Most of his supporters joined him because he provided them jobs and position.Do you think he got 200.000 supporters because he is a good guy and a great muslim ? Most of them see gülen as a good invesment.And no body give their life for invesments.
That might not makes sense to you but you do not live in this country,you do not know how much people actually hate erdoğan.You know even during coup attempt you can find people saying "coup is bad I know but at least we will get ride of erdoğan".Some people actually see erdoğan worse than coup,as I said before I do not like him even a bit but fact is fact he can't be worse than coup.
Coup didn't happen like "hey we are gülen's followers,we are calling CHP and MHP to help us destroy AKP".Coup statement in TRT repeatedly said that "we will rebuild this country according to Atatürk's will","secularism will return with Atatürk's principles".Atatürk is a great person for us and holds really important place in this country and in our heart no matter who you support.That statement was basically call for kemalists and nationalists generals and soldiers.Which that could work if not for media.
You misunderstand me I suppose, I didn't say it came out of blue for our government and like you said it is impossible for national Intelligence organization and goverment didn't notice such an attempt.Right now erdoğan doing his own coup and taking people that against him.I never meant he is not doing such a thing.What I am saying is there was a coup attempt and erdoğan didn't do that but he is taking advantage of it.
You might say that I am not right about this but right now erdoğan is doing the right thing at some point. You have no idea how gülen communitarians get their jobs.At most you only heard it.Do you now how hard for a teacher to get appointment ? thousands of graduates are still waiting and with every year thousands join them BUT these communitarians always but seriously always get appointments.Judges exams,university entrance exams,police entrance exam,command and general exams...They have both questions and answers of these exams.In university entrance exams,you enter 2 exams and their average of the sum+school achievement score is determine your grade,last year when I entered university entrance exams I had a good results from exams and when my school achievement score added I should get a better grade because mine was good but guess what I fell behind of 5 thousand people and not just me but lot of my friends except for obvious people.Same applies to every other exams.(there are so many examples like literaly,they are doing this on everything)
That's why half of the people of this country hate erdoğan,he let them do that,he let them get what they wanted.It is his fault too.But most of the people deserved what they got right now.They shouldn't be in their positons,most of them got those positions with injustice.(this also include akp supporters too but unfortunately none can touch them right now)
What I am saying is no matter if erdoğan supported them long time ago,what they did was wrong and crime.There is no defence like "erdoğan supported them too".And what they did was most definelty illegal.
Now, if Erdogan would have been straight up (with or without the coup) saying: "Gülen people are corrupt, there is evidence about it, and thus we are closing all of their schools", then i would be absolutely fine with that.
There should be enough evidence, erdogan already cleaned a lot of the police force after the incident with the corruption of erdogan's son.
He should be able to close the schools the normal way.
He did not do that tho. He claims that all the people imprisoned now have to do with the coup.
That can not be true. You said that noone gives their life for gülen, so there definitely are not almost 10.000 people involved into the coup. It would not have been possible to keep it a secret then anyway.
And erdogan does not only clean the people who are under the influence of gülen. Erdogan keeps on imprisoning critical journalists and academics.
As you said yourself, he did not cause the coup, but he uses it.
And i find the way he uses it much more threatening than the corruption of gülen.
By the end of his purge, he will have undisputed and absolute power and he is known to abuse it.
Even now, he shows he can imprison anyone he wants at any point in time.
I do not think both EU or US have any sympathy and goodwill for my people and this is not just me but everyone in this country think in this way.And we have proof,it's name is pkk.
I do not hate any people from europe and america(exept racist part) but when it comes to politics I do not and will not trust Eu and US on any matter.(come to think of it I do not even trust my people at some point when it comes to politic)
I would not see it that way. The US always had a give and take relationship, but the US is clearly interested in keeping turkey is a stabile ally. But I would agree that it is amore practical relationship.
It is different with the EU however. I think the EU as an entity has shown quite a few efforts to improve its relations with turkey. That should not be misinterpreted as the single states or inhabitants of them doing so. There are quite a lot of bad views on turkey in germany, austria and france for example. Merkel and Sarkozy both opted against a full EU membership of turkey. However, the EU has held the promises it made in exchange for reforms in turkey.
There was a time in which it looked like erdogan was modernizing turkey when he appeased the turkish-kurdish relations, and in that time, it would have been hard for even the antiturkey EU states to deny turkey the membership on the long run.
Those states mainly feared that an unstable turkey in the EU would be too dangerous because turkey would then have the same power as germany and france in the european parliament because it has that many inhabitants.
However, the efforts actually made had mostly to do with human rights stuff, so the EU didnt really gain a lot out of that.
When i look onto a parallel case, serbia, i find that the EU at least showed as much goodwill and sympathiy as towards serbia.,and serbia is due to join soon.
Now, you mentioned the PKK: It is true that there are quite some forces in the EU downplaying the terrorist aspects of the PKK, exspecially leftists.
You will find german leftist politcians who openly see the PKK as an allied party in socialism. They will say 'well violence is never good' but they will also defend it.
However, you will hardly find any government taking that stance. Merke's party for example would never say anything except 'the pkk are terrorists'.
I would compare it with another conflict, the israel-palestine conflict.
It is very clear that the hamas are terrorists, however, abbas is even allowed to speak in front of the european parliament.
Just recently, he stood there and said that jews poison wells to kill palestinian children ( a classic myth from the nazi time) and people still applauded.
Personally, i am apalled by that and i can understand why israel would not see the EU as an ally or friend.
However, it is complex to take the right stance in complex conflicts, and the kurdish-turkish conflict is a complex one.
In any conflict without a clear guilty party, it is hard to find the right tone. Anyway, i would not misinterpret the glorification of the PKK by some politicians to the whole EU taking a pro pkk stance.
The EU as an entity is seeing the PKK as a terror organization, while, yes, many if not most single EU states did not see it as a terror organization in their national laws.
Or why do you think the the EU or the US are supporting the PKK in any way?
Edit: It is actually an interesting question how the majority or different factions in turkey look onto the EU, france and germany and the US or, if we wanna go wild, on the east with russia, saudi arabia and iran.
Some posts ago you asked me how the popularity of merkel is at the moment.
At that time, it was slowly rising again. Now it fell by a big amount again.
This is again closely connected to turkey. BAsically, the more crazy things erdogan or other turkish politicians say, the more her popularity declines because by now, the foreign picture of turkey is very negative and merkel is seen as too dependend and devote to erdogan.
Comparing that to christian kern, austrian foreign minister, who gets into twitter flamewars with turkish officials. That guy is a rightwinger himself who sometimes says really nasty stuff, but he can efficiently make himself look good and brave by using the anti turkey tendencies among austrians.
The amount of erdogan fans in germany among the turkish people is significantly bigger than in turkey itself (in the last election, 60% of german turkish voted for erdogan). Just lately, there was a big demonstration in cologne where lots of people with turkey flags shouted for death penalty (it was an anti coup demo and it was peaceful, but that is the picture which was transported. you might have heard about it, there was a fuss about erdogan not being allowed to speak via a telescreen there).
The picture the media makes is basically that most turkish are devote erdogan lovers who follow him blindly. That fuels a kinda worrying narrative which is biased.
In my opinion, the best possible way to proceed is to draw red lines with consequences (like breaking up any EU membership chances if death penalty is installed and breaking up talks about the free travel agreement if further aggressions or breaks of prior agreements happen) but generally just let Erdogan calm down for now.
I see erdogan as a deeply paranoid man who now reacts to a legitimate fear of losing his power.
He has to be shown what the limits are, but fueling anti turkey tendencies is not going to help anyone.
