encourage you to do the sorter or to at least provide some sort of sound topx list (top20, top30, top64, or whatever) because the final ranking is going to make for, probably, 'the most accurate' ranking we can get, since it's going ot blend in many people's opinions.
-None of your picks can simply have hype behind them without any panels or feats to back it up. If you decide to go by hype, state where you think this hype comes from. Be consistant.
Ex: Meaning you can't say Wolfhiem is a city buster without any city busting feats to go along with that.
-If you use hype you must use all Hype or no hype.
Ex: If you defend that the GoI are above Jura because Ooba said so, then you also need to defend that all Spriggan12 belong to the same tier (except for August and Irene) because they’ve been hyped to be equals.
-Speculation is fine as long as there is some evidence to support or back you claim up. The evidence has to be relevant to you proposed speculation.
NO Bashing---Be Respectful
If you disagree with someone then you need to provide a counter argument with evidence. You can't just say you disagree. An argument must always be provided if you disagree with someone/something written.
If you decide to back up your ranking list or to criticize someone else’s, your post can't just be a wall of text consisting on baseless speculations.
You can choose to abide by NLF or not. Your choice.
Some characters do have "base" states and "powerup" states. Some like "Natsu", only have one powerup: Igneel-powered Natsu. Then there's just "Natsu". This "Natsu" stands for the strongest Natsu whose powerup depends on only himself: "BDKM Natsu". So, there's no "base Natsu" in this power sorter.
But SO notwithstanding Erza did not improve when she entered the GMG. How could she be stronger then she was on Tenrou and how could the difference be significant even if she had? It was explicitly shown that Erza and everyone who went to party with the CSK did not get ANY training done, hence the need for the SO power-up. Erza as she was during GMG (up until the Minerva final battle) WAS as strong as she was on Tenrou, unless you have some proof of someone saying she seems stronger prior to the SO activation, I simply cannot see how you can think otherwise. Please do explain to me how you believe she got stronger.
Ok I guess you've got a point. Although for me the SO was just a MP boost and no more, but again, you could interpret otherwise. I didn't take it as though Erza automatically improved drastically in all areas (cqc, speed, and so on) upon releasing the SO, but alright. I think they did train for a couple of weeks though (although they had a few months to catch up with the 7-year gap but we all know what happened). 2 weeks training is a longish time considering the growth ratio of characters, especially the main cast. Post-Azuma Erza + 2 weeks training = much stronger Erza than pre-Azuma Erza.
There's no proof per se on that, proof is she showed things back in the pandemonium she shouldn't have been able to pull off back in Tenrou, such as her partly reequiping armors or making combinations of armors, that was a new feat. Also, Jura was fairly impressed at her performance (as was everyone else) and I don't think Jura would've been impressed by a pre-ts character, with some exceptions like Glidartz.
I think they're two separate things. For instance, do you actually see August fighting cqc? I'm not disregarding the possibility but... hmmm Old people in this manga usually have more MP but their cqc abilities have been deteriorated.
But she wasn't. Benizakura has always shown to be Erzas trump card, once she used it she essentially won. Just like every other fight she has been in. Kagura defeating every armour Pre-Benizakura just means that she is stronger then a Non-full powered Tenrou Erza. Ikaruga and Azuma are on the same boat as Kagura.
Sheathed Kagura was vastly superior to anything Erza could pull off (except for Benizakura) and then Kagura unsheathes (which apparently boosts her power by quite a lot) and ends up defeated by Benizakura Erza, like a oneshot.
I'd say that back in the GMG, everyone from Tenrou was fodder. Kagura was portrayed to be a very powerful character even for GMG standards, when she shouldn't be considered as such if she's to be compared to a Tenrou Erza. I mean, by that token, you'd be classing Kagura on a similar tier to Max, who actually was beating Natsu up until he decided to go full power. And we all know Kagura is so vastly superior to Max...
Make herself lighter? That only works in favour of Torafusa when he smashes her at full force. Her mastery with gravity magic is not at the level where you could give it the benefit of the doubt over Torafusas manipulation of water, she used it once in an insignificant battle. As for whether she could cut him or not, she could, but a cut isn't going to KO Torafusa and the odds of her landing her attack is pretty damn slim considering Torafusas insane speed in water and her movement speed being significantly worse.
Point taken but, again, I've got a point too. We don't know the limitations to Kagura's gravity magic but we know they're superior to a Golden Key Celestial Spirit, and we know she taught some members like Risley so... Maybe not at Bluenote's level but definetely a factor to be taken into account.
Torafusas base EF form durability is likely higher then Erzas given that he no-sold an ISD roar. His augmented durability is unquestionably higher then Erzas. Its probably almost as high as her durability with Adamantine armour, if not just as high. Or maybe even a little higher. Gajeel downright broke his iron arm punching him in that state.
Adamantine armour tanked a Jupiter before destroying, I don't see a Tartaros demon tanking a Jupiter but alright let's say his durability is superior to Erza's. Then Kagura's gonna have a lot of trouble. But still, characters like Juvia or Lucy managed to beat a Tartaros Demon and I consider Kagura so superior to them...
It might be to you, it might be to me, but people who're gonna abide by it are going to be convinced their argument is as right as ours and as a matter of fact, if you look at it from another perspective, certain haxes don't seem to have a limit per se. For example, Marin's hax was affecting mages of superior caliber to him. Freed can make a barrier which withstands Makarov's attacks, which are more powerful than his own durability. And so on and so forth.
I understand that DiMaria has massive power with the NLF (people think she actually manipulates real time, rather then her magic serving as a time replacer within a certain radius just like every other magic in the manga) but I never understood the NLF hype for Jacob and Brandish. The former can't use transport instantly, and even when he claps his hands there is a period of time before it actually sends everyone in the area to his dimension.
While it is true, there's like 1 second for clapping + 2 seconds for activating his magic, which makes an amount of time that wasn't enough for anyone to react. Of course top-notch characters may be able to do something against it, but Makarov who's still reasonable useful wasn't capable of doing anything.
It's true it'd take you less than 1 second to escape the AoE if you're as fast as the sound, and I think Natsu's got that speed, this is why I'm not necessarily saying Jacob can beat Natsu, especially if the latter knows that upon clapping, he's gonna automatically lose.
As for Brandish, I don't get where people get this idea that she could just shrink any organ on a whim, I'm pretty sure it would take more precision to do that then simply shrinking someones entire body or an object.
This idea comes from the fact that she was capable of pinpointing and shrinking to a negligible size Natsu's tumor. I also agree the pinpointing of the organ takes precission and time, but people were arguing that it'd take less than one second so, yeah.
@Cosmicstar as much as you believe Macro not to have been negated by Wahl because it was never stated, a fan can believe Mira actually managed to get MG's soul, since it was officially stated that she got all of them.
Point taken but, again, I've got a point too. We don't know the limitations to Kagura's gravity magic but we know they're superior to a Golden Key Celestial Spirit, and we know she taught some members like Risley so... Maybe not at Bluenote's level but definetely a factor to be taken into account.
Well you can't compare Bluenote and Kagura Gravity magic from Bluenote we saw only one thing ( two if you count black hole ) he only increase gravity at certain area..Kagura Gravity change/transformation is different much more increase and decrease pin-point target or herself gravity ( Libra was next to Yukino but only Libra and whole Pisces was affected by it ) and changes how the gravity works... ( i can't find words in my poor English to describe it :P) like Risley show us during Chariot http://mangafox.me/manga/fairy_tail/v33/c276/7.html . Overall Bluenote Gravity may be more powerful ( dunno about it ) but Kagura magic is much more Versatile.
I think they're two separate things. For instance, do you actually see August fighting cqc? I'm not disregarding the possibility but... hmmm Old people in this manga usually have more MP but their cqc abilities have been deteriorated.
Because they are MP when rising overall does not increase psychical stats ( unless someone use magic to raise it example : Meteor << but then we can't say it's psychical speed of Jellal ) example :
-Lucy : ( don't hate me i like her :P ) while having High MP her psychical stats aren't that great << i could give more even from current Arc we all saw that durability isn't strong side of many characters and that's psychical stat as well :P
Forgive my two words in this thread ( tactical withdraw )
How Do you calculate it? when we the one who makes the List is not 100% agree with it? But I'm still looking forward and then im going to decide whether its accurate or not.
I'll let you know the methodology I follow, but the general ranking will be accurate and will take into account everyone's rankings! So, you only need to post your top64 (or topx if you don't want to go through the sorter or something like that).
( tactical withdraw