European Politics

shionoro

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So, the US election thread is used as a general thread to talk about US politics by now, so i thought I'd open a european counterpart.

Europe, at the moment, is a place with big wealth but also countless of different crisis.
The refugee crisis, the rise of rightwing politicians, the brexit, the relationship to turkey and russia and islamic terrorism.

Today is one more of the sad days of terror in france, as if the country didnt have enough attacks in the last time.

The big question is whether the european union can recover from all those stiches or whether it falls further apart.
What do you think? how should europe or the different countryheads react to all that trouble?
 

GrySun

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I love how you put "rise of rightwing politicians" as a crisis, listing it with actual problems like terrorism. :notlikethis
 

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Yeah, 'cause his point really was that the relationship to Turkey or Russia and Islamic terrorism are equally terrible...
:notlikethis

And don't get me started on all those people dying in the cause of Brexit...
 

shionoro

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I love how you put "rise of rightwing politicians" as a crisis, listing it with actual problems like terrorism. :notlikethis
You got things mixed up here.
The rise of rightwing politicians threatens europe as a whole much more than terrorist strikes do.
Terrorist strikes claim lifes, but up until now, they are only a significant problem in france, belgium and the netherlands.
Most european countries do not have any problem with terrorism, but almost all of them have a problem with emerging right wing tendencies.
And those tendencies claim lifes, too.

We have golden dawn in greece who is responsible for killing or beating up migrants, we have fire attacks in germany on asylum homes which did claim victims, we have knife attacks on politicians in germany and britain. And those things are linked to rightwing populism.
And that is not even why it is so threatening: we now have european politicians, for example in hungary, openly suggesting to go back to death penalty and remodeling their states more towards autocracys. Another important example of this is poland, where the first thign the PiS government did was restricting media rights and maiming the surpreme court.
These are really problems which can lead to the EU falling apart (because most of those right winger have in common that they take the money from the EU but then yell against it towards their people)..
Terrorist strikes, as sad as they are, cannot do that, much like mass shooting in the US do not threaten to destroy the general order in the US, while for example a rightextremist president with majority in the senate would be very threatening.

I must ask you: What is NOT a crisis in the rise of politicians who employ nothing but populism and stir tensions inside a country and inside the EU without any constructive aim?

Edit: And i might add: The US has the same problem. There are actual people choosing someone like Trump over Sanders, Clinton or Kasich.
All of these, no matter whether you like them or not, are at least politicians with some substance.
And no matter whether you think Clinton is a terrible liar (and she lied on many accounts), she is not someone openly making people to beat other people up, calling for throwing out a whole religious gruop or building giant walls.
The difference is that this one time, the US system works better than the european ones: As long as Trump does not win, it basically does not matter that so many americans think what he says are good plans.
In Europe, that picture is different: a 20% right extremist party can severely damage democratic systems already, and a 40% one would most probably be the governing party
 
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MArGi

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Terrorist strikes, as sad as they are, cannot do that, much like mass shooting in the US do not threaten to destroy the general order in the US, while for example a rightextremist president with majority in the senate would be very threatening.

I must ask you: What is NOT a crisis in the rise of politicians who employ nothing but populism and stir tensions inside a country and inside the EU without any constructive aim?
Terrorist attacks indirectly influence people into voting for rightwing parties though, especially considering the other problems Europe has to face. After each attack, those parties never fail to highlight the current government's supposed inaction and incompetence, that closed borders are safe borders, that a more controlled immigration would help into increasing national safety... And if you keep repeating that to a tired and angry people that has lost faith in its politics, then the worst can happen.
 

shionoro

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Terrorist attacks indirectly influence people into voting for rightwing parties though, especially considering the other problems Europe has to face. After each attack, those parties never fail to highlight the current government's supposed inaction and incompetence, that closed borders are safe borders, that a more controlled immigration would help into increasing national safety... And if you keep repeating that to a tired and angry people that has lost faith in its politics, then the worst can happen.
That is true. Interestingly, it is exspecially true for the countries in which the terror strike did not happen and who have no islamists among them.
Poland, Hungary and slovakia are good examples of this. I sadly do not know where i can get reliable french polls on a weekly basis about predicted voting behaviour, but as far as i know the rise of FN was not necessarily dependend on the terror attacks and france reacted quite mature to them so far.
This might change now (but i hope it wont) because initially, hollande gained popularity because many voters felt he handled the situation well.
With the newest attacks, many people might feel otherwise.

So yes, terror and rightwingers are definitely interconnected. But the rise of rightwingers, in my opinion, would happen anyway, with or without terror attacks. It did so in the past before the latest wave of terror strikes happened, fueled with the refugee crisis.
 

Philia

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American or European, politics sucks.

It seems European countries are becoming increasingly xenophobic.
In UK we have tories in power which is full of right wingers. And the labour party is pretty incompetent. The had their all time lowest vote percentage last election.

Another crisis I might add is Europe's aging population. Germany has a median age of probably 45+. And many other country has 40+ median age. 2 centuries ago average life expectancy was below that. If the trend continues which infact seems irreversible, it will have some consequences.
 

z.5

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In UK we have tories in power which is full of right wingers. And the labour party is pretty incompetent. The had their all time lowest vote percentage last election.
It would probably help if the Labour MP's didn't spend the majority of their time trying to usurp their leader - and spent considerably more time fighting their side against the Tories...
 

Philia

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I love how you put "rise of rightwing politicians" as a crisis, listing it with actual problems
like terrorism. :notlikethis
It is a bigger problem compared to terrorism. They cause more damage than terrorists. See brexit.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
It would probably help if the Labour MP's didn't spend the majority of their time trying to usurp their leader - and spent considerably more time fighting their side against the Tories...
Idk. I like Corbin but he's lost the confidence of party's influential members. Look how many of his shadow ministers quit. But I doubt they have a better option than sticking with Corbin. That shows what a mess the party is.
 

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Idk. I like Corbin but he's lost the confidence of party's influential members. Look how many of his shadow ministers quit. But I doubt they have a better option than sticking with Corbin. That shows what a mess the party is.
Well... they tried everything else to oust him. They even tried asking nicely, heh...

The main issue is the huge difference between the MP's views and the views of the people who bothered voting in the Labour leadership elections. It seems neither represent the other (which is odd, as you'd imagine that the views of the MP's should be a pretty good representation of the views of the voters).

This, I'm afraid, will become even more evident when the Eagle (et al.) fail at removing him in the upcoming leadership elections...
What's more, they will blame him for splitting the party, when it is infact them who don't appear to represent the party they help lead.
 

MArGi

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That is true. Interestingly, it is exspecially true for the countries in which the terror strike did not happen and who have no islamists among them.
Poland, Hungary and slovakia are good examples of this. I sadly do not know where i can get reliable french polls on a weekly basis about predicted voting behaviour, but as far as i know the rise of FN was not necessarily dependend on the terror attacks and france reacted quite mature to them so far.
This might change now (but i hope it wont) because initially, hollande gained popularity because many voters felt he handled the situation well.
With the newest attacks, many people might feel otherwise.
Polls are not reliable anyways, I found a French website showing the polls before each election since 1980. They were all wrong, except for 2007 (kinda). And in the current context, they are even more inconsistent. Look at the Brexit.
Yes, the FN's political weight is not new. JM Le Pen was even the opponent of Chirac in 2002, but he lost by far. But he was a well-known anti-semite, surrounded by anti-Semite old assholes. His daughter is different. She campaigns differently and she finally managed to distance herself from her father's image. And the current situation, which is unprecedented (Brexit + refugee + terrorist attacks), sets a perfect ground up for her. So yes, the FN is not new, but it's gaining power. They have the majority in the European Parliament. They scored really well for the first round of the departemental elections, although they didn't win any departments in the end. It still is shocking.
Also, Hollande gained popularity with the Euro 2016... ^^ Opinions are changing so easily. With the newest attack, people are angry. The first one shocked and the second one saddened mostly, but now I feel like anger prevails. It happened on our National Day moreover. Hollande says that he will continue striking Islamists in Syria - that's one of the reasons why he gained popularity the first time - but now that a third attack has happened, I really feel like it's just for show and that it won't solve the problem. And that's why people might vote for the FN, because if the politics we know fail, then we try something new.
Well, I'm no specialist, but that's the overall feeling that I have.

So yes, terror and rightwingers are definitely interconnected. But the rise of rightwingers, in my opinion, would happen anyway, with or without terror attacks. It did so in the past before the latest wave of terror strikes happened, fueled with the refugee crisis.
I agree. It started with the global economic crisis, then the euro crisis and now the refugee crisis as you say. The terrorist attacks are just part of the scheme. People fear for their national identity and that's the one common point of all the countries where extreme right parties gain in popularity have. And in Europe, the EU has become the perfect scapegoat unfortunately.
BTW, most of the countries criticize Germany over the policies they impose on the EU, but what do Germans think about it?

Also, the attempted coup d'état in Turkey... Who saw that coming? but it's good that the Turkish people seems to stand for its democracy. The situation is still confused though.
 
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shionoro

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Polls are not reliable anyways, I found a French website showing the polls before each election since 1980. They were all wrong, except for 2007 (kinda). And in the current context, they are even more inconsistent. Look at the Brexit.
Yes, the FN's political weight is not new. JM Le Pen was even the opponent of Chirac in 2002, but he lost by far. But he was a well-known anti-semite, surrounded by anti-Semite old assholes. His daughter is different. She campaigns differently and she finally managed to distance herself from her father's image. And the current situation, which is unprecedented (Brexit + refugee + terrorist attacks), sets a perfect ground up for her. So yes, the FN is not new, but it's gaining power. They have the majority in the European Parliament. They scored really well for the first round of the departemental elections, although they didn't win any departments in the end. It still is shocking.
Also, Hollande gained popularity with the Euro 2016... ^^ Opinions are changing so easily. With the newest attack, people are angry. The first one shocked and the second one saddened mostly, but now I feel like anger prevails. It happened on our National Day moreover. Hollande says that he will continue striking Islamists in Syria - that's one of the reasons why he gained popularity the first time - but now that a third attack has happened, I really feel like it's just for show and that it won't solve the problem. And that's why people might vote for the FN, because if the politics we know fail, then we try something new.
Well, I'm no specialist, but that's the overall feeling that I have.
Oh, alright. the german polls were always very accurate when it came to Electing the parliament, that's why i actually do follow them (it's always hard to poll something like the brexit which never happened before because you have no baseline).

Yes Hollande's reign really was not under a lucky star.
But i give him that i think he did a better job at keeping the country together after the terror strikes than sarkozy would have done.
As you said, the problem is that people do not see FN as a right extremist party anymore.
I am really afraid to think about what someone like le pen would do after shocking happenings like this.

I agree. It started with the global economic crisis, then the euro crisis and now the refugee crisis as you say. The terrorist attacks are just part of the scheme. People fear for their national identity and that's the one common point of all the countries where extreme right parties gain in popularity have. And in Europe, the EU has become the perfect scapegoat unfortunately.
BTW, most of the countries criticize Germany over the policies they impose on the EU, but what do Germans think about it?
Well, germany, at the moment, is a 3/4 to 1/4 divided country, roughly speaking.
You have the same voices here who claim the EU is forcing germany to do things (which is quite funny).
Talks about the EU doing silly economic rules (which turn out to be useful), enabling evil thieves from poland and the netherlands and romania to steal and flee the country and the EU forcing us to not do laws (which in fact does happen, the german maut was FORTUNATELY stopped by the EU), those are all pretty old claims.
What is new is that the anti EU forces in germany adopt the claims from other countrys: They now claim that basically the opposite: Merkel is evil because she wants to force countries in the EU to adopt her stances, which is why evil merkel has to go because she makes europe hate us.

The AFD is the german counterpart to the FN. They are not quite as succesful, but they work the same way: They deny being a right extremist party and focus a lot on economy instead and have a woman as a headfigure to make them seem more tame. They were almost gone from the political landscape until the refugee crisis happened.
And they stand for the part of germany who thinks putin is right in the ukraine conflict, think merkel is a left extremist and think that germany is better off without the EU (and of course think that the refugees have to go and it is fine to shoot them down on the borders).

All rightpopulists in europe basically work the same way here.

When it comes to the government and the actual german public however, the picture is different.
Germany does not actually want to lead, not its government and not even its people.
This is why Germans were really frustrated with eastern europe and many other countries in the refugee crisis (in which much more countries felt like germany was dictating them than in the financial crisis imo).
The refugee problem seemes like something which had to be done and thus most germans, at least initially, accepted it.
It felt natural that the rest of europe would do their share of the problem, exspecially the eastern european countries which do receive a lot of EU funding.

But this crisis worked differently than the financial crisis for one very small reason: Sarkozy was gone.
For all his flaws, sarkozy was probably merkel's biggest and most important partner.
The two didnt even like each other initially and ha da lot of spirited discussions, but once merkel had an agreement with him, she knew that sarkozy would follow through with it.
When germany and france speak with one voice in the EU, the other countries usually fall in line pretty quickly (which can be seen as a problem, but for merkel it is much easier to have hard discussions with one person and then be done with it than to have hard discussions with 20 people and then have 10 to go back on their words later).
In the financial crissi sarkozy did not share a lot of her views, but they still supported each other to end the crisis.
Sarkozy was more of a EU politician than Hollande is.

As it stand now, the only person who tries to play a leading role in the EU is merkel (and maybe, if we want to count them, junker and schulz, but those are not countryheads).
And that is bad and it is not a situation merkel actually wants, in my opinion.
I think she would be really happy if someone else sticked his head out.

The problem never were different opinions in the refugee crisis.
The problem were politicians heckling down Merkel for personal gains in inner politics, in my opinion (exspecially orban is a great example of this).
And the problem also is not germany imposing anything on other states.
States like slovakia, Hungary, chech or finland were quite happy about merkel playing tough on greece in the greek crisis.
And Merkel was fine with going back on things she initially said after discussing with Sarkozy (they played a striking good cop bad cop team on that one).

With all those things considered, it feels very frustrating for germany (who in the latest time, as i said, really has no intention to trample over other countries, even if it does so sometimes due to carelessness) to face accusations like that when it actually tries to do useful EU politics.

I personally think that while germany's stance on greece was too harsh back then, its stance in the refugee crisis was absolutely necessary.
What would have happened with the one million of syrians who are in germany now if they had not been let through when a good chunk of them was already in eastern europe?
Throwing them out again with weapon force? It is sad really that europe had to run to erdogan of all people to play bumper for them.

Also, the attempted coup d'état in Turkey... Who saw that coming? but it's good that the Turkish people seems to stand for its democracy. The situation is still confused though.
Well, i sure didnt. I was pretty shocked when i saw that, came absolutely out of the blue.
i thought Erdogan controlled the whole military force by now. It seems like he controls enough of it to handle it, tho.
 

g01

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Also, the attempted coup d'état in Turkey... Who saw that coming? but it's good that the Turkish people seems to stand for its democracy. The situation is still confused though.
Well, i sure didnt. I was pretty shocked when i saw that, came absolutely out of the blue.
i thought Erdogan controlled the whole military force by now. It seems like he controls enough of it to handle it, tho.
You can count me in,actually you can count everyone in the turkey in.
No matter how you look at it,it was bad for my people and country(161 martyr and most of them civil and over 1400 injured...).
BUT there is something not right about this, some people think that erdoğan did that.Tbh I really don't know what to think right now(most of turkey don't know too).I spent the night trying to buy supplies and taking cash from ATMs...
And shionoro I am kinda busy,that's why I didn't reply you in other thread.Sorry about that.
 

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You can count me in,actually you can count everyone in the turkey in.
No matter how you look at it,it was bad for my people and country(161 martyr and most of them civil and over 1400 injured...).
BUT there is something not right about this, some people think that erdoğan did that.Tbh I really don't know what to think right now(most of turkey don't know too).I spent the night trying to buy supplies and taking cash from ATMs...
And shionoro I am kinda busy,that's why I didn't reply you in other thread.Sorry about that.
Don't worry about that (and good thing you are safe) :)

Well i do not think Erdogan did this.
I think back when he wanted to get the absolute majority back that he willingly let the conflict with the kurds escalate to keep the HDP at bay, so i really don't have a high opinion about erdogan, but this?
I don't see why he would do that. He didnt do something like this when the HDP threatened his absolute reign and he didnt do something like this at the gezi protest timeframe.
At the moment, he has a lot of unthreatened power. I just dont see the necessity of taking this risk (and it is a risk which could destabilize the country, even if it was fake).

There are talks now about reinstalling death penalty. This is very problematic.
But even i wouldnt think erdogan would take this risk of damaging his own country just to reinstall death penalty and make his course harsher.
 
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g01

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Don't worry about that (and good thing you are safe) :)

Well i do not think Erdogan did this.
I think back when he wanted to get the absolute majority back that he willingly let the conflict with the kurds escalate to keep the HDP at bay, so i really don't have a high opinion about erdogan, but this?
I don't see why he would do that. He didnt do something like this when the HDP threatened his absolute reign and he didnt do something like this at the gezi protest timeframe.
At the moment, he has a lot of unthreatened power. I just dont see the necessity of taking this risk (and it is a risk which could destabilize the country, even if it was fake).

There are talks now about reinstalling death penalty. This is very problematic.
But even i wouldnt think erdogan would take this risk of damaging his own country just to reinstall death penalty and make his course harsher.
ah thanks so much,last night was really messy,streets were in chaos.
You can't imagine his current position in some people's eyes,this alone will help him get more votes for presidential system.And with this he can take out soldiers that he doesn't like too.
Without full power of army no one can take down erdoğan ,that was obvious.So what were they thinking ? almost all of generals,colonels and commanders gave the order to return back to barracks.And people are suspicous because of soldiers behavior, during other coups when army declared curfew,they shooted everyone they saw in the streets(even in balconies) but this time hey didn't do such a thing.
Anyway perhaps we are acting so paranoid but I am glad that they couldn't coup,it would be worse.But right now there are some ignorants that hates soldiers which that doesn't makes sense.Most of those soldiers didn't know why they were there,it was their comand so they followed it.
In the end PKK(terrorist group that cause so many deaths in turkey) got the best result I suppose...

I don't know I didn't heard anything about death penalty yet but I hope that won't happen.
 

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ah thanks so much,last night was really messy,streets were in chaos.
You can't imagine his current position in some people's eyes,this alone will help him get more votes for presidential system.And with this he can take out soldiers that he doesn't like too.
Without full power of army no one can take down erdoğan ,that was obvious.So what were they thinking ? almost all of generals,colonels and commanders gave the order to return back to barracks.And people are suspicous because of soldiers behavior, during other coups when army declared curfew,they shooted everyone they saw in the streets(even in balconies) but this time hey didn't do such a thing.
Anyway perhaps we are acting so paranoid but I am glad that they couldn't coup,it would be worse.But right now there are some ignorants that hates soldiers which that doesn't makes sense.Most of those soldiers didn't know why they were there,it was their comand so they followed it.
In the end PKK(terrorist group that cause so many deaths in turkey) got the best result I suppose...

I don't know I didn't heard anything about death penalty yet but I hope that won't happen.
It was yildirim himself who said 'it is not part of our constitution, but we have to think about reinstalling death penalty to prevent such a thing from happening again'.
Let's hope he will not follow through with that.

By now, as far as i read, there are already measures taken against a lot of judges, even some from the surpreme board.
The rhetoric and actions seem like they want to cleanse oppositional judges and militaries.
 

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It was yildirim himself who said 'it is not part of our constitution, but we have to think about reinstalling death penalty to prevent such a thing from happening again'.
Let's hope he will not follow through with that.

By now, as far as i read, there are already measures taken against a lot of judges, even some from the surpreme board.
The rhetoric and actions seem like they want to cleanse oppositional judges and militaries.
Yes I saw that too and i hope that will not happen.

It is like perfect time for them to do it. I don't know how will that end but something tells me that there will be nothing good about this...
 

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I talked to some more people from turkey, and so far, almost all of them were dead set on this being a fake coup 0.o
I didnt assume that this would be a widespread belief.
 

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We will probably never find out whether Erdogan was behind this but it is my belief that he is. A cousin of my mother belongs to the high brass of the military in Ankara and he has lived through 3 military coups in Turkey and he said none of the actions of yesterday even remotely resemble a coup.
 

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I talked to some more people from turkey, and so far, almost all of them were dead set on this being a fake coup 0.o
I didnt assume that this would be a widespread belief.
Indeed,I can easily say that half of the country sure about it.
Like miyamoto said,my father and my friends parents remember other coups and couple of hours after erdoğan's first speech,they all said that this is not a coup,this is fake.
You see no matter what kind of political side one is,everybody suffered greatly during coups.For some people erdoğan become a true hero,he who stopped coup with help of people.Can you imagine the power and votes that he gains ? and he is cleaning his road by get ride of oppositional judges and militaries...
Another thing is he asked people to went to streets and face with soldiers.It is confirmed by both him and media that rebels are small number of soldiers.He has the power of most of the militaries,yet asked people to face with soldiers and 161 people died(and iirc most of them actually civil)...This cause hatred toward soldiers which most of them don't even know what is going on.
 
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